[Lebe]

http://www.straightgoods.ca/ViewNote3.cfm?REF=146

:rolleyes:

Hardly the equivilent of the fall of the Berlin Wall,... such as was reported by the American Kiddie News networks.

[COHIBA]

the moon landing was faked, too.

[Ebbtide]

Hardly the equivilent of the fall of the Berlin Wall,... such as was reported by the American Kiddie News networks.

Do you have a link to back-up that statement? I don't know what you were watching but I did not hear anyone mention the Berlin wall :confused:

[Lebe]

http://www.smh.com.au/text/articles/2003/04/10/1049567806781.htm

From the article:

"It is noteworthy that the US Secretary of Defence, Donald Rumsfeld, a strong disciple of the military-power-for-global-change
faith, said he saw the fall of Saddam as equal to the collapse of the Berlin Wall. "

[Lebe]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A1392-2003Apr9.html

I must have seen FOX show the Rumsfeld "Berlin Wall" statement 10 times or more.

[Ebbtide]

Close, but no cigar.

1. Figurative language by Donald Rumsfeld does not equal:

such as was reported by the American Kiddie News networks.

2. That is not a United States news source.

3. That is an editorial/opinion piece, not news.

Keep trying!

ehenz

[Lebe]

The Washington Post isn't a US news service?

I did a word search to find the documentation for you, ehenz. Something that you could have obviously done yourself had you been interested in finding out about the story instead of trying to discredit me. I found numerous sources for Rumsfelds comparison of the "alledged" fall of Baghdad to the fall of the Berlin wall, and as I said, I heard it numerous times throughout the day on FOX news. It wasn't exactly buried then and it's not buried now.

I find your response a bit odd.

[Ebbtide]

I think I don't understand the intent of you post.

Are you saying the U.S. media is wrong in the way Rumsfeld comments are reported, or are you saying Rumsfeld is inaccurate in his analogy between the two fallen governments?

At first glance your post seems to lean more towards bashing the media's reporting, not Rumsfeld.

Excuse me if there is some confusion.

Ehenz

Oh, it seems you were posting the W. Post article as I was typing mine.

[OF]

People can take pot shots at this war till the cows come home. Was the statue coming down a staged event? What difference does it make. Were there 200 people in that square or 2000? Or even 20? Again, what difference does it make.

Now Amnesty International is crying about the looting and 'humanitatian crisis' in Iraq and how 'little' the US is doing about it.

ARE YOU EFFING KIDDING ME????

- Gabe

[Ebbtide]

I don't want to put words in your mouth, but is this what you mean:

...Hardly the equivilent of the fall of the Berlin Wall,... such as was stated by Secretary of Defence, Donald Rumsfeld.

[Lebe]

Oh,.. I don't really believe that you're as confused as you want to act. (I hope not, anyway!)

The toppling of the statue was a media event which was designed to imply that there was enormous support for the American troops in Bagdad. This was done by keeping the cameras following the event "up close and personal", giving the impression that it was a hugh crowd. An administation representative (Rumsfeld) helped to propagate such an impression by comparing the event as being tantamount to the fall of the Berlin Wall. The American public was repeatedly beaten about the head and shoulders by the film and by Rumsfelds statement.

Can you say "propaganda"?

The airiel photo of the event puts it in it's proper perspective. Well,... at least it does for anyone who didn't suffer brain damage from the battering by the media lackeys who perpetuated the whole thing.

[Lebe]

Any further discussion of the event between you and I would simply be a waste of bandwidth. You have my posts. Obviously, you're free to make what you will of them.

I have no time for petty exchanges.

[JohnBT]

Hey, at least we have an international news network. If you don't believe what you see don't watch it. And don't forget, we complain about the government and the news media more than anyone.

Okay, let's say the statue thing was staged. That changes what exactly how? It still isn't as funny as that poor guy making speeches day after day about how Iraq was winning the war. He must have had a gun or three pointed at his head.

As long as I'm typing, how about that kid's palace? He had everything he needed...a big book of hookers' names with ratings, a framed picture of the Bush twins, good wine and whiskey, and don't forget the bags of heroin. I read in the morning paper that some soldiers smoked his Cuban cigars

John

[OF]

So, the entire US media establishment, who overall have not been what one could term 'pro-war', are in on the conspiracy? Would this be the same media that was taking it's cues and scripts from the Iraqi information ministry and running their words on air as if they were CNN's? This is the media that is a 'lapdog' of the DoD?

Riiiiight.

- Gabe

[Lebe]

John,.. you ask how the fact that the "statue thing" changes anything if it was indeed staged,... as it appears that it was.

To me, and to many others, it changes the amount of trust that we have in the accuracy and truthfulness of our media.

I'm not saying that *everything* that the media reports is a lie, but how are we supposed to differentiate between the truth and the lies when it becomes apparent that they occasionally (more than ocasionally, actually) see the need to lie to the people?

I view the media just as I view an individual. If they get caught lying to me once, I'll forever doubt anything that they say,... and that's where I am now,.. extremely doubtful of the American media,.... and that attitude is being constantly reinforced by the repeated lies that they foist on the public.

[Lebe]

GRD,.. most of the media that I've been exposed to has been EXTREMELY pro-war. Indeed, the FOX reporters will crucify anyone who voices any dissent about the war.

[Drjones]

GRD,.. most of the media that I've been exposed to has been EXTREMELY pro-war. Maybe that's because they understand the facts, truth, and logic behind this war, and have decided that it is a necessary action.

Time for you to do the same?

:rolleyes:

If they get caught lying to me once, I'll forever doubt anything that they say,... and that's where I am now,.. extremely doubtful of the American media,.... and that attitude is being constantly reinforced by the repeated lies that they foist on the public.

Gee, we gun-owners wouldn't know anything about media lies, would we? :rolleyes:

[OF]

FOX is a lone voice in the crowd. The mainstream american media (CNN and NY Times especially) have been extremely anti-war, to the point of ridiculousness.

I'm not saying that the statue toppling wasn't 'staged'. I just get the impression that your idea of 'staged' is Rumsfeld dictating to CNN what they can and cannot take pictures of or report on the air and how they have to spin said coverage. My idea of staged is somebody on the ground saying "Hey, lets take this statue down. You reporters want a good story? Check this out."

<crunch>

- Gabe

[Drjones]

Lebe, one more thing:

You can sit here all day and try to get us to wear tinfoil hats and dream up all sorts of conspiracy theories.

Not only do most of us here, myself included, not care, but it doesn't matter.

I could care less about the "liberation of the Iraqi people."

Sure, I think it is a wonderful byproduct of this war, but it is not the sole reason (nor should it even be a main reason) for this war.

This war is all about America defending herself and her interests.

Defending herself from a sick dictator with a long history of supporting terrorism, and who posesses and continues to proliferate WMD.

Yes, we might even be waging this war *gasp* to defend our oil interests in the region.

And there ain't a darn thing wrong with that.

As a sovereign nation we have EVERY right to defend ourselves and our interests.

If you don't like that, you are welcome to leave and never return.

[QKRTHNU]

Do you honestly think the Military would allow hordes of out of control Iraqi citizens to swarm in around them while they pull a statue down? Considering all of the suicide-attack attempts I hardly think that sounds like a good idea.

On the other side of the coin though, the media should have made it more clear how things really went down. But then you are expecting a lot from the media.

#1. They always sensationalize everything.
#2. Even if they weren't sensationalizing they were most likely "Appeasing". Think about it. They have been allowed to participate to an unprecedented level during this war. I doubt they want to risk loosing that opportunity and they'll most likely be willing to fudge / embellish some reports to make sure they don't.

[OF]

Easy there, Dr. :) Lebe has been pretty polite so far...sort of. No need to start deportation proceedings quite yet. ;)

- Gabe

[Drjones]

Easy there, Dr. Lebe has been pretty polite so far...sort of. No need to start deportation proceedings quite yet.

- Gabe

I'm merely reminding him of one of his many freedoms as an American. (If he is one...do you live here, lebe?)

:D

[Lebe]

Strange perspective you have there, Drjones. On one hand, you acknowledge that the media lies to the people about the circumstances surrounding the firearm issue in order to further their agenda,... then, on the other hand, you encourage them to do and say what is necessary concerning the war in Iraq because "they have decided that it's a necessary action" (here's the ?!)
A rather classic example of Orwellian "doublethink".

Are you saying that it's the medias responsibility to "decide what is necessary" for our society?!

I can't decide if your posts are for real or satire. I'll choose to view them as satire. It's simply too depressing to actually believe that an American really thinks as you do.

[Felonious Monk]

JohnBT-- you saidOkay, let's say the statue thing was staged. That changes what exactly how? It PROVES that the entire thing is a machination of the Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy!

Lebe has been assimilated by the ranks of frothing, hysterical "America is the Sum of All Eevyil" proselytes; you know, the views perpetuated by the Michael Parentis and Noam Chomskys of the world.

It's all a One World Government plot of the Bilderbergers and the Skull and Bones society.

Seriously, isn't it funny how all the mad liberals think the media is a tool of the Right's agenda, while the blinded conservatives are convinced the national media is in the pocket of the DNC?

Amazing. :rolleyes:

[LawDog]

GRD,.. most of the media that I've been exposed to has been EXTREMELY pro-war.

:scrutiny: Are you in the United States? If so, during this little tussle were you watching or reading anything other than Fox?

As far as the link you posted goes -- unless the old boy behind Ahmed Chalabi got a nose job during the time after the first shot and before the second, the second shot ain't him.

Hell, it's obvious. Look at the bridge of the nose on the gentleman in the left hand photo. At eye level you can see where his nose has been broken in the past - there is a clear "step-down" in the line of the nose from tip to forehead.

Now, look at the gentleman in the right-hand pic. Yes, I know he's screaming, but look at the line of his nose from tip to forehead. Do you see the "step-down"? I don't either.

Now, look where the base of the nose joins the face. The first gentleman has very little flare where the nose joins the upper lip.

Over to the second man. Nice broad flare. Broad enough that it looks like he's been chasing parked cars.

The one guy isn't the other.

If one part of your evidence is suspect, all of your evidence is tainted.

LawDog

[pax]

http://www.straightgoods.ca/ViewNote3.cfm?REF=146

I didn't see a byline on that article. Was it Mohammed Saeed al-Sahaaf?

pax

Once a newspaper touches a story, the facts are lost forever, even to the protagonists. -- Norman Mailer

[rick_reno]

I chalk this up to being our first "TV war", and sure they'll be mistakes, shots will be cued up wrong, some of the local actors employed won't have visited makeup and costume before going on camera. These aren't unusual with first time efforts. I'm sure they'll get better at this with the next one. Personally, I liked seeing the statue fall, it really was a great moment. I hope next time they run one of these TV wars they get the clocks syncronized a little better - having daybreak there during prime time viewing here didn't work for me. They need to establish a rule that the country being invaded should be in a time zone that gives us stateside viewers some afternoon shots that they can then fade into evening.

[Keith_Yorktown]

I suppose the canadians are in on the conspiracy too...

http://www.canoe.ca/CNEWS/World/2003/04/09/61233-ap.html

The toppling of the statue in Baghdad’s Paradise Square was highly symbolic on a day when emboldened Iraqis cheered U.S. troops and celebrated what they saw as the end of Saddam’s rule. With Saddam’s feared security forces nowhere in sight, Baghdad residents also went on a looting free-for-all, stripping government ministries, even police stations and military posts.

“I’m 49, but I never lived a single day. Only now will I start living,” said Yussuf Abed Kazim, a preacher at a local mosque who bashed the Saddam statue with a sledgehammer as other Iraqis yelled, “Hit the eye! Hit the eye!”

“That Saddam Hussein is a murderer and a criminal,” Kazim said.


Many in the crowd beat their chests and chanted, “There is a burning in our chests,” a Shiite Muslim slogan. Celebrations were particularly strong in Baghdad’s Shiite neighborhoods, like Saddam City in the northeast. In one area, hundreds of jubilant Shiites shouted, “There is no god but Allah!” waving palm fronds and prayer stones.

Shiites make up the majority in Iraq but have long felt oppressed at the hands of Saddam’s largely Sunni Muslim government.

The Saddam statue in Firdos Square, the Arabic word for Paradise, was in the melodramatic Soviet style, depicting the Iraqi president standing tall in civilian clothes with his right arm raised in a wave to his people. Its fall, broadcast live across the Arab world on satellite television, recalled images of Lenin’s statue being pulled down in Russia during the Soviet Union’s collapse.

After the crowd tried for more than an hour to being the statue down, the Marines stepped in to help with a winch on a tank recovery vehicle. The first pull brought the statue halfway down, dangling off its 25-foot-high pedestal as the crowd pelted it with garbage.

Another tug, and it broke in half, leaving only the twisted metal of the feet with two rusted pipes sticking out of them.

Of course, video of the crowd trying to bring the statue down by themselves for more than an hour with no success, wasn't as dramatic as the Marines doing it.

[Keith_Yorktown]

Interesting in all the articles about this I've looked at so far, not one describes the crowd as massive.

I've seen reference to a thousand cheering Iraqis comming out onto the streets as the Americans entered Baghdad on that day. But it doesn't say they all congregated on the square near Saddams statue. I think it more likely that the troops were met by a large numer of small crowds.

FoxNews story on this...

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,83682,00.html

It began when a crowd of several hundred Iraqis threw a rope around the neck of the statue, which depicts the Iraqi president in civilian clothes, his right arm raised high in greeting to his people.

Some bashed at the 25-foot-tall base with a sledgehammer.

"I'm 49, but I never lived a single day. Only now will I start living," Yussuf Abed Kazim, a mosque preacher, said as he whacked away, knocking tile and concrete off the pedestal. "That Saddam Hussein is a murderer and a criminal."

The crowd pelted the statue with shoes and slippers — a gross insult in the Arab world — while a column of U.S. armor sat in the square, a large roundabout ringed with columns in front of the blue-domed Shahid Mosque.

The crowd, however, appeared unable to bring the statue down, or unsure how to do it safely.

The Marines got into the act, climbing up and briefly covering Saddam's face with an American flag like a hood. They replaced it with the black-white-and-red Iraqi flag, wrapped around the statue's neck.

The Americans then put their winch's cable in place, waved the crowd back out the way, and began to pull.

[Keith_Yorktown]

And here's an interesting article at the heart of the issue...

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/text/134673496_kay11m.html

Seen one, seen 'em fall.

The overthrow of Saddam Hussein statues in Iraq has become, by virtue of repetition, the photo op of the war. By late yesterday, news anchors were inserting self-conscious phrases like "now-obligatory ritual" to introduce the inevitable footage.

Less agreed on was which image to use.

The sight most frequently seen Wednesday on foreign TV — that of Marines giving Saddam's giant likeness a Stars-and-Stripes facial — was rarely shown here.

Instead, American networks and cable channels opted for the topple: the same statue getting pulled down in central Baghdad and subsequently trampled by jubilant Iraqis.

The divergence in selection is par for the course. At this stage of the war, the split between U.S. television coverage and that of the rest of the world frequently mimics the split between the U.S. administration and the United Nations.

What it amounts to on the screen is choice of spin. As viewers with access to overseas coverage can attest, the news media's apparent lack of independence from either government influence or popular taste is rampant throughout much of the world, be it Western or Arab. The BBC is a rare exception.

Al-Jazeera and networks in Syria and Lebanon were even more out of context Wednesday. They showed only the U.S. flag draped on the statue's face, not the cheering crowds greeting its downfall and destroying it afterward.

Mind you, television news producers in this country probably were aware that Wednesday's money shot wasn't the perfect symbol of Iraqi un-repression.

When the scene first appeared on American television, audiences were led to assume that the Iraqi people had felled the statue themselves, possibly with — as one badly uninformed CNN anchor speculated — a crane. It was all quite fuzzy.

But as TV elsewhere around the globe aired tape that revealed U.S. Marines playing a major role in the takedown, reports here became sharper. The flag-draping was shown, albeit mostly in stories about Arab reaction.

Even so, the iconic image that came to be displayed over and over on ABC, CBS, NBC, Fox, CNN and MSNBC was a close-up of the statue falling, not a wide-angle of the M88 armored vehicle pulling it.

So it was with almost perceptible relief yesterday that anchors and correspondents reported a fresh wave of demolition to artwork portraying the missing dictator.

[Lebe]

Here's another article which attempts to inflate the significance of the "statue yank",... one again invoking the fall of the Berlin wall. Even if the crowd *did* number 300 (it appears much smaller in the airial photo) there is nothing that can happen in a backwater like Iraq which can equal the demise of one of the worlds superpowers,... the end of the (first) "cold war".

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,83736,00.html

To attempt to portray it as such goes beyond yellow journalism,... it's nothing less than a slap in the face to anyone with any sense of proportion and history.

Why did the media attempt to give it such significance?,... lol,..Dubya wants to be Reagan II,.. and there's only so many Berlin walls to knock down,... a man's gotta work with what's available to him.

During Reagans administration, Eastern Europe gained access to western civilization. During Dubyas administration, Iraqi looters gained access to air conditioners.

*shrugg*,.. it's kinda the same thing it you have a few drinks and think about it.

[Dannyboy]

one again invoking the fall of the Berlin wall. Even if the crowd *did* number 300 (it appears much smaller in the airiel photo) there is nothing that can happen in a backwater like Iraq which can equal the demise of one of the nations superpowers,... the end of the (first) "cold war".
That's your opinion. Who's to say that the fall of Iraq won't have the same sort of effect on the Middle East that the fall of the Berlin Wall had on Eastern Europe? Either way, I'd be willing to bet that the Iraqis would disagree with you.

[JohnBT]

Lebe -

If you don't like President Bush and if you don't like Saddam getting his butt kicked...just say so. There's no need to nitpick at the reporters and the networks for what they reported and how they reported it. All that is of little or no consequence in the scheme of things.

And what exactly have Iraq's neighbors done recently, or ever, to help the people of Iraq? Shame of them for letting Saddam stay in power all of these years. Eternal shame is theirs.

John

[MeekandMild]

Look at the bridge of the nose on the gentleman in the left hand photo. At eye level you can see where his nose has been broken in the past - there is a clear "step-down" in the line of the nose from tip to forehead. Now, look at the gentleman in the right-hand pic. Yes, I know he's screaming, but look at the line of his nose from tip to forehead. Do you see the "step-down"? I don't either. Now, look where the base of the nose joins the face. The first gentleman has very little flare where the nose joins the upper lip. Over to the second man. Nice broad flare. Broad enough that it looks like he's been chasing parked cars. Nope. The nose slides up a little bit and flairs duing such exercies. You can see the same step off on the second figure, except that is has slid up a half centimeter and everted to reverse the shadow pattern. When a person yells like that the nostrils do flair in such a manner.

You can demonstrate quite a lot of movement yourself by making a line of indellible marker (I'd recommend purple or green or other easy to see color) across the bridge of your own nose at rest then with your face scrunced up while you yell at the top of your lungs. You can use a mirror or a camera. :rolleyes:

[Drizzt]

Half the Iraqis I've seen on the news looked like that fellow... I think the other half were wearing burquas ;)

[cuchulainn]

dftt

[SkunkApe]

Lebe, there are those of us who realize the United States government marketed this war to gain the support of the American people. And there are many of us that bought it, like a king-sized bag of new-and-improved Cheesy Poofs.

[Lebe]

That's true, SkunkApe. If you sweep away the BS, you know that no-one really gives a rats a** about Iraq one way or the other. The government pumps peoples heads full of crap,.. gets them all stirred up by appealing to their nationalistic pride,.. first thing yanno, Big Brother is bombin' the puddin' outta somebody for something,... and anybody who doesn't step up and start cheering them on is a low down dirty dog! People support a war like this for it's entertainment value. It's just a great big mini series to them.

Grab some popcorn,.. pull up a chair, turn off your mind, and watch,...

"Iraqi Freedom!" (Part II)

[El Tejon]

So this war isn't to rid Western Civlisation of the New Barbary pirates, but to pump up media ratings?

WWII was not a war to civilize Europe and rid us of European fascism but to pump up script material for Hollywood?

[Lebe]

No,.. it's a war to make a hero out of a very mediocre President,... and if a little oil money gets tossed around as a result,.. well,... that's OK too,... and if Israel is happy about it,.. well,.. it's good to have AIPAC on your side come election day.

That's it in a nutshell.

[Sven]

Seems OT...

[El Tejon]

Lebe, you're are speaking of WWII and FDR, no?

Amazing how you went straight to AIPAC. Shocking.:rolleyes:

[Lebe]

Here's what a former CIA analyst had to say about the real impetus for this war,... and he said it back in February. Now that the administration is starting to get the populace stirred up about Syria, it's starting to ring more true by the minute.

http://www.counterpunch.org/christison02082003.html

It's one of the better "peeks behind the curtain" that I've found,.. definitely worth a read.

[El Tejon]

Billy Boy! Oh, come now.

Sure they are entire books about how FDR "knew" about Pearl Harbor and knew Germany would declare war on us. However, FDR did nothing because he was in the pocket of the Jews.

Delusional drivel then, drivel now. BTW, Bush said today that no militree action would be taken against Syria.

[Lebe]

I'm not quite sure that I understand the rationale for your insertion of WW2 and FDR into this discussion, Tejon.

Perhaps you'd like to start a thread of your own to discuss such matters.

[El Tejon]

Lebe, sorry, but it's a historical analogy. FDR was POTUS during WWII. WWII was a war to destroy the Axis and save the world from fascism. FDR's enemies claimed that he acted at the direction of the Jews.

Bush is the POTUS of the present war. This war is a war to destroy Middle Eastern fascism and save the world from them. Bush's enemies claim that Bush acts at the direction of the Jews.

[Destructo6]

Counterpunch doesn't qualify as a valid source.
GRD,.. most of the media that I've been exposed to has been EXTREMELY pro-war.
What media sources have you been exposing yourself to? Most of the CNN/MSNBC/etc types I've watched appear as though they are choking on a turd when they talk about US victory.

About the images in your link...the first is as the tanks were rolling in, the second appears that the statue is already down, the third shows a large crowd (larger than most "large" anti-war protests), and the fourth is too close to show much. Bottom line: they don't support your conclusion nor theirs.

I think Tejon was trying to say that just because you read it on "independent" news sources doesn't make it reliable. Remember, the Daily Worker was an "indie" news source, where you could find stuff you couldn't find anywhere else; mainly because it was bogus.

[Ebbtide]

Yes, it is true. The sky IS falling. Run for cover and watch out for brass!:rolleyes:

[El Tejon]

Des, right. Counterpunch and the Daily Worker have their own agendas, to destroy the West, especially America. It comes through in their reporting. Consider the source and all that, old boy.

[Lebe]

Why,.. thank you, Destructo, for pointing out to me what "bogus" is and isn't.

Let me get this straight,.. if it reflects your view of the world,.. it's legit,.. if it doesn't, it's "bogus".

How convenient,.. you're always correct. My congratulations.

Enjoying the popcorn?

[Lebe]

El Tetourney,.. the source for the Counterpunch article is an ex CIA political analyst.

You're a lawyer,...(ahem)

Who do you think that I'm going to believe? :D

After all,... you've been professionally trained to, shall we say, not allow yourself to be "encumbered" by the truth.

[Baba Louie]

The event was anti-climatic in the reality of the moment/second, but it certainly opened the door to quite a "Massive Uprising" if you want to call the free-for-all that followed The Real and Final Topple of Uncle Saddam.

It's like that was the secret signal for everyone to come on out and "Get Some".

People love to break down the moment and I suppose its a natural thing in todays media blitzed world, as opposed to seeing the blends and stream of the event unfolding.

More often than not, the press takes a shine to one particular moment and hails it "THE SHINING MOMENT", much to the grins and snickers of those who were there (TWWT). Like the Flag at Iwo, or MacArthurs "I Shall Return" wade onto shore.

An interesting three (+) weeks. Who topples next?

Adios

[Thumper]

I don't know who topples next, but they just caught Abu Abbas in Baghdad.

Wonder if that's a plausible link to terrorism? :D

Oh well, it was probably "staged." :rolleyes:

[MeekandMild]

No,.. it's a war to make a hero out of a very mediocre President,... That is an unsubstantiated assertion.

I will make the counter assertion and ask you to wait the 10-20 years that it will take for history to bear out the fact that this war was an action by a very good president in an attempt to stave off some of the deterioration in international relations caused by the past eight years of ineptitude and outright sabotage. The damage done by Clinton's sellout to the Chinese and their client, NK was much more overwhelming and will probably take longer to reverse.

[OF]

During Dubyas administration, Iraqi looters gained access to air conditioners. it's a war to make a hero out of a very mediocre Presidentif a little oil money gets tossed around as a resultIf that's the extent of your analysis of this war, I think I'll get my analysis elsewhere, thanks. You can't be serious. Can you? You actually believe that this country went to war because we wanted Bush to look good? That Bush's justification for war is to make money for his old oil buddies? For Cheney's ex-employer? Do you have any idea how insane that sounds? Do you have any idea how insulting that is? You are simultaneously suggesting that all the people who died in this effort died for worthless trivial causes and that all of the supporters of this war are nothing more than spoon-fed dupes.

At first I thought you were just being devil's-advocate and was willing to see how deep you could take this. Now I've seen that what you offer is nothing more than tired sophmore-year dismissive elitist socialist rhetoric. Geopolitics is a game played by adults. Not everyone here munches cheetos and swallows what the boob tube feeds them.

- Gabe

[Lebe]

GRD,.. before you jump to the conclusion that no one will sacrifice lives during wartime in order to bolster their ego, you should read an accurate biography of General George S Patton.

Patton sacrificed many American soldiers lives after the outcome of WW2 was a "given" just so he could get to Palermo ahead of Montgomery.

Never underestimate the callousness of the elite. Generally speaking, the elite are where they are as a result of stepping on others.

Money makes the world go 'round, my friend,... never doubt it.

[John G]

Lebe's posts are always so much fun. I love reading the conspiracy stuff, great entertainment.

[Lebe]

I can't recall mentioning any type of "conspiracy".

I suppose that you, like Hillary Clinton, also believe that all of the complaints against Bill Clinton was nothing more than the workings of a "vast right wing conspiracy", eh?

:rolleyes:

I see that you're a student from New York, JohnG,... well,... keep hittin' those books. Even a yankee can cast the scales from his eyes if he works hard at it for many years.

[John G]

"Even a yankee" huh? I'm an Orioles fan, but thanks anyway! I can't wait to see how the Moonies fit in to this story... :D

[Lebe]

Yeah,.. I suppose that it's recent news to you that Sun Myung Moon owns the Washington Times too.

I'm curious to see how you work that into just being some innuendo that's part of a conspiracy.

,.. when in effect,.. it's documentable fact,...

Do they teach you anything about the power of the press up there in New York? The founding fathers realized it's power,... hence, the first amendment.

,.. and the founder of the Unification Church,.. the "moonies" owns a right wing newspaper in our nations capitol,...

[Thumper]

Yep, Lebe...the attorneys and the yankees...AND THE MOONIES!: Bush's power base!

Hahaha...you're right, John; this guy's more fun than Baghdad Bob.

Bush did it all with smoke and mirrors!

Remember, gang...Bush is the evil despot and Hussein is the benevolent victim. Amazing!

:D

[Lebe]

I don't believe that I've ever referred to Hussein as either "benevolent" or a "victim".

Can you have a discussion without creating straw men to knock down? Such behavior is indicative of someone with a weak position.

[Thumper]

Weak position?

The entire gist of your original post was that Iraqis weren't really upset with Saddam's removal. If you weren't implying that he was their beloved leader, what WERE you implying?

[Lebe]

Time to exit this topic. I'll wrap up my part in it with a quote by Harry Truman. It seems appropriate.

Truman once stated:

"I look with commiseration upon the great body of my fellow Americans who, reading newspapers, live and die in the belief that they have known something of what has passed in the world around them."

[Thumper]

"I look with commiseration upon the great body of my fellow Americans who, reading newspapers, live and die in the belief that they have known something of what has passed in the world around them"

Funny...I ended my last personal involvement in the previous Gulf War by interviewing Iraqi EPWs on the ground north of Kuwait City.

Lots of interesting first hand stories that have bearing on our current predicament.

Where did you obtain all your remarkable insight into Yankees, Moonies, attorneys, and Iraqis?

:D :neener:

[John G]

Well, since Lebe's leaving, I found another Truman quote. But what do I know? I'm just an ignorant "yankee."

"If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen."
--Harry S. Truman

[pax]

Ahem. :scrutiny:

pax

[Thumper]

Look out, Mom's in the room...

;)

[Drjones]

Lebe said: I can't recall mentioning any type of "conspiracy".

After Lebe said:

it's a war to make a hero out of a very mediocre President
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
if a little oil money gets tossed around as a result




:rolleyes:

[Destructo6]

Lebe, you're welcome. You seemed to be in desperate need of being set straight, but it doesn't seem to have taken root.

Truman wasn't exactly a mental giant.

[Lebe]

I've returned to this thread just once more in order to respond to those who grunt out "conspiracy" any time an idea which didn't originate on a television gets discussed. What goes on in the world isn't the result of any grand "conspiracy". It's simply "business as usual". And business as usual includes a function of this society and any society which can be referred to as "definitional control".

Read and be freed.

http://internet.ggu.edu/university_library/if/definitional_control.html

From the article:

____________________________________________________

"One of the most tested and effective means of keeping order in the ranks
comes from definitional control - the ability to explain and circulate the
governors' view of reality, local or global. Its practice is dependent on
a reliable national instructional system. Schools, entertainment, the
media and the political process are enlisted. The basis of definitional
control is the informational infrastructure that produces meaning and
awareness. When the infrastructure is in place and performing routinely,
it needs no prompting from the top of the social pyramid. Americans absorb
the images and messages of the prevailing social order. These make up
their frame of reference and perception. With few exceptions, it is this
framework which insulates most from ever imagining an alternative social
reality."

[Tamara]

Truman wasn't exactly a mental giant.

"Now that little hick is president." -Florence King's mother, on hearing the news of the death of FDR. ;)

[Tamara]

Patton sacrificed many American soldiers lives after the outcome of WW2 was a "given" just so he could get to Palermo ahead of Montgomery.

To state that the outcome of WWII was a "given" in July of '43 (at least in any timely sense of the word) indicates a certain disconnect with the realities of the conflict in question. Sure, eventually B-36's would have left German cities in heaps of glowing slag in the late '40s even if Overlord had failed, but still...

Generals spend the lives of their men. That's what they do. That's the way war works. The general stands over his map, and says "You go here and do this. You go there and do that." Things get done and men die. Don't like it? Don't serve. (...and before any nattering on the draft begins; I am 100% opposed to conscription myself.)

To believe this war was started in some effort to "Wag the Dog" is simplistic in the extreme; even if the camera angles on one particular statue toppling weren't to your liking, explain all the other statues that got pulled down and paintings that got trashed. Hollywood must've been busy staging all that.

[John G]

I don't think I've ever disagreed with a post by Tamara. Is it possible that a smart, outspoken woman, who also AGREES with me, exists? Everything I know has been turned around. I feel dizzy. :D

[Lebe]

It depends, John G. What size diamond can you afford?

[Thumper]

I've felt for several years now that there are several Glocktalk, TFL and THR members that have Tamara posters on their walls.

My favorite (Thanks Oleg):

http://www.olegvolk.net/olegv/newsite/knoxville/tam-M4_s.jpg

[Lebe]

...about "The Lonely Superpower",... for those of you who care to look beyond your 27" screen for some insight into the world around you.

,.. a bit lengthy,... but an ordinary reader can digest it in less time than it takes to watch an episode of Jerry Springer,..

http://www.ub.edu.ar/facultades/feg/lonely_superpower.htm

[Tamara]

Thanks!

Not a soul on this site gets any news on the world other than what we read here or see on FOX or Jerry Springer... :rolleyes:

In return, may I direct you to www.getoffthecrossbecauseotherkidsneedthewood.com ;)

[Lebe]

lol, Tamara,.. I can only go by what I read from others on here,... and the bland, statist, television inspired responses that I've been getting in this thread have been a bit of an eye opener to someone like myself,.. a relative newbie on a forum which hails itself as being "The High Road"

I could have found such remarks on ak47.net.

:p

[John G]

It is an honor to be in the presence of my intellectual superior.

[JohnBT]

Lebe said..."People support a war like this for it's entertainment value. It's just a great big mini series to them."

This is what passes for thinking where you live? Maybe your friends and relatives are that shallow, but not the people I know. I take your statement to be intended as a personal insult. What other gun boards do you troll on?

John

[Lebe]

Not an insult,... simply an observation. If people hadn't been repeatedly spoon fed "fire and brimstone" about Iraq, they'd never give the place a second thought.

Tell me,... 3 years ago did you drift off to sleep at night worrying about Iraq,... and wondering when someone was going to step up and do something about it?

The government and the media could have just as well selected Abu Dhabi,.. or Lower Slobbovia,... or Trinidad and Tobago,.. gone to work filling the peoples head with garbage about them and the people would have hopped right up on the "Let's go to war" bandwagon. In todays social climate, the feds have no trouble steering the people in any direction that they want. All it takes is a bit of talk about security,.. a couple of "rah rah" speeches which appeal to the peoples nationalistic pride, and the government has the populace in the palm of their hand. Once you learn to recognize them, the methods are flagrantly obvious and quite predictable.

As we speak, the administration is sending out feelers about Syria,.. testing the waters,.. attempting to find if support can be generated for an invasion.

It's interesting to watch.

[MeekandMild]

3 years ago did you drift off to sleep at night worrying about Iraq,... and wondering when someone was going to step up and do something about it? I wondered and worried about Iraq since the late 70's after Carter so thoroughly screwed up our entire mideast foreign policy in search of his Nobel prize. Didn't lose any sleep about it, though.

This war could have been avoided if Clinton had agreed to arm the Kurds, just as the Yugoslavian thing could have been avoided if Clinton hadn't embargoed the good guys.

At the risk of sounding insulting, do you ever read anything else?

[Drjones]

Not an insult,... simply an observation. If people hadn't been repeatedly spoon fed "fire and brimstone" about Iraq, they'd never give the place a second thought.

Tell me,... 3 years ago did you drift off to sleep at night worrying about Iraq,... and wondering when someone was going to step up and do something about it? No. You are correct: 3 years ago the average American didn't worry about Iraq.

Just like 3 years ago we didn't worry about terrorists hijacking 4 commercial American airliners and crashing them into buildings, thus murdering 3,000 American citizens.

So because Iraq hasn't been a constant threat to America throughout history, they can't possibly be a threat to us today? :scrutiny:

Nice logic.

The government and the media could have just as well selected Abu Dhabi,.. or Lower Slobbovia,... or Trinidad and Tobago,.. gone to work filling the peoples head with garbage about them and the people would have hopped right up on the "Let's go to war" bandwagon. Please tell me where you get your hallowed information.

From what oracle of wisdom do you obtain these pearls of wisdom?

What magical, mythical, unbiased, omniscient soothsayer do you visit?

Or perhaps the lord just speaks to you directly?

:rolleyes:

[OF]

Lebe,

You have, IMO, crossed the line. You have repeatedly made insulting statements aimed at the membership here. If we, the people you are debating with, are nothing but the vacuous doe-eyed morons you insist we are, then why are you wasting your time with us?

There is only one person in this thread that shows every indicator of indocrination. And he doth protest too much.

- Gabe

[Lebe]

Golly, GRD,... ya ain't gonna tune up and cry, are ya?

[John G]

Lebe, that is uncalled for.

[Ebbtide]

lebe, thanks for the amusing banter, see you elsewhere. :)

[Lebe]

MeekandMild,... while you're passing around blame for the situation in Iraq, don't forget to include the American companies which supplied Iraq with chemical and biological weaponry during Iraq's war with Iran. As usual,.. I'll provide you with documentation from various sources which asserts this claim. In fact, even the mainstream media occasionally touched upon that fact for a minute or two when nobody was paying attention.

By the way, most of it occurred during Bush seniors watch.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2002-09-30-iraq-ushelp_x.htm

http://www.photius.com/rogue_nations/biological_us_supplied.html

http://www.shalomctr.org/html/peace147.html

http://www.indybay.org/news/2002/03/119547.php

If you want to read more about it, you can get dozens of sources simply by doing a word search. Of course,.. it's all probably just one of them dumb old conspiracy theories. I mean,.. if it wasn't, Bill O'Reilly would be having a fit about it, now wouldn't he?

[Don Gwinn]

Dude, you've got to be kidding. That's a photo from before the statue was pulled down, and you can already see people all around the plaza who may or may not be walking or running into the plaza.

To believe the claims of the article, you've got to take the evidence and twist it by assuming those people are walking away and there are no others coming. No serious person would do that without real evidence.

And again, if you think the BBC and CNN were faking events to drum up support for the war, I would suggest that your perspective on the media may be limited. We now know that CNN, by its own admission, has spent years telling lies that protected the Ba'aths and the Husseins.

[Lebe]

Can't say that I've heard any of those lies perpetrated by CNN, Don. That isn't to say that I discount the probability that CNN lies, of course. CNN, like all other mainstream media outlets, will lie whenever they feel the need to shift public opinion in the direction that they desire,.. but again, I can't recall hearing any of their lies about the Ba'ath party.

What were they?

Can you provide me with some good links which document such? I'd be very happy to see an admission of lying by CNN or any other mainstream media outlet.

[Drjones]

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/11/opinion/11JORD.html?ex=1050638400&en=ea21e8c88feae21c&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE


http://www.wnyc.org/onthemedia/transcripts_102502_jordan.html

[John G]

Here's a link to the CNN story, its by Eason Jordan, an executive at CNN: The news they didn't report (http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/11/opinion/11JORD.html?ex=1050638400&en=ea21e8c88feae21c&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE)

[Lebe]

Thanks,..

[Tamara]

That'll be quite enough mudslinging for one thread.

Lebe, have you checked your PM's since midnight?