Homeland Security using Hi Point Carbine?


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hkmp5g17
February 22, 2006, 07:07 PM
According to GUNS magazine!

Also used by

Texas Dept of Prisons

and Tampa PD

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Ohen Cepel
February 22, 2006, 07:12 PM
Won't say it's not true. However, I haven't seen any.

Maybe for training of some sort.

Also, remember, just because they bought one for a display or mock-up it doesn't mean that they actually "use" them.

KriegHund
February 22, 2006, 07:16 PM
Why use a high point when you have acces to MP-5's, UMP's, P90's....

perpster
February 22, 2006, 07:22 PM
Link, please.

hkmp5g17
February 22, 2006, 07:25 PM
I agree on the DHS- the article says trhe Tampa PD bought a bunch of them for cruisers and that the Texas Dept of Prisons uses them to deter escapees.

Article was by Jack Lewis if I recall.

He agreed with us that it's not in the same league (as far as fit/finish) as the AR, MP5, etc- but that it's a decent rifle and a good choice for those who can't afford the above firearms.

Correia
February 22, 2006, 07:25 PM
I'm friends with a few DHS guys. I'm having a real hard time buying this. It is possible that one was put on a DHS credit card for some reason at some time, but as far as being in actual use? I doubt it.

ReadyontheRight
February 22, 2006, 07:26 PM
Why use a high point when you have acces to MP-5's, UMP's, P90's....


To save the taxpayers money?:evil: :p :D :scrutiny:

KriegHund
February 22, 2006, 07:28 PM
To save the taxpayers money?:evil: :p :D :scrutiny:

Now now, theres an even bigger why...

I can see prison guards using em. Some use the Mini-14. (I remember seeing on a history channel documentary about prisons. I was saddened, as it was in somewhat poor shape :( all scratched and dinged )

hkmp5g17
February 22, 2006, 07:35 PM
Link, please.


Sorry- no link yet.

I saw the magazine article today in the downtown Colorado Springs library.

hkmp5g17
February 22, 2006, 07:36 PM
I'm friends with a few DHS guys. I'm having a real hard time buying this. It is possible that one was put on a DHS credit card for some reason at some time, but as far as being in actual use? I doubt it.


I'm having a hard time believing it too!

Anthony

swingset
February 22, 2006, 08:12 PM
Our local Sherriff's deputies all carry them. A few come out to my range to train, and I have talked to them alot about their carbines. They all said they were skeptical about them but they've run great and work as advertised.

They said they've only broken one, and it was because of a squib/obstruction. Bulged the barrel, but that was it.

Theirs are, however, some sort of "improved" model from Hi-Point. I can't recall what they said the changes were....but I think Hi-Point sells a beefed up model to LEO's or that's the impression I got.

ArmedBear
February 22, 2006, 08:15 PM
It seems like they'd work for these applications, where they are seldom fired and not used as accurate long-range rifles. Why not?

1 old 0311
February 22, 2006, 09:58 PM
They would be at the bottom of my list, but I got to admit the damn things are reliable.

Kevin

444
February 22, 2006, 10:31 PM
I don't have any problem believing it at all.
They would work fine.

No, it wouldn't be my first choice either, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't work fine.

Doug S
February 22, 2006, 10:46 PM
I'd like to read the article. I recently picked up a Hi-Point carbine expecting it to be a piece of junk. It is a pretty nice carbine though. I've only put 100 rounds through it, but they were 100 malfunction free rounds.

Correia
February 23, 2006, 11:46 AM
I just know that the DHS ICE teams work with really good equipment. Including very nice M4 and precision AR variants from well known manufacturers. I can see some being bought, but being used as an issue weapon, I just can't imagine where. No bash on the highpoint, but I don't see the equipment guys buying these in any sort of number. The ICE pistol trials (that the Sig DAK won) were the most scientific and in depth pistol trials ever held for any law enforcement agency, ever. These guys don't just buy issue guns for the heck of it. I can imagine some team, somewhere bought some, for some reason, but they aren't a general use item at all.

walking arsenal
February 23, 2006, 01:18 PM
I do odds and ends sales for a local gunshop. Mostly shows and such. Anyway, one of the guys that works there has a hi-point carbine. He bought it to see if he could break it. He's a 3000 rounds now without cleaning except the barrel. Still ticks, must be somthing to them.

Mikee Loxxer
February 23, 2006, 02:02 PM
Accurate yes. Fun maybe. I know for a fact that the firing pin on mine broke after about 700 rounds. Others here have indicated that theirs have fired thousands of rounds with no problems. Personally I wouldn't trust my life to one, my life is worth more than saving a few hundred bucks.

.45FMJoe
February 23, 2006, 03:03 PM
TPD did not buy them for their officers, TPD mearly allowed their officers to purchase them on their own and carry them in their cruisers. The only other option for TPD officers are Colt AR-15s in 9mm. You can see why those who choose to carry a carbine chose the Hi-Point ($). I am friends with 2 TPD officers, 1 detective and 1 sergeant...I get allllll the dirt on what happens in the department. :rolleyes: In fact, I am currently in possession of one of the officer's Hi Points.

That being said, the reason I am still in possession of said carbine is he bought it and gave it to me to "break in", sight-in and thoroughly clean and prep for trunk duty. :D However, his particular rifle is the biggest P.O.S. I have ever had the displeasure of firing. It will not fire a complete magazine without an FTF. It loves to stovepipe. I checked the magazines (which appear to be of horrid quality) and all three are differently shaped at the top. Poor manufacturing I assume....or it just doesn't like Wally World WWB and Federal American Eagle ammo?

Now, however, Tampa has a new Chief of Police and he has authorized Colt Ar-15s chambered in .223/5.56. So I'm off to sell my friend's rifle at the next gun show and he is going to carry his Colt 16" LE HBAR Carbine. Score one for the good guys.

mp510
February 23, 2006, 05:31 PM
.45FMJoe,
I have the same experience with the hi-point 995 carbine. I got mine a while ago
(it cost way over msrp), and the dealer told me that it was very reliable (he never saw one jam) and accurate. With every ammo I tried (Winchester, UMC, Remington (makes UMC), Olympic, Bosnian Ammo (commercial stuff), Norinco, Geco, factory reloads (WC) I got the same result. I can rarely get through a plate run without ity jamming and nearly never an entire magazine. I have two mags, both work like crap. Accuracy is pretty good, but it doesn't shoot so who cares. The stock screws constantly need to be tightened as does the bolt handle (almost fell off during a shoot once). I do like the fit of the gun, and it 'swings' fast. For one shot, it would be a great gun, but beyond that (esp. when starting from a full mag) I don't trust it. :cuss: :cuss: :fire: :banghead: :cuss:

swingset
February 23, 2006, 05:41 PM
That being said, the reason I am still in possession of said carbine is he bought it and gave it to me to "break in", sight-in and thoroughly clean and prep for trunk duty. :D However, his particular rifle is the biggest P.O.S. I have ever had the displeasure of firing. It will not fire a complete magazine without an FTF. It loves to stovepipe. I checked the magazines (which appear to be of horrid quality) and all three are differently shaped at the top. Poor manufacturing I assume....or it just doesn't like Wally World WWB and Federal American Eagle ammo?

Now, however, Tampa has a new Chief of Police and he has authorized Colt Ar-15s chambered in .223/5.56. So I'm off to sell my friend's rifle at the next gun show and he is going to carry his Colt 16" LE HBAR Carbine. Score one for the good guys.

Just to drive a point home, the Hi-Point you're having trouble with has a no-BS, no questions asked lifetime warranty, even if you're the 10th owner of the gun, so I would suggest the officer send it back to Hi-Point ASAP....no use messing around with a gun that won't run. I know the one my local sherriff KB'd was replaced within a couple of weeks, no hassle at all.

That No-BS lifetime warranty? Colt has no such thing.

Not trying to compare the quality of a Colt AR to the Hi-Point, just illustrating that there is something to be said for the cheap little carbine, and something lacking in Colt's customer service....and Colt as a company.

dracphelan
February 23, 2006, 06:04 PM
As others have said, if you are having problems with your High Point, call up the manufacturer (1-877-425-4867) and ask for an RMA.
I bought a non-working carbine for $60. Set up an RMA and got back a completely rebuilt carbine with new furniture and magazines.

355sigfan
February 23, 2006, 07:37 PM
That No-BS lifetime warranty? Colt has no such thing.

Not trying to compare the quality of a Colt AR to the Hi-Point, just illustrating that there is something to be said for the cheap little carbine, and something lacking in Colt's customer service....and Colt as a company.


With Colt you don't need a no bs lifetime warranty because they don't shatter when you drop them. Their built military tough. Hi Point can afford the warranty because each copy is like $20 for them to make. Most people don't shoot enough to notice the flaws with this weapon. A co working dropped a high point pistol when he was hiking and its slide shattered. It was a long drop but Glocks were dropped over 200 feet with not ill effects. The Hi Point's pot metal shattered. Their POS saturday night specials.
Pat

KriegHund
February 23, 2006, 07:43 PM
Yes, and all gun owners are like timothy mcveigh, and all arabs are like the 9/11 hijackers.

tg_26101
February 23, 2006, 08:45 PM
Several local officers bought these, because of the price. They were bought directly from Hi-Point on an LE purchase plan, and included a laser, muzzle brake, red dot sight, case, buttstock mag holders, (I believe) 5 mags, and sling. I don't know if these are hand selected if bought directly on an LE purchase, but all have run well. I have one from this purchase, and it's done an excellent job. I won't tell you the cost on an open forum, but if Hi-Point is contacted directly on an LE purchase, the price is VERY attractive, particularly considering all the extras it comes with.

I personally know of one that is over 3000 rounds without malfunction, and hasn't been cleaned. The owner is trying to see how far it will go before falling apart. This particular carbine went to the WV State Police Academy rifle course, and fired 1000 rounds in a week without failure. The owner was laughed at the beginning of the week, but after the other carbines and rifles quit running, the little Hi-Point earned some respect. The ammo used has all been Federal American Eagle 115FMJ and Federal 124 gr Hydra-shok (although I've run a fair amount of Gold Dot +P through mine as well). Stay away from Bosnian, Chinese, Russian, UMC, junk ammo, and your probability of success will go way up.

I think a lot of the bashing done here is by folks without personal experience. Yeah, I have AR's and other higher dollar rifles/carbines, and the quality is higher. The Hi-Point is a case, though, where you get a lot more than you pay for. If I didn't have a lot of bucks to spend, I could do a lot worse for a defense carbine.

mp510
February 23, 2006, 10:03 PM
Several local officers bought these, because of the price. They were bought directly from Hi-Point on an LE purchase plan, and included a laser, muzzle brake, red dot sight, case, buttstock mag holders, (I believe) 5 mags, and sling. I don't know if these are hand selected if bought directly on an LE purchase, but all have run well. I have one from this purchase, and it's done an excellent job. I won't tell you the cost on an open forum, but if Hi-Point is contacted directly on an LE purchase, the price is VERY attractive, particularly considering all the extras it comes with.

I personally know of one that is over 3000 rounds without malfunction, and hasn't been cleaned. The owner is trying to see how far it will go before falling apart. This particular carbine went to the WV State Police Academy rifle course, and fired 1000 rounds in a week without failure. The owner was laughed at the beginning of the week, but after the other carbines and rifles quit running, the little Hi-Point earned some respect. The ammo used has all been Federal American Eagle 115FMJ and Federal 124 gr Hydra-shok (although I've run a fair amount of Gold Dot +P through mine as well). Stay away from Bosnian, Chinese, Russian, UMC, junk ammo, and your probability of success will go way up.

I think a lot of the bashing done here is by folks without personal experience. Yeah, I have AR's and other higher dollar rifles/carbines, and the quality is higher. The Hi-Point is a case, though, where you get a lot more than you pay for. If I didn't have a lot of bucks to spend, I could do a lot worse for a defense carbine.

From the factory, every hi-point comes with a sling, 1 magazine, and the scope rail. They include a catalog from which to buy the myzzle break, laser, pouch, and mags. I have seen some shops selling 995's with accessories attached to them as well.

hkmp5g17
February 23, 2006, 10:06 PM
From the factory, every hi-point comes with a sling, 1 magazine, and the scope rail. They include a catalog from which to buy the myzzle break, laser, pouch, and mags. I have seen some shops selling 995's with accessories attached to them as well.


:rolleyes: Not so- just looked through my Valor Corp (big distributor) catalog- and you can get them in several accesory packages.

tg_26101
February 23, 2006, 10:14 PM
From the factory, every hi-point comes with a sling, 1 magazine, and the scope rail. They include a catalog from which to buy the myzzle break, laser, pouch, and mags. I have seen some shops selling 995's with accessories attached to them as well.

But they don't come with 5 mags, nylon case, laser, muzzle brake, etc. I have an FFL, am a dealer, and know what Hi-Points come with. What was sold directly to LE is NOT a package available from the factory. The LE direct price, again, is MUCH lower than anything Hi-Point offers to the general public; you couldn't buy the accessories alone for anything near what they paid for their carbines fully outfitted. The owner of Hi-Point, in my opinion, is very civic minded in what he's offered to the LEO's in my area.

444
February 23, 2006, 10:22 PM
There have been numerous discussions on this board concerning Hi-Point carbines. This post in this thread is the ONLY post I have ever read on ANY on-line gun forum from someone that claims actual first hand experience with one that doesn't work.
I have one. I bought it with the laser and a number of magazines as well as a case of PMC ammo for $75. I added a small scope that I saw that was already in the mount for another tiny price. I have shot mine a fair amount and never had the slightest probem with it, or any of the magazines.
In the year or so leading up to Y2K, the small local gun dealer in the town where I was living sold hundreds of these Hi-Point carbines, and this was one dealer in the small town of Pahrump Nevada. He was averaging over 100 a month at one point. He told me that out of all the Hi-Points he ever sold (including handguns), he only had one come back with a problem. He called Hi-Point, in two days they sent him the parts, and then walked him through the repair on the phone (he is not a gunsmith).

Again, this wouldn't be my choice as a serious duty weapon. I don't generally buy cheap weapons. If I wanted to carry a 9mm carbine, I have a Colt AR15 in 9mm with 16", 11.5" barrels as well as a suppressed upper. My 11.5" and the supressed uppers are both flat tops which have Aimpoint red dots on them. But, again, I think the Hi-Point would work fine if that's what you have to work with.
Years ago, during these dicussions, I used to advise people to buy the Hi-Point carbine if they wanted a 9mm carbine. At the time I had three, including a Ruger PC9. The Hi-Point shot as well as the other two and cost a fraction of what they other two cost.

355sigfan
February 23, 2006, 10:23 PM
As an leo I would not want any cop to have one of those pos's. First off their pistol caliber pop guns. If I need a long gun I need stopping power, accuracy and the ability to engage targets and longer range. Their overgrown handguns. Second the Highpoints are the worst of their breed. Being literally disposable guns.
Pat

tg_26101
February 23, 2006, 10:56 PM
As an leo I would not want any cop to have one of those pos's. First off their pistol caliber pop guns. If I need a long gun I need stopping power, accuracy and the ability to engage targets and longer range. Their overgrown handguns. Second the Highpoints are the worst of their breed. Being literally disposable guns.
Pat

Not every department works under the same guidelines. At the time the local's got into these, they were forbidden to use a carbine in a rifle caliber. They had to be pistol caliber to be used in our city (the department AR's for general issue were in 9mm). For that matter, the local's here are not allowed to use 45ACP, even in an off duty gun. Just because it's what you use where you live/work, not everyone is under the same guidelines.

A 9mm 124 gr +P departs a Hi-Point at around 1600 FPS (I've chronographed it personally), which exceeds .357 Magnum from a handgun, which is generally considered a pretty darn good stopper. The accuracy I've seen from the Hi-Point is every bit as good as a Ruger PC, Marlin Camp, Beretta Storm, or any similar pistol caliber carbine at distances they were intended. It's also much easier to hit with a shoulder fired weapon than a handgun for most officers, and the small size of the Hi-Point allows it to be used in place of a handgun for many situations. I can also used the included laser to shoot from the hip, with all shots touching at 20 yards.

I give up on this; too many people that will let what they "think" get in the way of actual facts and performance. There are way too many "experts" here that won't consider that their personal opinion just may not be what everyone experiences.

Doug S
February 23, 2006, 10:58 PM
This thread deserves a pic. My Hi-Point came with the compensator and laser sight (as well as the sling and scope mount), although as you can see in the picture, I haven't put them on. All for $235, and this price is from one of the higher priced shops. It isn't pretty but it seems to work, and the looks tend to grow on you like those of a Glock. Seriously though, the magazine does not promote confidence in this firearm. The bullets have a natural tendency to point down, and you must make a conscious effort to push on the rear of the round to seat them correctly. Nevertheless, they seem to function reliably even with the crappy mag.

Slimjim
February 23, 2006, 11:13 PM
.45FMJoe,
I have the same experience with the hi-point 995 carbine. I got mine a while ago
(it cost way over msrp), and the dealer told me that it was very reliable (he never saw one jam) and accurate. With every ammo I tried (Winchester, UMC, Remington (makes UMC), Olympic, Bosnian Ammo (commercial stuff), Norinco, Geco, factory reloads (WC) I got the same result. I can rarely get through a plate run without ity jamming and nearly never an entire magazine. I have two mags, both work like crap. Accuracy is pretty good, but it doesn't shoot so who cares. The stock screws constantly need to be tightened as does the bolt handle (almost fell off during a shoot once). I do like the fit of the gun, and it 'swings' fast. For one shot, it would be a great gun, but beyond that (esp. when starting from a full mag) I don't trust it. :cuss: :cuss: :fire: :banghead: :cuss:

Return it to hipoint, and they will fix it, and you'll most likely get a mag with it for your troubles. They DO stand behind their product.

phoglund
February 23, 2006, 11:42 PM
I've read many of these HiPoint discussions. The majority of them have nothing but good things to say from actual owners/users of these firearms. The fact that HiPoint backs up their product with such a no-nonsense warranty discounts those who say they had one and it was nothing but a POS. I'd like to know if they returned theirs for repair/replacement and how the replacement worked.

These discussions have convinced me to someday purchase one of these carbines. It's not on the top of my purchase list but I'll get around to it. I like a bargain and fully expect this to provide high value for low cost. Maybe when the rumoured .45 caliber carbine is finally on the market.

I like good looking high quality firearms as much as the next person...but I love a bargain!

355sigfan
February 24, 2006, 12:17 AM
Not every department works under the same guidelines. At the time the local's got into these, they were forbidden to use a carbine in a rifle caliber. They had to be pistol caliber to be used in our city (the department AR's for general issue were in 9mm). For that matter, the local's here are not allowed to use 45ACP, even in an off duty gun. Just because it's what you use where you live/work, not everyone is under the same guidelines.
END QUOTE

If they did not allow rifles I would work on the chief until they did. My first department did not allow rifles and though a lot of work bending the right ears I got rifles approved. It took research and well prepared presentations. But it can be done. Another issue is if rifles are not allowed give me an 870 over any pistol caliber pop gun. With slugs I have a nice large bore rifle.
Pat

Crosshair
February 24, 2006, 12:31 AM
As a home defence carbine I would trust my life to it. Several things to remember.

Hi-Points hate hard primers. The striker sets off all US commercial ammo I have tried. But Wolf ammo, or ammo that uses CCI primers has about a 10% FTF rate.

Use only factory mags. Avoid the aftermarket 15 rounders like the plague.

If 10 rounds isn't enough, either reload or be sure to beat the perp so the rear sight is hitting him. Those "ears" on the rear sight should be able to cut flesh good enough, plus you have the whole mass of the receiver bearing onto their head.:evil: That heatshield over the barrel makes a really good gripping surface for use as a bat.

30-40Krag dude
February 24, 2006, 07:51 AM
I picked up my carbine about a year ago. took it out every weekend and shot 2 100 round boxes of WWB. It has well over 5000 round through it now without a single failure, and thats no BS. The only issue it has is the charging handle works loose after a few hundred rounds. If i was a LEO, i would have no complaints if someone handed me a 995.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v128/hatebreed76/80f4f31c.jpg

hkmp5g17
February 24, 2006, 05:48 PM
Just wanted to apologize- i saw the article again and it's in Gun World not Guns as I had stated. Sorry!!

Still haven't found a link.:banghead:

Anthony

Manedwolf
February 24, 2006, 05:54 PM
"Why use a high point when you have acces to MP-5's, UMP's, P90's...."

It seems to me that while a carbine the caliber of your sidearm is a good idea for a cop, that they should be using the Kel-Tec Sub 2000's instead.

In the sense that if they have Berettas, they can use the Kel-Tec that takes Beretta mags. If Glocks, etc, etc...

That way, depending on the situation, they could swap mags from their pistol and carbine freely. Plus the Kel-Tec folds up and could be stowed on or in a tactical backpack.

But that'd be too logical.

armoredman
February 24, 2006, 06:06 PM
I can see prison guards using em. Some use the Mini-14. (I remember seeing on a history channel documentary about prisons. I was saddened, as it was in somewhat poor shape all scratched and dinged )

Actually, we use AR15s and Glock 17s, got rid of all the Ruger Security Sixes and Mini 14s about 5 years ago...sold well in the private sector, I am told.
If I handed a HiPoint to a Tower Officer, he'd probably laugh, hand it back, and walk off the tower.
Having said that, I may try one of these little things, just for kicks.

355sigfan
February 24, 2006, 07:50 PM
It seems to me that while a carbine the caliber of your sidearm is a good idea for a cop,
END QUOTE

Its a crappy idea. Using an oversized handgun when you need a carbine or a shotgun will get you killed.
Pat

grimjaw
February 24, 2006, 07:53 PM
I like my PC9, but if I was working a security or law enforcement gig, I'd want something more. It wouldn't have anything to do with the reliability of the gun, either. I'd be remembing the phrase 'bring enough gun.' I know 9x19 will do the job, but 5.56/7.62 NATO or 7.62x39 will do it much better.

Maybe I'd consider one if it was a reliable semi-auto carbine chambered for .44 Magnum, and had a high capacity (20+) magazine, or PP-19 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bizon) in 7.62x25 Tokarev. If I'm dreaming, why not make it big? Better to have a rifle cartridge for a rifle for serious work, though.

jmm

Destructo6
February 24, 2006, 08:30 PM
I can tell you that the Border Patrol (DHS -> CBP -> Border Patrol) uses Colt-made M4s, either auto or semi-only. All the racks in the vehicles are for the M4 and shotgun (14" 870).

mapwd
February 24, 2006, 10:31 PM
I just bought a used one for $125.00 and took it to my indoor range, it ran great and accurate as hell. As for the warranty though, I just visited their websight and it states that it will not, under any circumstance, warranty to anyone but the original owner. I was bummed to read this. Anyone know if that has indeed changed??

R.W.Dale
February 24, 2006, 11:08 PM
All Hi-Point Firearms carry a Lifetime, No-Questions Asked Warranty.
If any Hi-Point Firearm is ever need of service, please call 877-425-4867
Whether you are the original purchaser, or a third-hand owner, your Hi-Point firearm will be repaired free of charge.

http://www.mkssupply.com/

STRAIGHT FROM THE HORSES MOUTH:D

kennyboy
February 25, 2006, 12:09 AM
Quote by ReadyontheRight: "To save the taxpayers money?"

I don't know if you'd rather them use the Hi Point or not. I don't know your stance, but I trust my life with the MP-5 or UMP much more than Hi Point. The MP-5 is the best submachine gun ever made... and that is a fact. They can spend my money if it means better equipment that will ultimately protect me.

355sigfan
February 25, 2006, 12:22 AM
Money should never be placed before an officers life. A high point is not an acceptable gun for LEO work.
Pat

Domino
February 25, 2006, 12:49 AM
Money should never be placed before an officers life. A high point is not an acceptable gun for LEO work.


:rolleyes: So what IS an officers life worth in dollars? There has to be some point to where PD's are spending too much money on guns or vests, money isn't limitless. For some departments, a Hi-point 995 may be a good alternative (for some officers) rather than a 12 gauge or AR type weapon.

Having shot a Hi-point quite a bit, I would say that it seems like a very useful and functional weapon within its limitations. If I were an LEO, I would rather have one 995 in .40 cal and a G22 rather than just the G22. In short, its better much better than nothing.

355sigfan
February 25, 2006, 01:09 AM
So what IS an officers life worth in dollars? There has to be some point to where PD's are spending too much money on guns or vests, money isn't limitless. For some departments, a Hi-point 995 may be a good alternative (for some officers) rather than a 12 gauge or AR type weapon.
END QUOTE

How much is your life worth. Glad to see you view my life as expendable. Departments are not spending too much on guns and vests. A high point is not a good alternative. If the department is dirt poor grants are available for desent weapons. A 12 gauge is not that expensive and is better than the pos highpoint in every way. AR's of course are preferred. As one who actually works the streets I would not want to be saddled with a Highpoint pos.
Pat

Crosshair
February 25, 2006, 01:22 AM
There are some departments that do not have a very large operating budget. Choices have to be made. Do they:


Buy the super cool AR-15 for $800 that will rarely be used.
Buy the 995 Carbine that will rarely be used and get some good body armor to the guys on the beat who are still using body armor from the early 1990s.
Buy the 995 and use the money saved on increased training.
Buy the 995 and upgrade the radios.

We are presented with tradeoffs every day. Resourses are limited and sometimes you have to go for something cheaper that will still get the job done 99% of the time. The military can't scrap all their B-52s and build a bunch of B-1 bombers. Is the B-1 better than the B-52? Heck yea, but the B-52 can do 99% of the things that the B-1 does and can do it for alot cheaper.

355sigfan
February 25, 2006, 01:34 AM
The rifles are used quite a bit every time you do an entry or felony stop. Radios are fine but I would rather carry an old saber and have an Ar then have a pistol caliber pop gun that is more likely to get me killed than the bad guy. I know all about budgets and the facts of life when it comes to buying equipment. However there are somethings you don't compromise on. Guns must meet a minimal acceptable standard no pistol caliber pop gun does that much less a high point. There is all kinds of gov't grants out there. Getting equipment is not that hard especially post 911. All you need to do is be willing to write some grant applicaitons. My old department got FLIR units and a bunch of other expensive items. So getting rifles would be cake. There is also a military give away program. Poor departments can piggy back dod programs and get M9's and surplus M16's.

Training is essential but you need to have the right tools. A highpoint carbine is about useless. I can think of a lot of guns I would rather have than a Highpoint. Heck even a plain jane 870 with rifle sights is far better.
Pat

Crosshair
February 25, 2006, 03:12 AM
If your so worried about a pistol caliber pop gun, then what about the pop guns that they carry in their holsters. Mabee we should arm everyone with 454 Casulls so we can be sure that they are not undergunned by some baddie. Cops where armed with 38 Specials for decades and it worked very well. If you are doing an entry for serving a warrant then call up the few guys that have ARs in their trunk or get them from the station if you insist on using a rifle in an encosed space without hearing protection.

When did a cop need to take a 200 yard shot? Anything that far away was probably taken care of with a police sniper. What if instead of Hi-Points they got to be issued MP5's. Do you hate using a pistol caliber carbine or are you hating Hi-Points. If we want bang for the buck, then issue them AKs chambered in .223. (The Saiga would work very well) Just put on a better rear sight or a red dot scope and you are good to go. All the advantages of an AR with the economy of an AK.

355sigfan
February 25, 2006, 05:29 AM
There are so many falsehoods in your post let me break them down one at a time.
QUOTE
If your so worried about a pistol caliber pop gun, then what about the pop guns that they carry in their holsters. Mabee we should arm everyone with 454 Casulls so we can be sure that they are not undergunned by some baddie. Cops where armed with 38 Specials for decades and it worked very well.
END QUOTE

We carry handguns because their convient. If you could get a holster for an AR15 I would be all for it. Handguns are carried just in case. If you expect trouble you get a long gun. At my last department when I was a sergeant I told my guys if you get a gun call and you show up with just your pistol your getting written up. You pull out rifles and shotguns for gun calls. Handguns are there for the times when you have no warning. As for 38 specials. We did fine with them until crime started to go up. 38's are fine if you never get into a gun fight. But as the criminals armed up so did the police.

QUOTE
If you are doing an entry for serving a warrant then call up the few guys that have ARs in their trunk or get them from the station if you insist on using a rifle in an encosed space without hearing protection.
END QUOTE

Actually all officers need longguns with them and not in the trunk. More cops die in traffic stops than any other call. Felony stops made having a long gun up front in a rack immediately available a necessity. You don't have any concept of what police work is about. We don't have a lot of warning when things go bad like active shooters in schools. You need to have your long gun with you and everyone needs one. As for hearing protection its a good idea. I carry electronic peltors in my patrol bag. If your department can afford it suppressors are a great idea.

QUOTE
When did a cop need to take a 200 yard shot? Anything that far away was probably taken care of with a police sniper. What if instead of Hi-Points they got to be issued MP5's. Do you hate using a pistol caliber carbine or are you hating Hi-Points.
END QUOTE

Actually active shooters have the potential for needing that kind of accuracy. The longest police sniper shot was taken at just over 400 yards in Central Park in New York. There are situations where more range is needed such as rural cops. I worked in rural Alaska for a while and the possibility of a long shot was not all that far off. Also the 223 is not just superior for range but for stopping power. The 223 has enough energy to tear tissue from its stretch cavity and bullet frags. As a rifle round it drops people far faster than any convential service pistol round. The only thing better would be a 308 or 12 gauge slugs. .223's are also safer for use inside because they actually have less chance of overpenetrating common homes than your pistol rounds do. As for MP5's their fun but I would rather have an M4 any day. All a subgun is is a fast firing accurate handgun. Most SWAT teams and the spec opps community has gone toward 223 carbines that are either full or semi auto. I hate pistol caliber carbines and Highpoints.

QUOTE
If we want bang for the buck, then issue them AKs chambered in .223. (The Saiga would work very well) Just put on a better rear sight or a red dot scope and you are good to go. All the advantages of an AR with the economy of an AK.
END QUOTE

AK's have terrible sights, crappy safety's and generally poor ergonomics. And then their is the political factor. No chief of city council is going to let its officers be issued AK 47's. Also 223 Ak's are not very reliable. They are plagued with problems. Its best to stick with the 7.62x39 or the 5.45x39 in an AK.

AR's are about the best game in the patrol rifle town. Also the 600 to 800 we spend on the rifles is small compared to other costs that its trival. Your not saving a lot of money by denying officers a life saving tool.
Pat

smince
February 25, 2006, 08:46 AM
http://www.atigunstocks.com/product-hipoint.html

Now you to can make your Hi-point look like a Beretta Storm...

pmbiker
February 25, 2006, 08:53 AM
355sigfan, you seem to be the biggest opponent of the hipoint on this thread. I mean no disrespect and have no intentions to challenge your experiences as a LEO but I do have a couple of questions for you.

Is your argument with pistol caliber carbines in general or just the HP? It seems if you just don't like pistol cal. carbines you spend a lot of time calling the HP a pos. Have you ever used a HP carbine more than just looking down your nose at it? Yes HP is at the bottom of the food chain and I wouldn't own one of their pistols, but the carbine is a different breed.

I have been to the range with both the pistol and the carbine and was quite impressed with the carbine. They were both given to my father and he not being a gun guy handed them over to me to try out. This was early in the development of the carbine and we were told to run the crap out of it and report back. Well, after @3k rounds only cleaning the bore and ZERO malfunctions I handed it back with high praise. Can't say the same for the pistol but that's another topic.

Buy one, shoot the crap out of it and if you're not convinced then call it a POS. Without firsthand experience, your opinion means squat. No one is suggesting you replace your AR with a HP, but for it's intended purpose I couldn't find a flaw besides being ugly.

355sigfan
February 25, 2006, 09:33 AM
QUOTE
Is your argument with pistol caliber carbines in general or just the HP? It seems if you just don't like pistol cal. carbines you spend a lot of time calling the HP a pos. Have you ever used a HP carbine more than just looking down your nose at it? Yes HP is at the bottom of the food chain and I wouldn't own one of their pistols, but the carbine is a different breed
END QUOTE

My argument is with both pistol caliber carbines and the highpoint. Pistol caliber carbines have no use outside of cowboy action shooting. They lack stopping power when compared to rifles and shotguns, they lack range, they over penetrate in homes compared to 223 carbines loaded with softpoints. Put simply they don't do anything well. My problem with high point is I have seen their pistols jam shatter and break. Its pot metal what can you expect from pot metal. The idea of having a leo use a highpoint angers me to no end. Its bad enough we have to take the lowest bidder. But we should not have to take this crap. No one should. There are so many better home defense options out there than the highpoint carbine.
Pat

tg_26101
February 25, 2006, 10:40 AM
No sense trying to argue with a fanatic. A closed mind can be very comforting to some people.

R.W.Dale
February 25, 2006, 11:15 AM
WOAH! 355Sigfan You are a LEO and yet you believe that there is such a thing as stopping power:rolleyes:

Correia
February 25, 2006, 12:34 PM
Gentlemen, chill out.

Back to the initial post, I spoke with a friend in ICE last night. He was really doubtful, and had never seen a high point in use anywhere in DHS. But like he said, Homeland Security is a big place.

Whether or not it is a decent, reliable weapon is besides the point, I'm just doubtful that DHS has ever used them in any sort of official capacity.

smince
February 25, 2006, 02:24 PM
No chief of city council is going to let its officers be issued AK 47's.

How about a County Sheriff? Last I knew Marshall county here in NE Alabama issued each deputy an AK47 and 5 mags for duty use. May not be current, but I remember the news story a few years ago.

I would also suggest that a head shot from a pistol-caliber carbine@30yds+(difficult, though not impossible with a handgun) will "disorient" a BG enough that he will stop, or at least slow, whatever activity caused him to be shot in the first place.

Srigs
February 25, 2006, 04:32 PM
I have two HP carbines one in 9mm (995) and 40S&W (4095).

I have 2000 rounds through my 40 and it feeds and fires everything I have loaded. I have 300 rounds through my 9 and it has been very good.

I just back from the 50 yard indoor range with my 9. 100 rounds later 70 with iron sights and 30 with a scope some at 25 and 50 yards. You can cover your hand over 10 round at 25 yards and a small plate at 50 yards with iron sights. With the scope I can shoot 1 inch groups with 10 rounds at 25 yards and 3 inch groups with 10 rounds at 50 yards.

So, very easy to shoot, accurate out to 100-150 yards with iron sights, 100% reliable, lite, handy and can be used by almost anyone. I use my 40 as my HD gun and 9 as my wifes HD gun.

If I want to shoot further than that, I would use my 308! ;)

Doug S
February 25, 2006, 04:42 PM
I just had my Hi-Point out for a second range trip. 50 flawless rounds of Winchester Silvertip Hollowpoints. That said, I still think the lousy magazines would be the primary culprit in any reliabily problems with this firearm. You have to make sure that the rounds are set in the magazine correctly before you place the magazine in the gun. If the front of the top round is pointed down instead of the correct (pointing up) position, the bolt will not feed the first round into the magazine. As long as you push down on the rear of the top round to make sure it is seated correctly, they feed fine. I just wonder if the rounds could move around in a loaded magazine (but not chambered) while carrying the gun. If so, when you go to cycle the first round it could hang up. Has anyone found this to be true? Based on this, I probably would opt for the Hi-Point as a self-defense firearm only if there were no better choices. I would probably go with my Mossberg, Sub 2000 with Glock mags, or the SKS/AK (I don't have any AR types) before using the Hi-Point. Still, if the Hi-Point is what you have, I don't think you should feel poorly armed in a self-defense situation. I wouldn't hesitate at all with recommending the Hi-Point carbine if it were not for my perception that the magazines are not up to par with the rest of the gun. Also it would have to prove that the build quality is durable and reliable in the long run (at least 500 to 1000 rounds), before it would be used as a SD firearm.

Manedwolf
February 25, 2006, 04:45 PM
Certain posts on this thread once again validate my statement I've made before, that I feel that many police precincts need to be reminded of one thing.

THEY are NOT SOLDIERS. They ARE NOT military.

They are...gasp...CIVILIANS with a JOB.


When the opposite happens, that's when you get things like an unarmed bookie popped in the head and killed, or an old lady in New Orleans slammed against the wall and her shoulder broken. (See this month's NRA magazine).

I'm getting pretty tired of cops thinking they're soldiers when they don't need to be..and thinking they're Army Rangers without the training or discipline. Posse comitatus protects us from the soldiers being police. We don't need the police to turn from keepers of the peace into a domestic combat force that lacks the training of real soldiers. The very idea that someone thinks that every cop, not just specialized, trained SWAT, needs an AR scares the hell out of me. We have enough NDs as is with just Glocks and such, and enough cops out there who have lousy trigger discipline and who wave their guns around when they shouldn't. A ND with an AR could kill someone several houses away, easily. SOLDIERS who are issued them train and train and train, knowing every single inch of it backwards and forward. Beat cops don't.

You sign up to be a cop to keep the peace and protect the citizens from harm. If you're more concerned about carrying an AR and being all Tacticool in response to every unwarranted situation...you are forgetting that you are still a CIVILIAN. Do the citizens a favor. Quit and join the military. You'd be far more useful shooting at insurgents in Iraq than slamming helpless old ladies in American towns into walls.

355sigfan
February 25, 2006, 07:51 PM
WOAH! 355Sigfan You are a LEO and yet you believe that there is such a thing as stopping power
__________________
END QUOTE

No matter which ballistic expert you pick, Fackler or Marshall all agree rifles are far more effective and ending fights than pistols. Stopping power is a term used to describe this effectiveness. With pistols stopping power does not really exist. With rifles and shotguns it does.
As for the civilian comment. Civilian is defined as a person who is not a member of the military or POLICE. Look it up. And we put our lives on the line daily in the war on crime. In this war on terror cops died in 911 well before any soldiers did. As for training. I would put my training up against any military members short of SF. Who did the spec opps community turn to when they needed to brush up on their urban combat skills. Yep Swat teams like LAPD and the FBI's HRT team. I am tired of people like you who somehow think getting shot inside the country as a leo is less dangerious than getting shot as a soldier overseas. We both have our jobs to do. I work with a lot of former military folks and their good people. But their training is usually not quite up to leo standards unless they were former SF. I ran a Captain in the Army through our pistol qual and he failed miserably. Yet he is an expert in the army with the M9. Talk about lower standards.

Pat

Destructo6
February 25, 2006, 08:20 PM
The rifles are used quite a bit every time you do an entry or felony stop.
About the only times I do not carry, in my hands no less, an M4 with me is in detention. All of our M4s are checked out daily, on every shift, and more are on the way.

Manedwolf
February 25, 2006, 09:42 PM
As to the training of "all" police officers...:

-----------------------------------
" NEW ORLEANS, Dec. 14 /U.S. Newswire/ -- A New Orleans woman is recovering from surgery this week from injuries resulting from when she was roughed-up by authorities who forced her to leave her home a week after Hurricane Katrina. Patricia Konie, 58, has filed a Federal lawsuit over the injuries and other violations of civil rights.

Konie was greeting a reporter and photographer from a San Francisco TV station and a journalist from the London Times when police unexpectedly entered her home. When she refused to leave as ordered, they confiscated a firearm used for defense and according to Konie, "slammed" her to the ground, both displacing and fracturing her left shoulder.
"
-------------------------------------

(Washington Post)
On Jan. 24, a SWAT team in Fairfax shot and killed Salvatore J. Culosi Jr., an optometrist who was under investigation for gambling. According to a Jan. 26 front-page story in The Post, Culosi had emerged from his home to meet an undercover officer when a police tactical unit swarmed around him. An officer's gun discharged, killing the suspect. Culosi, police said, was unarmed and had displayed no threatening behavior.
--------------------------------------------

NEW YORK - In a tragic case of mistaken identity, police shot and critically wounded an off-duty officer as he pointed a gun at a suspect outside a fast food restaurant early Saturday, authorities said.
......
He apparently subdued one of the suspects, and when a patrol car arrived, was pointing his gun at a man on the ground.

One of the two officers, apparently believing Hernandez was about to shoot,in the car opened fire, Police Commissioner Ray Kelly said.
--------------------------------------------

Should some cops have ARs, those who are SWAT or trained for and deployed to SPECIFIC situtations? Yes. Do I feel comfortable with ALL beat cops taking combat weapons into "any" possible felony situation, with things like this happening? HELL NO!

355sigfan
February 25, 2006, 10:31 PM
Cops screw up. What about the abuse of prisoners by the military in Cuba. Its real professional to walk prisoners around like dogs and make them commit sex acts with each other. People in glass houses should not throw stones. There are good and bad people in the military and in the police force.

QUOTE
Should some cops have ARs, those who are SWAT or trained for and deployed to SPECIFIC situtations? Yes. Do I feel comfortable with ALL beat cops taking combat weapons into "any" possible felony situation, with things like this happening? HELL NO!
END QUOTE

I don't care what your comfortable with. As an officer who is also an instructor. I am very confident in those I have trained and in their ability to handle a AR. Your lack of knowlege on this matter is apparent. 223 carbines are good patrol level tools. Their better than the other alternatives. For instance shotguns spray pellets out that pose more of a liability risk if you should miss than a single 223 round. 223 rounds are less likely to over penetrate a building or a person who is shot causing harm to innocent bystanders. The AR15 in its semi auto form is perfect for the average patrol officer. Were not talking full auto here. SWAT teams should have full auto and other toys.

Its very obvious you have had your path cross with leo's and now have an ax to grind. Just obey the law and you will be fine.

Pat

Manedwolf
February 25, 2006, 10:58 PM
>>Its very obvious you have had your path cross with leo's and now have an ax to grind. Just obey the law and you will be fine.

On the contrary. I haven't. I just don't ever want to find myself in a situation where myself or someone I care about is at risk when someone who has NOT had sufficient training has a weapon of that sort when on a response in a first-world nation's cities and suburbs. I'd always thought "the police" were the men and women in blue and keepers of the peace, not shouting quasi-soldiers who dressed up in tactical-this-and-that and urban camo to respond to things like an unarmed bookie's questioning. As I pointed in that example:

"Culosi had emerged from his home to meet an undercover officer when a police tactical unit swarmed around him." - Do you REALLY think that was the appropriate force level for that situation? Especially since someone was so badly trained that they did a ND and killed the guy? If _I_ did a "screw up" like that, it'd be called "murder" or "manslaughter". He obeyed the law. He came out. He's dead.

Yes, I'm sure you train YOUR officers quite well, but there are a lot of PDs who do NOT..just look at how many "glock legs" there have been, all NDs, and how many other NDs. Look at the optometrist who got killed, there.

"Cops screw up" isn't good enough for me. If you can guarantee that ALL officers who are equipped with ARs and the like have an expert level of training, fine. But otherwise, keepers of the peace have done just fine for the better part of the century with pistols and a cruiser shotgun...and to me, a pistol-caliber carbine would be ideal for someone who might be just fine with a pistol, but unexpectedly needs a little longer range.

And it just seems like "obey the law and you'll be fine" tends to go out the window when you've got a bunch of amped-up people with rifles and tac gear responding to a situtation where that level of force isn't warranted, especially when those muzzles are pointed at people in the context of giving orders, rather than at clear threats. It would seem to me, just based on common sense and human psychology, that that'd scare noncombatants into a subconcious fight-or-flight response and escalate the situation, and is more likely than not to result in the violation of some law-abiding citizen's rights by someone with more adrenaline than training.

A NY cop got shot with no questions asked, first, for covering a suspect with his weapon as they arrived. What would happen if I was covering a criminal who had tried to kill someone, but they'd dropped their weapon and laid down..and though I'd called the police or asked someone to, I didn't see them arrive. I'd always thought that they'd yell to drop the weapon, which of course I would, and appear nonthreatening. But if they shoot first without asking? I was still obeying the law, but someone got jumpy.

"Cops screw up" isn't much consolation.

Fire4Effect
February 26, 2006, 01:07 AM
I've been considering getting one of the High Point carbines which is why I even bothered to read this thread in the first place. So, my assessment is (1) there is only one High Point hater who uses every opportunity to refer to them as POS's and pop guns. (2) Said Hater, in his vast experience and knowledge, has been everywhere, seen and done everything, better than everyone else ( they call that one up-manship), is always going to have an opinion contrary to everyone but himself.
Final results, by shear numbers the Lovers beat the Haters. I'm getting the High Point carbine.:neener:

355sigfan
February 26, 2006, 01:08 AM
Cops make mistakes soldiers do too. Life goes on. Having an AR15 does not make a cop more dangerious than one with a pistol caliber pop gun if he messes up.

A semi auto 223 is about an ideal police firearm. Its easy to shoot well with minimal training. It has low risk of overpenetration. Its a very versatile firearm in that its good from point blank range like when doing entries to over 300 or more yards when doing perimeter work.

When it comes to ND's Not picking on the military but I know there are more ND's with servicemen and women than with police officers. Even on the per capita level. The reason is your dealing with a lot younger group in the military as a whole with less responsibility and life experience. Most police officers start out at at least 21 more often its 25 or so. A lot are former military or at the very least have been to college and have worked a regular job for a while prior to becoming an officer. I have seen far worse gun handling from GI's on the local gun range than I have from the worst officers.

If we can trust 18 year old kids with full auto M4's with 9 weeks of basic training. We can definately trust officers who are at least 21, with training academies from 16 weeks to 6 months long. The officers are also required to qualify at least twice a year and most departments require more.

When it comes to ND's again the military does not even trust their MP's to carry their M9's with a chambered round.

Your argument does not hold water. You have a low opinion of all police based on the few who have made some serious mistakes. Well people make mistakes cops and soldiers. That does not mean we disarm either.
Pat

Srigs
February 26, 2006, 01:30 AM
Final results, by shear numbers the Lovers beat the Haters. I'm getting the High Point carbine.

Fire4effect. Good choice and choose the caliber based on what you use most or carry as a pair(handgun & carbine) if needed.

Let us know how you like it. :)

epijunkie67
February 26, 2006, 02:46 AM
I own a 995 in 9mm and have for several years. As with most others, I find it reliable, accurate, and handy. Are there better rifles out there? Of course there are. A lot of them. But as with most things you have to have reasonable expectation about what it is and what it does.

I wouldn't try to hunt bear with an AR in .223 and I wouldn't try to clear a house with a full sized M1A. The best thing the carbine has going for it is that it's cheap and handy. Some people don't have a ton of money to spend on a gun and ammo and if money is tight this might fill the ticket. Sure, another option would be an SKS but some people might not want the size and weight. Some people may want a magazine fed weapon. Whatever. Some people just like the way it shoots.

Bottom line to me is this weapon can serve a useful purpose for those who find money tight. I wouldn't expect law enforcement to use it any more than I would expect them to use any pistol caliber carbine. But as an inexpensive "homeland defense rifle" I think it would work just fine. I sure wouldn't want to get into a firefight with someone using one.

smince
February 26, 2006, 06:31 AM
We can definately trust officers who are at least 21, with training academies from 16 weeks to 6 months long. The officers are also required to qualify at least twice a year and most departments require more.


I kinda hate to jump in here, but I'm friends with our local PD firearms training officer. I know his skill level, and his committment to training his officers. There are some officers that you cannot pass this knowledge to, no matter how good a trainer you are. There a gun people (like on this forum) who will go the extra mile and train at their own expense. They know skill at weapons may save their or someones' lives some day. Then there are those who only shoot qualification because the department requires them to to keep their job. These individuals are there just to bring home a check every week, and it just so happens carrying a gun and occasionally qualifiying with it is part of that job.

I've watched these shoot their qualification(required every 4 months) and barely pass, and it isn't that hard a course(I've shot 98-99% on it, cold, with a brand new gun and holster). Then they clean the guns, reload, and hit the street, to protect and serve, after barely passing the minimum score. There are great officers out there, but I'm afraid there are, like everywhere else in life, those that are content "to just get by".

355Sig, I commend your level of commitment and training, but even you probably will admit there are officers you work with that you don't feel should have a gun on the street(You won't admit it on a public forum, but in the back of your mind, maybe...).

355sigfan
February 26, 2006, 07:20 AM
355Sig, I commend your level of commitment and training, but even you probably will admit there are officers you work with that you don't feel should have a gun on the street(You won't admit it on a public forum, but in the back of your mind, maybe...).
END QUOTE

There are some bad officers but we have strict policys on those that can not shoot acceptably. They fail the first time its desk duty. They get one week to qual. If they fail at the end of the week its suspension then one last try when their back off. If they fail then its termination.

But even with bad officers. They should have AR15's. Even the worst officers can pass the patrol rifle qualification. The reason is the guns are so easy to shoot well vs the shotgun and the handgun. The bad officers are the ones that need a good patrol rifle the most.

And everything that applies to cops applies to soldiers. Remember the group with Jessica Lynch that did not maintain their weapons and found themselves in a world of trouble. Every group of people will have its slugs. The 223 carbine is a great tool for law enforcement. In fact it suits us better than the military. The military could benefit from a round with a bit more penetration against hard targets and more long range potential than the 5.56.
Pat

dfaugh
February 26, 2006, 11:04 AM
I think they could definitely have a place for LE. Compact light and reasonably accurate. And you DO get more punch outa the long carbine barrel.

Oh, BTW, mine has over 5000 rounds through it...everything from cheapo Wolf and Blazer to +P+...No malfunctions, ever. None. Nada. Zip. And I rarely clean it, besides a quick swab down the barrel. I've never actually dissasembled it for cleaning.

pmbiker
February 26, 2006, 12:19 PM
:banghead:

This seems to be going nowhere. No one firearm will serve every task. Some are better suited to certain situations than others. Know your weapon and practice with it. I'd fear a well practiced civillian with a hipoint more than a donut junkie with an AR. If you want a HP carbine, buy one. If it fails, use the warranty. If you want an AR ask 355sigfan his opinion, I'm sure you'll get it.;)

smince
February 26, 2006, 03:50 PM
Even the worst officers can pass the patrol rifle qualification. The reason is the guns are so easy to shoot well vs the shotgun and the handgun.

By your own logic, doesn't this apply equally to the pistol-caliber carbine?

hkmp5g17
February 27, 2006, 03:30 PM
So has anyone else read the article yet? I started this thread thinking that Gun World was claiming DHS use to support their advertiser- MKS Supply. Nothing against the Hi Point ( I used to own one- worked great) but I'd think they'd rather use an M4, MP5, FN P90 etc.

JShirley
February 27, 2006, 04:00 PM
As for 38 specials. We did fine with them until crime started to go up.

When was that? According to the FBI's violent crime stats (http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_00/xl/00tbl01.xls), violent crime has been declining for years. Since you're two years younger than I am, you must have become a LEO when you were 6 for this to be a true statement.


J

Mannlicher
February 27, 2006, 05:41 PM
I think its a wonderful idea. High Points are cheap, and seem to be pretty good at what they are for, which is shooting. Since we taxpayers are footing the bill, I don't mind cops using less expensive guns. Face it, not every cop needs his own HK MP5. Personally, I would not buy one, they are SO ugly :)

dcloudy777@aol.com
February 27, 2006, 06:13 PM
I like the idea of using them to deter prison escapees.... they're pretty inexpensive, so correctional facilties should buy them by the thousand and distribute them to every residence and business within a 5-mile radius of the prison, along with 100rds or ammo, a check-in tag, and a $1000 bounty offer. Now THAT would deter prison escapees.... :evil:

DanO

355sigfan
February 27, 2006, 07:05 PM
When was that? According to the FBI's violent crime stats, violent crime has been declining for years. Since you're two years younger than I am, you must have become a LEO when you were 6 for this to be a true statement.
END QUOTE

Violent crime has been droppig since the 70's partly due to stepped up law enforcement. We have locked up 75% more people since the 60's. This has cut down on crime simply because more criminals are in jail and not out committing crimes. We have new threads today we did not have in the past. Active shooters are one. My first department had one of the first school shootings. Violent crime has been going down overall but police confrontations with armed criminals has been going up. The 38 special was never all that popular or effective. It was dubbed the widowmaker by those who had to carry it. WIth its 158 grain round nosed lead bullet. It is a lot more effective with good hollow points. But their are far better choices. The chances an officer will have to fire a gun in his career is not greater than it was in the past.

Crime is going down partly due to the hardwork of law enforcement.
Pat

JShirley
February 27, 2006, 07:52 PM
We have locked up 75% more people since the 60's. This has cut down on crime simply because more criminals are in jail and not out committing crimes. We have new threads today we did not have in the past.

Well, that's an interesting theory, Pat, but it's just not true. I'm certain more people are locked up today. For drug offenses (55% in 2004). About 11% are in for violent crimes.

Declining violent crime rates have a variety of causes, but the most probable is the rise in mean age of the population (http://www.census.gov/prod/2002pubs/censr-4.pdf)*. Since you're a dedicated and well schooled law enforcement professional, I know you're well aware that the vast majority of serious crimes are committed by males in the 14-25 y/o age range (http://www.oup.co.uk/pdf/0-19-927381-2.pdf). You therefore fully understand the aging of the population is the reason for the fall in VCR, not how many druggies you gleefully place behind bars.

But I can understand why you would need those more effective firearms to use against all those violent drug users. Oh, wait- they're not in jail for violent crimes. :rolleyes:

I'm glad you have new threads, Pat. Are they grey? Black? Blue? Please tell me they're not white. Cute outfits are the most important piece of a law enforcement professional's gear.

John

*See pages 52, 54, 55 & 56

355sigfan
February 27, 2006, 08:08 PM
Its true that criminals age out. Its true that violent crime has gone down. its also true that criminals are better armed today than in the past. Its also true that we have threats today we did not have in the past. The old wheel gun just is not up to it. If you feel differently thats fine. But since myself and others in my generation are the ones risking our necks I believe we have every right to demand good equipment. Thank you very much. I have lost a few friends in this job. I don't care to lose any more. Also those so called drug users are not just in jail for drug use. Their in jail for crimes related to drug use. On the state level very few drug users get locked up. The sellers do. Our prisions are filled with violent offenders. Also drug users often turn to violent means to get their drugs. over 90% of crime is drug and alcohol related. It sounds like your a CJ student. I got my degree back in 99. Most of the theorys from the classroom hold no water in the real world.
Pat

355sigfan
February 27, 2006, 08:16 PM
the vast majority of serious crimes are committed by males in the 14-25 y/o age range
END QUOTE

Another fact you should be aware of is that while crime overall is going down. Juvenile crime is going up. Juvenile's are about havle of that 14 to 25 group;)
Pat

JShirley
February 28, 2006, 12:17 AM
Golly, Pat, you do have some interesting ideas.

Let's take criminals being better armed. Hm...is that really true? If, in 1930, I could walk into Sears and walk out with a Thompson submachine gun without filling out any paperwork, the modern thug is better armed...how?

Without downplaying the risks law enforcement take daily, I expect to be someplace hot and sandy in the next few years, facing enemy armed with explosives and real weapons, so forgive me if I am unpersuaded by your "you can't really know how dangerous it really is" spiel.

90% of crime is drug and alcohol related

Wow, that sounds significant, doesn't it? Especially since I already mentioned that over half of the people in prison ARE THERE FOR DRUG OFFENCES. You're not actually proving your point here, Pat.

A CJ student? No, I'm a historian.

Now, we're having this discussion because of your need to decry an inexpensive carbine. Why? Because you have something to prove. Why? Because you feel inadequate. Why?

I'm certain everyone here knows law enforcement has an important role to play, Pat, don't feel inadequate. Unfortunately, just because you believe something, does not automatically make it gospel.

The thing that really puzzles me, Pat, is why a cop in Alaska feels the need to
talk like an HRT-wannabe. I'm really glad you want to be high-speed. No, really, I am.



John

ghost squire
February 28, 2006, 12:38 AM
the modern thug is better armed...how?

If you consider AK-47s better then Thompsons they are.

swingset
February 28, 2006, 12:50 AM
You guys need to give up on 355SigFan

He'll warm up to Hi-Points right about the same time he figures out how to use the quote function.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

355sigfan
February 28, 2006, 03:29 AM
J Shirly your post was reported for the insult contained in. I am not a HRT wanna be. Also law enforemcentin Alaska is no different than anywhere else. Try to follow the highroad rules please. Might be a good idea since your a moderator. That whole lead by example thing.

As for your post.
QUOTE
Golly, Pat, you do have some interesting ideas.

Let's take criminals being better armed. Hm...is that really true? If, in 1930, I could walk into Sears and walk out with a Thompson submachine gun without filling out any paperwork, the modern thug is better armed...how?
END QUOTE

True but at more than $200 a copy back then only the most wealthy criminals could afford them.


QUOTE

Without downplaying the risks law enforcement take daily, I expect to be someplace hot and sandy in the next few years, facing enemy armed with explosives and real weapons, so forgive me if I am unpersuaded by your "you can't really know how dangerous it really is" spiel.
END QUOTE

I admire your service to your counrty. But remember cops and ems died first in this little war on terror. And your comments do down play the risks in law enforcement today. I have lost friends. I hope you don't in the sand box.


QUOTE
Wow, that sounds significant, doesn't it? Especially since I already mentioned that over half of the people in prison ARE THERE FOR DRUG OFFENCES. You're not actually proving your point here, Pat.
END QUOTE

Drug offenses is different from drug users. You took quite a leap from saying their all drug users. People usually don't do any time for simple drug use. Rather Drug dealers do. You know the guys that try to kill cops and others on a daily basis.

QUOTE
A CJ student? No, I'm a historian.
END QUOTE

Good then try to get your history correct.

QUOTE
Now, we're having this discussion because of your need to decry an inexpensive carbine. Why? Because you have something to prove. Why? Because you feel inadequate. Why?
END QUOTE

Because its a pos carbine that could cost someone their life if they have to depend on it. I bet you don't take one to the sand box with you.

QUOTE
I'm certain everyone here knows law enforcement has an important role to play, Pat, don't feel inadequate. Unfortunately, just because you believe something, does not automatically make it gospel.
END QUOTE

Its not gospel but you will have to consider many feel the same as I do on the subject. The military has pretty much dropped subguns. Most of the nations leo swat teams are switching to select fire or semi auto 223 carbines.

QUOTE
The thing that really puzzles me, Pat, is why a cop in Alaska feels the need to
talk like an HRT-wannabe. I'm really glad you want to be high-speed. No, really, I am.

We just don't really need, or want, to hear your silly fantasies.

John
END QUOTE

Here is the unprofessional rub. As a cop I feel the need to be safe and have the best tools available so I can do my job. I also keep up on continuing training. I don't work in LA but as a cop in Alaska I do faces dangers as well. I have been in some tight situations. I have not had to kill anyone. And for that I thank god. But there were some times that were close. My life is no more a fantasy than yours. I don't understand why you feel the need to insult law enforcement as a profession and Alaskan law enforcement in general to make your point.
Pat

.45Guy
February 28, 2006, 04:21 AM
And the drama continues:cool:
http://www.cs.cornell.edu/talc/images/popcorn.jpg

355sigfan
February 28, 2006, 04:39 AM
Swingset if you haven't noticed the quote funciton is down.
Pat

GunnySkox
February 28, 2006, 05:30 AM
Swingset if you haven't noticed the quote funciton is down.
Pat

Oh? Oh? Owned.

~GnSx
edit: type {quote="username"}quoted text{/quote} to quote something, with square brackets instead of squirrely brackets.

Matt G
February 28, 2006, 11:19 AM
The Quote function is down, because we took it down. :)

Getting off-topic...
Drug offenses is different from drug users. You took quite a leap from saying their all drug users. People usually don't do any time for simple drug use. Rather Drug dealers do. You know the guys that try to kill cops and others on a daily basis.

Point of fact, Pat, but an astoundingly high proportion of the folks doing prison time in this country have a charge related to simple possession. My B.S. in Criminal Justice has taught me the research methods to recognize this. My 6 years of working in the criminal justice field have let me observe this. Most of the possessors are users. Sure, some deal on the side, or even as a main gig, but let's not you and I kid ourselves that the majority of our drug busts have been Big Time Dealers. Sure, lots of those folk initially get probation. But when they're popped again a few months or a year down the road, and their probation gets revoked, they're looking at jail or prison time.

JShirley
February 28, 2006, 11:39 AM
law enforemcentin Alaska is no different than anywhere else

Untrue. EVERY law enforcement agency has to consider what we in the Army refer to as "METT-T" (Mission, Enemy, Terrain, Troops and equipment, and Time). Rural agencies will have different specific needs than urban ones, etc. (But, since you're in Alaska, you KNOW this.)

Since you're in Alaska, depending on your locale, your high speed AR fixation could lead to someone dying if they are in an area with high numbers of large animals, and are armed with an M4 instead of a good shotgun loaded with slugs. Yes, I now suggest a good carbine for defensive purpose for MOST people, but there IS no single "best" solution for everyone.

at more than $200 a copy back then only the most wealthy criminals could afford them

Hello? You can buy an automatic weapon on the streets today for how much? Oh, that's right, you can buy one practically anywhere, for $50. Not.

Pat, I do not downplay the very real risks law enforcement officers face every day. At the same time, it's not usually quite the same thing as facing IEDs and incoming mortar fire.

I've lost friends too, and sometimes, just pieces of friends. :(

People usually don't do any time for simple drug use. Rather Drug dealers do. You know the guys that try to kill cops and others on a daily basis.


If a drug dealer "tried to kill cops on a daily basis" he would be listed as a violent crimimal, not as being in jail for a drug offence. And "drug dealer= guy who tries to kill cops and others on a daily basis" is a pretty major non sequiture, even for you.

History correct? I'm sorry, I missed the authoritative sources, such as the US Census Bureau, that you quoted. Point them out to me again. (See, that's what historians do. They look for reliable sources to explain past happenings leading to current trends.)

You're right, Pat, I probably will have an M16 or M4 (or M9), not a 9mm carbine, if I go to the sand box. Oh, wait- did I just mention I MIGHT HAVE A 9MM HANDGUN. I'm sorry- I'd prefer a 9mm carbine to a 9mm handgun practically every damn day, and did I mention I used to carry a 60mm mortar? Where does indirect fire capability fit into the law enforcement mission? What's that? The law enforcement mission is different than the military one? Oh, so they might have different gear? I see.

You mean, for instance, (depending on locale), a longarm that could stop a large dangerous animal might be preferable for the local LEO than a high capacity autoloading carbine? Wow, that's a great point. What's that? The LEO needs a firearm with which to engage suspects at 400 meters? (Why is it okay to laugh at tactical posers, but not okay to laugh at tactical posing by those with badges? Just a rhetorical question.)

I'm sorry, that doesn't sound like the typical need of a good law enforcement officer. It could happen, yes, but then again, it's not very darn likely, is it?

Pat, I'm not insulting law enforcement in general, or Alaskan enforcement in particular. I have considered just such work myself, though I think in the long run I'll make more working at a think tank than working as Alaskan LEO.

What I am questioning is your ability to accurately deduce the threats you face, and furthermore, to say I seriously doubt your ability to semi-eloquently elucidate such threats to this audience is a massive understatement.

When poor deduction is combined with a need to present your One, True opinion to the community, we have a problem.

So, though I think they're ugly, I do believe the Hi-Point carbine is a very cost-effective possible option for some law enforcement agencies.

John

R.W.Dale
February 28, 2006, 12:14 PM
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y96/krochus/smack/lovethread.jpg

Carl N. Brown
February 28, 2006, 02:04 PM
A fellow shooter at the range brings his HiPoint carbine out
for the Ladies' Day that follows our BP cartridge matches;
the gun shoots and shoots and shoots and never jams and
even newbies can hit the 100 yd pig silhouettes with it. And
he uses Winnie White Box and Wolf, not exactly premium ammo.

Ignore your feelings about the HiPoint pistol: the carbine is real.

355sigfan
February 28, 2006, 08:05 PM
JShirley

Quite frankly based on what you have said you have no idea about the needs of modern law enforcement. So debating this point with you is like arguing with an anti gun zelot who does not have the facts. We going to get no where fast.

I hope you stay safe over there. Losing someone to and IED is no different than simply losing someone to a 7.62 SKS on a gun call. I am going to bow out before this thread gets uglier and more insults are thrown.
Pat

ghost squire
March 1, 2006, 03:46 AM
Can't we all just get along and agree that your both decidedly more tactical then I am?

JShirley
March 1, 2006, 09:11 AM
Shucks, Pat. Since I'm giving both an overall picture, and links to specific data- unlike you- I kinda fail to see how you could say conversation with me is "like arguing with an anti gun zelot who does not have the facts". I do have the facts, and I have demonstrated so. I'm sorry if the facts conflict with your ideas, so by all means, discard them. Pesky facts!
---
Tactical? Not me. :p

I was speaking to accurately assessing one's needs and resources. For some, the Hi Point carbine, though ugly and inexpensive, could be a useful tool, unless you're unspeakably tactical. :D

John

PvtPyle
March 1, 2006, 04:18 PM
I just tuned in here, and the Hi-point aside I need to address this first:

With Colt you don't need a no bs lifetime warranty because they don't shatter when you drop them. Their built military tough.

Are you out of your mind? Colt is built kindergarden tough. I had 82 Colts delivered to me that were ALL total and utter CRAP! And to top it off, they had never been fired. The biggest single problem was that the receiver notch and barrel lug on top were different sizes. After a few rounds the guys were noticing that the barrels were loose and would turn slightly in the receiver.

It became obvious that Colt knew about it before they went out when we took a few unfired guns and pulled them apart. The rigns were tourqed on to nearly twice what the manual calls for. When they were tightened to spec the barrels were loose.

When we ran the complaint up the chain Colt said in a nutshell, "Too bad, they sat in the warehouse so long that they are now out of warranty". This turned out to not be an issolated incident, so Colt no longer has the military contract.

So in MNSHO, the Colts are no more suited for LEO work than the Hi-point carbine.

444
March 1, 2006, 11:38 PM
Another third hand story about Colt.
One of the instructors I had at Gunsite works for a Southern ********** police department. Their tactical team carries Colt M16s with 11.5" barrels. When they get them, they won't run on full auto. Of course when they first started buying these, they called Colt to complain. Colt told them that they don't test fire any of the guns, they expect the department's armor to sort each gun out prior to issuing it. This is exactly what they have to do in order to have these brand new Colt guns run.

drinks
March 2, 2006, 12:48 AM
I would say there are some funny things going on here.
First, there is no Texas Dept. of Prisons, formerly, it was called the Texas Dept. of Correction, currently it is called the Texas Dept. of Criminal Justice.I am a retiree with 10 years service.
The firearms in the armories and guard towers are;
A Colt SS revolver with 38sp+P loads.
A Remington 870P and 00 buckshot.
A Colt made AR 15 and 55gr fmj loads.
The 9mm is not in use in the Texas Dept. Criminal Justice, unless some of the commissioned personnel carry a 9mm pistol.
They only carry when off the prison sites
, unless an escape is in progress and they are hunting the escapees, and this is not in the buildings, only on the outer property and the neighboring properties with whom the State has an agreement allowing trespass while hunting the escapee/s.
Hot pursuit is another matter altogether, not just hunting for an escapee.
Correctional officers have no law enforcement authority, no matter how much they try to bluff people.

EmGeeGeorge
March 16, 2006, 01:21 PM
... I could maybe see a kel-tec carbine... the fit finish design seems a little better I have one in 9mm and it's reliable and accurate... plus in .40 could be compatable with glocks...

dz86
March 23, 2006, 02:26 AM
I think that Carlos Hathcock put it best when he said that you needed a range of different firearms for different missions, kind of like a golfer selecting the proper club from a golf bag.
That's whay our department issues several different rifles to different officers. Our ERT/snipers carry their .308 bolt rifles with them on patrol. We also have 10 USGI M-14s that we got from the government. Another 5 officers have G36s, full auto capable, 5.56mm. Another 5 have AR 15s with optics and cans, in case they have to be fired indoors. The rest of the officers who carry rifles have to provide their own. Each officer goes through a one week basic training course before they are allowed to carry a rifle on patrol that covers, among other things, when it is appropriate to employ a high power rifle, and when it is not.
There are advantages and disadvantages to every firearm for police work, from handguns, to shotguns, to rifles. As someone pointed out earlier, we are not the military, we are the civilian police. But years ago, before we issued rifles, I got to find out what it felt like to be pinned down by a sniper who was armed with a rifle while another officer lay dead a few feet from me. At that time we had only handguns and two shotguns (useless) between us. So we do need rifles, and a good balance of types them so that you can respond to a variety of threats.
Regardless, I would not feel the least bit "under-gunned" to have a pistol caliber carbine for my patrol rifle. As several have quite correctly pointed out, having a carbine that uses interchangeable magazines with the officer's handgun makes very, very, good sense. The whole idea of the patrol carbine is that it is always easier to make a first round hit, and out to longer ranges, with a long gun than it is with a handgun. For the patrol officer having a weapon that could be fired accurately out to 100 yards would be our goal. The key is shot placement. An officer who hits what he is aiming at makes everyone safer.
As an investigator with 20 years of experience I have attended numerous autopsies over the years. Over the last few years most of the gunshot deaths that I've seen have been from "popgun" 9mms. They were all just as dead as the one I saw recently who was shot by a 7.62x39mm. One of the guys that I saw killed with a "popgun" 9mm was riding in the backseat of a large, fullsize car. The popgun round penetrated the steel trunklid, penetrated the front wall of the trunk, went through the seat, into his body, and killed him. Actually two rounds did, side-by-side. When he was lying there on the table for the post mortem exam I don't think he really cared too much about whose book said what about stopping power.
I started reading this thread because I was interested in buying my 13 year old son a semi-auto carbine for plinking. While I find the Hi-Point to be almost unbelievably ugly looking, I had heard that they worked. With 9mm ammo being cheap, and us already owning a couple of these worthless popguns (like the one that I carry on duty), a 9mm Hi-Point sounded good for the kid. Sorry if I rambled on too long. But I wanted to present a little different viewpoint than you were getting from another LEO.
If your pistol caliber carbine is dependable, I'd not hesitate for a moment to use it as a tactical weapon, as long as I kept it's limitations in mind.

Ridge
March 23, 2006, 03:11 AM
Pistol Caliber Carbine=Good for 25-100 yard use.

355Ssigfan=Should be put on the rubber gun squad.
(I don't have anything against LEO's....it's just guys with attitudes like 355 Sigfan I have a problem with being able to walk streets armed,man you seem like you're under alot of pressure,switch to de-caf)

355sigfan
March 23, 2006, 03:25 AM
Ridge your post was a blatent personal attack. You don't know know me enough to make that characterization. Your post is being reported. If your going to post here try to follow the Highroads rules regarding posting.
Pat

DJon
March 23, 2006, 05:11 AM
dz86

I have purchased two of the Hi-Point Rifles for two teenage boys they have
shot multiple rounds thru them as a matter of fact one had to be returned do to mechanical problems after several hundreds of rounds, They have out grown those and went to bigger calibers but for a early teenager these are very dependable weapons, They will take a lot of abuse and I had very minimal trouble with them and when I did have problems they were usually needing a good cleaning usually to remove some outdoor objects from them having them in the woods.

355sigfan
March 23, 2006, 05:28 AM
QUOTE

As an investigator with 20 years of experience I have attended numerous autopsies over the years. Over the last few years most of the gunshot deaths that I've seen have been from "popgun" 9mms. They were all just as dead as the one I saw recently who was shot by a 7.62x39mm. One of the guys that I saw killed with a "popgun" 9mm was riding in the backseat of a large, fullsize car. The popgun round penetrated the steel trunklid, penetrated

END QUOTE

Really. THen you have seen the difference in rifle vs pistol wounds. I have seen my share of gunshot wounds. Rifle wounds are far worse. You must have been to a sucide where no head remains with a rifle or a shotgun. With handguns its not anywhere near as bad. The eyes puff out a bit, the head swells. But nothing too dramatic.

I have been an investigator for most of my 6 plus years. I have been a firearms instructor most of that time as well. I can tell you there is a huge difference in stopping power between handguns and rifle rounds. If you have seen shootings you know this to be true. Another fun fact for you 75% of all people shot in the US with pistols live. 75% of all people shot in the US with rifles die. Like I said before there is a huge difference in the stopping power potential between your common service handgun calibers and your intermediate rifle calibers.

I do agree with you on shotplacement thats a given.

As far as interchangability of ammo with your pistol this is only an advantage for the bean counters not for the guys on the street. With an AR15 and one spare mag you will have as much or more ammo than a pistol caliber carbine using pistol mags combined with the ammo on your belt.

While its true every weapon system has strengths and weakness. Pistol caliber carbines have no strenths that apply to law enforcement. Pistol caliber carbines can be used on in door ranges. Great who cares. Pistol caliber carbines have less range than 223 carbines, they have far less stopping power, they overpenetrate in homes and other building materials compared to 223 carbines, they can't defeat body armor yet 223's can. 223 carbines also have more ammunition capacity.

The real reason for pistol caliber carbines is political. Some agencies are hamstrung by liberal politicians. And a pistol caliber carbine is better than no long gun at all. But from a gun fighting standpoint compared to 223 carbines they suck.

Compared to 12 gauge shotguns they still come out on the bottom so long as your shotgun has rifle sights and you have slugs available.

Your analagy about being just as dead with a 9mm hole vs a 7.62 round is a bit silly. You would be just as dead with a 22 lr hole in you but do you suggest we start arming ourselves with Ruger 10-22's.


Pat

ROAshooter
March 23, 2006, 08:02 AM
Dont you all know 355sig.....is RIGHT!!!
And all these attacks....against him....such a waste of time.
You all must remember he is a sensitive man with feelings.....just look at all the other times people have attacked him..for no apparent reason.
I have a greater appreciation for his stressful LEO duties....knowing his background.from Bethal AK.population of less than six thousand. And having only twelve or so other LEO brothers to back him up. All that responsibility!
And all the experince of six plus years.....he is nearing burnout..so give him a break!!!
Im here for ya Patsy....I'll back ya up....

Correia
March 23, 2006, 10:50 AM
And this thread slinks off to die.


dz86, welcome to the High Road. It is always good to have another experienced poster with a different perspective.

This thread is done.

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