[Soybomb]

http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/393992p-333984c.html

Shoot to hurt, pol urges cops

Daily News Exclusive

BY JOE MAHONEY
DAILY NEWS ALBANY BUREAU CHIEF

ALBANY - Sen. David Paterson is pushing a bill that would require cops to shoot to wound, rather than using deadly force - drawing outrage from officers.

The bill also would create a new provision for second-degree manslaughter that would be reserved specifically for an officer who "uses more than the minimal amount necessary" to stop a crime suspect.

Paterson, who is on Eliot Spitzer's ticket as lieutenant governor, has reintroduced the bill twice since first sponsoring it in 2001, refusing to let it die.

In a memo urging its passage, Paterson wrote: "There is no justification for terminating another's life when a less extreme measure may accomplish the same objective."

Current law gives cops a wide berth to use deadly force when a suspect presents a danger to another person's life.

Paterson (D-Harlem) wrote that a police officer, under his legislation, "would have to try toshoot a suspect in the arm or the leg."

"This bill shows absolutely no understanding of just how difficult it is for a police officer when they get into situations requiring the use of deadly force," John Grebert, director of the New York State Association of Chiefs of Police, told the Daily News.

His sentiment was echoed by Dan DeFedericis, president of the New York State Troopers PBA, who said: "We are definitely opposed to this bill ... and we strongly believe it could endanger the lives of police officers and innocent civilians."

While Spitzer already has the endorsement of the New York City Patrolmen's Benevolent Association, that group's Albany lobbyist, John Poklemba, said, "This bill is very ill conceived. I can't imagine any police agencies not being opposed to it."

Paterson told The News last night that his bill would safeguard the public. He explained that he wrote the bill in response to the acquittal of four NYPD officers charged in the 1999 shooting death of the unarmed Amadou Diallo in the Bronx.

"Many people were surprised the officers weren't guilty of something, criminally negligent homicide or something that involved some negligence," he said. "I thought I was writing the bill that really mirrored what the department rules are."

A Spitzer spokesman declined to comment.

Originally published on February 23, 2006
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Hmm I figured that'd come out of CA first.

[crazed_ss]

WOW.. just... Wow

Politicians are so out of touch... The sad thing is average people will here this and say "great idea.."

[Azrael256]

Personally, I think those mean cops should be stripped of all their weapons and armed only with nerf bats. If a violent felon cannot be brought to justice with a few whacks from a foam block, then is it really worth it to society to have him incarcerated? Is it worth the mental anguish that his friends and family will no doubt suffer? Must we traumatize our fellow citizens, the children in particular, with the sight of police officers brutally and needlessly gunning down a blood-soaked knife-wielding serial killer when they could just as easily subdue him with kindness, chamomile tea, and campfire songs? How long must this violence continue? Won't you please think of the children.

Tonge firmly in cheek,
Azzy

[jobu07]

There is a reason that Mr. Patterson, a democrat, is a member of the NYS Senate Minority party... A majority of New Yorkers do not agree with his point of view here.

[sgratra]

In a memo urging its passage, Paterson wrote: "There is no justification for terminating another's life when a less extreme measure may accomplish the same objective."

I agree - give officers the training and ability to use nonlethal force in addition to lethal force training.

Paterson (D-Harlem) wrote that a police officer, under his legislation, "would have to try toshoot a suspect in the arm or the leg."

WOW, I am speechless. I normally try and keep an open mind, but this is absolute insanity. I thought the general consensus was that if a situation allowed for a person to "pick his shot" lethal force was not warranted.

This makes me love Texas a little more.

[fjolnirsson]

I can see it now....
Innocent citizens wounded and killed by officers trying to "wing" a suspect. Veteran officers quitting in droves, while New York descends even further into lawlessness. Warlords cordoning off whole sections of the city, forbidding police and public alike from entering....
Half of the force being sued under the new law for unnecessary force, the other half up on charges of reckless endangerment for harming innnocents. Good times, good times....:scrutiny:

It'll be like Escape From New York, without Snake Plissken.

[perpster]

Some more details of this proposed PRNY legislation:

A police officer winging a right-handed person in the right arm shall be guilty of a Felony.

A police officer winging a left-handed person in the left arm shall be guilty of a Felony.

Failure to ask a criminal which is his/her dominant hand before winging them shall be a misdemeanor. An officer shall NOT be permitted to presume dominant hand merely by observation of which hand the criminal is holding his/her firearm in.

A police officer who kills an innocent bystander by failing to properly wing a criminal shall receive the death penalty with no right of appeal.

A criminal shooting a police officer center mass shall be guilty of an infraction, unless said police officer shall be saved by his/her vest in which case the criminal shall be warned and admonished.

[c_yeager]

This is what happens when the people and the police start playing on different teams.

[Autolycus]

This is what happens when the people and the police start playing on different teams.


Exactly.

Though I have very strong views about the LEO community this is a ridiculous idea.

[Merkin.Muffley]

I have a neighbor who apparently shoots to wound deer. It's messy. Two years ago he shot the leg off one, last year he gut shot one (twice). I hope the NY police aren't planning on eating the folks they wound - my dogs wouldn't even eat the deer he gut shot.

[Helmetcase]

This seems like a tough one to enforce: "Yes, Lieutenant, I was shooting for his elbow but missed up and left and got him centermass on accident."

:barf:

[RangerHAAF]

Why don't they give every cop silver bullets and have them shoot the guns out of the hands of suspects, like the Lone Ranger used to do?

[Maxwell]

I somehow doubt this guy Paterson ever used a weapon, much less that he would be qualified to write a law reguarding weapons. Maybe they should have someone from the military, a person with proper training and experience, come and review this crazy idea of his.

I feel sorry for the officer whos life is in danger that is now trying to make a trick-shot. Its hard enough to hit someone with a pistol, harder if they move, damn near impossible at night, and now the politicians want cops to shoot for critical joints? :scrutiny:

Sounds like a feat beyond the capabilities of meer mortals. At best it wont work, at worst it will cause alot of undue suffering and could get many officers killed.

[El Tejon]

I would hire Chuck Norris and have him teach the po-po to roundhouse kick the perps into submission just like he does on Walker, Texas Ranger.:D

A New York City cop in elf boots! That I got to see.:D

[Black Dragon]

Isn't this the city were three cops shot at a guy 41 times and only hit him
with 8 rounds? It's hard enough to hit the target when you are in the heat
of the chase/battle. Now they have to aim at a much smaller target (I.E.
Arm, leg, whatnot)?
I feel sorry for the cops because I see a lot more of them getting hurt then
the bad guys because the bad guys aren't going to be playing by the same
rules (not that they ever do in the first case).

[beerslurpy]

I think this is awesome. Let the NY police labor under the same disabilities as the rest of the public. I love the police's shock at the intrusiveness of the NY government. Like that hasnt been a problem since the late 1800s.

Shoot to wound is too funny. I wonder how many attorney-years are going to be spent debating the intent behind a leg shot that severs the femoral artery. If anything, they should give the cops padded batons and have them play tag with violent felons. What could possibly go wrong. "Tag, I got you! Now you have to come to jail for 25 years. Hey youre cheating! Ow stop shooting me!"

[Lupinus]

Shoot to wound is too funny. I wonder how many attorney-years are going to be spent debating the intent behind a leg shot that severs the femoral artery. If anything, they should give the cops padded batons and have them play tag with violent felons. What could possibly go wrong. "Tag, I got you! Now you have to come to jail for 25 years. Hey youre cheating! Ow stop shooting me!"
HAHA

That made my day

you going to be at the Hernando county sportsmen's club this Sunday for the machine gun shoot?

[armoredman]

All joking aside, if I were LE there, with that new restriction, I would quit. Instantly. Too many Departments looking for qualified people to play that game.

[Maxwell]

Half of me is wondering if its an end run around the law, not unlike that think in cali with the death penalty.

They cant stop the use of a death penalty, so they claim that it causes pain and they need a doctor to stop the pain... then of course no doctor is legally capable of taking part in the exicution, so no one can stop the pain and all exicutions are cancelled.

The conspiracy theorist in me says they hand down an impossible order for firarms use, wait for the misses, officers injured, and innocent bystanders hit stats to roll in, then come back and claim all guns are useless for the cops.

[Geno]

Now, we all know that any of US can shoot the hair off a tic's butt at 2,000 paces-- :banghead:

Shoot to "wound", it's so far-fetched that it is nearly an oxymoron. Reverse this--man on trial,

"Honest, Judge--I 'uz jus' tryin' ta wing 'im. I weren't a tryin' ta kill 'im!"

To which the judge would replay,

"Do you really think that you can shoot a projectile through a human being, and not run a serious risk of KILLING?"

This is foolishness. It will needless endanger police AND citizens. If this is what they want, surrender the autoloaders and revolvers and buy Contenders with scopes or reddots. Better yet Paintball pistols.

Can you imagine the lawsuits that are going to come on from this?!?!?!? Lordy!!!! Think about it--testimony to the jury,

"I'd rather be dead than crippled from the waist down jury. Why didn't he just kill me?! But, I might feel better ifin' I had say, 'bout 2 million dollars; naw, make that 3 million."

I need to stop! Sorry, but this is just wrong on so many levels that it's... :banghead:

Doc2005

[Huntzman]

Is what you might call a race card player, always has been, always will be... I would easily through him up with the likes of Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson. The media spotlight is like a beacon in the night for him. The fact that he is running for Lt. Governor should be a very scary thought to NY residents.

I was a member of the NYPD for twenty years. I will be the first one to go on record and say that our firearms instruction is not the greatest in the world. Not from apathy, but just through sheer volume. Consider for a moment that you have a force somewhere in the area of 35,000 that need to qualify twice a year. You have roughly 260 days to train this amount of officers twice. That doesn't take into consideration the sheer volume of events covered annually by the NYPD. Half the time you only have two fifty point ranges in operation. They used to shoot day tours and 4X12 tours, but the area residents went to court and shut the evening ranges down because it disturbed them.

Before anyone cites Diallo, I would recommend that they read the individual transcripts of the court case. There was a lot more going on then what was reported in the mainstream media (I know, hard to believe right....).

Who here would like the opportunity to draw their firearm, middle of the night, chase someone through some backyards for a block and half and try and shoot precision shooting (arm or leg please, avoid the femoral artery please.....) The grand prize is another day on patrol. However, If you can't hit the target, you fail and go to jail. :neener:

As for less than lethal, that might be an option in smaller jurisdictions, but in NYC budegtary constraints and apathy at the highest levels often means that street cops have to make due with what they have. No fancy tennis ball shooters, or spidey nets.

It's easy to blame cops for eveything wrong in this world, especially when you have been on the wrong end off an incident with them. But before you start making blanket statements, try going with an unbiased look at the matter. As gun owners, we all get tired of being called to task by the media and gun grabbing politicians when some lunatic gets hold of an AK and shoots up a fast food place. Yet alot of times I see all out cop bashing occur here based on the stupidty of one individual (just because they wear a uniform, doesn't make them less human). If it's wrong for them to do to us, it's equally wrong when we do it.

IMHO

[perpster]

Actually, under NY laws, deadly physical force can only be used when you reasonably believe deadly physical force is about to be used against you or another person without justification (there is a small list of crimes where dpf can be used, such as rape, also), BUT IN ALL CASES dpf is to be used to STOP THE CRIME FROM BEING COMMITTED, not to kill and not to wound.

[perpster]

"They used to shoot day tours and 4X12 tours, but the area residents went to court and shut the evening ranges down because it disturbed them."

Huntzman is right on this--one of the local residents (City Island) is Mayor Bloomberg's daughter. Maybe a wounded plaintiff can sue him for NYPD's lack of firearms proficiency, either as Mayor or billionaire.

Maybe all NYPD guns should be equipped with camera chips that record the sight picture when the trigger is pulled. Nah. Why not just implant microchips into each officers body and record his thought processes during a shooting incident.

Will wonders never cease.

[LAR-15]

So if he is Spitzer's running mate for governor, then will they get police backing?

[Huntzman]

Sad thing is that the police officers union seems to be backing Spitzer. I regret this, because I think it's the wrong choice to send a democrat back to the Capital. They made a royal mess of things prior to the current Governor coming into office.

I think their position is that Spitzer is the likely victor because the Republican field is not that good. So they want to side with him upfrront. Why does the saying "when you sleep with the devil...." come to mind :evil:

Glad I am not there anymore. I think the Spitzer / Paterson ticket will be a step back to those dark days, especially for gun owners.

[ArmedBear]

The police are getting exactly what they deserve. Sell your soul to a union, and you have to give the devil his due sooner or later.

There are lots of cities that need cops, with better standards of living, lower real estate prices, lower taxes, better weather, and lower crime rates. I'd advise NY cops to learn to shoot and go apply.

When the city has no cops, things will change, but not so long as the cops put up with the crap that they do. NYC doesn't DESERVE law enforcement.

[RaggedClaws]

Paterson is an idiot, that much is clear.

Just so we're all clear, this bill is not law and most likely will never become law. Paterson has introduced it twice before, and both times it was shot down.

[DontBurnMyFlag]

:banghead: I remember a a college professor in I think it was North Carolina who always wrote critical articles about the police. Constantly was he harassing and critizing their techniques. The police got fed up, they told him to put on a uniform and try it out. He lasted a month, realized how stressful the job is, and stopped writing crappy articles about the police.

I think this senator should put on a uniform, walk around the Bronx for 1 day, 24 hours, and see if he would really feel the same way when he is done.

:cuss: :banghead: :fire: :cuss: :banghead: :fire: :cuss: :banghead: :fire: :cuss: :banghead: :fire: :cuss: :banghead: :fire: :cuss:

[tellner]

Shooting to wound still gives them infinitely more options than regular citizens in NYC.

[Turkey Creek]

Shooting to wound?- Nahh, lets go one better- In the great tradition of the Plains Indians, make them count coup- They will have to display their ability and courage as Urban Warriors to get close enough to the BG to touch him without being killed- The BG's in turn will feel so shamed that they will go home and stay with the women never to be included in another war party- Yup, that'll work :neener:

[sm]

<Robin Williams voice>

Jack...time out please. You are not going to believe this, but I brought the wrong ammo this morning...-Some movie - I forget the name of...

I'm not so sure about some things...

-Society suing over every and anything. Now even a LEO is even MORE restricted in trying to do an already tough dangerous duty.

-Criminals are wired different for sure. Seems some are "Less Dumb" - in fact Sly as a Fox , by getting positions on various boards that make up Rules and Regulations.

-Criminals must be making money to keep buying Attorneys, and Board Positions.

-Criminals already know more about various laws and jurisdictions than many civilians, use of this knowledge work FOR Criminals and AGAINST LEO, and Civilians.

I mean crimianals know where folks can and cannot CCW, or possess firearms for protection. They go to these places instead of where Folks can and do use rights to protect themselves.

-There is a place for Training in lethal and non-lethal force, Officers and civilians alike need this training.

So now all a criminal has to do - when decided the outside is not longer wanted, too hard, or cannot adjust to - is have hand in a pocket and pretend to want money, or whatever crime, get "winged" and get even a better deal on "3 hots and a cot" without the striped sunshine.

One of these days Jurisdictions are going to wake up / Walk into office and the Jurisdiction is not longer theirs. All thier desks empty and in boxes set downstairs and more Criminals will be in nice Jurisdiction office bldgs dictating bigger and better crimes, pocketing bigger sums of money and graft.

LEO -won't be needed, outmanned and outgunned anyway...

Juridictions will have thier own protection persons...

Boy I wonder what role the Jurisdiction head honchos that were used as pawns to arrive at this State...are gonna play?

Gonna be some real sturdy cement foundations poured I suspect. ;)

History can be good teacher if one chooses to pay attention and learn...

[LAR-15]

But when he becomes LG will demand all NY state agencies adopt a shoot to wound policy?? :confused:

[Waitone]

waaay too much time on his hands.
Musta stopped off at the stop and rob and got a giant cup o stupid. :fire:

[PATH]

Senator Paterson cannot shoot properly nor patrol a neighborhood as a police officer. The senator is visually impaired. He is to the left of Karl Marx though!

People deserve the government they elect. As soon as my obligations here in NYS are finished I am moving away! The place is fast becoming a leftist hell hole of epic proportions!:(

[jobu07]

I remember a a college professor in I think it was North Carolina who always wrote critical articles about the police. Constantly was he harassing and critizing their techniques. The police got fed up, they told him to put on a uniform and try it out. He lasted a month, realized how stressful the job is, and stopped writing crappy articles about the police.

I think this senator should put on a uniform, walk around the Bronx for 1 day, 24 hours, and see if he would really feel the same way when he is done.

As someone else pointed out, it's not physically possible for Patterson to patrol. Not only is he blind, but he is also resigned to a wheelchair.

That aside, i'd certainly like to see the PBA come out in favor of either Mr. Weld, Mr. Faso, or Mr. Manning. The trick is to wittle the GOP field down to just one of the three qualified gentlemen running. If all three remain challengers, or perhaps that 4th one..., Spitzer or Souzzi will win this race without breaking a sweat.