What makes a Rifle accurate?


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Zerstoerer
February 21, 2006, 01:17 AM
Gentlemen,
An invitation to a philosophical discussion:

What make a rifle accurate?
How can a company like Tikka promise a 1 group at 100 yards right out of the box, and Weatherby with the Vanguard a group of 1.5 inches?
Both for rifles in the $500-$600 price range.

Or, how can other manufacturers like Ruger, Winchester and Remington NOT offer a similar guarantee?
If you go through the effort of making a rifle why not making sure it will actually be able to hit something?
Is it all up to tolerances and CNC machining or quality control or what?

Thank you for your thoughts.

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Freelance Tax Collector
February 21, 2006, 01:19 AM
Consistency.

Both on the part of the shooter and the rifle.

Consistency.

Srigs
February 21, 2006, 01:34 AM
The shooter then the rifle! Train yourself before buying a better rifle. :cool:

50 Shooter
February 21, 2006, 01:49 AM
Lawyers.:p

Cosmoline
February 21, 2006, 02:05 AM
A better question might be what makes a rifle INaccurate. In its purest form, on paper, a rifle is at its most accurate. As soon as you start including stocks, slings, screws, shooters, sights, sockets, magazines, actions, receivers, etc. and try to put them all together using imperfect machines and imperfect workers and fire them in an imperfect world the little variations add up.

swingset
February 21, 2006, 06:22 AM
If you're not sure what makes a rifle accurate, why not study up on the physics of firearms rather than asking a question about manufacturers and their guarantees? The two have nothing to do with each other.

Accuracy is a recipe. Quality steel, barrel, design, construction, execution, chamber concentricity, caliber, trigger, sights, ammunition, conditions and lastly shooter.

An accurate gun has the recipe right, the innacurate gun has it wrong somewhere.

Zerstoerer
February 22, 2006, 01:15 AM
If you're not sure what makes a rifle accurate, why not study up on the physics of firearms rather than asking a question about manufacturers and their guarantees? The two have nothing to do with each other.

Accuracy is a recipe. Quality steel, barrel, design, construction, execution, chamber concentricity, caliber, trigger, sights, ammunition, conditions and lastly shooter.

An accurate gun has the recipe right, the innacurate gun has it wrong somewhere.

Don't get excited swingset. I wonder how one manufacturer can get the 'recipe' right and others don't. Do they not know or care if their products perform or do they think it does not matter because the customer will not question it?

IV Troop
February 22, 2006, 01:18 AM
Consistency.


Damn, That was going to be my EXACT answer.

colt.45
February 22, 2006, 01:30 AM
[QUOTE=Accuracy is a recipe. Quality steel, barrel, design, construction, execution, chamber concentricity, caliber, trigger, sights, ammunition, conditions and lastly shooter.QUOTE]

you are so wrong in so many ways, and dont get so antsy:D. the shooter comes first, nuff said. steel quality, caliber (and theoretically) triger and sights dont make accuracy.

this is a good question, why can a match ar-15 be as accurate or more accurate than a bolt action?

there are numerous factors that go into the equation, it would be way too expensive for each companie to perfect them all, so they only do a few. savage has good barrels, sako and tikka have good quality control, remington i think is just well rounded:o.

it is mostly barrel harmonics, how well it was chambered, how smooth and uniform the rifling is and how it locks up

swingset
February 22, 2006, 01:40 AM
[QUOTE=Accuracy is a recipe. Quality steel, barrel, design, construction, execution, chamber concentricity, caliber, trigger, sights, ammunition, conditions and lastly shooter.QUOTE]

you are so wrong in so many ways, and dont get so antsy:D. the shooter comes first, nuff said. steel quality, caliber (and theoretically) triger and sights dont make accuracy.


I'm not wrong at all. You're just answering a different question than I am.

The shooter doesn't make a gun accurate. He can't. A gun is accurate (or innacurate) WITHOUT the shooter, which is why when you test one scientifically you put it in a machine rest to eliminate human interaction. Accuracy, as a condition, is a byproduct of that "recipe" I described. Accuracy with a gun is a shooter's skill. They are two entirely different things.

Accuracy WITH a weapon is a good gun, and a good shooter. Accuracy as a mechanical condition BEGINS AND ENDS WITH THE GUN.

USMCRotrHed
February 22, 2006, 03:24 AM
Barrel
Bullets
Bedding

all these lead to consistency. Every movement must be repeatable.

CodeSlinger
February 22, 2006, 05:10 AM
Consistency.

Damn, That was going to be my EXACT answer.

This was also the first thing that crossed my mind, but I've been wondering about something for a while now... What about a dinged crown?

Many (if not all) accuracy gurus proclaim the importance of an unblemished crown, and many have stories of that one stubborn rifle that just wouldn't shoot decent groups until the dinged crown was recut. It's hard to argue with that kind of empirical evidence, and I don't intend to.

But I can guarantee you that that ding isn't moving around from shot to shot. That ding is consistent. Yes, a ding causes an uneven force on the bullet when the bullet exits the muzzle, but I would think it'd have to be a consistently uneven force on every shot.

Thus, I would expect a ding to change POI, but not affect accuracy.

So what gives? What am I missing?

USMCRotrHed
February 22, 2006, 05:52 AM
The ding in the crown causes unever pressure in the bullet leaving the muzzle and this causes the bullet to tumble around its "yaw" axis. Kind of like a knuckle ball pitch in baseball. This yaw may be less if you can guarantee the pressures in the barrel are always the same, which means you have to use the expensive ammo, or very carefully reload each round exactly the same if you are a reloader. But even then some of the pressures will be off just a little and this will cause the bullet to yaw left or right and up or down and all that varies each time the distance varies. Then you have to consider that the wear around the muzzle erodes differently over time around the nick where it would be a uniform wear if the muzzle was undamaged.

redneck2
February 22, 2006, 07:00 AM
go over to http://www.24hourcampfire.com. John Barsness has a rather extensive article that will answer your question

In brief...straight and relatively tight chamber. Ammo seated straight. Consistent bullets. These assume no over-riding external factors

There are external factors like barrel crown, bedding.

The AR is a perfect example of a rifle that should never shoot well, but can get sub 1/2" groups with just a good barrel and good ammo

Rem700SD
February 22, 2006, 09:54 AM
I don't own a weatherby, so I don't wan to criticize them. That said, Here's my speculation...

I'd check to see if weatherby free-floats it's barrels. Secondly, I'd wager weatherbys, at least the magnums, have more "free bore" than a traditional maker. Free bore is the range is the distance the rifle travels before it hits the lands and grooves of the bbl.

Just something to consider.


A note on accuracy and it's trade offs. The most accurate rifle on the planet is worthless if it's not right there in shooting condition when you need it. I'd sacrifice that .5 moa to have a go anywhere, do anything rifle within 300 yds.

pcf
February 22, 2006, 12:08 PM
Or, how can other manufacturers like Ruger, Winchester and Remington NOT offer a similar guarantee?
If you go through the effort of making a rifle why not making sure it will actually be able to hit something?
Is it all up to tolerances and CNC machining or quality control or what?

Thank you for your thoughts.

It's been a while since I've found a factory Winchester, Ruger, Savage, or Remington, that won't shoot sub 1.5" groups, with factory ammo. (Most will shoot sub MOA with factory ammo)

I'll bet you dollars to donuts that if your factory rifle isn't shooting 2MOA off the bench, with factory ammo, it's the shooter, or something that the shooter did to the rifle that's causing the problem.

Biggest things that affects a rifles accuracy:
-The shooter. Sight picture, breath control, trigger control.
-Shoot off a solid bench and solid chair/stool.
-Have a good rest for the forend and stock. (old shot bags half filled with sand, and a rolled up towel are not the best choice)
-A clean barrel and chamber. Oil, grease, dirt, and rust do not belong in your barrel when shooting (the latter never belongs in your barrel).
-Not damaging the rifle when cleaning.
-Quality sights and scope that are properly mounted on the rifle, and properly positioned for the shooter. The shooter should be able to naturally mount the rifle and not adjust his head to look through the sights.
-Properly clean and store rifles after shooting.

Essex County
February 22, 2006, 03:30 PM
to reduce it to basics I believe....Barrel, trigger and sights. In that order.. Essex

CodeSlinger
February 22, 2006, 06:41 PM
The ding in the crown causes unever pressure in the bullet leaving the muzzle and this causes the bullet to tumble around its "yaw" axis. Kind of like a knuckle ball pitch in baseball. This yaw may be less if you can guarantee the pressures in the barrel are always the same, which means you have to use the expensive ammo, or very carefully reload each round exactly the same if you are a reloader. But even then some of the pressures will be off just a little and this will cause the bullet to yaw left or right and up or down and all that varies each time the distance varies. Then you have to consider that the wear around the muzzle erodes differently over time around the nick where it would be a uniform wear if the muzzle was undamaged.

Let me restate that to make sure Im reading the same thing you're saying. ;)

You're saying that if the ammo was consistent enough, to the point where the excess gas released at the muzzle was the same every round, then my prediction would be correct, i.e. shifted poi but still accurate? It's just that ammo can't realistically be that consistent, and a good crown allows a bullet to be unaffected by the variance in ammo?

Put another way: A dinged crown does not harm accuracy, but it magnifies the effects of inconsistent ammo.

That about right?

redneck2
February 22, 2006, 06:50 PM
You guys are missing the whole point

a solid bench or good trigger doesn't make a rifle accurate, it makes it easier to shoot accurately

the answer: good barrel (with good bolt lock-up) and good chamber

excellent bullets seated straight with the proper amount of the right powder

read the article I referred to, and look at the stuff guys do with factory rifles to shoot benchrest

swingset
February 22, 2006, 08:17 PM
the answer: good barrel (with good bolt lock-up) and good chamber

excellent bullets seated straight with the proper amount of the right powder


good barrel doesn't matter if it's not bedded properly, or is the wrong length for the twist (harmonics), or is chambered in a round that's not inherently accurate, or if it's so thin as to wander after 3 shots. Also, bullets no matter how good they are must match the gun's performance, if you shoot a 75gr .224 pill out of a 1/14" twist, it's not going to be accurate.

I go back to my answer - which is "recipe". A good recipe makes accuracy, all the little things, working together, make a rifle accurate. Quality barrel, caliber, action, bedding, loading, prep and consistency.

blackhawk2000
February 22, 2006, 08:34 PM
If you could roll dice the same exact way every time, you would roll the same exact thing every time. It all boils down to repeatability. To roll the dice, you need to hold it exactly the same way every time. Down to the electron width. Same exact throw. Same exact temp. Same wind currents. Same exact velocity, etc. You throw in things like slightly different powder charges, diff wind, diff bolt lockup. As ever slight as these differences may be, POI changes between shots.


Like said above by others: consistancy

JohnKSa
February 22, 2006, 10:49 PM
WARNING! BEFORE reading farther, please read the disclaimer at the end of the post.

Here's my understanding about crowns and why they're important.

When the gas escapes behind and around the bullet, if everything is smooth and there are no dings, it escapes evenly and consistently.

When there are dings or irregularities (on the base of the bullet OR the muzzle) then the gas escape forms eddies around the dings and irregularities.

Those eddies will not be consistent from shot to shot because they are chaotic. Chaotic in the sense that they are mathematically deterministic but yet still not predictable. Chaos in mathematical terms means that while the behavior can be mathematically defined and studied, infinitesimal changes in initial conditions (and I truly mean INFINITESIMAL) cause totally different behavior. Chaos was "discovered" (sort of) when a researcher noted that his computer simulation (using quite simple equations) gave completely different results even though his inputs were the same from one run to the next. It turned out that the very tiny round-off errors in the computer were enough to totally change the behavior of the simulation.

So the small differences in pressure from shot to shot and the other small changes that can't be eliminated between shots will result in the eddies being VERY different from one shot to the next and may cause large differences in the bullets' behavior from one shot to the next.

If the escape is over smooth, consistent surfaces that don't promote eddies, then you avoid the "chaotic" case and those small differences from shot to shot cause only small differences in the bullet's behavior. The gases may start to curl and eddy after they get away from the muzzle, but by then the bullet's too far gone to be affected.

USMCRotrHed
February 23, 2006, 01:53 AM
Let me restate that to make sure Im reading the same thing you're saying. ;)

You're saying that if the ammo was consistent enough, to the point where the excess gas released at the muzzle was the same every round, then my prediction would be correct, i.e. shifted poi but still accurate? It's just that ammo can't realistically be that consistent, and a good crown allows a bullet to be unaffected by the variance in ammo?

Put another way: A dinged crown does not harm accuracy, but it magnifies the effects of inconsistent ammo.

That about right?


That would be one way of looking at it. BUT what I was trying to say was that a dinged crown does affect accuracy, but if you have very consistant ammo, the accuracy would be affected in a predictable way each time. However, and inconsistancy would throw the predictability out the window.

JohnKSa
February 23, 2006, 02:02 AM
WARNING! BEFORE reading farther, please read the disclaimer at the end of the post.if the ammo was consistent enough, to the point where the excess gas released at the muzzle was the same every roundYes, but only if it were EXACTLY the same. Not close. Not infinitesimally close. Not so close that the difference is immeasurable with any known techniques. It would have to be EXACTLY the same--PERFECTLY consistent.

Which is to say that it is impossible. There is no way to have ammo that consistent. If you're asking if making the ammo MORE consistent will decrease the effect, the answer is 'no'. It doesn't work like that. It would have to be PERFECTLY consistent.A dinged crown does not harm accuracy, but it magnifies the effects of inconsistent ammo.Only in the strictest, most idealized sense. THEORETICALLY, your statement is correct. In practice, it is TOTALLY impossible to achieve the consistency (ABSOLUTE PERFECTION) required to make a dinged crown a non-issue.

USMCRotrHed
February 23, 2006, 02:08 AM
The ammunition would have to be exactly the same. Not a real world situation.

You did a much better job of explaining what I was trying to say, partly because it sounds like you have studied that subject more than I. Thanks for your explaination.

rangerruck
February 23, 2006, 02:42 AM
the bbl and the chamber, high grade materials, excellent machinery, skilled workmen. very rigorous testing of the equipment. then i would say the receiver is next. needs to be stiff, through a range of temps. the stiffer the better. a simple way to show this is the ak. fire one with a stamped 1 mm reciever, then fire one with a milled 1.5mm receiver. this one will be noticeably more accurate.
next a good stock, well inletted and bedded if necessary. next is the tirgger, a good crisp trigger is very forgiving. lastly the bullets. now i have two cz 527, one in 223 the other in 76239. the 762 can take crap ammo such as silver bear, and wolf, and jsc, all russian, and with an old 3x9 scope shoots all three under 1 in at 100 yards. my 223 with a couple diff rounds is a one hole punch at 100 yds. especially with win 45 grn varmint.
cz makes a fantastic bbl. and the trigger is a set trigger, which you can adjust down to hiccup fire.
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a284/pmullineaux/a2c683dc.jpg
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a284/pmullineaux/53557d05.jpg
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a284/pmullineaux/czpics031.jpg
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a284/pmullineaux/czpics016.jpg
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a284/pmullineaux/czpics015.jpgthese were all shot at 100 yds, in one day, about 1 min between shots. ther were also amny more bullets and targets shot, just like showing these, they show a good range of diff between bullet mfgrs.
i was a decent shot while in the army, and usually fired expert, especially with the a2's, but im not this good. i have to chalk it up to the equipment.

pete f
February 23, 2006, 03:06 AM
First off

Ammunition is the greatest variable if one removes the shooter.
Bullets spin at high rates of speed and any variation from concentric will throw the shot. uneven powder loads, inconsistent primer seating, bullet pull, neck length in the chamber. uneven fits in the chamber, ALL will contribute to an inaccurate rifle.

I have a model 722 Remington in .308. my grandfather bought it in early 1952 in the box with it was a few boxes of old cartridges and a couple of targets, the best of the targets is a 1 3/8'' group and he circled and wrote on the paper about how good it was to have such an accurate rifle finally. Two years ago i took that same rifle out finally and shot it. I had pulled the scope off another rifle and mounted the 4 X14 Leupold VX2 on the 722 and went to the range. My best group with the old ammo was 1 1/2" switched to new remington 165 gr and i was able to get 1'' with the next three groups, one five shot group of federal Gold Medal match 168 gr got down to about a 3/4 inch group. one last five shot group of old ammo, 150 sp pt 1 3/4".

a better shooter on a good day might get that gun to shoot 1/2 -5/8 " groups with the GMM. only change was ammo.

A good barrel counts too. but less than i thought. I bought a model 99 in 30-30 a few years ago as a project it is a take down model and i was thinking about having the bore redone. maybe to a 375 win...the original bore looked like it was a gravel road. pits, hardly any rifling left, just ugly, but the gun was purttty so i had to buy it. I tried a five shot group at fifty yards and it was dime sized, I tried five more and the first three looked really good, spread out about an inch or so. next one was a good three inches high and I knew I had not pulled it. load the last one and it goes 6 inches right and even higher. hmMMMMM i think. i pull off the forearm and drop the lever and uscrew the barrel and it glows a golden yellow sheen. the barrel is stripping copper so bad it looks like a plated bore. those last two bullets must have been 270's by the time they left the barrel. A guy at the range has some kind of electric copper remover using electrolysis. He takes the barrel and says i will get it next saturday clean as a whistle. so I figure he will save me hours of patching and scrubbing the bore. The next week I get there and he hands me the barrel and says it took two days on the "wire" as he calls it to get it clean. I put it together run down the path to the 50 yard range, first five in a bottle cap, next five look almost as good. Then i pull the barrel off and it is as bad as it was before the trip to the electrical doo dad. I have tried to fire lap that barrel and every thing, nothing works, just have to wait till i get time to ship it out and get made into a .38-55 or 375 win. BUT the first five to ten shots will be in a tiny group. Whats the point? That rifle has a good lockup, a good chamber and it had a great bore, but for now it is only good for 5 to 7 shots.

CodeSlinger
February 23, 2006, 03:13 AM
Only in the strictest, most idealized sense. THEORETICALLY, your statement is correct. In practice, it is TOTALLY impossible to achieve the consistency (ABSOLUTE PERFECTION) required to make a dinged crown a non-issue.

Yes, that strictly idealized sense was what I was referring to, though I did not use the terminology as specific as you. Definitely a purely theoretical issue, with no practical application, but thank you for pursuing it with me. :D

Nematocyst
February 23, 2006, 04:46 AM
Ah, yet another interesting argument...er, discussion on THR. These are what keep me here.

Glad to see others besides me arguing the importance of tiny differences in starting conditions for the outcome. Oh, yeah, you're singing my song.

This is a relevant thread for me for the following reason.

I'm approaching a time when I will by a bolt action "deer rifle". It's still a month or two away.

From discussions on other threads (and some other research), I've already decided the caliber: 7mm08. That's set in stone.

What I haven't decided yet is which rifle.

I want a synthetic stock & stainless barrel (note my location), and a 22" barrel for ease of carry in mountains (Cascades).

But am having trouble finding exactly the right rifle with exactly that combination in my price range. (Close to or less than $1000 with a Leupold VX-II scope.)

Top contenders at the moment are (in no particular order):

Remington 700 SPS: stainless, synthetic, 24" barrel
Remington 700 Mountain LSS: stainless, laminated stock, 22" barrel
Tikka T3 lite stainless: stainless barrel, 22", synthetic

(Yes, I've considered Savage, but the fore end doesn't work for me. Browning is not in my price range at this time.)

Tikka comes with that out of box guarantee of 1" @ 100 yds. But I"m not fond of the expensive plastic magazine that is reportedly easily lost. I also question parts availability a decade down the road.

Remington 700 SPS is synthetic furniture, and has a longer barrel (which should improve accuracy), and a thicker barrel (see below), but I'm not convinced of its accuracy. (Remington's own web based description is less than spectacular compared with the next one...)

Rem 700 Mountain LSS lacks the synth stock, and reportedly has a 'thinner' barrel (similar to the Model 7) that may negatively affect the issue of this thread (accuracy) as it heats up with repeated shots. However, reading the Remington website, it seems as if they pay more attention to those (ostensibly important) details in design of this rifle that could affect accuracy.

Comments?

Reading with interest.

Nem

rangerruck
February 23, 2006, 07:56 PM
i think cz makes a 7.08 i like the idea of the tikka, also you may want to check out howa, last but not least ruger looks pretty good.

JohnKSa
February 24, 2006, 12:22 AM
When anything moves, it needs to move smoothly and if it is part of the gun, it needs to move easily and go back into exactly the same position each time after moving. The size, weight, speed and travel of moving parts should be minimized to make this easier.

Where a part remains stationary, it needs to be firmly held in place.

Where a part can't be stopped from vibrating, it needs to vibrate in a "non-chaotic"* manner and the vibration should be minimized.

Where there is gas moving, it needs to move over smooth surfaces so that turbulence (eddies/chaotic* movements) are minimized or eliminated--and when it escapes, it needs to escape evenly.

The gun should be designed, manufactured, and finished so as to minimize both fouling buildup in the action and barrel and the effects of fouling buildup.

The gun should be designed and manufactured to minimize both heat buildup and the effects of heat buildup on the system.

*Non-chaotic systems tend to consistently vibrate at a particular frequency or frequencies when an impulse is applied. You can think of an impulse as what happens when a shot is fired.

Chaotic systems aren't that predictable. They may vibrate at one frequency one time and another frequency the next. Or they may vibrate at one set of frequencies one time and another set of frequencies the next time.

The best illustration I can think of is comparing the ringing sound (non-chaotic) you get from thumping a glass vs the buzzing, thunking sound (chaotic) you get when you thump a cracked glass.

gbran
February 24, 2006, 01:35 AM
I have a cheap Savage '06 I bought for hunting. It is bedded, the barrel floated and has an adjustable trigger (Accutrigger), all from the factory. I am amazed at it's accuracy (or my ability to shoot it accurately).

My most accurate rifle is my Thompson Contender G2. I have 3 barrels for it, 17m2, .223 and the 6.8 Rem SPC. The .223 barrel groups 45 gr varmint factory loads consistently sub moa. Don't want to be accused of lying, so I won't tell how much sub moa. BTW, I'm not a lousy shot, but I'm no expert marksman. The only thing I've done to the TC was a trigger job.

I'm of the opinion that a good and accurate rifle can make a mediocre shooter look good.

rangerruck
February 25, 2006, 04:32 AM
i totally believe you gbran, the reason i didn't include bullets so much in this discussion, is that we are talking about what makes a rifle accurate? you can tell through various computers, mri , program synthesis, photocell hispeed photos, electron resistance,heat deviation, etc., and the like , if a rifle is acc or not , without ever fireing one bullet through the thing~
in other words , just by statistical guessing, if i say we have two companies here, one of which cold pour, chrome lines, hammer forges, cryo-treats their bbls, and the other company does not, we can make an assumption the first company probably has a more acc bbl than the other, without fireing a bullet.

FatalMove
February 25, 2006, 10:22 PM
I guess i look at the target with a different set of eyes. Lets just say that the target is 10 x 10 Man or beast. if i my target is the middle of the 10X10 boiler room of the man or beast. if my rifle shoots 1moa or 2moa i will be at worst 1 or 2 inches left or right or high or low 1 moa or 2 moa. Be still be within the 10x10 lung area or boiler room. So Man or Beast is still stone cold dead. I realize that 2 moa rifle progressively gets off the further you get from the target. like lets say 600 yards. but then ill just sneak in closer. The majority of people, civilians i mean,dont have a place to shoot 1000 yards let alone the skills to pull it off. Im in Tennessee and im lucky to find a range to shoot 100! But i know my rifle can shoot to 300yards. I do it every year starting Nov. 19 at the whitetails. In the woods here most shots are less than 100 yards. Guess i dont strive for perfection like you other guys. I still give you the utmost respect as you strive for perfection. But Dead is Dead 1moa or 2 moa with the AR-10 by the HILLBILLY. :D

FataL][V][ove

strambo
February 26, 2006, 12:04 AM
Factory guarantees have much more to do with marketing than the accuracy of the rifles. Ironically, you mention Weatherby. The majority of their econo rifles did shoot MOA or better. This year they decided to take advantage of that fact and market all the ones with 3/4" test targets or better as "Sub-MOA" and charge a premium for them.

When I bought my Winchester Laredo (300 WM long range hunting model) there was no specified accuracy guarantee. There was an implied guarantee that a rifle with a free floating heavy barrel, rigid stock and pillar bedded action, backed by the Winchester name would perform in a manner consistent with it's design features. I never thought to care they did not guarantee it to be MOA, I knew it would be, or something would be wrong. It has shot between .44" and .75" with my handloads and .93" with Federal Premium hunting ammo. Exactly as I expected, a little better in fact.

As others mentioned, consistency is key. A smaller company, producing less rifles can better control things and guarantee more accuracy. I'd expect less from a Winchester/Remington mass produced hunting model then from a smaller outfit, all else being equal. As long as the rifle performs as expected for the type of rifle it is, that's all that matters. It wouldn't bother me if a light weight M700 hunting rifle only shot 1.5" groups. I bet many do better then that anyway though.

Nematocyst
February 26, 2006, 01:12 AM
Factory guarantees have much more to do with marketing than the accuracy of the rifles. Ya know, I agree.

In an age dominated by 'market forces', one must trust one's gut level feelings, tempered, of course, by research on THR & other trusted sources.

Tikka 'guarantees' MOA. May be true, indeed.

But all that plastic ... just ... doesn't feel right.

Not exactly the guarantee I'm looking for.

OTOH, Browning, afaict, doesn't guarantee MOA.

But my senses, including that 6th sense, says, 'this (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=185159) is a quality rifle'.

Hmm. Maybe I'll buy one.

Nem

travis301
February 27, 2006, 10:09 PM
An accurate rifle? Just remember this.In my dealings with rifles,(internet,gun shows,classifieds,etc.),I have bought a lot of guns "that would shoot good",but had to turn around and sell a lot of guns that would only shoot OK.Point is that you hear a lot of hype and new ideas,exotic new calibers,new fads,etc.Stick to your time proven actions and calibers.My best success has come from earlier model 700's.Mainly in calibers such as the .222,.222mag,6mm,25-06.My .02.
Travis

orangeninja
February 28, 2006, 12:27 AM
What makes a rifle accurate? Why, me of course.:evil:

I don't have a serious response...sorry.:rolleyes:

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