M1A vs. M14 Question


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Rem700SD
February 23, 2006, 02:25 AM
I was at the range today all by my lonesome when this guy sets up down the line with what looks to be an M1A(308). He sets up and is sighting it in. After what I'd estimate is 20+ rounds and several adjustments later, I distinctly hear the double bang of a 2 shot burst. :what: I've shot enough full auto to know the difference between a rapid double and burst. I asked if that was a double tap or something to that effect, to which he stated the affirmative, with a somewhat sheepish or "deer in the headlights" look. Simply having a full auto on this range can get your membership revoked, and forget about firing one. He packed up pretty quickly and left after that, although he did stay to get his target and declared his rifle sighted in.

After all that, my question is this.

Can an M1A, assuming it's stock, go full auto w/o modification, or did this guy actually have an M-14? :scrutiny:

When I asked him about the gun(before the double) He stated he "inherited it". I'm not going to get this guy in trouble, I'm just curious. I've heard of FALs and ARs wearing out parts and doing this, but never an M1A.

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Telperion
February 23, 2006, 02:48 AM
It's possible to have slam-fire doubles if the hammer and trigger/sear engagement is worn. Lubricating the hammer and trigger can also cause problems.

Real M14s in private hands are very rare. If you wanted to see if he had a real deal M14, look at the right side of the receiver and see if there's a connector assembly and selector switch. You can get fake selector kits these days, so you'd have to look closely for the op rod dismount notch too.

Dienekes
February 23, 2006, 03:18 AM
It "doubled". The M1, M1A, and M14 all use the same basic trigger group. It's usually wear, although amateur gunsmithing or lubricant on the sear and hammer can do it. I have had it happen on about three occasions, all with M1s--last time it was a "triple".

Just a way of saying "get this trigger group off to a good riflesmith and have it worked over properly." Fulton Armory did my last one for about $40 which I thought was reasonable, and good turnaround time.

Rem700SD
February 23, 2006, 04:03 AM
Thanks for the comments; that clarifies it for me. It appeared to be a well worn rifle, so that's probably it.

50 Freak
February 23, 2006, 04:38 AM
By the way, a little pet peeve of mine....

M-14 does not mean the rifle is full auto.

M1A is SpringField Armory's name for their M-14 style rifles. And is only applicable to their own rifles.

So if you hear someone say he has a M1A, then he has a Springfield Armory M14 styled rifle.

If you hear someone say he has a M-14, then it can be from a variety of manufacters, Fulton, Armscorp, LRB etc. And it can be either semi or auto (granted a full auto M-14 is rare as not many are in the hands of private collecters).

Powderman
February 23, 2006, 04:43 AM
A rifle in good repair can also double or triple--depending on your firing position. I was shooting from the bench, and I was using a benchrest technique--firing hand just barely touching the stock, only finger-pad contact with the trigger, gun on front and rear bags.

When the rifle recoiled, it did so normally, and then returned forward afterward--right into my trigger finger. Another bang!

In short, I bump-fired from the seated position.

Grunt
February 23, 2006, 07:00 AM
Yeah, I seen that a few times on the range and it's even happened to me once when you have a very light touch on the rifle. The rifle recoil backwards and your hand and finger sort of stay in the same spot. Now your shoulder pushes it back forwards and if you have a light trigger, it's possible to get it to fire again. Sort of an unintentional bump-fire technique.:o

The_Offset
February 23, 2006, 10:39 AM
I've had this happen on several occasions with my Russian SKS I've had for about 10 years.....
It seemed to do it more often when I first purchased it and the occurance of doubles has declined over the years even though I shoot it far more frequently now then I did when I first got it.

Bwana John
February 23, 2006, 10:42 AM
I can "bump-fire" my M-1a while shooting off sandbags rather easily.

straightShot
February 23, 2006, 11:03 AM
Simply having a full auto on this range can get your membership revoked, and forget about firing one.

That's pet peeve of mine. I won't frequent ranges that don't allow rapid fire and such. On indoor pistol ranges, some don't allow rapid fire. How does one practice for a life-threatening self defense encounter? At the outdoor rifle ranges, if rapid fire is not allowed, how does one practice for high power? Also, switching from rapid fire to full auto shouldn't be that big of a deal, but it is.

Too many ranges and range officers have a one shot, adjust your sights, and put it back in the case mentality. This is disgusting. I won't work my own club's range and partner with these type of ROs (Range Officers) who get upset when shots are "too close together". Pull an evil black rifle out of a case, and they stand over your shoulder to watch your every move. As a shooting community, we need to change our shooting mentality. With safety in mind and common courtesy in effect with respect to the range, full auto is fine.

Full auto shouldn't bother anyone as long as the shooter is safe and doesn't shoot up baffle boards and supports. In addition, one should police his or her brass. In addition, one should allow the RO who's working the range to fire a few mags as well for fun...

rant off

straightShot

Mikee Loxxer
February 23, 2006, 12:00 PM
At the outdoor rifle ranges, if rapid fire is not allowed, how does one practice for high power?

I never thought of rapid fire during a high power match as being anything like bump fire or full auto. During matches I have shot rapid fire was a shot fired once approximatley every 7-9 seconds. Slow fiire is at a rate of about a round a minute. Shooting any faster than a round once every 7-9 seconds would be a waste as you would be lucky to hit the target at 200+ yards.

That being said I can see your point. I can also see why they do not allow it. Most shooters cannot control their muzzles during full auto/bump fire so as to prevent rounds from skipping over the berm. This is a big concern as rounds leaving the range can often endanger the very existence of the shooting range. The club I am a member of requires that the board approve members to be able to shoot full auto (their rule is that if it sounds full auto it is as good as full auto). Only three rounds can be loaded into the feeding device of a machine gun at a time. If I were a machine gunner this would not make me happy. Luckily I like making every round count.

Gewehr98
February 23, 2006, 01:46 PM
As they sprayed bullets everywhere but into their targets. :fire:

MechAg94
February 23, 2006, 02:21 PM
I have doubled an M1 and an M1A. I was milking the trigger though.

Car Knocker
February 23, 2006, 03:11 PM
I've had this happen on several occasions with my Russian SKS I've had for about 10 years.....
It seemed to do it more often when I first purchased it and the occurance of doubles has declined over the years even though I shoot it far more frequently now then I did when I first got it.

Have you disassembled the bolt and cleaned the cosmolene out of the firing pin channel?

cgv69
February 23, 2006, 03:46 PM
In short, I bump-fired from the seated position.

That was my guess when I read it. I know because I've done the same thing without trying to by not holding my weapon correctly. That's probably why he looked sheepish, because he knew he screwed up and not because he had an illegal weapon.

M-14 does not mean the rifle is full auto.

I agree with you too. Regardless of what Springfield wants to call them, they are all M-14's in my book regardless of who made them or if they are semi-auto or select fire.

Rem700SD
February 23, 2006, 05:12 PM
Please forgive the nomenclature. I was simply trying to differentiate the "civvie" from the automatic. I sympathize with the people with the no full auto rules. I go to my parents' ranch to get my full auto and more recreational/plinking fix. It's 3.5 hours away from my house though.

However, this range is in an area of encroaching urban sprawl area, and I guess I'm fortunate to have a 300 yd range that is 15 min. away. I understand the reasons for the rules, and that helps me "cope". A stray round in the wrong direction, and some lucky/unlucky homeowner gets a much bigger yard....

Lucky
February 23, 2006, 05:28 PM
If he didn't check his target, did you look at it after? How was it, the 2 shot group?

Dave Markowitz
February 23, 2006, 06:42 PM
There is a difference between bump firing and doubling. Bump firing requires that the trigger gets pressed for each shot. Doubling is the result of a malfunction, in which one press of the trigger results in two shots.

The_Offset
February 24, 2006, 10:29 AM
Yes I did, Car Knocker. Cleaning the rifle was the 1st thing I did with it. I did a complete takedown and cleaning as described here: http://will.mylanders.com/shot/sks/

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