[Sindawe]

Bill would bar doctors from asking about guns

By JANETTE RODRIGUES, The Virginian-Pilot
February 23, 2006

CHESAPEAKE - A pediatrician who asks a child's parent about firearms in their home could lose his or her license or be disciplined under legislation being considered by a Senate committee today.

The bill would prohibit health care professionals from asking a patient about gun possession, ownership or storage unless the patient is being treated for an injury related to guns or asks for safety counseling about them.


Sponsored by Del. Ward Armstrong, D-Martinsville, the bill sailed through the House by a vote of 88 to 11 last week. A message seeking comment was left for the delegate; he did not return the call.

The legislation is opposed by The Virginia Chapter of the American Academy of Pediatrics because it blocks a common practice by medical professionals to inquire about gun ownership and safety when they go over a safety checklist with parents during a child's regular checkups from birth to puberty.

"We saw the bill but presumed no one in their right mind would put it through," said Dr. Leslie Ellwood, chapter president. "We thought it was such an unusual bill that anyone with common sense wouldn't pass it."

The national group is closely watching the bill now.

Some local medical professionals are incensed by the bill and the rapid way it is moving through the General Assembly.

The bill also is opposed by several medical groups, including The Medic al Society of Virginia and nurse associations.

The National Rifle Association supports the bill because it will protect gun owners "from intrusive, unnecessary questions from medical professionals," according to the NRA Institute for Legislative Action Web site.

"We don't have an opinion or issue an opinion on guns," Ellwood said. "We don't say it is a bad thing to have around children. Our plan is always to find out how the guns are managed in the household so they are safe."

The national pediatric group puts out a guide on safety counseling for pediatricians under its injury prevention program.

The state-endorsed guidelines are used by not just doctors and nurses but by others whose jobs involve children.

Medical professionals are encouraged to use the routine safety survey to counsel parents about everything from car safety seats and child-proofing a house and backyard pool to bicycle helmets and fire safety once the child reaches the appropriate age.

Pediatricians use the checklist to curtail preventable injuries, such as poisoning by household cleaning products, not to be intrusive, say Virginia physicians.

"The bill hits at the heart and core of prevention and protecting our children," said Dr. Nancy Welch, Chesapeake Health Department director. "I am just amazed that it has gone this far and seems to be flying under the radar."

A board-certified pediatrician, Welch e-mailed three committee members from the South Hampton Roads delegation after being notified about the Senate committee meeting today.

Sen. Harry Blevins, R-Chesapeake, has a policy of giving each bill a fair hearing before commenting on it, said his legislative assistant, Karen Papasodora-Cochrane.

Sen. Frederick Quayle, R-Chesapeake could not be reached for comment.

Sen. L. Louise Lucas, D-Portsmouth, said she thinks it's a bad bill.

"I don't know how it even got out of the House because a person who is practicing the healing arts, if they really have a child's safety in mind, would ask that question and others," she said.

If parents think the question is intrusive, Lucas said they can always tell the health care provider: "It's none of your business."

Source: http://home.hamptonroads.com/stories/story.cfm?story=100053&ran=103354&tref=poThe site also has a poll, so far its showing a slim majority of repsonders in favor of barring pediatricians from asking about guns.

[Derek Zeanah]

My wife's a pediatrician. She brings up guns all the time. Gun safety is a big deal in her office.

Of course, she's been shooting since she was 3, we live in a part of the country where "ghetto moms" listen to country music and carry John Deere purses, and she's actually talking about safety.

[PotatoJudge]

I'm sure the NRA is qualified to determine what is an "unnecessary" and "intrusive" question when it comes to medical matters. Hope they change their position (maybe, say, because a bunch of THR members e-mail them) on this soon so that people will take them more seriously when it matters.

[Zundfolge]

I don't think we need a law to restrict a doctor's 1st amendment rights just so I don't have to be bothered by their questions about how I choose to exercise my 2nd amendment rights.

If a doctor asked me the stupid AMA questions about guns that would mark the last time I would see that doctor (because if he buys into the BS anti-science of the AMA's anti gun stance then how do I trust him to make decisions about my health based on science).

But I don't need the government coming in and telling him what he can and can't ask.

[Thefabulousfink]

I have no problem with pediatricians asking about guns as long as it is from a legitimate gun-safety standpoint. If the doctor is asking if the guns are properly stored, that is fine. It is part of a pediatrician's job to inform parents of potential hazards to their baby, and lets face it a loaded gun can be a hazard to a baby. I know that just about eveyone on this forum would never leave guns in places where a baby could get at them, but there might be some new parents out there that this migh not occur to (you don't need a license to have babys:mad: ).

However, if the doctor is asking out of some anti-gun agenda then it is none of their business and other than telling him/her that all my guns are stored safely, I would not discuss the matter any further.

Personally I don't see why there is any need for this type of bill, unless the doctor was reporting gun-owning parents to Child Services as having an unsafe household, it is a non-issue.

[ArmedBear]

I wouldn't answer a question from a pediatrician about anything that wasn't health-related, both for personal reasons and for legal reasons. Anything I say can be used against me in a court of law -- a civil court.

And I would have absolutely NO problem with this law.

This is not about pediatricians, it's about insurance companies. Insurance companies can effectively take our rights away just as easily as the government. Pediatricians do not really work for you, because you don't really pay them. Ultimately, people work for those who write the checks.

Ever had to sue your own insurance company to get a settlement that was neither large nor apparently subject to any dispute? I have.

[M.E.Eldridge]

If its a legitimate concern over safety and not just an excuse to spread anti-gun BS, then the docs should be able to discuss the gun-children-safety connection with parents. Reviewing things like safe handling and general gun safety, as well as safe storage or arms and ammo is a good thing for anybody, whether you have kids or not. However, if the docs are spreading their political opinion as scientific medical fact, then they should just shut up. Say that it's their expert opinion that guns are dangerous is like me saying that its my expert opinion that they have ebola.

[duckslayer]

I have a new baby, so I am very familiar with these questions, as I have recently been asked them. Our pediatrician asked if we had guns in the home. I told her yes, and that I was skeptical about the reasoning for the APA to inquire about such things. She didn't try to tell me they were evil, she simply said that it is recommended they have trigger locks and ammunition be stored in a separate place. She then asked if we had dogs, smokers living in the house, chemicals, etc.

It is never a bad time for anyone to talk about and reinforce gun safety. If the individual pediatrician begins to then counsel you on why you should get rid of your arms, then it might be a good time to tell them why you are going to find another pediatrician, but they don't necessarily want to rid you of your guns just because they tell you it isn't a good idea to leave them laying around so your kids can play with them.

If pediatricians told you it was unhealthy to smoke around your child, would you consider that a violation of your rights and go find another doctor?

[antsi]

I'm sure the NRA is qualified to determine what is an "unnecessary" and "intrusive" question when it comes to medical matters.

Just like physicians are most professionally qualified on matters relating to firearms policy, gun control laws, and safe gun handling?

[ArmedBear]

Just like physicians are most professionally qualified on matters relating to firearms policy, gun control laws, and safe gun handling?

Many physicians believe that they know everything about everything.

Some are truly wonderful people, though.

Still, I support such a law because of its implications for insurance company discrimination, not because I want to silence pediatricians.

[CubDriver]

I think banning the discussion of it would be overkill. What’s next the bleach manufactures banning doctors asking if your bleach is in reach of a child? I will say that it would be inappropriate for a doctor to tell a patent that they shouldn’t have guns, or that guns are bad, or to ridicule them in any way. But if you are going over a general household safety list, it may be a good idea to ask.

[hso]

Since most people don't have the oportunity to speak with a firearms safety specialist any more than they do with a home safety professional, but parents do have to opportuntiy to speak with their pediatrician, I think it's a good idea for the doc to make the parents aware of the common hazards in the household and the simple controls that the parent can employ. Swimming pools, buckets, household chemicals, stairs, pans on the stove, dogs, cats, electrical cords, space heaters, etc. If that includes firearms, I'm happy to have the doc point out that clever kids can get access to loaded firearms that are not under lock and key regardless of how high you put them or how far back in the closet/drawer they are. If the doc suggests that the firearm shouldn't be in the house then that's outside the scope of providing useful safety advice.

[PotatoJudge]

Sometimes when I type something it comes out looking like I'm being a jerk, wish I could help it- it really isn't my intention. As far as gun safety, policy, and control goes, anyone can be qualified (and I think everyone should be). I also think that too many politicians (people that DO make important decisions on firearms policy and gun control laws) are not qualified to make decisions on gun related matters. Again, didn't mean to come off as beligerent or to propogate the idea that "physicians believe that they know everything about everything," its just how things get from my brain to the keyboard sometimes.

[antsi]

Many physicians believe that they know everything about everything.

Anecdote: Guy I know is a commercial pilot. Pre-911, he had a passenger come barging into the cockpit, telling him he had the flaps set wrong. Pilot says "Go back to your seat, sir. You're not allowed on the flight deck." Passenger replies "It's okay, I'm a physician."

[ArmedBear]

I think banning the discussion of it would be overkill. What’s next the bleach manufactures banning doctors asking if your bleach is in reach of a child? I will say that it would be inappropriate for a doctor to tell a patent that they shouldn’t have guns, or that guns are bad, or to ridicule them in any way. But if you are going over a general household safety list, it may be a good idea to ask.

Have you ever done a formal job interview of someone?

There is a laundry list of questions you're not allowed to ask, in the interest of avoiding unfair discrimination. It may or may not work, but this sort of thing is pretty common when one's rights could be threatened by someone in a position of power, even when that power is purely financial.

[K-Romulus]

We ignored "the question" when we started our infant at the Peds'. It has never come up.

There are all kinds of flyers plastered up around the exam rooms about home safety. Anything firearm related says they should "begone" from the home.

"We don't have an opinion or issue an opinion on guns," Ellwood said. "We don't say it is a bad thing to have around children. Our plan is always to find out how the guns are managed in the household so they are safe."


I take issue with this MD's claim in the article (I live in MD, but it can't be that big a difference among MD cultures). The last flyer I saw, the AAP home safety checklist, explicitly states that all firearms should be removed from the home, but if you "must":rolleyes: keep one in the home, it should be unloaded, locked up, with ammo locked up separately.

NOTHING about swimming pools . . .

[hso]

Pediatricians do not really work for you, because you don't really pay them. Ultimately, people work for those who write the checks.

S'cuse me? I pick the pediatrician, I pay the insurance company, I pay the copay. I treat every physician I select and use as if they are the hired professional working for me to resolve a problem they are. They are no different than engineers or archetects that I hire to do a job.

[Robert Hairless]

We ignored "the question" when we started our infant at the Peds'. It has never come up.

There are all kinds of flyers plastered up around the exam rooms about home safety. Anything firearm related says they should "begone" from the home.



I take issue with this MD's claim in the article (I live in MD, but it can't be that big a difference among MD cultures). The last flyer I saw, the AAP home safety checklist, explicitly states that all firearms should be removed from the home, but if you "must":rolleyes: keep one in the home, it should be unloaded, locked up, with ammo locked up separately.

NOTHING about swimming pools . . .

Are there flyers advising criminals that they should not harm children?

What the A.M.A. needs to consider is distributing stickers that could be pasted at the entrances of homes with people who follow that advice. Something like "Children present. No firearms allowed or available" could be done most attractively and would protect the kids.

[ArmedBear]

S'cuse me? I pick the pediatrician, I pay the insurance company, I pay the copay. I treat every physician I select and use as if they are the hired professional working for me to resolve a problem they are. They are no different than engineers or archetects that I hire to do a job.

That's why I, too, have a PPO.

Most people don't.

[TonkinTwentyMil]

I sense a ton of well-meaning naivete here about the REAL role of the medical professions in gun control political-activism. To wit:

1. If your physician notes the presence of guns in your home in your medical records, then THAT info is readily available to your medical insurer (and likely your employer). Do you really believe THAT is any of their business -- especially if they have an anti-gun agenda (which, by the way, has become increasingly well documented; see the debate re corporations that ban guns from employees cars in parking lots, etc.).

2. A medical org called Physicians For Social Responsibility has been around for a while now, and its aggressive pursuit of typical left-wing causes -- especially gun control -- is no secret. Does YOUR doctor disclose if he's a member of PSR, or if he's sympathetic to their agenda?

3. While many medical professionals support gun rights and participate in their benefits, it's no secret that a huge chunk of them oppose the 2A. In fact, many elected to leadership in national medical pro orgs got there because of their "activism." Sub-sets like the Amer. Psychiatric Association have long been openly hostile to gun rights and support agendae similar to the ACLU's. Example: my ex-wife's "shrink" was incensed by my gun ownership and active support of self-defense legislation. He actually tried to "turn me in to the police" for my (totally legal) gun ownership AND ideology! I later learned he was far from being alone in his profession.

Legislation like this (Virginia's) cuts this insidious bullspit off at the knees. Without it, the Nanny-State's accolytes may continue their sneaky schemes for undermining our our 2A rights.

Now, if we can only get similar legislation passed that'll restrict TEACHERS from asking similar questions -- while preaching the Brady Bunch mantra...

[ArmedBear]

Tonkin's absolutely right.

Now has anyone thought about the fact that this does not in any way infringe on the doctor's right to free expression?

The doctor is free to inform a parent about firearms safety in every way he/she wants to.

The doctor would not be free to ASK about gun ownership. The doctor doesn't ASK about the use of power tools, either. Informing people might be a doctor's job; compiling non-medical information about them is NOT a doctor's job, at least in a free country.

[silliman89]

I don't see any connection between explaining the importance of safe firearm storage when there are children in the house, and asking if you have firearms. It's not as if you can't explain about safety without asking first. It's actually quicker and easier to tell new parents to "lock up your guns now so the kids don't find them", than it is to ask about guns and wait for an answer.

It seems to me that the AMA is just meddling by instructing pediatricians to ask first. Safety good. Meddling bad.

[ArmedBear]

BTW it is appropriate to inform people about firearms safety even if they don't have guns in their home at the moment. Accidents could happen at the house of a friend or relative before a hunting trip, for example. Gun safety is something everyone needs to know about.

There is no legitimate reason to ASK someone about what they have in their homes.

[silliman89]

TonkinTwentyMil -- # 20
I sense a ton of well-meaning naivete here about the REAL role of the medical professions in gun control political-activism. ...

+1 to everything Tonkin said above.

[k_dawg]

If one has the "right to privacy" to have an abortion ---

--- one has the "right to privacy" when it comes to guns.

[migoi]

does all this one better. Everytime you purchase a handgun and once a year when you renew your long gun permit you fill out a form giving the police department the name, address, and phone number of your physician. In the two weeks between the time you put in the paperwork and when you pick up the permit to go get your firearm they contact your doctor and ask him/her if they know of any reason you shouldn't be allowed to own a firearm (even if you already have 30 in your safe at home).

A local police records check and a state mental health agency check are also done. Currently if you are denied the permit you will be told the source of the denial so you can straighten in out if it is an error. There is a bill before the current legislature which would make is so the person denied the permit would not be told the source of the denial. The Hawaii Rifle Association is attempting to get this killed in committee.

Luckily for me my physician wear combat boots (my spouse is retired military and we receive our medical care through Tripler Army Medical Center). So far never any problems.

migoi

[Zundfolge]

migoi, what if you don't have a physician?

[ArmedBear]

Now, Hawaii is an interesting place.

Among surfers like me, it's known for good waves, sharp coral, and dangerous people -- and some really nice people, too.

Interracial violence, family loyalties bordering on Hatfield/McCoy stuff, savage thuggery, drug abuse and the underworld that goes with it, are all part and parcel of the Hawaii that exists behind the facade of the tourist industry.

Don't get me wrong, it's beautiful, too.

But if we want to keep our freedom, it helps not to abuse it too much. That goes for all our freedoms.

I'm vehemently pro-gun but Hawaii is really the kind of place that is ASKING for gun control, sadly. A viable social contract is vital to liberty.

[Kim]

I'm a physician and I can tell you beyond any doubt that the Am. Pediatric Association is anti-gun meaning they are for banning ALL of THEM. They have rewritten their main text books. It has the Kellerman Study. It says all firearms should be banned and if not ALL should be removed from the home. Do NOT BE A FOOL.

[migoi]

have a doctor, that's okay, you just don't fill out the form. However if you have a doctor and lie it's a crime (class c felony, I think, according to the sign at the firearms window).

Unfortunately, ArmedBear, it's that type of attitude (more prevelant on this island than I can stand to think about) that continues to let the powers in charge treat citizens like subjects. Quite frankly...it's a big pile of bunk.

All those classes of folks you named aren't law abiding citizens abusing their rights, they are a bunch of thugs, druggies, and bullies being thugs, druggies, and bullies. Eliminating the suffocating control will not change this nor will it turn law abiding citizens into thugs, druggies, and bullies.

If one reads our news daily, with very few exceptions any story mentioning the illegal use of a firearm will also include the words "convicted felon" in the story when describing the person making illegal use of the firearm.

migoi

[Lone_Gunman]

I am a physican too, and the American Academy of Pediatrics is for sure against private firearms ownership. Don't be fooled, they have a political agenda!

The American Medical Association defined firearms as a public health crisis a few years ago, and there newly elected president wrote a long dissertation on the "crisis" a few years ago. It was an obviously political tirade against private firearms ownership.

I resigned my AMA membership over it, and will simply not be part of a group that pushes that kind of political agenda. The AMA needs to stick to promoting legitimate health care issues.

I wish physicians didnt ask gun related questions. Some physicians are so naive as to believe those questions are legitimate since organized medicine has made this an issue, and don't even realize they have been bamboozled by left wing politics.

Instead of making those questions illegal, I wish patients would just walk out of the office and find a doctor that doesn't ask those questions. Hit the physicians where it counts (in the pocketbook) and they will quit asking this crap!

[Sir Aardvark]

The push about guns by the AMA is not about safety-

it is about politics.

The AMA is anti-gun!

[YK]

Lone Gunman,

+1 here.

Questioning about firearms, from ethical standpoint, is an intrusion, and, from medical standpoint, is an intervention of unproven efficacy, which is a waste of your time and money, antd this makes it unethical all over again.

Tonkin,

If your medical record is used for anything other than medical care, billing, and, in some instances, research, and especially, if your info gets known by the insurer or employer, you can put your doctor/practice into a deep ...., just mention HIPAA violation.

[shooter 7]

I think it's ironic that statistics show the US has more deaths attributed to health care mistakes by drs. & health care providers than "accidental" firearm related deaths. Not everyone has firearms, most have physicians.

[Meplat]

I'm sure the NRA is qualified to determine what is an "unnecessary" and "intrusive" question when it comes to medical matters. Hope they change their position (maybe, say, because a bunch of THR members e-mail them) on this soon so that people will take them more seriously when it matters.

Yeah, right. Us unedumacated idjits with no medical degree can't differentiate between actual useful questions and unnecessary prying.

Had to take my son in to the doc's the other day. Was given paperwork to fill out. Had a section for my (guarantor) information, and my son's (patient) information. Was happily filling in my info (insurance carrier, phone numbers, etc.) when I came to the highly relevant, necessary, and non-intrusive question: RACE.

Even dumb ol' me knows that as far a patients go, there are racially inhereted genetic diseases, but as GUARANTOR?????

Put down "MotoCrosser - Former" and let them scratch their heads over that one.

Nah, I'd never be able to determine an "unnecessary" or "intrusive" question without a medcial degree.

[Meplat]

S'cuse me? I pick the pediatrician, I pay the insurance company, I pay the copay. I treat every physician I select and use as if they are the hired professional working for me to resolve a problem they are. They are no different than engineers or archetects that I hire to do a job.

+1

Do the same thing here, and have caught more than my share of flack for refusing to allow some doctor who I know to be a total wipe out (SOMEONE has to graduate at the bottom of their class) work on me. Last one wanted to perform a surgery on me after I had been brought to that hospital because it was the closest one available. (Non-emergency - I was stable - although no one was certain of that at the time I came through the ER doors). I wasn't completely comfortable with that hospital, and I certainly wasn't comfortable with his talents as a cardiologist, as he had insisted over and over again that I simply MUST be on a medication that my regular cardiologist and I had tried for several months to get me adjusted to. After nine months of dizzy spells, falling out, and vomiting every day, both of us knew it was a no go. This one, though, insisted I simply must take it, and told me that since they had a cardio unit now (new unit-small town hospital with mucho dinero to recover) he couldn't transfer me to my hospital of choice. Told him he could either A: Tranfer me via ambulance, B: Sign me out and let my wife drive me, or C: Watch me walk out AMA. Guess he realized that if I walked out AMA, my insurance wasn't going to pay him a dime, so he decided on B:...wife drove me the fifty minutes to a hospital with a REAL cardiac care unit. Later that afternoon, the nurse on duty told me she couldn't understand HOW I'd gotten them to do the transfer, and I told her that I basically didn't ask. She then proceeded to tell me how she wished more patients from that facility were more insistent, as they handled the cases they screwed up FAR too often. Same thing I'd heard from the nurses in the hospital I made them transfer me from. I listen to the nurses and my own instincts before I decide on who gets to treat me unless it is an emergency situation and I am unable to make that decision.

Like you said, the same way one would hire an architect, an engineer or even a car mechanic.

Oh, BTW...upon reaching the destination of the hospital of my choice, tests revealed that surgery was not necessary, and that a medicational change would correct the problems.

[strambo]

but Hawaii is really the kind of place that is ASKING for gun control, sadly.
Really? Sounds like they have quite a bit of it already and it hasn't helped. No CCW permits and onerous questions, applications registrations. How much of that violence you mentioned even involves guns? Furthermore, how much of the gun violence involves legally bought guns? (the only kind gun control laws effect). And finally, how much violence could be prevented if citizens had more access to firearms and could carry concealed? I know of no state that has had a violent crime increase after passing concealed carry legislation.

I keep waiting for a doctor to ask me about guns so we can discuss the 100,000+ deaths per year due to medical malpractice vs a much lower # for firearms and what I should be most concerned about.:D No luck on getting to have that conversation yet.:evil:

[pete f]

My daughter has had a awful lot of physical issues over the last few years and knows her docs by their first name. Last time she was in, there was a new one we had not met who started down the list of questions, ( my daughter is 17) About the third question was about sex, and it was a question I surely hoped i know the answer to, but there was no way I felt that is should have been asked in front of me. My daughters answer was "I am not married yet!" the new Doc stuttered then asked the Question again and My daughter repeated herself....and the Doc was getting upset. The next question was "Do you have any guns in the house?"....My daughter looked at me and then at the Doc, "of course, How can i hunt without a gun," Doc asked how many, Daughter smiled and said "not enough!" "Do you keep them locked up and unloaded and the ammuntion in a different place?" Daughter giggles, "no, that would be stupid, burglars and rapists never give you time to load up" Doc has no answer,,,,But but but ....Daughter then asks "Can i have another Doc. I want Doctor Tom!" "Why?" asks Doctor Loser. "Because I came in here to find out if my hip is necrotic and you are asking me stupid questions instead. I want to know if I have to have a new hip or is mine going to work." Doctor Loser started to say something about the importance of healthy living and My daughter got up and walked out of the room. She found Doctor Tom's nurse and asked to see him, she said he was busy but would be into see her in a minute. Back in the exam room she turns to Doc Loser and says "I have spent the last 16 months with a hip that may or may not be dying, most of it on crutches, walking hurts, I have had to give up hockey and pheasant hunting, Do you think I could even possibly consider having sex? I am on no contact, no impact orders, Oh yeah, that makes me a prime candidate for premarital sex, and if i was getting some, I sure would tell you all about it in front of my dad. and as far as the gun issue, get real...." I have never been prouder of her. Her Doc walks in and hears the last bit and just says thank you Doc loser I will take Lindsey today. He smiles and rolls his eyes, and says good news, there is bone growth around the graft sight and the socket shows no loss of density, so you get to keep your hip for at least a couple more years. Good news on both fronts

[migoi]

good on your daughter....on several fronts...the hip thing...the don't take crap from the people you hire to perform a service thing...the girl shooter thing.

migoi