Mosin Nagant attack!


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grimjaw
February 23, 2006, 11:49 PM
Got two of the three rifles I ordered from AIM in today. I went on a Mosin Nagant binge: Finn 91/30, Russian M44 & M38 (M38 is delayed). The numbers on the Finn are all mismatched; M44 is a forced match. The Finn's got quite a bit of wear, but the bore looks good. Trigger is the best of any 91/30 I've handled so far, and I'm very hopeful that it passes the safety checks (headspace, etc).

The Finnish versions of this rifle are very interesting to me. One possible scenario for some of these rifles would be:

- Russians build gun, send into combat against Finland.
- Gun is 'dropped once', and then captured by Finland.
- Gun is rebuilt, sent into combat against Russia.

Aimed at both sides by both sides. I've read about guns that were captured by the opposing side and used in combat (PPSh-41 for instance), but were there any that were taken and rebuilt in such large numbers as the 91/30?

Anyway, a few more pictures are here (http://www.grimjaw.net/mig/index.php?currDir=./theboomgoesthere/9130).

jmm

http://www.grimjaw.net/mig/albums/theboomgoesthere/9130/1554.jpg

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Niner
February 24, 2006, 01:04 AM
Good looking Finn 91/30. Looks from the picture that it may have a Finn finger stock. I didn't know AIM was offering these. A really good collectable. I have one like this. What marks do you see on it? Is there a 41 by chance? Do I see a hex receiver as well?

trickyasafox
February 24, 2006, 01:10 AM
dam* nice!

grimjaw
February 24, 2006, 01:30 AM
Niner, where would the '41' be? This one is a hexagonal receiver. I haven't given it the once-over to check for things under the wood, so no telling what I'll find. The bolt is cruddy, but might clean up, but hard to see marks on it at the moment. I was considering trying to find an additional bolt.

jmm

asknight
February 24, 2006, 03:08 AM
Interesting!

My Finn-capture 91/30 has multiple SA capture marks, leading me to wonder if it was captured and recaptured multiple times... or the armorer got antsy with the stamp and hit it more than once the first time.

foghornl
February 24, 2006, 09:13 AM
Hmmm Good looking "shootin' iron" :D

Are those special sling adapters? Or did the Finns always come that way? My M-44 Mosin-Nagant has the 'Dog-Collar-though-the-slots' sling mountings

armoredman
February 24, 2006, 10:33 AM
The Finns had sling hangers on thier own stocks, as they didn't use the Russian ones. Sometimes the recievers they rebuilt had been in the woods for quite a while....
Finns are supposed to be mismatched! Nice rifle, and I'll bet it's shoot the feet off a fly at 100 yards.
What year is the reciever?

AH-1
February 24, 2006, 10:37 AM
don't forget the finn's captured alot of russian 91/30's and did nothing more than stamp SA on it and sent it out to the troops.:)
pete

Niner
February 24, 2006, 10:38 AM
On my Finn 91/30 the 41 is on the receiver ring just behind the rear sight. This, according to what I read, is a capture mark.

grimjaw
February 24, 2006, 11:31 AM
I can't find a '41' mark. The receiver date is 1944. It's got a Tikka stamp on the receiver as well as 'SA'. Good indicators so far that it was rebuilt. There's another mark on the hexagonal part of the receiver that reads 'AZF', and what looks like a '3'.

jmm

Cosmoline
February 24, 2006, 12:47 PM
That's a nice late-war Tikka 91/30. I've seen other examples which use a standard 91/30 stock with hangers stuck through the slots. The Tikka 91/30's are among the most accurate Mosins. They don't have heavy barrels, but they also don't have as thick a stock to deal with. There's a lot of difference between the stamped captured 91/30's and the Tikka 91/30's. Your's has the Tikka "T" and potbelly stock. It's a Finn construction, not just a rebuild. They started making Mosins in the 91/30 pattern as they phased out their M-91's. I think the idea was that they could more easily swap parts with the influx of captured 91/30's than the M-91's or M-39's

I always like the pine tar coloration in the finish on those.

ball3006
February 24, 2006, 01:03 PM
rebuilt by Tikka in '43. It will shoot minute of angle if my old eyes are having a good day........chris3

Niner
February 24, 2006, 09:35 PM
AZF means Austrian War-booty. The part that is marked at least was captured in WWI. It stands for Artillerie Zeugs Fabrik. The 1944 was the rebuild date.

grimjaw
February 24, 2006, 10:30 PM
The part that is marked at least was captured in WWI.

Holy crap! :D

Double fun with this one then. Possibly seen two wars! Much thanks for the info, Niner.

jmm

BusMaster007
February 25, 2006, 12:32 AM
SH-hhhhhh...:uhoh: I have a secret!
I sold both of my Swedes :what: and now have two Mosin-Nagant rifles to play with! :evil:
And, I don't feel stupid or guilty! :neener:

grimjaw
February 25, 2006, 02:56 AM
A few more marks. The underside of the receiver behind the trigger reads '1894' and a 'C' inside a circle. So this was rebuilt from an 1894 receiver? The other marks were all found on the receiver.

jmm

Beetle Bailey
February 25, 2006, 04:35 AM
The underside of the receiver behind the trigger reads '1894' and a 'C' inside a circle.

This means the receiver was made in the Chatellerault Arsenal in France in 1894 for a Russian contract. My VKT M39 is also built on a 1894 Chatellerault receiver. BTW, this means your rifle qualifies as a legal antique. :cool:

Cosmoline
February 25, 2006, 05:16 AM
Russian rifle made by the French for the Czar gets captured by the Austrians and sold to the Finns, where its receiver is used to construct a version of the Soviet 91/30.

Every Mosin has a story to tell!

I remember one posting on the Collector's forum showing a Finn that had gone around the globe, going from a US factory to Russia to Japan and then to Finland.

pkm
February 26, 2006, 01:52 PM
Looking at the picture one can see the nice hue of the birch stock.
Stock seems to be thick finnish birch. Sling mounts in the finnish stocks were made suitable for ski troops since it was and still is only way one can be moving in the "stick hell" four months in a year.

Ash
February 26, 2006, 04:14 PM
I love the Tikka made M91/59. Made by the Russians, captured by the Finns, made into a Finnish 91/30, captured by the Russians, made into a M91/59!

Ash

George S.
February 26, 2006, 05:32 PM
The "Circle C" under the rear of the receiver shows it came from the Chatellerault Arsenal.

You could find lots of help with the markings over on the Russian Mosin-Nagant Pages and their forum http://www.russian-mosin-nagant.com/
(turn up your speakers!!)

Or try these pages:
http://www.russian-mosin-nagant.com/finn_section.htm
http://www.russian-mosin-nagant.com/arsenalmarks.htm

dookiesbud
February 26, 2006, 11:35 PM
I dont know much about the Mosin Nagant rifles but Im interesting on buying one. I want to practice on long range shooting. The ammo is cheap so Im not worried since I dont have enough money to buy Tikka T3. Which of the Mosin's are good to buy? Will I be able to add a scope later?

Fire4Effect
February 27, 2006, 04:52 AM
:eek: Dang that music was loud

George S.
February 27, 2006, 12:50 PM
I dont know much about the Mosin Nagant rifles but Im interesting on buying one. I want to practice on long range shooting. The ammo is cheap so Im not worried since I dont have enough money to buy Tikka T3. Which of the Mosin's are good to buy? Will I be able to add a scope later?


I would go with a 91/30 for long range shooting. The M38 and M44 are carbines and their effective range is shorter compared to the 91/30. All of them are relatively inexpensive to buy with prices anywhere from $70 to $120 depending on condition or collectability.

Accuracy will vary depending on the surplus ammo you use. Milsurp ammo is typically Polish, Albanian, Czech, or even Russian. I have found the 148gr Cezch "Silver tip" to be the most accurate from my 91/30 although the Polish ammo is supposed to be pretty accurate. Wolf has some 7.62x54R that is accurate but pricey. Winchester makes some soft-point ammo for hunting.

Scopes can be attached, but try to use a mount that will not require drilling holes for mounting. Lot of people like to think of these rifles as a part of world history and doing some sort of permanent mod to them ruins the rifle. Just my $.01 (retired, cant afford the entire $.02 :D )

dookiesbud
February 27, 2006, 11:31 PM
thanks George

Cosmoline
February 28, 2006, 12:26 AM
I dont know much about the Mosin Nagant rifles but Im interesting on buying one. I want to practice on long range shooting. The ammo is cheap so Im not worried since I dont have enough money to buy Tikka T3. Which of the Mosin's are good to buy? Will I be able to add a scope later?

How long range? None of the Mosins are really suitable for mounting a high-powered scope. It can be done but you are MUCH Better off getting a Savage with the good trigger. The best shooting Mosins are Finnish, many of which were actually put together by Tikka. Don't even think about hacking one, though.

dookiesbud
March 2, 2006, 12:19 AM
within 100 yards, what type of rifle scope would you all recommend without breaking the bank?

Cosmoline
March 2, 2006, 12:25 AM
None. No scope. Within 150 you absolutely don't need one. Get an M-39 and learn how to use the irons and you'll be good out to 200 or more.

KaceCoyote
March 2, 2006, 12:31 AM
+1 to the above. Dont get too comfy with glass, its a crutch at these ranges.

grimjaw
March 2, 2006, 01:30 AM
Yep, I don't intend to scope any of my milsurps that weren't built for it. I've got a couple of TechSights for my SKS's, but those are non-permanent, non-intrusive, open sight upgrades.

jmm

Carl N. Brown
March 2, 2006, 03:47 PM
I have had a Mosin-Nagant aince about 1991, and I still find it fantastic.
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=36459&stc=1&d=1141328465
This is a Jules Verne/H.G. Wells era design, a 19th century marvel.

grimjaw
May 14, 2006, 07:03 PM
Finally got the 'antique' out to the range today. I was lucky enough yesterday to be allowed to shoot a Russian M/N, so I had an idea of what to expect for recoil.

After 25 rounds, I am in pain. :o

I am not gifted with Russian shoulders and didn't have a recoil pad. Rifle kicks like a mule from a bench. Standing was easier.

I was using Winchester 180gr soft point and Brown Bear 180gr FMJ. POI was at least a foot over POA at 100 yards. I'm going to try different ammunition weight before I consider raising the front post somehow. Windage appears to be good. The top handguard tends to work itself loose of the bands.

It's hard to say what groups will be like, but my guess is it can manage 6" with open sights. I popped the 200 yard gong once while standing and that made me smile.

jmm

DMK
May 14, 2006, 10:41 PM
Try some 147-149 grain ammo like Czech, Hungarian or Polish LPZS silvertip surplus. I believe S&B has some commercial 148gr. also. That should lower your POI a bit and it will be a little easier on the shoulder.

The metal butt plate and the stock design really do punish your shoulder. I picked up a slip on recoil pad from Cabellas and never shoot a Mosin with out it!


That Finn 91/30 is pretty! :)

fastsvt1998
May 31, 2006, 01:08 AM
I am new here and obviously, this is my first post. Excuse me if I am posting in the wrong area. I have a Russian 91/30. Just tried some winchester soft point, czech, and polish surplus. I am having problems with the bolt opening after the cartridge is spent. I mean, you really have to hit it to get it to open, and then sometimes, the next round won't chamber right and the bolt is hard to close. Try the modern Winchester, and Bam, the problem goes away. Anything I should be looking at here?

ArmedBear
May 31, 2006, 01:21 AM
Stuck bolt is common problem. My Mosin Carbine is still in grease. Someone here does know the answer, though; check back!:)

Rifle kicks like a mule from a bench. Standing was easier.


Benchrest shooting is rather uncommon in combat.:p

Everything sucks from the bench. But you gotta sight in and test loads somehow. Otherwise, I can't stand butt-shooting.:)

OCJ
May 31, 2006, 01:46 AM
get yourself a limbsaver slip on recoil pad and you'll be able to shoot all day without a sore shoulder. But then stock up on ammo cause you're gonna be shooting alot more of it.

Carl N. Brown
May 31, 2006, 12:40 PM
fastsvt1998
"I am having problems with the bolt opening after the cartridge is spent. I mean, you really have to hit it to get it to open, and then sometimes, the next round won't chamber right and the bolt is hard to close. Try the modern Winchester, and Bam, the problem goes away. Anything I should be looking at here?"

For what it is worth, at THR > Tools and Technologies > Rifle Country > nagant vs sks vs carcano

If you get the Mosin, be careful on the ammo you get. 7.62 x54R. I got some from SOG. It was the "silver tip steel cased" The ammo would stick in the chamber. You actually had to beat the bolt handle on the bench to get it open. Some of the cases were even splitting. I checked and my rifle was correctly headspaced.

Come to find out from a guy, that some of that ammo was actually de-linked machine gun ammo and are really hot. I got some Wolf and some other newly manufactured brass ammo and it worked great. . . .

fastsvt1998
May 31, 2006, 01:11 PM
Thanks Carl. I appreciate the help to a new guy here in the forum. I will have the head space checked and then see. Come to think of it, I did find some cases that were split and the barrel was getting really hot. It only had the problem once the round was spent. If you just cycled the action and chambered and ejected, no prob. It was only after the "explosion" the problem would occur.

GD
May 31, 2006, 01:20 PM
Clean the chamber really well with a larger brush (I use a Garand brush and sometimes a well worn 20 gauge brush). That has cleared up every sticky bolt mosin I have encountered.
I can shoot the worst recoiling mosin without any pain because I have learned how to hold them. It is really hard to to hold a rifle correctly off the bench. Since I hunt, I avoid using the rifle off the bench. I have learned how to fire when kneeling and sitting to where I can shoot just as well from those positions as off the bench. It is all in bracing the rifle and your arms in a very steady position. I am still working on shooting from a standing position without being unsteady. It simply takes a lot of practice.
If you must shoot off the bench, I would recommend not using heavy ball (yellow tip) and using a towel or recoil pad. If you hunt, shooting off the bench will not help you when you have to shoot that deer without support.

fastsvt1998
May 31, 2006, 04:59 PM
Is there any danger in using a bolt from another Mosin if the cleaning doesnt work? I have another from an M-44 that has never had any chambering problems.

Sewerman
May 31, 2006, 08:45 PM
Ga. arms has silver bear 200 gr. soft point 50 rnds for 14 bucks, it is by far the best ammo for my m-38. It is VERY accurate and a great hunting round as well. I shot a 130 lb. hog with it last fall, from 60-70 yds it hit him like a semi. Practically cleaned him for me.:D

Davo
June 2, 2006, 12:15 AM
Can anyone recommend a good place to purchase a fin? I got my C&R yesterday, and want one bad.

grimjaw
June 2, 2006, 12:28 AM
Davo, I think AIM Surplus has some left. You might also try Classic Arms. The one I have (pictured in this thread) came from AIM.

jmm

Kymasabe
June 2, 2006, 12:36 AM
If you're thinking of buying a Mosin, I'd suggest staying away from WW2 years unless the gun has been re-arsenaled. My M38 is rough and sloppy in comparison to my Polish M44. The difference in maching on the two bolts is dramatic. The Russian bolts looks like it was carved with an axe, the Polish bolt is polished and shiny....and works so smoooooth.

fastsvt1998
June 3, 2006, 02:37 PM
Well, after narrowing it down, it seems the problem is with the lacquer coated case czech ammo. Shot about 100 rounds of polish copper case, and some olympic brass case and no problems. Another guy at the range yesterday had a Mossin and I let him try the czech ammo. Same thing. His bolt jammed and was hard to open. I think the rounds are too hot or the lacquer on the case is a problem. Anyway, problem solved.

Davo
June 3, 2006, 03:26 PM
Yeah Ive had a similar problem with the czeck silvertips. I find it odd that they are so sticky, as I understand it this is the intended load for the SVD we are facing throughout the world. Ive cleaned up my m91/30's chamber, and it helped. Im thinking of polishing the heck out of its chamber with flitz, to aid in making it quicker shooting. I do not like having to wrestle my rifle to manipulate the bolt.

grimjaw
June 30, 2006, 01:40 AM
Here's the rest of the lineup, minus the M44 (stock has a nasty crack in it).

http://www.grimjaw.net/mig/albums/theboomgoesthere/1821.jpg

From left:

- 1943 M38 Izzy, M44 stock
- 1939 M91/30 Izzy, with a Soviet splice (hard to see though)
- 1932 M91/30 Tula
- 1929 Tula updated Dragoon
- 1894 Chatellerault receiver, Austrian capture marks, 1944 Finn stock and barrel
- Not pictured, 1944 M44 Izzy

Most if not all of them have been rearsenaled. Out of the ones I've had the chance to decosmo and fire, the M38 is the most accurate and my favorite.

jmm

Trebor
June 30, 2006, 06:21 AM
There's a lot of difference between the stamped captured 91/30's and the Tikka 91/30's. Your's has the Tikka "T" and potbelly stock. It's a Finn construction, not just a rebuild.

The Finns never manufactured their own receivers. All Finn Mosins are therefore "rebuilds." Some were rebuilt more then others though and in some cases the original receiver is about the only remaining original part of the gun.

Dark Helmet
July 2, 2006, 01:03 AM
Finn M39 antiques www.gunsnammo.com :D

grimjaw
July 9, 2006, 05:14 PM
Picked up a replica Mosin Nagant PU from Classic Arms a couple of weeks ago, finally got it out to the range today. It's a Tula 'hex' receiver made in 1929, excellent shape.

http://www.grimjaw.net/mig/albums/theboomgoesthere/1857.jpg

Assuming the optic was solid, I figured I would get better groups just from having it available. At worst, it would shoot like a typical 91/30 and maybe manage 4-6 MOA. It does just a bit better than that. :)

http://www.grimjaw.net/mig/albums/theboomgoesthere/1860.jpg

The shot marked in orange was aimed at that point, not a flier. These were all with Wolf 148gr bimetal FMJ. I think the best part of the day was popping the 450 yard gong with every shot, whilst the poor fellas with the bull-barrelled, holographic-sighted AR couldn't manage to hit 200. :D

Whoever did the work to mount the rail did it well. The scope was quick to adjust and maintained zero. I had a couple of feeding problems, but I'm pretty sure it was due to some goop left in the magazine. It's also hefty; much better to shoot it supported or have lots of upper body strength to steady it. This is a very nice gun, if a little expensive for a Mosin Nagant. Considering it's over 70 years old and still tougher than many other $600+ rifles, I don't feel cheated.

jmm

Davo
July 9, 2006, 07:43 PM
That sniper could have ruined a Nazi's day from quite a ways off...

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