What countrys use 7.62x51mm Battle rifles


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Brother in Arms
February 21, 2006, 05:30 PM
Hey everyone
Seems that the topic of M14's and other battle rifles always comes up. Also many countrys are supposed to be using 5.56X45mm rifles by now. Anyway I was looking at military pictures from around the world and it made me wonder how many countries still use 7.62X51mm battle rifles. Here is what I found so far.

Mexico ,G3A3 rifle copy
Norway,G3A3 rifle copy
Kenya, G3A3 rifle copy
Pakistan,G3A3 rifle copy
Turkey,G3A3 rifle copy

I am interested in countries where a 7.62x51mm battle rifle is PRIMARY rifle of the country.

Thanks

Brother in Arms

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mp510
February 21, 2006, 08:00 PM
The pictures of the Iranian Soldiers that I see on the news look like they are carrying G-3's.

Limeyfellow
February 21, 2006, 09:07 PM
The pictures of the Iranian Soldiers that I see on TV look like they are carrying G-3's.

Iran have a license to make G3s for its military. They also use ak47 variants and a number of other rifles.

ghost squire
February 21, 2006, 09:44 PM
Most countries hanging on to them are doing so because it would be too costly to switch I think. G3s are cheap to make compared to FALs which is why you won't see many countries still using it.

As to the whole 7.62 thing its cheaper to train troops to both spray and pray and to shoot accurately with 5.56, depending on the countries budget, which is why you don't see to many 7.62s period.

Its a beancounters game man.

Bridger
February 21, 2006, 11:10 PM
Brazil uses FALs I believe.

ROBO4642
February 21, 2006, 11:25 PM
I have an Argentine FSL that was manufactured for their police force. I dont know if they still use them though mine is pre 89.

colt.45
February 22, 2006, 12:35 AM
i think most of NATO was using fal's for a while until they swiched to the m-16

Number 6
February 22, 2006, 01:01 AM
When I was in Rwanda I saw a lot of the private security guards carrying FALs, while almost all of the military forces I saw were carrying AKs.

otomik
February 22, 2006, 03:24 AM
when i saw in India I saw mostly FN FAL rifles in the hands of the military, but also a few new INSAS rifles around the airport (soldiers in pillboxes behind sandbags at Indira Gandhi international).

steveracer
February 22, 2006, 07:11 AM
I'm acive duty Navy, and I see more M-14s than any other long arm. I shoot one about once a month, and inventory them frequently. We had 19 of them on my ship, and only ten shotguns, and no other long arms. As far as I know, they ADDED M-14s since I left, and got rid of a couple of the 870s in favor of the 590 (Aluminum rusts less, and therefore the Mossy is preferred by many ship captains)
So, to answer your question: We the people of the United States of America, in order to form a more perfect Union, put M-14s in the hands of sailors who needed them, and .308 in their magazines.

Brother in Arms
February 22, 2006, 10:42 AM
Good Point Steve the U.S. Navy's standard rifle is the M14. I was going to add them to the list. The Navy is unique in that way. I guess sailors in subs use the M16 but I think thats about it. I have two freinds in the Navy and they both said they used M14's. Also one of them said his ship has mossberg 500's on board. The other one said his ship still had a few M1's but mostly for Parade purposes.

I think who evere said cost was a reason you don't see so many FAL's is right on the money. Now a days you mostly see surplused ones in Africa and some in south America. I think Argentina might still use the FAL.

Thanks everyone keep the Data coming.

Brother in Arms

steveracer
February 22, 2006, 12:21 PM
I was invited to a German Rifle match in Kiel about a year ago, and we shot both G-3s and .22lr converted G-3s. Tough guns to shoot well, as the triggers sucked pretty bad compared to our M-14s. Naturally, we couldn't bring our weapons.
So, add them to your list.

Chipperman
February 22, 2006, 12:26 PM
Are the current U.S Navy M14s select fire, or are they converted to semi only?

itgoesboom
February 22, 2006, 12:59 PM
Sweden's Home Guard still uses the AK-4 (Licensed G-3), but the rest of their armed forces use the AK-5 (FNC, 5.56).

Intresting that most of the countries that still use 7.62nato use G-3 rifles.

I.G.B.

ghost squire
February 22, 2006, 01:48 PM
As I said it is primarily because the HK is much cheaper.

High Planes Drifter
February 22, 2006, 04:36 PM
I am pretty sure the Republic of South Africa still uses FAL's. There are many other nations that use M14's around the world purchased from our government. I saw a documentary not very long ago on the African genocide problem; troops trying to keep the peace were carrying M1's Garand's.

No_Brakes23
February 22, 2006, 04:49 PM
I'm acive duty Navy, and I see more M-14s than any other long arm. I shoot one about once a month, and inventory them frequently. We had 19 of them on my ship, and only ten shotguns, and no other long arms. As far as I know, they ADDED M-14s since I left, and got rid of a couple of the 870s in favor of the 590 (Aluminum rusts less, and therefore the Mossy is preferred by many ship captains)
So, to answer your question: We the people of the United States of America, in order to form a more perfect Union, put M-14s in the hands of sailors who needed them, and .308 in their magazines. The OP Specifically asked which nations use a .308 for their primary rifle. While the Navy does use the M14 for Force Protection/Ship's Defense, the M16A2 is still the standard service rifle of U.S. Armed forces.

The Navy is unique in that way. I guess sailors in subs use the M16 but I think thats about it. Also one of them said his ship has mossberg 500's on board. M16A3s are also used for Force Protection as are Mossberg 500 shotguns. As a Marine Aviation Ordnanceman aboard the U.S.S. John C. Stennis CVN-74, I was tasked with assisting with Ship's Defense. We were issued Mossbergs, M14s or M16A3s, (Made by FN,) and sometimes an M9 pistol. In the interests of time, some of us Marines were given the M16A3 instead of the M14, because we were all intimately familiar with the M16. The M14 required familiarization for Navy and Marine, but we were already spooled up on the M16.

(BTW, to avoid confusion the M16A3 is not a flat-top M16A2, it is essentially an M16A2 made by FN with a full auto position as opposed to Colt's 3 round burst on the M16A2. I believe only the Navy bought them.)

Brother in Arms
February 22, 2006, 05:24 PM
Interesting post no brakes

South Africa used to the use the FAL (R1)then replaced it with the R4 (Galil varaint) Now im not sure what they use.

Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania got many M14 from US. Also Many of the Carribean Nations use FAL variants. I believe Ethiopia also got many M14 from us. I actually saw pics of there UN soldiers in the first gulf war carrying them.

Perhaps I should do some more research.

Thanks
Brother in Arms

mp510
February 23, 2006, 04:52 PM
The OP Specifically asked which nations use a .308 for their primary rifle. While the Navy does use the M14 for Force Protection/Ship's Defense, the M16A2 is still the standard service rifle of U.S. Armed forces.

M16A3s are also used for Force Protection as are Mossberg 500 shotguns. As a Marine Aviation Ordnanceman aboard the U.S.S. John C. Stennis CVN-74, I was tasked with assisting with Ship's Defense. We were issued Mossbergs, M14s or M16A3s, (Made by FN,) and sometimes an M9 pistol. In the interests of time, some of us Marines were given the M16A3 instead of the M14, because we were all intimately familiar with the M16. The M14 required familiarization for Navy and Marine, but we were already spooled up on the M16.

(BTW, to avoid confusion the M16A3 is not a flat-top M16A2, it is essentially an M16A2 made by FN with a full auto position as opposed to Colt's 3 round burst on the M16A2. I believe only the Navy bought them.)


The flat top is the M16A4.

Raygun
February 23, 2006, 10:50 PM
From what I understand, as far as US military type classification goes, both the M16A3 and M16A4 are flat tops. The A3 has a full-auto trigger group whereas the A4 is burst-limited like the A2.

Brother in Arms
February 23, 2006, 11:03 PM
I think you are correct Raygun
However, what about contries using 7.62nato battle rifles????

Brother in Arms

KriegHund
February 23, 2006, 11:08 PM
I thought the marines used the A4 and the army the A2.

steveracer
February 24, 2006, 08:38 AM
But a very few of them (with beautiful birch stocks) are full auto. We call these "red tag" guns due to the inherent dangers of putting a full-auto weapon in the hands of someone trained on a semi only.

Crosshair
February 24, 2006, 03:44 PM
India still issues the Enfield 2A. While a bolt action, it is still a battle rifle. The action is so smooth and quick that it is almost as fast as a semi-auto gun. I own one and I love it. Only problem is that the sights suck. (Want to put a scope or something on it.)

Coronach
February 24, 2006, 03:50 PM
Be advised, the term "battle rifle" has no more official meaning than the term "assault weapon", perhaps even less.

Mike

MSGT9410
February 24, 2006, 04:34 PM
Just out of curiosity, what is the US Navy's reasoning behind issuing M-14s over the M16 and its variants, as seen with the other branches of the US Military?

The Real Hawkeye
February 24, 2006, 05:13 PM
At sea, ranges are more often much farther than on land, which would indicate the need for a longer range weapon. That's my guess.

KriegHund
February 24, 2006, 05:14 PM
Things would have to be pretty bad for that need to come in.

The Real Hawkeye
February 24, 2006, 05:19 PM
Oh? Well how about this. Your unit is on a ship to shore boat, and pirates with AK 47s open fire from another boat, or from shore, 500 yards away. Do you think a rifle with a 600 plus yard range would be handy, or would you rather have a poodle shooter?

Pafrmu
February 24, 2006, 06:47 PM
I would rather use the .50 cal mounted on the side of the ship.:)

Crosshair
February 24, 2006, 08:48 PM
My Co-Worker got to play with the 50 cals when he was in the Navy. Apparently you CAN hunt seagull with a 50 but there will be little, if anything, left.:eek: Then they would plink at trash that they threw overboard with the M-60s.

No_Brakes23
February 24, 2006, 10:01 PM
When I was ship's defense we were told that the Navy used the M14s because they were in inventory and because of the range and punch.

But if a hostile boat approaches, they also have the option of shooting with the .50s, (In Port or when anchored,) or the CIWS. Amphibs also have a 25mm cannons. We were told that unless "Release Batteries" was sounded over the radio, we were not to fire. We were also told that we would know when to fire because "A hellacious noise is going to be coming from the direction of the .50."

The reason they don't use the M16A* rifles is probably because they no longer recieve any M16 training in boot camp, (Usually they shoot the M9 instead.) Even back in 1996, the Nayv was having them shoot .22LR chambered ARs.

ghost squire
February 25, 2006, 12:49 AM
Oh? Well how about this. Your unit is on a ship to shore boat, and pirates with AK 47s open fire from another boat, or from shore, 500 yards away. Do you think a rifle with a 600 plus yard range would be handy, or would you rather have a poodle shooter?

Deck.

Guns.

Crosshair
February 25, 2006, 02:20 AM
How long does it take to get the 5" deck gun on a destroyer ready to fire? I'm sure you have to start it up, load it, enter the targeting data and get it pointed at the target. (I have no idea how long this takes.) Then there is the problem of hitting a small target that is moving and may or may not be taken out by a near miss. (Not that it is going to be any easier for you to hit them in the boat.) What happens if the bow of the ship is facing away and the 5" can't be brought to bear on the enemy target, then what?

steveracer
February 25, 2006, 11:12 AM
I'm at a Fleet Command, (COMSECONDFLT) and we handle most of these questions in-house, so maybe I can help.
M-14s are in the inventory and we order new ones all the time. All of the new ones we get are Semi-auto only.
The only time a ship's force is using an M-14 is when NOT out in the open ocean. Our typical littoral defense is a helicopter airborne, and small boats wherever we can use them.
Most destroyers and cruisers now have the GE M134 7.62 minigun, which is infinitely more effective than either an M-60 or M-14. These are used when transiting tight spots, like the Suez canal, or the straits of Gibraltar. We also have .50 cal M-2s on deck, and the occaisonal 20mm cannon.
CIWS can be operated remotely by manual control, and would make any small boat threat totally disappear.
The 5" gun, although a very good weapon, is really designed for open ocean fighting, or NSFS operations (think artillery)
Our best bet, when tied to a pier, is to have a very mobile fight stopper in the hands of as many people as possible. That means M-14s, and small boats with M-60s.
These use the same round (7.62x51mm) which makes good sense. If I'm on watch on any ship anywhere in the world, and the Force Protection Officer gives me a choice of weapon to carry around, I immediately say M-14. Try stopping a truck with a Beretta.
The other thing is, a squid with an M-14 can go anywhere on the ship or pier that he is needed. Not as easy with an M-60. These are better fight stoppers, but not as mobile.
Now, the minigun, M-60, and M-14 all use the same ammo, so why make things difficult for the Ordinance Officer by adding 5.56?
That's why we use them.
Questions?

The Real Hawkeye
February 25, 2006, 11:55 AM
That makes sense to me, but the 7.62 NATO is also a better round by far than the 5.56mm.

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