[CB900F]

Fella's;

Did anybody here have any actual experience with the old 'cookie cutter' ammo? I think it came from PMC & was a hollow cylinder with a base that shed after leaving the barrel. Very light for caliber projectiles that were purported to do amazing things by the ad dept. I don't see them around anymore & wondered if they're still on the market? If not, was it just lack of acceptance by the shooting public, or didn't they work as well as the ad dept. thought they should have?

900F

[Jim Watson]

I recall advertising and articles about the round you are talking about. Actual experience is going to be hard to find. I mean it was offered as a gunfighting load, right? Who is going to trust his life to such a gimmick by loading a defense gun with it AND be unlucky enough to have to use it?
Same with a lot of these other wunderbullets.

[Third_Rail]

They're fantastic for cutting through soft armor, and thus were banned by the BATFE.

[Jim Watson]

I don't think so. The originals were made of brass or bronze which the BATF does not trust Americans with, so PMC started making the bullets out of pure copper which is not considered "armor piercing."

[Striker]

I still have a box.

They are a bronze alloy cylinder with a gas check type base that falls off after leaving the muzzle.

PMC also made a hyper velocity round with light weight nylon hollow point wadcutter (like a hollow based WC loaded backwards) style bullet called ThunderZap. IIRC it was hyped for use by air marshals. Suppposedly it was a short ranged round, lethal at 15-20 yards or so, but shed velocity amd energy quicky and so was purported to safe beyond that range.

[Third_Rail]

Jim Watson, pure copper IS considered AP by the BATFE. Anything over 25% of the bullet weight being anything but lead, IIRC.

[RyanM]

Jim Watson, pure copper IS considered AP by the BATFE. Anything over 25% of the bullet weight being anything but lead, IIRC.

That's only if there is any lead to begin with. Barnes XTP pistol bullets are legal because they're copper only. The law is that the jacket (regardless of material) can't weigh more than a certain % (probably 25, like you said) of the total bullet weight (regardless of the material of the core). An all-copper bullet has no jacket (the copper is the core). But if you drop a single pellet of lead birdshot into the hollowpoint, it becomes illegal. A lead-jacketed, copper-cored bullet would also be illegal, if the lead makes up a sufficient % of the bullet's total weight.

Crazy? You bet it is.

[grendelbane]

These bullets were also referred to as "Fosdick's", because of the popular Dick Tracy cartoon character.

I don't see how their all copper construction could be considered AP. Other all copper bullets exist. The frangible bullets that are becoming more popular are basically sintered copper/tin alloys. They have no jacket, and no lead.

The AP bullet ban is not well written, but, try and write one that is! I think it would be almost impossible to write a law broad enough to stop the sale of the bullets that are considered undesirable, without being so broad that it would outlaw many bullets that are not considered undesireable.

If the law is based on performance, then almost all of our rifle bullets become banned, because the majority of them will pierce kevlar even when fired from handgun length barrels.

So construction, while not a perfect solution, is better than what could have been.:scrutiny:

[M2 Carbine]

I've got a couple 38 Special rounds left. I think they were also made in 44 Special.
They were advertised as the fastest pistol bullet sold. I chronographed them from a S&W 2 inch J frame and as I recall they were doing 1,600+ fps.

I kept giving them to friends for defense loads and when I got around to buying a couple more boxes they weren't available anymore.

I never heard how they did in real shootings but the tests were impressive. They actually did cut a core out of a target, even through wood.

[RyanM]

The AP bullet ban is not well written, but, try and write one that is! I think it would be almost impossible to write a law broad enough to stop the sale of the bullets that are considered undesirable, without being so broad that it would outlaw many bullets that are not considered undesireable.

If the law is based on performance, then almost all of our rifle bullets become banned, because the majority of them will pierce kevlar even when fired from handgun length barrels.

So construction, while not a perfect solution, is better than what could have been.

How about something like...

§ 6121. Certain bullets prohibited.
(a) Offense defined.--It is unlawful for any person to possess, use or attempt to use a KTW teflon-coated bullet or other armor-piercing ammunition while committing or attempting to commit a crime of violence as defined in section 6102 (relating to definitions).

(b) Grading.--An offense under this section constitutes a felony of the third degree.

(c) Sentencing.--Any person who is convicted in any court of this Commonwealth of a crime of violence and who uses or carries, in the commission of that crime, a firearm loaded with KTW ammunition or any person who violates this section shall, in addition to the punishment provided for the commission of the crime, be sentenced to a term of imprisonment for not less than five years. Notwithstanding any other provision of law, the court shall not suspend the sentence of any person convicted of a crime subject to this subsection nor place him on probation nor shall the term of imprisonment run concurrently with any other term of imprisonment including that imposed for the crime in which the KTW ammunition was being used or carried. No person sentenced under this subsection shall be eligible for parole.

(d) Definition.--As used in this section the term "armor-piercing ammunition" means ammunition which, when or if fired from any firearm as defined in section 6102 that is used or attempted to be used in violation of subsection (a) under the test procedure of the National Institute of Law Enforcement and Criminal Justice Standard for the Ballistics Resistance of Police Body Armor promulgated December 1978, is determined to be capable of penetrating bullet-resistant apparel or body armor meeting the requirements of Type IIA of Standard NILECJ-STD- 0101.01 as formulated by the United States Department of Justice and published in December of 1978.

§ 6102. Definitions.

"Firearm."
Any pistol or revolver with a barrel length less than 15 inches, any shotgun with a barrel length less than 18 inches or any rifle with a barrel length less than 16 inches, or any pistol, revolver, rifle or shotgun with an overall length of less than 26 inches. The barrel length of a firearm shall be determined by measuring from the muzzle of the barrel to the face of the closed action, bolt or cylinder, whichever is applicable.

-----------------

Defines armor piercing as being actually armor piercing, and makes it so the ammo is legal to own and use unless you use it in a crime. It's not illegal unless you do something else illegal first. Works for me. Too bad we've got federal laws on top of those.

[M2 Carbine]

I found the chronograph files on a old "Professional Write" program that I used 10+ years ago.

That 38 Special PMC was doing 1313 fps from my 2 inch J Frame.:)

[alwilliam]

here is apic of some tubular AP rounds that the US Goverment used in the 1990s

[Giolli Joker]

PMC Ultramag: http://www.thegunzone.com/fosdicks.html

[alwilliam]

That link has some BS to it...The 45acp rounds were built and issued.

So were 9mm,38spl,357mag,45acp magnum and 9mm magnum.

Here is a U.S. issue 45acp tubular next to a kaswer turbo grabber