British soldiers beat up Iraqi teens video


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Fletchette
February 26, 2006, 01:53 AM
A week or so old, but I got around to watching the video that caused such controversy. Typically, I am suspicious of police/government, but I have to admit that in this instance I am non-plussed.

The news media hyped this event up to be some sort of war crime, but I just can't get too upset at soldiers that beat up (and not all that severely) a few rioters that were throwing rocks and at least one grenade at the Brits.

The media seemed to gloss over the grenade; isn't that "lethal force"?

I have seen people get beat up much worse on "gang initiation" videos.

Did anyone else have the same reaction?

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TequilaMockingbird
February 26, 2006, 03:38 AM
Reminds me of the Israeli soldiers beating up rock-throwing Palestinian kids. I wonder how many of those kids have lost parents and siblings due to the US-UK occupation? I wonder if we will be stupid enough to try to impose an occupation without end on Iraq. We're building at least 14 permanent bases (http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/news/2004/040323-enduring-bases.htm) in Iraq, so it appears that we.

The other partners (http://www.aljazeera.com/me.asp?service_ID=10524) in the "coalition of the willing" either have left or are planning to pull out. Soon we will be all alone there. We've suffered 25,000 casualties to date, and even William F. Buckley, Jr., (http://www.nationalreview.com/buckley/buckley.asp) recognizes that the mission in Iraq is a failure. Will we suffer another 25,000 before we finally leave?
---
I support the torturers. (http://www.cafepress.com/thewhitehouse.16144938):barf:

Jeff White
February 26, 2006, 05:25 AM
I never cease to be amazed that people are shocked and surprized to discover that war is really violent.....

Jeff

hwp
February 26, 2006, 10:00 AM
Good thing the news media did not hang around my high school years ago or they would have been overwhelmed by the violence.

I doubt it though, it was mostly white on white violence and that is not news worthy.

orangeninja
February 26, 2006, 04:26 PM
Imagine that....of all things....casualties and violence in a war. We should call someone.:rolleyes:

c_yeager
February 26, 2006, 07:14 PM
I never cease to be amazed that people are shocked and surprized to discover that war is really violent.....

Jeff

I could have sworn that we officially announced that the war was over and that we were now "rebuilding". I dont think its unreasonable to be suprised that "rebuilding" involves violence.

Ryder
February 26, 2006, 09:31 PM
oops

Ryder
February 26, 2006, 09:32 PM
Somebody must have thought it looked bad considering those old Abu Grave (sp?) prison photos resurfaced the next day to deflect any potential Muslim anger toward us instead.

Robert Hairless
February 26, 2006, 09:52 PM
I've watched the video. It has been widely misinterpreted with the usual result of gross overreaction by people who don't understand sportsmanship.

The Iraqi teenagers were merely engaged in the ancient sport of Rock Hurling, an activity that allows them to sharpen their eyesight, develop hand/eye coordination, and maintain muscular tone. The soldiers were simply playing according to the rules of the sport. It was their turn at bat.

This game was played in 2004 according to the narrator on the clip I watched.

Merkin.Muffley
February 26, 2006, 10:03 PM
I wouldn't get worried until they start cutting off their heads.

english kanigit
February 27, 2006, 12:05 AM
I've watched the video. It has been widely misinterpreted with the usual result of gross overreaction by people who don't understand sportsmanship.

The Iraqi teenagers were merely engaged in the ancient sport of Rock Hurling, an activity that allows them to sharpen their eyesight, develop hand/eye coordination, and maintain muscular tone. The soldiers were simply playing according to the rules of the sport. It was their turn at bat.

This game was played in 2004 according to the narrator on the clip I watched.

Nice one!

So what qualifies as a 'foul'? :D

Medusa
February 27, 2006, 04:09 AM
You mean that video where the soldiers are covered up, never show their faces to camera, beat with sticks, on background there's unidentified "ooh-ooh"? Looks similar to these photos about the brits&trucks that were proved to be fake later. This is war, this is most probably a cheap propaganda trick to lay some crap on brits. I have a hard time believing anything that comes from that area.

agricola
February 27, 2006, 10:30 AM
fair play to the BBC, while they did show with disapproval the beating they did also show what came before that - ie: groups of youths throwing bricks and petrol bombs at the squaddies before they charged them, causing the youths to run off. the ones that got caught ran into an enclosed yard where (from the camera position) it looked like the squaddie FIT team was holed up with the resulting handing out of reminders.

sadly they did not link the beatings to the other events in the middle east recently - egyptian riot police beating and using APCs to deal with the families of the dead in that ferry disaster, iranian police beating students and executing rape victims, saudi police routinely torturing suspects etc. in the context of the area, hell in the context of british soldiering that was a spectacularly minor affair.

the same goes for the cartoons "row". twelve guys and a paper draw some cartoons and you have people marching down whitehall and most other capital cities of europe demanding anything from heavy censorship of cartoonists to death to everyone who doesnt dress their kid in an "i (heart) al-Qaeda" bonnet; meanwhile someone blows up some co-religionists most holy places and noone marches anywhere outside of iraq. i think some people desperately need to get some perspective.

Pafrmu
February 27, 2006, 10:37 AM
Anyone have a link for the video?

Creeping Incrementalism
February 27, 2006, 12:35 PM
Reminds me of the Israeli soldiers beating up rock-throwing Palestinian kids. I wonder how many of those kids have lost parents and siblings due to the US-UK occupation? I wonder if we will be stupid enough to try to impose an occupation without end on Iraq. We're building at least 14 permanent bases in Iraq, so it appears that we.

The other partners in the "coalition of the willing" either have left or are planning to pull out. Soon we will be all alone there. We've suffered 25,000 casualties to date, and even William F. Buckley, Jr., recognizes that the mission in Iraq is a failure. Will we suffer another 25,000 before we finally leave?

What I wonder is when will we end our endless occupation of Germany. 61 years, and we are still defending that ungrateful Eurotrash? Ditto Korea.

40,000 American every year die in car accidents, and nobody bats an eye. I'm not cavalierly dismissing the sacrifice of the volunteers who go to fight in Iraq, but just making the point that, for America whole, the casualties in Iraq are not particularly significant. So if you think the casualties in Iraq are terrible, you should spend 40 times as much effort working to end traffic accidents, since they cause 40 times as many casualties.

The monetary cost is insignificant compared to what the government spend on welfare.

The only rational reason as to why we should pull out of Iraq is because it causes problems with our foreign policy, and to watch the fun on TV as the country tears itself apart after we leave. But if you added the cost in human lives to traffic accidents, and the cost in money to welfare, no one would even notice.

TequilaMockingbird
February 27, 2006, 09:30 PM
but just making the point that, for America whole, the casualties in Iraq are not particularly significant.

Especially when it's somebody else's kin, eh? Nothing quite like Generation (http://www.thenation.com/doc/20050711/blumenthal) Chickenhawk (http://toostupidtobepresident.com/shockwave/chickenhawks.htm).

(I guess we could mention the Iraqi casualties (http://www.iraqbodycount.org/), wog (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wog) life is of no importance, so why bother.)

What I wonder is when will we end our endless occupation of Germany. 61 years, and we are still defending that ungrateful Eurotrash? Ditto Korea.

At least we aren't still at war with Germany. Our war in Iraq has only just begun.

The duration of our war in Afganistan has already exceeded our involvement in WWI - with no end in sight.
/shrug

And the winner is........the drug traffickers (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4695030)!

War is the health of the state, so let a thousand poppies bloom.

to watch the fun on TV as the country tears itself apart after we leave.

"War is fun," said the member of the 101st Keyboard Commandos on his Lazy Boy in his secure location, watching it all unfold on TV. War Is a Force That Gives Us Meaning (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0006I7EXW/sr=8-1/qid=1141093629/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-7646449-4689507?%5Fencoding=UTF8).

Spiphel Rike
February 27, 2006, 10:50 PM
Did any of you guys notice one of the soldiers giving one of the iraqis a headbutt during the fighting? The video they showed on the Aussie news featured that, I laughed pretty loud at that. At least our media mentioned that the fighting was done at a riot, and showed some of the fighting rather than just the troops smashin the teenagers.

orangeninja
February 27, 2006, 11:19 PM
That clinches it, they must be Brits. The headbutt is a time tested, battle proven favored technique of many a European from the Isles....just pretend the enemy is a soccer ball and WHALLOP!!!

shootinstudent
February 28, 2006, 01:40 AM
The headbutt is a time tested, battle proven favored technique of many a European from the Isles....just pretend the enemy is a soccer ball and WHALLOP!!!

Yeah, ha ha ha, and the funniest headbutts of all are the ones that can kill Iraqi kids, there's a real laugh!

Seriously the tape is bad. I don't think it's fair to blame everyone involved in the war for what goes on in one tape, but these guys who were kicking unconscious youths (half their size it looks from the tape) and headbutting them deserve to be punished.

We're supposed to be the good guys, that's why (theoretically) the Iraqis are supposed to allow us to liberate them. If we're not going to expect that soldiers follow the rules, we might as well just empty the prisons and give them uniforms to fight in Iraq.

GunnySkox
February 28, 2006, 01:46 AM
Nice one!

So what qualifies as a 'foul'?

Bayonets or bullets. The foulee, if capable, gets two "free throws" with "penalty balls" of the fragmentation variety.

~GnSx

orangeninja
February 28, 2006, 01:33 PM
Uh...i haven't seen the video....but those guys chucking rocks? They're the same ones setting up IEDs and running road blocks with car bombs....whatcha' wanna bet?

I've got no qualms with dead terrorist A**holes of any age.

Again, I haven't seen the video...anyone got a link?

TequilaMockingbird
February 28, 2006, 04:26 PM
I've got no qualms with dead terrorist A**holes of any age.

Terrorist: local armed irregular opposing occupation of his country by invaders.

Terror: what they do to us.

Counter-terror: what we do to them.

Sneak-attack: when they do it.

Pre-emptive retaliatory strike: when we do it.

Torture: what they do.

Freedom tickles: when we do it.

Creeping Incrementalism
February 28, 2006, 04:44 PM
Tequila, you obviously missed the entire point of my post. I even wrote "I'm not cavalierly dismissing their sacrifice", and still you pulled the predictable "pretty easy when they are someone else's kin". The point I was making is--are you (and others) crusading for traffic safety as much as you want us out of Iraq? Tell me how Iraq is costing us more in material and human terms if 40 times more people die every year in traffic accidents. Answer the question, don't dodge with your predictable line .

We were at the brink of global annihlation for 40 years in Germany. It was a war, a cold war, one in which could have ended with the end of the world as we know it.

Regarding your latest post, you apprently can't tell the difference between good and evil. It is not bad to do bad things to bad people. It's called justice. If you put someone in jail because they are a criminal, it isn't the same as a thug who kidnaps someone and holds them illegally.

orangeninja
February 28, 2006, 05:41 PM
TequilaMockingbird

Oh stop it, you're making my heart bleed.:rolleyes:


Creeping...what you are dealing with here is a moral relativist....all morality is relative to one's point of view and whatnot.

rmgill
February 28, 2006, 05:43 PM
IF someone was throwing petrol bombs at you because they couldn't get a job with the custom's service, would you be kicking a bit of ass perhaps?
:scrutiny:

From what I heard from various Brit soldiers over in the UK, they felt the retaliation of some kicking and beating was fair play in exchange for petrol bombs. It's far lighter than they'd have gotten from ANYONE else in the region.

TequilaMockingbird
February 28, 2006, 09:07 PM
From what I heard from various Brit soldiers over in the UK, they felt the retaliation of some kicking and beating was fair play in exchange for petrol bombs. It's far lighter than they'd have gotten from ANYONE else in the region.

When you are in another country to impose your will on the locals, you cannot allow them to throw rocks and Molotov cocktails at you. Were I the theater commander, I'd give order RoE to allow them to light up anyone who throws anything at them heavier than a nerfball.

Of course, if I were really in charge, we wouldn't be there in the first place, and if we had to go in, I'd've asked for a Declaration of War (remember those? sounds kinda quaint, I suppose...), and then I would have gone in with three times as many soldiers. I would have had an actual plan to reconstruct the country and provide security.

I would not have disbanded the army. Brilliant move, that.

Team Bush is so unimaginably incompetent it boggles the mind. They will go down in history as one of the worst administrations this country has ever seen.

The point I was making is--are you (and others) crusading for traffic safety as much as you want us out of Iraq?

"But but but...where were you when _____________ was taking place? Huh? I didn't hear you raise a stink about it."

Tell me how Iraq is costing us more in material and human terms

The War in Iraq Costs (http://nationalpriorities.org/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=182)

The loss in respect. The loss in esteem. On 9-11, the world was with us. Now after five yrs of Bush, we are pretty much hated, feared, despised...

Other countries have an incentive to get nukes to deter us.

Yeah, there are a lot of costs, but you know what? This is a gun board, so I'm not gonna argue it, OK?

--------------
I support the torturers. (http://www.cafepress.com/thewhitehouse.16144938)

Fletchette
March 1, 2006, 12:28 AM
Of course, if I were really in charge, we wouldn't be there in the first place, and if we had to go in, I'd've asked for a Declaration of War (remember those? sounds kinda quaint, I suppose...), and then I would have gone in with three times as many soldiers. I would have had an actual plan to reconstruct the country and provide security.

I would not have disbanded the army. Brilliant move, that.

Team Bush is so unimaginably incompetent it boggles the mind. They will go down in history as one of the worst administrations this country has ever seen.

Maybe, maybe not. But Bush and co. is off topic. I was simply stating that the Brits seemed to be taking a lot of criticism for slapping around a few young adult Iraqis that had just thrown grenades at them. Frankly, I could see myself doing the exact same thing (and sleeping well at night).

shootinstudent
March 1, 2006, 02:49 AM
Frankly, I could see myself doing the exact same thing (and sleeping well at night).

Have you ever actually seen someone "slapped around" like these troops were beating those Iraqis? Moves like that can easily kill or maim for life. Kicking people who are unconscious on the floor, and headbutting another are deadly force.

I think it's wrong to dwell on these incidents, since all they do in the long run is make life worse for all parties involved, but I can't imagine why people would defend this behavior. What good can come of it?

Spiphel Rike
March 1, 2006, 05:56 AM
A headbutt is deadly force???
Is that important? Aren't rocks, grenades and petrol bombs the same? or worse even?

Fletchette
March 6, 2006, 11:33 PM
Have you ever actually seen someone "slapped around" like these troops were beating those Iraqis? Moves like that can easily kill or maim for life. Kicking people who are unconscious on the floor, and headbutting another are deadly force.

I think it's wrong to dwell on these incidents, since all they do in the long run is make life worse for all parties involved, but I can't imagine why people would defend this behavior. What good can come of it?

Perhaps I did not see the same video you did. I did not see anyone beat unconcious. In fact, I did not see anyone actually bleeding. I do not see this as life-threatening.

In any case, I am not defending the act of beating captured prisoners (troops shouldn't do it), I am simply saying that punching someone who has just thrown rocks, petrol bombs and grenades is not what I consider to be a 'war crime'.

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