[Alan Fud]

Assume that a localized Y2K / 9-11 type event happened in your area and you are moving your family to safey and are armed with a .223 (Ruger, AR15, AK, whatever) with a 20 or 30 or 40 round magazine and you encounter a hungry grizzly.

Would the .223 stop / deter the bear especially if you sprayed him with a full magazine or would you just be wasting your time?

[Dave R]

Like any situation with a round too small for the game...

If you can get the right placement, it will work. .223 will penetrate a skull. Might penetrate to heart/lung area, if you get a side shot. But not through a shoulder or major bone.

If the bear charges, I don't think you'll stop him. You won't have time to get off 30 shots. And unless one hits a vital, I don't think the bear will die in time to save you.

Read Keith Rogan's account of his attack on TFL. Happened too fast for him to get off a single shot. His buddy had to shoot the bear off him.

[cratz2]

'Shot placement is everything' esp when shooting a grizzly with a 223.

In the eye, ear or nose, it'd probably stop one but I would bet stopping one by shooting into the torso indiscriminately.

[Preacherman]

Shoot at his toenails... you might make him trip! :D

[Redlg155]

Eventually kill? Yes.

Deter? If you hit a soft target such as the nose or eyes, yes.

As for stopping an angry charge of a bear intent on getting to you no matter what? I think you are in big trouble.

Shots to the torso will not have much of an effect, even if you are using green tip penetrator type military ammo.

It's hard to get an idea of just how immense a grizzly is until you actually get to see one up close. Then you realize just how puny humans are in the animal world!

Good Shooting
Red

[Tamara]

Grizzly season down there in FL already, Fud? ;)

[Redlg155]

Grizzly season down there in FL already, Fud?

I don't know where Fud is in Florida, but up here we have black bears that are pretty abundant.

I'm more worried about water mocassins, rattlers and gators in these parts to think about bears.:D

Good Shooting
Red

[Alan Fud]

Tamara, I'm moving back up north in a few months (from the Everglade swamps to the hills of PA) -- just can't take this endless heat any longer ... I wanna see snow again!

... you can take the northerner out of the snow but you can't take the snow out of the northerner ... ;)

[SteelyDan]

Have to admit, this is a new twist on the legitimate "would this stop a bear" questions. The short answer is that I don't know and I wouldn't volunteer to find out. They do a lot of false charges, and you can get in big trouble unless there are powder burns accompanying the entry holes. But under your scenario I assume you'd bend the rules a bit, and then maybe you'd have a chance. Maybe.

[Wildalaska]

'Shot placement is everything' esp when shooting a grizzly with a 223.

Many of the Native Alaskans use 17 Remss or 222/223 on Polar Bear...

WildmoregutsthanmeAlaska

[WonderNine]

One .223 to the skull will stop it instantly of course. The .223 round has alot of power, a few of them would really blow the crap out of a grizzly coming out of a 20" barrel.

[Wildalaska]

One .223 to the skull will stop it instantly of course. The .223 round has alot of power, a few of them would really blow the crap out of a grizzly coming out of a 20" barrel.

Ever seen a grizzly skull?

WildjustcuriousAlaska

[dude]

If he is charging, just make sure your .223 rifle fits nicely up your *ss!!


.......an AR would be a nasty inserition with that front sight post, not to mention the lower reciever. A flat-top might make it easier though.

[spacemanspiff]

geez, last summer a buddy of mine THREW a shotgun at a bear and it lost interest, just long enough for his two fishing buddies to put it down with their ruger 9mm and sks rifle.
:D

[Wildalaska]

Spiff thats the guy who tossed the shotgun in the river when the bear charged...and then he jumped in the river!!!

WilddivedivediveAalaska

[WonderNine]

Ever seen a grizzly skull?

WildjustcuriousAlaska

The other day I shot a clean hole through an inch of plate steel at 25 yards with .223.

The .222 just made a small dent.

Next time you see a grizzly skull, let me know if they are made out of inch and a half thick plated steel.

[WonderNine]

If he is charging, just make sure your .223 rifle fits nicely up your *ss!!


.......an AR would be a nasty inserition with that front sight post, not to mention the lower reciever. A flat-top might make it easier though.

Remove the bayonet first! :eek:

:D :D :D :D

[Redlg155]

Next time you see a grizzly skull, let me know if they are made out of inch and a half thick plated steel.

Try shooting at that plate of steel at an angle and see if it penetrates. More than likely it won't. The same thing for a grizzly skull.

Good Shooting
Red

[El Tejon]

A .223 will not stop a grizzly, but it will stop a unicorn.

The Bears! Aaaaaahhh!

[Kentucky Rifle]

KR

[geekay]

throw it down in front of the bear it might give you time to get something better.

[Steel]

Will a pellet gun stop a Mastiff or a Rottweiler ? If your lucky, but I wouldn't want to find out

[Soap]

An icepick with penetrate a grizzly skull too. Any volunteers to see if it stops them? Where are the mythical goats when you need them!? :D

[Skunkabilly]

A .223 will not stop a grizzly, but it will stop a unicorn.

The Bears! Aaaaaahhh!

But the real question is, will it stop a narwhal?

[TrapperReady]

I'm certainly no expert at this, but remember that poaching large (like elephant-sized) game in Africa is frequently done with AK-47s and their variants.

A whole mess of ball ammo fired into just about anything at close range is likely to do some major damage. Whether it would be enough damage in a short enough time is entirely open for debate.

[Topgun]

That's a lot of commotion coming out of that muzzle. Although grizzlies look like a compressed 5 people in size, I would think head shots would do it.
Assuming multiple hits. If he's within 30 feet, I would try hiding or evading while firing. LOTS OF TIMES.

Course one could also have a .25 Raven for a backup if it failed.

[Navy joe]

The other day I shot a clean hole through an inch of plate steel at 25 yards with .223.

What ammo, what steel? .222 is ballistically similar, anything it didn't do is bullet design.

Green tip is an ok penetrator, but not an inch of anything quality. 3/8" of good steel will stop FMJ .223 with no cratering, see it all the time with steel reactive targets. One had a neat hole in it, I suspicion .30 cal and black tipped, didn't even look like it slowed down.

I think that your steel is one small step above pig iron. I think .223 FMJ or M855 will punch a hole in the bear's skull. I think you better be a good shot under extreme pressure. I think that most of us will be lucky to ever see a grizzly in the wild and if we do we should take its picture and enjoy the experience, it's kinda a rare sight.


next up, will .17HMP stop a determined alligator attack...

[twoblink]

I don't know about a headshot.. The skull is THICK..

Also, whatever you think about a .223, I can tell you that a 9mm will just piss it off. I hear statements at gun stores etc.. trust me, my friend's husband is a forest ranger up in Oregon... he says up in the woods, they don't bother drawing their glocks at bears...

Also, outrunning a bear is just rediculous; said by those who think bears are all named Paddington. They have a 35mph groundspeed.. Oh, and did I mention that bears climb about 10x better than you? Oh, and they can probably swim faster?

I'd go with a 308 and leave the 223...

[Country Boy]

I wouldn't count on hits to the bear's center of mass. I wouldn't even count on a direct hit to the heart; I've read of Cape Buff or Elephants that had hearts that were shot and torn to shreds, but kept going. Shots to the central nerveous system (CNS) would be the best bet.

First rule of a gunfight: bring a gun. Is a .223 adequate? I would say a big NO. If that was the only thing I had though, and there was no route of escape, I would definitely use it, and not consider it a waste of time. Who knows what would happen? You could fire once, miss, and the beast goes running the other way. You could empty the entire magazine into it's head, turning most of the brain into mush, and it still might have enough reflex left to make you require the services of a plastic surgeon or undertaker. A lot of it would depend on the disposition of the griz.

Really though, if you were moving your family to freedom, I doubt you would run into a griz. I wouldn't count on seeing one near any major (or even minor) roads. Even if you were hiking, you'd have to get into some backcountry to find a griz. And even if you were in the backcountry with your family, your situational awareness would have to go down the tubes not to see or hear a major animal like that. I suppose it could be a worry though.

[El Tejon]

two, yeah, but how fast can an unicorn run or climb?:D

[Kinsman]

Just like WildwayupthereinAlaska said, you ever seen the skull of a grizzle-bear? Or a still breathing one? Those bears are bigger than you think. they stand no less than eighteen and a half feet tall, weigh six or eight ton, and by the time you see them they are maybe gonna eat you no matter what you shoot 'em with. 10-gauge slugs might kill them.....eventually. There is a lot of fat in those bodies, and they plug up quick. True, if you get a shot through the lungs, they will eventually fill with blood, eventually, but a .223 will not kill them quick enough for me to try it. That 155-grain bullet will vaporize on that thick skull.

Try the .375 or some other big game killer. From far away.

[Country Boy]

If I only have a .223, the Rifle Fairy isn't going to drop a .308 Win or a .375 H&H in my hands.

A .223 and a chance beats a sharp stick and a chance. If given a choice, I would rather have a .375 and a backup shooter.

[Groucho]

If you're going to use a .223 on a Grizzly, I suggest you remove the front sight first. That way it won't hurt so badly when the bear shoves the rifle up your a$$. :eek: :D

Seriously (and I was just joking before), you don't want to try it unless it's a last ditch effort. If you're going into big bear country, take a big bear rifle with you or better yet, take a guide who knows what they're doing. I've seen Grizzly bears only at the zoo and that's the only way I wish to see one. They are really, really big and I understand they have bad attitudes.

Groucho

[M. Jager]

Will a .223 stop a griz? - Don't ask me, never tried it.
Me thinks if charged by a griz and all you have is a .223 you can:
A. Give up and pray for divine intervention.
B. Use that .223 and see what you can do.
hmmm.....decissions, decissions......

[4v50 Gary]

Graham Greene, who was Sgt. Idi Amin's commanding officer reports that one askari took out a rhino by emptying his Sten gun into it. Guess with shot placement and good burst fire (via trigger control) the .223 can take out a grizzly; but I wouldn't want to be the fellow trying it.

[spacemanspiff]

Just like WildwayupthereinAlaska said, you ever seen the skull of a grizzle-bear? Or a still breathing one? Those bears are bigger than you think. they stand no less than eighteen and a half feet tall, weigh six or eight ton, and by the time you see them they are maybe gonna eat you no matter what you shoot 'em with. 10-gauge slugs might kill them.....eventually. There is a lot of fat in those bodies, and they plug up quick. True, if you get a shot through the lungs, they will eventually fill with blood, eventually, but a .223 will not kill them quick enough for me to try it. That 155-grain bullet will vaporize on that thick skull.
hehe, reminds me of how some arachnophobes describe spiders...only in this case they are only slightly exaggerating. (that spider had 17 legs, 33 eyes, 10 inch fangs and enough poison to drop an elephant!)

however, its been mentioned, and i'm not sure if its sunk in, but bears can move waaaaay faster than you can. 30 feet? thats ten yards. if you've let the bear get that close to you, you're already in deep feces. you think you'd hear them coming? they can move through the brush without making a sound if they want to. black bears are better climbers than brown/grizzlys are. black bears are also much smaller and have killed more humans than browns/grizzlys. they are not scared off as easily.
about the only time a brown bear will attack you is if you come between mama bear and baby bear, or if you come across its kill. any other time and that bear will most likely be pooping its own pants because a scary biped just crossed its path.

[Gmac]

:D To paraphrase the late Elmer Keith " the .223 is a damned adequate Poodle cartridge!" By the way,was that a hollow point that penetrated 1 inch steel plate? ( Putting on Nomex suit and flame retardent long johns !!!!)

[JeFF D]

1 inch steel with .223??
I've failed to penetrate 3/4" steel everytime with hot loaded 8mm mauser and steel core 7.62x54r!

Though the 223 would take a grizzly with good shot placement like the others said I think you'd be better off with a Guide gun. :)

[Ol' Badger]

1st. Get 50 round drum.
2nd. Empty 50 round drum into bear.
3rd. Bear P.O.ed at you now and knowing he's going to die he will do something so special that Hunters will talk about for years to come.
4th. Try to die with some dignity and stop screaming when the Bear ripps your testicals off and shows them to you.

[El Tejon]

Ol' Tejon, it can be even shorter:

1. Realize that killer bears are complete fiction just like French goats or unicorns and get on with life. Carry .223 with smile on your face and song in your heart.

[Kinsman]

hehe, reminds me of how some arachnophobes describe spiders...only in this case they are only slightly exaggerating.

....OK, them grizzle bears made me poop my pants once......

[Art Eatman]

And the grizzly sez to Fud, "Now, admit it, Alan. You're not really out here to hunt, are you?"

:), Art

Grammaw wouldn't lemme tell the whole joke. :(

[AmericanFreeBird]

Stop quickly no, kill eventually after he tears you to peices yes.

[Correia]

Six or eight ton bear? :D lol

I don't think I would use a .223 on any 16,000 pound mammal. RPG maybe...

[Steve Smith]

Art, you crack me up!

[Double Maduro]

There was a letter to Field & Stream a few months ago where a guy asked if his handgun, not sure think it was a .40 would stop a grizzly bear charge.

The answer was that the Alaska Dept of Fish and Game has no record of a succesful defense from a grizzly attack with a hand gun. They said that SOMETIMES the bear died but never before hurting the shooter. The person answering said that he had shot a dead grizzly in the head with a .357 and it bounced off.

If you have to defend yourself from a grizzly with a .223 fire 3 or 4 shots and see what happens. While the bear is still coming, fire 3 or 4 more and check for reaction. Repeat this until you have 1 round left.

Save this last round for when the bear has you on the ground and shove the barrel of your .223 into any opening in the skull, mouth, ear, eye and pull the trigger. You might have a chance if the bear doesn't land on you and squash you.

Your chances of being attacked by a grizzly are about as great as being struck by lightning. More people die each year from bee stings than either of the above. Many more people have been hurt by black bears than grizzlies simply because the two make contact more often.

The same rules apply in bear country as in civilized country. BE AWARE, make noise, don't startle anything and never get between a mother and baby anything.

[seeker_two]

I wasn't thinking THAT big...:what:

Largest Game Taken w/ .223 Thread (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18536)

[GD]

A young man I know went on a hunting trip in Montana a few years back. With him were an assortment of hunters and weapons. One of the guys had a .223 and came across a grizzly on a meadow. Unfortunately he took several shots and my young friend witnessed a man die. I would never carry a small calibre in griz country.

[cratz2]

Lots of conflicting information on this thread... well, either conflicting or incomplete. Here's what I know for sure:

I've shot 3/8" steel with FMJ 22-250 ammo and if it's hits straight on or maybe +/- 10 degrees, it will sail right through it and it looks like it melts the steel on the way out. Shoot that same load at that same steel at a 30 degree angle and it's going to leave about a 2" long scratch and not much else. Same thing with a grizzly skull. It's round, man! Could I consistantly hit a part of a grizzly skull to ensure straight on penetration? I'd like to think so... if I had the time for the shot. But when being charged, I sure wouldn't want to make that bet. Or that shot. I believe that the Indians that hunt with 22LR (and other various small bore choices) shoot through the eye or the ear. That's soft tissue with no 'skull' between the muzzle and the brain. Apples and oranges.

[spacemanspiff]

double maduro, the closest that i know of and was briefly hinted at earlier in this thread, when three guys fishing on the russian river late at night last summer and a bear came up on them. the first guy couldnt recall if his shotgun had a round in the chamber so made the split second decision to throw the shotgun at the bear while screaming bloody murder and dove underwater.
his two buddies heard the blood curdling screams, saw the bear sans the first guy, thought the worst had happened, and unloaded, hitting the bear from close range (iirc, less than ten yards) at least 7 times, with a 9mm ruger and a sks rifle. who hit it the most is unknown.

the guys couldnt find the shotgun anywhere afterwards, a couple days later another angler hooked into it and pulled it up. it was chambered.

fish and game said the shots were lucky as they shattered the bears shoulder.

the locals on the kenai peninsula seemed to think that killing the bear was unncecessary. but fish and game officials said otherwise.

edit - and further reflection brings to mind that last summer a person fishing in east anchorage killed a bear with a .44 magnum. i may have the details on that mixed up, maybe wildiknowcraploadsmorecausei'msomucholderalaska remembers that.


just kidding wildalaska, hehe

[gun-fucious]

just carry an AR15 and a Khukuri
and growl as you walk about
:evil:

[Johnny Guest]

Alan, you asked about grizzly bear, but a few entries later, specified you were moving from FL to PA. I seriously doubt you'll find any free roaming grizzly, or brown, bear either place.

If it's any comfort to your need for adventure, there are a LOT more black bear attacks recorded than any other kind. On the other hand, fending off a black bear with a .223 should be no trick for one who repells 'gators with a .40 pistol.

For whatever it's worth, I was in a hunting camp but not on the scene when one of our guides killed a wounded black bear with a .357 while it was charging a client. I've also seen tape in which a fractious black bear was killed by a game warden, again with a .357. I chatted with a retired Mountie who killed a brown bear with 5th round from a .38 Spl. S&W, shooting upward through its open mouth. Again, I was NOT present for any of these adventures.

Bill Jordan, in his book, No Second Place Winner wrote, "In my experience, most adventures are the result of poor planning, and the person didn't realize he was having until he was safe at home, which was where he wished he was at the time." (The quote may not be exact, but the book is easily found.)

In a serious contest, .223 shooter vs. grizzly, I'd bet on the bear.
:p

Art - - - :D

Johnny

[SodaPop]

If a black bear can be killed with a 22LR rifle I'm sure 30rds from a Mini 14 could kill a grizzly.


Depending on where you move to in PA, black bear are becoming a problem. There have been 3 black bear sightings within 15 miles of Philadelphia. Mostly black bear crossing the Delaware river from North Jersey. Nobody hunts black bear so they are getting a little out of control.

[Peetmoss]

A 223 and a grizzly thats real hunting :D At best a 50/50 shot of the hunter living through the expierance. Nothing like giving the game a real good chance of killing you for a real rush LOL:rolleyes:

[HarryB]

The effectiveness also depends on if you're hunting grizzly, or if Mr. Griz is hunting you.

[dude]

keep your eye on the Discovery Channel for the footage they have on one of their 'Wild Discovery' series programs. It shows a very (very) POed mamma Brown Bear charging across 150 yards or so of rather flat terrian with sparce trees at a young male between her and her cubs. The speed is quite frightening!! Up to 35 mph. That's just under 80 feet per second.

So you are gonna be calm and cool enough for a head shot or two with your AR when mamma is charging down on you in-and-out of view??..........NO WAY you would get an accurate head shot if she was after you as the head was bobbing up and down with her strides and terrian/trees!

Cheack out the footage and you will see a 45-70, .44mag pistol and/or .12 guage as the smallest thing you would ever want in agressive Brown Bear country!!

[Johnny Guest]

You wrote, "Up to 35 mph. That's just under 80 feet per second. "
Really, it's more like 51 fps. One mph is about 1.45 feet per second.

Still pretty swuft, though. :D

Johnny

[dude]

you are correct!!!

I was wrong.


hmmmm, let's see........uh, a mile being 5280 feet at 60mph would equal one mile a minute no?

so:
- 'if' 5280feet/60seconds=88feet/sec
- 'then' 30mph = 44 feet/sec

I think that's right. Sorry, no one said there would be math.

.................either way that bruin is-a'movin!

[Arcli9ht]

Wait, so didn't we just find a potential use for a bayonet while hunting? Piss off the bear with the first 30 .223 rounds, then finish him with the bayo while he is tearing you apart? :uhoh:

/Arcli9ht

[dude]

I stole the first 1/2 of your sig line


..........hope you don't mind!
won't use it here though


I only need the first 1/2 as the sites I will use it on are very nerdy and will get it right away! (places like the Cult of the P7 and a New Beetle BB)

[Sir Galahad]

Anyone going after a grizzly with a .223, .22LR, or .17HR----

Please let me know when you plan on doing this. I will supply you with a special mini-camcorder that straps to your head. I will ask that before you shoot, you press "record". The camcorder is hermetically sealed and will survive the trip through the bear's digestive tract. It has a tracking device so I'll know where to find the scat pile to retrieve my camera. I plan on selling copies of the video I'll retrieve. Sorry you won't be able to see it...:evil:

[J-Man]

OK, look at it this way. It all depends on what the Griz wants from you. Is it trying to spook you or eat you. Grizzlys are incredibly tough and once they are on a determined charge you are probably out of luck. A shot through the eye and into the brain might do the trick but apart from central nervous system destruction you are most likely not going to stop a charge. Eventually kill it? Maybe. But stop it? Hmm....
You said local 9-11 type incident but if there is any sort of systemic social collapse you will have a far greater problem with all the new feral dogs out there. There are over 60 million pet dogs in the US and if only, say, one percent survive and form packs (which all dogs will do) you now have on average 12,000 hungry dogs per state possibly trying to hunt you down. Just something to think about.

[Mark]

Anyone can get lucky, but the odds are a scillion to one that the outcome will be:

Bear - 1

You - 0

[WonderNine]

A semi-auto .223 FMJ is more than adaquate to kill a grizzly ok? You don't need a .375 Win Mag or any of that non-sense, but it certainly wouldn't hurt. I'm not talking one shot stop here unless you get a headshot, but some of you guys make it sound like a .223 is sticks and stones. The bullet is going to hit the grizzly and come out the other side. It has that much power in the small .22 caliber. Grizzly's have been easily taken with .357's!!!

I wouldn't want to trust my life on a single gun though, I'd have backup in case of a jam. Rifle calibers .223 on up have incredible power, there's no sense in pretending otherwise, unless you're trying to make yourself feel better about the .600 nitro express you just bought for the big game hunt.

[WonderNine]

Wait, so didn't we just find a potential use for a bayonet while hunting? Piss off the bear with the first 30 .223 rounds, then finish him with the bayo while he is tearing you apart?

If you live, then next go around don't miss 29 times.

[WonderNine]

What ammo, what steel? .222 is ballistically similar, anything it didn't do is bullet design.

The .223 was FMJ South African surplus. The .222 was hollowpoint reloads. The steel was a thick slab of iron.

I agree that .222 and .223 are ballistically similiar, but only in the way that .380 and .357 SIG are :rolleyes:

[Khornet]

have been known to charge 100 yds after having the heart smashed by a rifle bullet. On the other hand, UNSUSPECTING grizzlies have been neatly dropped with some pretty small calibers.

But we're not talking about sniping, we're talking about STOPPING. I'd say .223 won't do it.

From what I've read, and the few I've seen in Alaska, I wouldn't take on a grizzly with anything less than a bazooka.

[meathammer]

Killing eventually does not equate to stopping a charge. .223 is a varmint round, if a Grizzly is a varmint then I would NOT want to encounter large game. Good luck, and may the force be with you. :uhoh:

[treeprof]

Odd that a .223 bullet of any construction would plow thru a griz, when the bullets from .30-06, .300 Win Mag and 375 H&H Mags (there being no 375 Win "Mag") that my dad, uncle and I have used to take bears ranging from <200 lb blackies to >900 lb Kodiaks (my dad and uncle) have failed to completely penetrate on more than one occasion. Having good penetration thru one side guarantees nothing abt the other side - fragmentation, yaw, bone, etc. can render a bullet pretty impotent w/respect to penetration before it travels too far. That's esp. true of light, fast moving bullets designed to yaw and fragment at high velocity like the .223; they simply don't have the mass retention or penetrating ability after initial penetration. Check out http://www.ammo-oracle.com/ and look at what happens to a .223 after it penetrates. Even a .223 hunting bullet won't make the cut for bear.

Fud, there're a lot of statments being made here by folks who obviously have no experience with bears, have never seen them take multple good hits from a decent sized caliber and still keep trucking, have never had a chance to check out their awesome physical construction while field dressing or caping one, and know zilch abt their anatomy, esp. when it comes to headshots. Cripes, from the front you've got a couple square inches of skull where penetration is likely, and hitting it is going to be pure luck and a largely unrepeatable event under charge.

Snipe one with a small caliber like a Native, yes, doable. But even a .223 is a big step up from a pointy stick and the situation is entirely different from defense. Stop a charging griz with a small bore? Good luck. There's a lot of momentum in a charging bear, and you need momentum, big holes, high bullet mass retention and deep penetration in return. That means big, heavy, well-constructed controlled expansion or solid bullets travelling at at least moderate velocity. Fortunately, you'll be hundred of miles from the nearest griz in Pa, but black bears are no less tenacious. Now, add a .458 SOCOM or other big-bore upper to an AR, and you'd have an acceptable close range bear gun w/the right bullet. I'm think of doing that and taking it as my field gun while working on my research projects in AK.

[RustyHammer]

Will a .223 stop a Grizzly?


Only long enough for him to laugh at you!

:neener:

[TaurusGL]

Are we limited to what gun we can use besides one the uses .223. I'll try it if someone will loan me a SAW:p Of course this doesn't mean I still wouldn't piss my pants as it charged at me.

[Double Maduro]

Taurus's post reminded me of an old joke.

1. What do you do if a Grizzly bear charges you?

2. I don't know, what do you do if a grizzly bear charges you?

1. Throw mud at him.

2. What if there is no mud?

1. Don't worry, there will be mud.

[Navy joe]

The .223 was FMJ South African surplus. The .222 was hollowpoint reloads. The steel was a thick slab of iron.

Most factory .223 offerings list a 55gr FMJ at 3000-3200mV.
Most factory .222Rem offerings list a 55gr FMJ at 2800-3000mV.
6-8% difference in velocity, not hardly equivalent to the difference between .380 and .357Sig. I'm sure I could crank up .222 reloads to step out just as well as .223. I'm also sure that the milspec 5.56 you had was getting gone closer to 3400fps and the core was harder than the lead in the HP.
As I recall from researching about changing a gun from .222 to .223 I just needed to hit it with a .223 finish reamer as the .222 is .060" shorter in headspace. Problem is most commercial .222 rifles such as the one I was eyeballing were made with slower twist barrels. The cartridges themselves are very similar.

A military FMJ projectile is hardly equivalent to a light jacketed HP bullet. A slab of iron is hardly equivalent to steel. I like .223 a lot, just no magic bullets out there.

[ShaiVong]

.223? Are you guys serious? Thats overkill!

Just do what the fisherman did in that salmon commercial, kick em in the junk!

[Sir Galahad]

Wondernine, I also have shot that South African surplus .223 many times through my CZ 527 and I can assure the readers here that it does NOT penetrate 1 inch of plate steel. You need to read up on your metallurgy; steel and iron are two different things.

You make the rather broad statement that .223 will DEFINITELY stop a grizzly. Well, I got that bear intestine-proof camcorder waiting for you anytime you've got the sand to face one with a .223. I've got guys waiting with cash in hand for that video.

Until you've faced Ol' Ephraim, don't state what will or will not stop one as a fact, sir.


Hugh Glass must be spinning in his grave... :rolleyes:

[WonderNine]

You need to read up on your metallurgy; steel and iron are two different things.

Ya...I was extremely drunk when I posted that. So sue me :rolleyes:

Until you've faced Ol' Ephraim, don't state what will or will not stop one as a fact, sir.

I .223 will stop a grizzly, that is fact.

[Sir Galahad]

Wondernine, let me give you a friendly piece of advice. You shouldn't open your mouth when you're drunk. Obviously, you didn't know what you were saying. Therefore, whatever you say will be suspect after your admission.

Now about the Grizz. I'm waiting for you to face the Grizz with a .223 if you can find somewhere where that would be legal to do. I am dead serious. Unless you can back that up, you're just spouting hot air. It is not a fact unless it is a repeatable thing. Just like all the people claiming to have invented cold fusion. Not one has been able to replicate that in a scientific experiment to back up what they say. Now, maybe someone got extremely lucky one time and downed a Grizz with a .223, but that does not a bear-stopper make. So, I see you here making the claim. Now I'd like to see the sand to prove it. So I'll see your .223 and I call. Prove it. The bets are on the table. Let's see those cards.

[PATH]

GRIZZY BIG! BROWN BEAR BIG!

THey weigh over a thousand pounds and can run as fast as a race horse over short distances. Add angry bear and it gets as scary as one could imagine. I would not want to be holding an AR whilst trying to stop a large bear. A black bear fine! A Grizzly or Brown, no thank you!

In Bear country small caliber bad, big monster caliber good!

Remember that a large bear can disembowel you with one swipe!
Please, I implore everyone here on this board, carry large in big bear country!;) Save people money on flowers and sympathy cards!:D

[Dr.Rob]

Yes.

Shoot the guy next to you with the 223, the bear will stop to eat him.

I'm suprised in a thread this long someone else hasn't said it.

[dude]

HA!!!

.............it's about time

I've been waithing for this one: Never go into Brown Bear county with someone you can't outrun!!

[Mark]

Alan,
What a fun thread. Some very interesting posts, but please let me answer your question.

The answer to your question is no, you would not be wasting your time. Attempting to defend yourself and family is not a waste of time. Unfortunately, unless you were carrying about 49 horse shoes and several hundred rabbit's feet you would still be dead or worse very quickly.

In the scenario you describe a grizzly encounter would be the least of your worries. It's the two legged animals you would need to be concerned about.

[stevelyn]

I have friends and family who were raised in rural Alaska and as a matter of practice had always taken a hi-cap .223 when out in a boat or snowmachine. The bears in the interior are generally smaller than their coastal cousins. The idea was that the large number of rounds would stop a charge. But the idea is to practice bear avoidance.
I have since moved to coastal Alaska and after having to deal with bears here on a nightly basis during summer months my first line of defense for an encounter is an 870 stoked Brenneke slugs. If it's a case of having to find a bear and put him down, I rely on .35 cal and up.

[Mute]

A .223 stop a grizzly? Sure! When the grizzly is completely constipated after having ingested you and your rifle, I'm sure he'd be completely immobile.

[M. Jager]

I like Marks idea up to a point, although I think I would would pack something besides rabbits foots. My thinking is that if it didn't work the first time (for the rabbit) I don't want to bet that it work the second. :D

While interesting what exactly are we determining here? Every body knows a .223 is too small for bear, but if its all you got then its alot better than nothing.
Next topic: .223 vs. rouge elephant on Ecstasy .
:evil:
Matt

[treeprof]

rouge elephant

An elephant in make-up? Doesn't sound all that scary. :)

[Sir Galahad]

But it looks like Wondernine was bluffing and folded. So I think it's safe to say people saying .223 will stop Griz are just, well, people that like to talk.

[boing]

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=70682

From: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5384

.223? Not me.

[telewinz]

A charging Grizzly was killed instantly by a single, snap fired .22 long rifle cartridge (documented) so why do you feel you need so much cartridge?:D

[Sir Galahad]

There is also a documented case of a woman struck by a meteorite while lying in bed when that meteorite that came through her roof. But the chances of you being struck by a meteorite while in bed, well....let's say no one is going to place even longshot bets on it. Kind of like placing bets on a guy to survive shooting a Griz with a .22LR. Good way to lose money.

[gun-fucious]

OK how about a backpack fed 5.56 mini gun? or an under slung 40mm M203?

:evil:

In bear country it might be prudent to re upper with something from Tony Rumore:
http://www.tromix.com/2002/2002_images/458_loads_compare_sm.jpg
http://www.tromix.com/Tromix_458.htm
http://www.tromix.com/Projects_o_Tromix.htm

still, plenty of bigger cave bears were dispatched via the pointy stick and yelling method,
IMHO, an AR15 in 5.56 is a tad better than a pointy stick

;)

[scotjute]

Hey Boing!

How you get all those bears to stand still in one spot for that picture?

[Sir Galahad]

A pointy stick makes a bigger hole, than a .223; even more so if tipped with Clovis or Folsom points.:D The flip side to that coin is that Paleolithic hunting was a dangerous undertaking. Also, Paleolithic man hunted in packs, not alone. So the risk was offset by strength in numbers. Even so, plenty were certainly killed not only by bears, but by aurochs, wooly mammoth, and other large game. If Paleolithic man could lay hands on a firearm, you can be assured it would not be a .223. Knapped spear points and even atlatl projectile points stayed large until the larger animals such as the mammoth were gone. In a world where a choice between a .223 and a .45/70 is just a trip down to the gun shop and not having to knap the thing out of a flint nodule, I fail to see the reason why the .223 is even proposed for grizzly at all. And the Marlin .45/70 rifle costs less than most ARs, too.

[Fed168]

Kinda the wrong bear, but a .223 from an HK 53 will stop a black bear.

[Gordon]

I never felt unarmed in any post Jurrasic Park with 30 rounds of green tip penetrator in the HK53 or Car -15. They aren't wearing kevlar and a .22 hole THRU the bruin wound be better than any thing that won't penetrate deeply enough. That said I use a .375H&H and own a .470Nitro.:D

[Kframe]

I'm in really late on this thread, but oh well.

I think that the .223 rifle could stop a charging grizzly...
IF it is an AR/M-16 equipped with the grenade launcher!
;)
-Kframe

[sm]

Many years ago a feller goes on a bear/fishing trip. Been up since dawn fly -fishing, comes in to nap...his rifle in the other tent, everyone is away from camp. Mr. Bear doesn't knock, but gets partially into tent. Ruger MK II 22lr kills bear. LUCK, pure luck, he shot for the eyes. Even though he got his one bear...he slept with his rifle after that.

[H&Hhunter]

Ok,
I can't resist..........

It was a cold and misty day on the Ak Pennisula. The steep cliffs of Yantari Bay eriely echoed the reverberating sound of the pounding surf and sea gulls continiously called out as if to warn the humans of his presense.

Bubba the tourist wanna be bear hunter thumbed the safety on his custom Rigby double stopping rifle. He had complete confidence in this fine double as he had been told by numerous gun store commandos that it was in fact the best stopping rifle built and that a double in .223 was so rare that only a select few would own one.

Bubba was one of the few the stupid the micro caliber stopping gun owners. He had on two occasions used this rifle to stop "fuzzy bugsy death" at short range and once had even killed the rare and elusive "Spotted bambi death of Mississippi".

Bubba was pulled from his lacsadical slack jawed state by a short gruff chuff and a crashing of alder brush at less than 50 feet away.

THE END..........................................

[T.Stahl]

I read the authorities on Svalbard (Spitsbergen) specify a minimum caliber of .308 and a minimum m/e of 2900J (2140lbsft) for rifles carry for protection against polar bears.
The also recommend a magazine capacity of at least five rounds.

I'll (hopefully) go there next year with my brother and few friends and plan to carry my Enfield No.4. There'll be two more rifles in our group of six to eight.

[Sir Galahad]

H&Hhunter, LOL!! :D

[nemesis]

Wondernine said.......
One .223 to the skull will stop it instantly of course. The .223 round has alot of power, a few of them would really blow the crap out of a grizzly coming out of a 20" barrel.

Have you ever taken a good close look at a brown bear skull? I'd guess that your idea would work if you could get overhead and shoot straight down through the skull but the flat and boney angularity, as seen head on, will probably just deflect the bullets.

In my personal and very humble opinion, the folks that usually want to assault brown bears with light caliber weapons are usually folks that haven't spent a lot of time around bears. I don't ask that you like bears but you'd best respect them.

Many bears have really bad breath. Have you ever noticed that?

[sm]

H&H LOL :D

I dunno, I've seen human skulls, gunshot wounds, and things do not always perform as the textbook, math, or internet says it will.

I think I'll stick with my old fashioned views and agree with Ruark. Use Enough Gun, and use a second bullet.

I figure Mr. Murphy will show up instead of Lady Luck---if I were to take a chance.

[Amish]

Velocity = Power. Remeber the little meteor that hit earth long ago. It was small but man was it fast. With the right .223 ammo and rifle, yes you can stop a grizzly.

[Sir Galahad]

Yes, but the Earth wasn't trying to bite the head off the galaxy the meteor hailed from, too. And the Earth couldn't cover the distance between where it is and that galaxy in 15 seconds to bite that galaxy's head off, also. Sorry, but not a good comparison.

IF all you had was a .223, that's one thing. But to grab a .223 when there are perfectly serviceable .45/70s on the shelf...you may wish a meteor would hit that bear.

[Sir Galahad]

And, lest we forget, the Earth is still here and that meteor is sitting in little chunks at the Meteor Crater, AZ gift shop for everyone to put on their shelf as a souvineer or on ranchers porches as doorstops. Seen the meteor crater out there (it's not far from here) and while impressive, the Earth still survived.

[Tamara]

I'll (hopefully) go there next year

To Spitsbergen? On purpose?

Dude, don't you know it's cold up there?

:D

[Blain]

Forget the dinky .223 round and go straight to magnum buckshot (00+) for all you're bear stopping needs!

[roscoe]

Look at the head on that thing (especially compared to the guy), and think about trying to hit the brain! And it is not even that big by Alaskan standards! Yow!


http://hoaxinfo.com/bigbear.htm

[T.Stahl]

To Spitsbergen? On purpose?

Dude, don't you know it's cold up there?

:D

Naah, it's not THAT cold. Over the last decades ('61-'90) the lowest temperatures in July have been just around the freezing point, with average temperatures around +6°C. That is not yet "cold".

Unless you're coming from a place that (after hearing Lendringser's descriptions) I'd call "boiling hot" during summer. ;)

[Art Eatman]

Arrgghhh! Hey, in Terlingua, water freezes at 60F!. But, it never gets much above 115, in summertime.

:D, Art

[T.Stahl]

Fourty-six Celsius!?! :eek:

[Mute]

Will a .223 stop a Grizzly?

Let me quote the movie Blade:

"Some motherf*(#$ always trying to ice skate uphill."

[H&Hhunter]

I've posted this on the firing line (I believe) in the past.
I have personally witnessed a .300 win mag 180 gr nosler fail on a head shot to a brown bear.

I'll save all of the gory details but here is the meat of the incident. The bear was shot head on at 30 yards in the tip of the nose.

You see gentelmen when bears are A. Charging or B. Just doing the I'm a cautious bear thing they tend to hold their noses up making the brain only accesable through the point of the nose. They generally do not hold their heads down.
Because of this and the geometry of a bear head (flat on top for the most part) a frontal brain shot is very difficult on a bear as the skull is held perpendicular to the ground making penetration darn near immpossible from the front with anything but the deepest penetrating heavy bullet. Now if the head is at any kind of angle it makes the brain more accesable however the bullet still has to make it through the xigomatic(SP?) process or cheek bones which are massive on a big bear.

In any case at the shot the bear rolled over onto his haunches sat up and chuffed out a huge ball of bloody snot and was gone into the brush all in a matter of 2 seconds or less. (Wounded bears seldom charge at the shot the trouble is usually encountered either following up on a bear in the thick stuff or surprising one in the thick stuff.)

About 5 days later another buddy of mine shot this bear killing it with a .375H&H using a 285gr grandslam through the shoulders at just over 100 yards. A one shot kill by the way. Though he did give it some insurance afterwards.

The reason we know it was the same bear was from the massive wound out the bridge of his nose about 3 inches from the entry. The 180 gr nosler launched at 3000Fps had hit the bear in the nose and instead of traveling straight to the brain encountered the massive bone structure of the nose/skull and was deflected out the top of the nose.

Heck a mere 17 inches more penetration and it would have done some good. On the other hand seldom will a good bullet out of a .375 or .416 or even a .338 not get full penetration on a bruin even after hitting bone.

So here's the gig yes it is techinacally possible to kill a bear with a .223. Not really all that difficult in fact on a relaxed side possing bear just pop him in the ear with a solid and that's it. To STOP a charging bruin with a frontal head shot with a .223 would be darn near immposible. You couldn't turn him with a body shot like you could with an adequate caliber and your chances of.................................................................
........................................!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
A. getting a bullet in the right place.

B. having that 55gr splinter get through nearly 20 inches of sinus bone and tissue to even touch the brain.

C. Even being able to get a shot off in the first place in any kind of cover are about 1 in a million. But like they said in dumb and dumber "so I guess there is a chance!"

As far as using buckshot Blain I think we've already discussed that one. Dude go get yourself some slugs for that scatter gun and quite trying to make little lead balls into lazer beams. They just ain't going to do it;)

[Blain]

Do you think if that bullet was fmj or AP that it would have penetrated more into the bear instead of the 180 gran softpoint? Since softpoint don't penetrate as well, wouldn't a fmj be better for head shots?

boing......No way are those bears in the pics lifesize! If the man in the pics is 6' tall, that would make the bears 12'+ each!!!!!

[Art Eatman]

Blain, on anything but a surface which is nearly perpendicular to the path of a bullet, an AP is more likely to deflect than a soft point. That soft point for some reason allows an initial "dig-in".

Once entry is accomplished, of course, the AP will penetrate more deeply because of shape retention.

Art

[hanko]

2 things...

One, do NOT use an AR...front sight issues (very old gun/bear joke).

Two, can we go to the "Can I shoot my Glock underwater??" thread?? I just can't bear much more of this.:rolleyes:

-hanko

[Nightcrawler]

ATTACK of the THREAD THAT WOULDN'T DIE! LOL

Lots of interesting info here, though. I'm always amused at how some AR-15 fans (not referring to anyone here specifically) want their rifles to be the one super magic true sword; long ranged and powerful as a .308, lighter, higher capacity, easier to shoot, better penetrating, yet penetrating less than hollow point pistol rounds, and now it's a bear-stomper too! Yeesh.

A man's got to know his limitations, guys. .223 + Bear in most cases is going to result in a mauled shooter with an AR-15 wrapped around his neck. YES, it's possible, but when you're dealing with something than can easily kill you, it's best not to take those kind of chances.

[Sir Galahad]

Nightcrawler, LOL! I wonder tha myself. How is it that a bullet that will not overpenetrate through drywall suddenly becomes a grizzly stopper? You know, here we are in America. Even in the most gun unfriendly states, there are perfectly good Marlin .45/70s that cost a fraction of what an AR costs. Hmmmm...and you can get a Marlin Guide Gun in Cali. But not an AR. Maybe that's why they have a bear on the flag--bada-bump-bing! I just flew in from Arizona and boy are my arms tired! But why would anyone of sane mind even try to shoot a grizzly with a .223 if they could have had a tunnelbore for pete's sake?! Me, I'd be all about .45/70 and Buffalo Bore ammo. And a .454 Casull handgun with Buffalo Bore ammo.

[Zorro]

Big Bears equal Rhinos and Water Buffalos in the DANGEROUS/HARD TO KILL equation.

Hardest hitting gun you can get is the medicine.

.375 H&H is OK, .458 Winchester is better, .416 Rigby is better yet!

20MM Canon? .....Well if you can get one.......
:D

[Nightcrawler]

Sir Galahad, I'm working on the specs for a drywall/sheetrock/plywood armor vest, to protect against AR-15 and similar carbines with their ammo that apparently fragments with such reliability that people feel comfortable using it for home defense in thin-walled apartments.

Now, imagine a GRIZZLY with a sheetrock armor vest! YIKES! :eek:

[Art Eatman]

Lookin' at all this ya-yahing around about .223 and Ol' Griz, it seems to me that the more practical question is whether a semi-auto .223 will kill a grizzly before that grizzly can kill you.

I'd say your odds are between Slim and None, and Slim left town. Using a pipsqueak cartridge against heavy-boned, dangerous game is somewhere in the realm of "dumber'n'dirt". It can all too easily be a one-time event.

Now, somebody could stand off at a distance and salivate the bruin and then run away and survive and there'd be a dead grizzly. I really hope that's not anybody's idea of reality.

Art

[Cosmoline]

"Yes, but the Earth wasn't trying to bite the head off the galaxy the meteor hailed from, too"

LMAO:D

[Cosmoline]

There are two different kinds of bears in the woods. The first kind is the one that's eating at your bait stand and presenting its broadside to you. THIS KIND of bear can be killed with an arrow. A .223 might not be ideal, but it would work. It has only a few inches to penetrate to get to the heart/lung area.

The second kind of bear is the one that's charging you. THIS KIND of bear is facing you with an amazing array of lethal weapons, and in order to kill it you'll need to either hit the brain (not easy at all) or cut through several FEET of bone, muscle, skin, fat, etc. to get to the same heart/lung area. This kind of bear is also wired on more juice than your average PCP addict, and can keep going even with big holes in its heart. It seems to me that a .223 would not be too good a medicine against bear #2.

[scotjute]

that a .223 would not be too good a medicine against bear # 2

But if you do try it, be sure to have a friend catching it on video from a distance...so we can settle this! :)

[H&Hhunter]

I guess this post has broken down into the old,, Theroretically possible realm vs Common sense.

Oh and to finsih my story!!

(the first one)

Bubba survived! He was helicoptered to Anchorage anbd upon recovery he imediatly replaced his .223win double rifle with a suitable Double in .223wssm!!!!

Now we can start the velocity over bullet diameter and weight post...:D

I feel sorry for all of these bears out here with .22 caliber flesh wounds and buck shot under the skin.;)

[Sir Galahad]

Nightcrawler, LOL! That vest sounds like a winner! Paint it black and stencil the word "tactical" on it and you can charge an extra $100 for it. How about taking it to the next level? How about wattle-and-daub APCs?

[Blain]

and buck shot under the skin. :uhoh:



:neener:

[Combat-wombat]

If you have $8000, you should really get this. (http://www.barrettrifles.com/rifles_82A1.html)

[Mark]

I'm with Nightcrawler, this was an interesting thread but it needs to die. (which is what will happen to the person using .223 on a real bear).

[Louie]

I have hunted bear over my 18 years as a hunter and also own a
couple of 5.56 rifles.

Special 5.56 ammo aimed and unloading all 30 rds maybe if the Bear was not hyped up and on a charge.

I was hunting in PA some years back and rolled upon a Big Black Bear which is no way near the size of a Grizzly Bear.

I put 5 shots in it on the run towards me with my Model 90 Winchester 7.62x54 (308)
And Thank God I Dropped It before it dropped me.
I dam near had a heart attack myself......:D

So the answer is NO........ DON`T TRY IT

[adamsbomb]

Here ya go, not sure of the caliber that brought this monster down. Clipping says full "magazine" of magnum, since the guy is a ranger I assume 357 mag, despite the term magazine. Last rounds to the face. 12'6 at the shoulder, 1600 pounds.:what:

[adamsbomb]

try this one, full size bear. There is one more picture, not sure if it is okay to post here: Shows one of the victims of this bear, naked,missing one leg and the other leg with bare bone and a calve attached, the victim is naked which is why I am not sure it is appropriate.

[Louie]

Holy :cuss: :cuss:

Now if this was the bear coming after me that day
I WOULD HAVE HAD A HEART ATTACK:D :D :D
WOW

[adamsbomb]

Ya think, lol

[Nightcrawler]

I remember those pictures. No, it wasn't .357 Magnum. It was 7mm Rem Mag from a Browning BAR Mk. II. Big mamma jamma took a full magazine before it dropped. Of course, that's only like three rounds on the BAR 7mm, which is why I like 10 round mags in big mean rifles.

[treeprof]

Those pics are of the "Hitchenbrook Bear", and most of the info floating around abt it is pure internet myth. There's an article in the latest issue of Big Game Adventures abt it written by one of the guys on the hunt,. It was shot w/a .338 WM, was not charging, and is not going to even be in the top 100 in the record book, IIRC. It was debunked on one of the hunting BBs abt a year ago.

[adamsbomb]

Here is the story I got with the pics, nothin major,

This bear was killed in Canada by the Ranger pictured. The bear stood
>12ft.6inches at the shoulder and weighed in at over 1600 lbs, it had
>killed several campers and one is pictured. The ranger emptied the
>full magazine of a magnum into it, the last being into the face before
>it dropped just short of the ranger.

AS an aside here is the extra picture, it may be offensive to some so be warned,

[Curare]

Someone mentioned a .223 going through 1" steel. The steel must have been extremely soft AND the round was AP.

Personally, I have left some serious craters in 3/8" steel with .223 ball with non deflected shots from a 20" barrel. Out of 20 shots, 2 rouns made it through--likely by the aggregate effect of multiple hits. This was standard steel you would buy for welding something together on a farm implement.

.303 would sail cleanly through with a "cherrio, chap" on its way down range. Devastating power.

9mm would polish the surface!

The impervious 3/8" steel targets someone referred to must be hardened.

[treeprof]

The bear was big, but not that big. Here's but one of many debunking stories:

http://www.alaska.com/akcom/western/activity/story/1838247p-2120744c.html

and another:

http://www.adn.com/epicks/story/3078344p-3101204c.html

[Chairman Meow]

Charge the bear. Just turn at him, look hungry, and start running and making a lot of strange guttural noises. Try to run through a nearby tree if possible. Your .223 can be used to pole vault over small obstacles or streams if needed. This will confuse and anger the bear, causing him to increase his charging velocity. When the bear gets right up close and your death seems imminent, try to get right in front of a large tree and then drop and roll out of the way as he is about to slam you. If If you are lucky, the bear will knock himself out on the tree, allowing you to shoot him in the ear with your .223. Smear some of the blood on your face, a little dripping from your mouth, and carve some bear-claw-looking wounds on your face, arms, and chest. Whittle a pointy sharp stick and bloody it up real nice like. Take pictures.

[Sir Galahad]

Now, who saw that last picture and still thinks a .223 is adequate for bears? Yeah, .45/70 doesn't seem like much of an overreaction now, does it?

[gunsmith]

YOU SHOOT the guy next to you in the foot
for bait while you run like hell:evil:

[Louie]

Well ,
I am glad the last picture was posted with a warning..:D

The first thing my girlfriend seen was the missing flesh off the leg then she seen the other leg ....:D

Then wanted to know why the bear did`nt
eat the HOTDOG:D

Oh my GOD to funny.....:neener:

[Keith]

Three Points:

1. Grizzlies and black bears attack about an equal number of people per year. Blacks outnumber grizzlies by several hundred to one ; do the math - grizzlies are far more dangerous.

2. Grizzly attacks are NOT fictional or rare, in some places. In one year (98/99) there were ten attacks within a fifty mile radius of my house in Kodiak. The bears won 4, humans won six. 1 death, three people badly injured. Around the state of Alaska, we get several maulings in the spring and then again in late fall, every year. When the pickings are slim, bears get an attitude.

3. A whole lot of big bears have been killed with thutty-thutties and .223's, etc. Doesn't mean a thing - shooting an unaware animal through the ribs at 100 yards and waiting for him to bleed out is a whole different thing than stopping an adrenalized bear charging you at 35 mph from ten yards away.

I'd still rather have a .223 than any handgun. Shoot for the head.

If you don't live in coastal Alaska or a few places in the northern rockies, I wouldn't worry much about bears - you're much more likely to have trouble with two-legged critters.

[12.7x99mm]

The other day I shot a clean hole through an inch of plate steel at 25 yards with .223.

Interesting do you have a photo you can post.


3000 series stainless steel, 3/4" thick
223 Remington at 100m, 62gr FMJBTSC (handload, 22.5gr AA2200):

http://www.aoe.vt.edu/~jchock/223ap_halfmild.jpg

[Keith]

A couple of very recent stories in suburban Anchorage.

http://adn.com/front/story/3161849p-3186286c.html
Woman out for a morning run surprised by a charging grizzly
Driver honking horn scares bear away at last minute


By NICOLE TSONG and DOUG O'HARRA
Anchorage Daily News

(Published: May 22, 2003)

Karen Kirk points out where she first saw a grizzly bear coming toward her Wednesday morning while she was out jogging. (Photo by Bob Hallinen / Anchorage Daily News)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Click on photo to enlarge
Karen Kirk's first thought when she saw a grizzly barreling toward her on two-lane Eagle River Road on Wednesday was, "Surely that's not a bear charging me."

But there it was, a bear running full-tilt at her at Mile 6.6, just a few miles from Wal-Mart.

Kirk, 37, was focusing on her daily run, up a steep hill Wednesday morning around 9:45, zoning out to the kickboxing music rushing through her headphones, when she heard a swishing noise behind her.

She glanced back and doesn't like to think about what might have happened if she hadn't. Because behind her, a bear with marbled light-brown fur was running "like a bat out of hell" down a wooded embankment on the opposite side of the highway and heading right for her.

Kirk said that her mind went blank and that the only thought that popped in her head was she needed to get something between her and the bear. She stepped over a guard rail and ran behind some trees too slim to climb, hoping the bear would run past.

She didn't know what to do, and the trees didn't offer much protection.

The bear was small, but roly-poly, and she initially thought it was running away from something.

"It wasn't until the last moment that I realized I was his final destination," she said.

It stopped right in front of her patch of trees and put its paw on the guard rail five feet away. Just as it was about to clamber over and as Kirk was wondering what it would feel like to get "popped," she heard someone honking madly on the road. A truck roared around the bend, its driver beeping his horn and revving the engine to frighten the grizzly. The noise worked, scaring the bear back into the woods.

"Talk about serendipity," she said.

She doesn't know the truck driver's name, but he gave her a ride home.

Rick Sinnott, the Anchorage area biologist for the state Department of Fish and Game, said it was very possible the bear was going to attack. A brown bear had been reported by other residents in that area at about 9 a.m. and again at about 11 a.m.

Sinnott figures it might be a young brown bear searching for a quick meal of moose.

"Both times it sounds like the cow and calves were in the road," Sinnott said. "And the bear came out into the road after them. ... It certainly wasn't shy."

He visited the area later on Wednesday and didn't find any sign of a fresh kill. He planned to monitor the bear reports. "But it sounds like it was doing a normal bear thing," he said.

If the bear returns and turns out to be a youngster chasing moose and bothering people, Sinnott said he might try to dart it and move it to a remote area. If it's an older bear that has become too bold around people, the biologist said he'd be more likely to kill it.

Black and brown bears have been roaming Anchorage woods and foothills over the past few weeks, with state biologists receiving between five and 10 calls per day, Sinnott said. On Tuesday, a family picking mushrooms near Chugiak was alarmed when a black bear seemed to follow the kids, he said.

Cranky moose that just gave birth also pose a threat to people who come too close. A cow with two new calves kicked a woman cyclist and broke her wrist last week in Hillside Park.

With lots of "large, dangerous animals" pursuing their own agendas, people ought to be careful, Sinnott said. "Actually the moose are more dangerous right now than the bears are."

Sinnott said Kirk's experience suggests a couple of lessons. Her instinct was to climb a tree, but he recommends standing your ground and make sure the bear knows you're a human. He also warned people away from jogging along salmon streams during spawning or in dense forest.

"This time of year, there are a lot of bears kind of running though the woods looking for small things that are running, hoping to snag a moose calf."

Still, Kirk was probably running in one of the best locations in Eagle River -- along a well-traveled road, Sinnott said.

Kirk said it never occurred to her that a bear would charge her there. Later Wednesday she walked near the area where the bear descended and cast one wary glance that direction. With rush hour traffic roaring by and two people accompanying her, she said she felt safe again.

But as the mother of two young boys, she's concerned about the children who live in the area that the bear might pursue.

She's a little intimidated at the thought of running outside this week. But maybe in a few days.

"Now that we're out here, I'm like, 'I could run this again,' " she said. "But that might not be wise."

http://www.adn.com/front/story/3218420p-3244019c.html

McHugh Creek hiker tells of being stalked by 3 bears
ENCOUNTER: Jim Leslie says behavior of sow and cubs was out of character.


By CRAIG MEDRED
Anchorage Daily News

(Published: June 1, 2003)
McHUGH CREEK -- About a mile north of here, still within scent of families barbecuing at one of the most popular highway waysides in Alaska, Jim Leslie believes he had a near-death encounter with three bears.

"I've never been so scared in my life," he said.

Though the three black bears never got closer to Leslie than about 100 feet, he said their behavior gave him the clear impression he was being stalked. Black bears have been known to do that, though those have almost always been lone bears.

What troubled Leslie about these bears was that they didn't do what bears are supposed to do when they encounter people: flee in fear.

Leslie, who works at Providence Heart Center in Anchorage, had known every other bear he'd met in his years in Alaska to do exactly that.

"I've run across bears before," Leslie said, "although usually it's just one bear.

"These were not scared of me one bit. I thought I was going to be dinner."

What the bears had in mind will never be known. They could, experts say, simply have been curious, confused, maybe even preoccupied. Distance runner Pam Richter, who has met what may be the same group of bears on the Turnagain Arm Trail, said that's how they appeared to her.

The first time, she said, the cubs were playing on the trail, and "Mom was down below. She was totally unconcerned.''

The second time, about two weeks ago, all three bears were on the trail. They weren't aggressive, Richter said, but neither were they fearful.

"We stood up big and tall and put our arms up,'' she said, "and she just kept sauntering toward us eating grass. I didn't feel threatened at all, but she certainly wasn't threatened by people at all.''

Richter and her companions scampered off the trail and detoured around the bears. A number of runners who met the bears during a footrace on the trail last week did the same.

Chugach State Park superintendent Jerry Lewanski, who lives in a home above Turnagain Arm Trail, thinks these might be the same three bears he has shooed out of his yard several times. The bears are somewhat habituated to humans, he said, but appear to pose no threat.

But one never knows.

Bears, even black bears, are powerful wild animals. Leslie believes the biggest of these might have been 250 pounds, about the weight of a head-smashing NFL linebacker.

People with considerable experience around black bears tend to view the animals as nonthreatening. Those with less experience tend to be more nervous. Park officials say that's understandable.

Go a few miles east of where Leslie met the three black bears, and you're at the site of one of the deadliest and best-known bear attacks in state history.

In May 1995, nationally recognized senior runner Marcie Trent, 77; her locally well-known marathoning son Larry Waldron, 45; and Trent's grandson Art Abel, then 14, were jogging and hiking up the McHugh Creek Trail toward McHugh Lake when they stumbled into a brown bear on a moose kill.

The bear attacked. Trent and Waldron were killed. Abel survived by climbing a tree.

The Alaska Department of Fish and Game later launched a hunt for the bear but found no sign of it.

Chugach State Park closed the McHugh Creek Trail for several weeks after the attack, but eventually fears began to subside and the trail was reopened. Over time, use returned to normal, but the history of what happened along the trail has long made hikers in the area edgy.

Edgy would be a good description for Leslie, who outlined his first meeting with the three bears this way:

"When bear number one came into sight, 150 feet away, I thought I was in trouble. When number two and number three came into view, I knew I was a dead man. Even with six well-placed shots -- if I was lucky enough to have the time to get all six off -- I knew I was in way over my head."

What Leslie did not know was that in the history of black bear and human contact, there has been only one documented case of a black bear sow with cubs killing anyone. In fact, that East Coast bear was the only black bear sow with cubs ever to touch a human in the wild.

Dozens of other sows have bluff charged, stomped the ground, clicked their teeth and generally made a fuss but not touched a human. Leslie, who has had some experience with bears, said he might have felt more comfortable if this sow had acted more in character by doing those sorts of things.

The out-of-character behavior by all three bears bothered him.

"The bears made no sounds and kept slowly closing the distance without taking their eyes off me,'' he said. " I knew I was a dead man at that point."

So he called the Anchorage Police Department.

"I had my cell phone and APD on 911 in my left hand and my .44 Magnum in my right hand, and I felt it was going to end badly unless a miracle happened. I don't know why I called it in, to be lucky enough to have help arrive in time, or to have someone know my body would be somewhere on the trail for recovery.''

Police dispatchers, Leslie added, seemed more than a little confused by his report that he was in trouble with a bear a mile north of the McHugh Creek picnic area.

"They kept asking, 'Where are you?' '' he said.

Police Department spokeswoman Anita Shell said the department really has no procedure to deal with calls like this. It is geared to fighting crime in the city.

"I don't know what the officers could have done or would have done,'' she said. "I don't know exactly how they'd deal with it. (State) Fish and Wildlife, actually, would be the ones who would go out there.''

But police did dispatch patrol cars to McHugh Creek, and Leslie said dispatchers told him to keep talking to them.

"Hold on a minute," Leslie told them at one point. "I'm going to fire a warning shot.''

The first warning shot sent one bear scurrying several feet up a tree, Leslie said, but the others appeared unfazed. They just kept watching him.

"There were not scared of me one bit,'' he said. "I had the wind at my back. I was making all kinds of noise. They knew it was me. I thought I was going to be dinner.''

The bear that had gone up the tree climbed down. Then all three started advancing on Leslie again.

"They didn't make a sound,'' he said. "They just started walking right at me. There was no huffing, no snapping of jaws, no bluff charges. They just kept walking at me, and I kept slowly backing down the trail.''

When the bears got inside of 100 feet, Leslie fired another warning shot with his handgun.

This time, he said, one bear jumped off the side of the trail, and a few moments later the others seemed to take that as their sign to leave.

Within seconds, they disappeared into the forest.

"I got a miracle,'' he said. "I have no explanation why it ended with all alive and unhurt. I just know I am the luckiest man alive, a man who was given a second chance."

Fish and Game area wildlife biologist Rick Sinnott knows that there is never any predictability in bear encounters but thinks this might be a bit of an overstatement on Leslie's part. He notes the number of Alaskans who have closer encounters with black bears and never know it.

Once the leaves sprout on trees and bushes, he said, it is not unusual to get within 100 feet of a bear and never see it.

Sinnott said he's spent time within 90 to 120 feet of radio-collared bears he couldn't spot, even though a beeping radio transponder told him where to look.

The reality, according to wildlife experts, is that almost everyone who has spent a summer hiking in Alaska has had a close encounter with a bear.

The only question is whether people know it or not, because the bears usually don't make themselves visible except in parts of June and July, when black bears are mating.

"People start seeing herds of bears then,'' Sinnott said.

Leslie thinks he already has.

He thanks God that he survived.

[444]

There is steel, and then there is steel.
I have a target I made from a piece of steel taken from the leading edge of a road grader. It has taken thousands of bullets inculding, 8mm Mauser, .30-06, .444 Marlin, and .223. It has taken at least a thousand rounds of .223 easily. I have managed to dimple it. One pretty decent dimple was a .444 Marlin with a 300 grain bullet at just shy of 2200 fps at about 25 yards. I did manage to put quite a few dimples on it with a Galil in .223 using mil surp ammo at 50 yards. I emtied a 30 round mag on full auto from the bipod. The worst dimple on the plate is maybe 1/8" deep. The plate is about an inch thick. The only value of talking about penetration of steel would be when the exact steel alloy is known.

The thought that a .223 would stop a charging grizzly is only slightly more ridiculous than the fact that this thread has gone on for six pages.