[Sharpdogs]

There have been a few break-ins on the street where my in-laws live. The most recent was this week and was their next door neighbor's house. I love my in-laws but they hate guns (at least they are good cooks), so a firearm is out of the question. I thought the next best thing would be a dog but their schedules are too crazy and would be unfair to the dog. I recommended reinforcing the locks around the house and putting in more powerful motion lights in the front and back. In addition I was thinking of getting them some large canisters of pepper spray and a high powered flashlight like an Inova T3 or Surefire. They have one or two clubs/bats but swinging one is easier said than done inside a house. Any other recommendations? One additional note, the burgulars were successful in breaking into the neighbors house largely because their entry and exit were hidden by a six foot wooden fence that went around the backyard. My in-laws were considering a similar fence to surround their yard, but after recent events they are leaning towards a chain link.

[22-rimfire]

I would say that they should install a security system and as you say have pepper spray, flash lights etc inside the house. I suspect that things like base ball bats etc would be found to be as objectionable as guns.

Let's think of this in terms of the school bully vs the passive child. At first passive child gets beat up and says nothing. Then marks are left and passive child tells parents. Parents call school to complain. School can't protect child. Parents contact bully child's parents and complain. Eventually if the bullying continues the child either accepts that they are a victim or they fight back with the weapons that are available inside a school... usually fightling skills and hands and fists.

You will notice that the first response is usually to take the beating. Then another passive effort is trying to get the school to stop it. Then trying to get the parents to stop the problem.... all passive actions involving other people "doing their job". Eventually the chilld may decide to fight back regardless of whether or not they will be injured in the action.

Home protection takes much the same course.... locked doors, passive defense, police protection etc. At some point the victim decides that the police can't and won't protect them and other non-passive options are explored. This is one of the dominant topics of this board. Self Defense!

If you want to be a victim, then accept the fact that the police can not protect you and whatever happens later. If you don't, take more aggessive action and that eventually involves a gun of some sort inside the home. It does not have to be a handgun. Best choice is usually a shotgun which I believe is legal even in NYC as they take little practice to allow the gun owner to present a reasonable defense inside the home.

[wheelgunslinger]

+1 to the previous post.

Crossbow? Baseball bat? mmmmm... Katana?

:confused:

[JShirley]

22,

I agree with most of your post, except for this:Best choice is usually a shotgun


This is common knowledge, but I believe it to be incorrect. The heavy recoil of a shotgun is not the best thing for a new shooter, and a carbine in an intermediate rifle caliber or heavy handgun caliber would be a better choice.

John

[Rock and Glock]

Many urban police departments will conduct "security surveys" for individual homeowners. I'd call the local PD and see if they have a similar program. Home security firms will do the same, generally for free, if the homeowner is potentially a customer.

Additionally, at a minimum:

Install deadbolts on all doors - a full 1.5" or so throw - high quality ones,
Reinforce deadbolt jamb plates with 5'' or 6" case hardened screws,
Add additional locks to all groundfloor windows,
Add large outdoor lights - remote, motion-detector, or timed,
Clear landscaping from windows and doors,
When not at home, leave TV on and have some lights on timers,
CS good - train them how to use it,
Garage door always closed,
Monitored alarm system, and, most importantly,
Train them to be level orange when leaving or arriving home!

Making a home less attractive (e.g. "harden it") is the first key to safety - criminals avoid harder targets! They hunt for easy targets and soft targets - hence, the old, infirm, the young, the open doors or windows, the high fence or large bush to shield their activities, open garage doors, darkness, etc.

Good luck!

:cool:

[Kaylee]

I dunno... I think this is another instance of "the gun is just a tool."

If they're truly willing to use force to defend themselves or their home, I'm *still* going to recommend a firearm, even if only a break-action external hammer shotgun. To intentionally recommend a weapon less effective because they're squemish over 'em is to endanger their lives.

On the other hand, if they aren't willing to use a gun, I don't trust 'em to be willing to use a knife, a sword, a taser, pepper spray, or a fricken' phaser if the stuff goes down. Again... I think it will give them false confidence, and further endanger their lives.

Dogs, alarms, and so forth? Sure! Recomend 'em all you like. But a weapon? Or anything that requires confrontation? Unless they're willing to get over their squeamishness, I don't think I'd recommend a thing.

[LegendaryItaliano]

I would say that this scenario depends one of two things. Are your in-laws looking to catch and detain any intruder or are they passive with only personal safety in mind?

If they wish to act offensively then I would say rethinking the rifle idea is needed. A shot gun with home protection rounds is ideal because aim is not as important and the sound is far more intimidating. The rounds are specifically designed not to penetrate through walls into an unsuspecting neighbors house, and depending on range, more than one intruder can be injured at a time.

However, if they are defensive people and simply want to avoid danger I would recommend they create a safe room. Perhaps a nearby closet reinforced with a heavier door and dead bolt. In side this room should be an alarm panel for them to activate a panic trigger.

If they decide to go with the safe room they should also practice by running drills every so often to make sure they can access it quietly without alerting the intruders. The element of surprise combined with adreniline and fear can turn people around to panic real quick, so the more comfortable you are with the motions, the safer you are going to be.

Just my .02

[hso]

Why are you thinking they need a weapon? All that you've described as the broblem is property crime and not home invasion or violent crime. If this is the case then they need to improve their anti-theft protection. This would consist of monitored alarm systems, perimiter barriers like chainlink fences and locks, break-in resistant exterior locks and lights.

OTOH, if the problems in the neighborhood have been violence related then a safe room and alarm system is the key. People that aren't willing to defend themselves are better off fleeing to a point of safety than dithering over which end to point at the bad guy.

[XLMiguel]

Cold Steel has a couple of short spears that look pretty formidible if coupled with the will to slash and/or impale interlopers:D

[ReadyontheRight]

-A "Beware of Dog" sign by each gate, door, etc. - $5.
-Porch lights on all night, every night in front and back of house and one on main floor inside the house - About $30/year if electric rates are around $.06/kWh.
-Kid-sized Louisville Slugger - $20.

-An acceptance that guns are better than hope when confronting goblins - Priceless.

I like the idea of a Surefire for each of them as well.

[mp510]

I am not sure if this is legal where they live, but would a TASER or stun-gun be an option?

See if you can't get them into a firearm of somesort.

[Sharpdogs]

Thanks for all the advice. Tasers, stun guns, etc. are out of the question since this is NJ. My best bet is to get them to reinforce the locks, install an alarm and get them to improve their situational awareness. As of now the crime appears to limited to property crime. I would like them to have something in case things do escalate. I will get them some large canisters of pepper spray and one or two practice canisters. A high power flashlight will help them see past their backyard and into the patch of woods where the last burgulars dropped some of the loot. Firearms are still out of the subject, despite the fact that my mother in-law grew up with guns (her dad was a cop). Even if I could get them to keep one in the house, they would never practice with it. Last but not least I will continue to make regular visits with my dogs, a pit and a german shepherd.

[hso]

If you're looking into the woods then just install some halogen floods on that side to light the whole freak'n forrest. Much more powerful than hand helds, operable from inside the house, obscures the entire side of house instead of the wielder.

You've got some good ideas that they can have someone install for them, but none of the tactikewl toys we love so well are going to help these folks and giving them to them is like opera tickets for the tone deaf NASCAR fan.

[JShirley]

A shot gun with home protection rounds is ideal because aim is not as important and the sound is far more intimidating. The rounds are specifically designed not to penetrate through walls into an unsuspecting neighbors house, and depending on range, more than one intruder can be injured at a time.


NO. Practically everything you've said here is not correct. At the distances we're talking about, aim is just as important.

Intimidation? Who uses intimidation? Only fools and the inexperienced.

It is much more difficult to control where all your shotgun pellets end up, than it is to control where a rifle round stops. "More than one intruder"? If you're at distance, a rifle is better. If you're at close range, a rifle is better, and generally (in intermediate calibers) much quicker onto the next target.

A rifle is better.

A rifle is better.

A rifle is better.

John

[hso]

"A shot gun with home protection rounds is ideal because aim is not as important ... The rounds are specifically designed not to penetrate through walls"

This is the firearms equivalent of an urban myth. Shotguns at residential ranges still have to be aimed like a rifle because shot patterns only open about 1 inch per yard of range to target. At typical house ranges of 30 feet that only gives a pattern 10 inches or less across and within that 10 inch pattern the majority of shot is near the center. The second myth is that shotgun "rounds are specifically designed not to penetrate through walls".

If you take a look at boxoftruth.com (http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot20.htm) (http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm) you'll see that there's 6 sheetrock layers wrecked by the shotgun rounds. That's through the living room wall then through the adjacent den then out into the world. This matches the tests I did without the pretty setup shown here. http://www.theboxotruth.com/images/3-4.jpg You'll also see patterns far less than 10 inches for 00 shot at room distances. I used to be one of the people repeating this myth until I had some sheetrock laying around and tested shot and 55gr AR and 7.62X39 and various pistol rounds.

[Boats]

Compared to even a handgun, I would consider that picture above to be acceptable "overpenetration." What the box of truth lacks is exterior siding, which, even if vinyl, would contain all but the closest fired buckshot after passing through some drywall.

[JShirley]

I think overpen concern is usually overstated, but lightweight rifle rounds at high velocity don't tend to overpenetrate, anyway...

[middy]

All they need is a big planter full of sand to stick their heads into in the event of an actual robbery or hot burglary. :rolleyes:

[hso]

"Compared to even a handgun, I would consider that picture above to be acceptable "overpenetration." What the box of truth lacks is exterior siding, which, even if vinyl, would contain all but the closest fired buckshot after passing through some drywall."

Boats,

Please point me to the site you got this information from because when I threw vinyl siding under 4 layers of drywall it went through. It went through the 2 layers and vinyl also. I don't know how much damage it would have done because 00 has poor sectional density, but since at single room ranges the shot made a ragged hole in 2 layers of drywall and the siding you could reasonably assume some of the .30 cal pellets could have a lot of energy because some of their "little friends" may have cleared the path for them. Seemed to be the case when they blasted through the first 4 layers of drywall and still made it through 2 more.

The BOT site has these conclusions -

"Lessons learned:
1. Notice that the #4 and #1 Buck penetrated 6 boards. In previous tests, 9mm, .45 ACP, and M-193 out of an AR all penetrated all 12 boards.

So, it seems that these loads do not "over-penetrate" as much as some have led us to believe.

The 00 Buck penetrated 8 boards, but was stopped by the 9th. Still not as much penetration as the pistol or rifle loads.

The slug penetrated all 12 boards.

2. Once again, please notice the size of the entrance spreads....2 1/2" to 3 1/2". Therefore, anyone that says, "With a shotgun, you don't even have to aim. Just point it in the general area of the bad guy, and you can't miss", does not know what they are talking about.

You can very easily miss with a shotgun. You must aim to hit your target.

3. The slugs were "bad" penetrators. By that, I mean that they will penetrate several interior walls. If you have loved ones in your home, consider this as you select your home defense weapon.

4. I "racked" the shotgun several times during the tests, and no bystanders lost control of their bowels.
Conclusion: Racking a shotgun will not make the bad guy faint.

Frankly, I was surprised that the shotgun did not penetrate more than it did. I had been led to believe that they penetrated more than a .223 rifle or a 9mm or .45 ACP. Such was not the case.

Amazing what you can learn by doing a little testing."


Shotgun 'common knowledge' is very common, but may not be based on knowledge.

[mp510]

Sharpdogs wrote
Thanks for all the advice. Tasers, stun guns, etc. are out of the question since this is NJ. My best bet is to get them to reinforce the locks, install an alarm and get them to improve their situational awareness. As of now the crime appears to limited to property crime. I would like them to have something in case things do escalate. I will get them some large canisters of pepper spray and one or two practice canisters. A high power flashlight will help them see past their backyard and into the patch of woods where the last burgulars dropped some of the loot. Firearms are still out of the subject, despite the fact that my mother in-law grew up with guns (her dad was a cop). Even if I could get them to keep one in the house, they would never practice with it. Last but not least I will continue to make regular visits with my dogs, a pit and a german shepherd.

Good idea! Sorry, didn't know they were in NJ. Get them a fullsize Maglite (either 6D or rechargable) , like the ones the cops carry. That way, if spraying and shining the perp doesent stop them, they always have a very decent blunt trauma weapon (use like a nightstick).

[ghost squire]

This is common knowledge, but I believe it to be incorrect. The heavy recoil of a shotgun is not the best thing for a new shooter, and a carbine in an intermediate rifle caliber or heavy handgun caliber would be a better choice.


Possibly, but the percieved recoil of a levergun in 30-30 is more then that of a pump shotgun. I think the best choice would be autoshotgun or AK. Handgun calibers are just too weak, unless were talking Garret loads which can only be used in some leverguns anyway and have pretty stiff recoil supposedly.

[JShirley]

intermediate

= rounds more powerful than handgun, weaker than "battle" cartridges. Includes 5.45x39mm, 5.56x45mm, and 7.62x39mm, to name a few. Some place the .30 Carbine round in this group as well. The .30-30 is a little outside this range, though I believe it might be a decent choice if the right bullet was chosen (NOT a heavy soft point). Regardless, it doesn't matter, since it's not one of the rounds I suggested.

J

[ghost squire]

Light bullets, ok... The 30-30 pushes a 125 grain bullet approx. 100 fps faster then a 7.62x39 using the max loads of both. Source is reloaders nest. Thats less velocity change then going up to +P in handguns.

I've never fired a .44 out of a levergun but its probably going to have about the same recoil as 125 grain loads out of a 30-30. Probably a little less.

I wouldn't recommend either to a non gun person. A much better choice would be an AK variant in 7.62 using softpoints but if thats not available maybe auto shotgun with reduced recoil loads.

[JShirley]

I fired a Ruger .44 carbine years ago- I think I was 14. I barely felt the recoil.

The Reload Bench (http://www.reloadbench.com/cartridges/762r.html)says Some say the 7.62 x 39mm is equal in power to the .30-30 Winchester but this is not quite true. Although heavier bullets can be loaded in this cartridge, velocity is quite low since it was designed to push bullets from 120 to 125 grains to just over 2300 fps. In other words, no 7.62 x 39mm load can equal the .30-30 when its loaded with a 170 grain bullet.

In other words, those who claim similar power levels are being disingenuous.

If an auto shotgun is found that can reliably shoot reduced recoil slugs, I would agree this would be a fine choice for HD.

I personally think a "non gun person" will find it easier to just thumb the (lever gun's) hammer off half-cock and open fire than use the Klatch's cumbersome safety. Yes, once firing commences, the AK will have advantages.

John

[Boats]

My previous post is my opinion only. I have never seen a BOT with siding, studs, or insulation wrap affixed to it, so at best, these plain drywall tests are approximations.

I have cedar siding, so perhaps I am overly optimistic about the prospects of vinyl, but anything which penetrates half the amount of drywall that common defense pistol rounds do, is an acceptable overpenetration risk to me.

I never said no one had to aim a shotgun so I will not be defending that bit of wrong conventional wisdom. I pattern and practice with mine regularly.

Mossberg 590A1 w/00Buck in 3" shells is my primary load. I am a southpaw so the 590's tang safety is what keeps me out of the 870 camp.:D

[JShirley]

I never said no one had to aim a shotgun so I will not be defending that bit of wrong conventional wisdom.

Hooah. I'm a righty, but I still prefer the Mossy's safety, too.

John

[rudolf]

A machete is about as bad as it gets.

[ghost squire]

The Reload Bench says Some say the 7.62 x 39mm is equal in power to the .30-30 Winchester but this is not quite true. Although heavier bullets can be loaded in this cartridge, velocity is quite low since it was designed to push bullets from 120 to 125 grains to just over 2300 fps. In other words, no 7.62 x 39mm load can equal the .30-30 when its loaded with a 170 grain bullet.

In other words, those who claim similar power levels are being disingenuous.

Amazing, you take something that directly contradicts what you said and attempt to turn it in your favor.

You said it would not be wise to use heavy bullets. I never claimed the 7.62x39 was more powerful with heavier bullets, but as I said they are about equal with standard 125 grain loads.

I'll watch and laugh as you change your stance to include 170 grain bullets as not heavy for the .30-30. 125s are on the lighter end for both cartridges, and they are about equal in that respect.

[KriegHund]

For the third time on this forum...

Cant beat a short spear and shortsword.

[hso]

If, and that's a big if, after they put all the anti break-in modifications in place they have any interest in defending themselves a short spear could be of great value. Readily available, simple to learn the basics, not restricted by space.

[Sharpdogs]

I will try and get them to put in all the "anti-theft" modifications, but HSO is right, it's still a big if. I did purchase them some pepper foam. Apparently pepper foam is supposed to be better to use than pepper spray indoors. A short spear, machete and dog poo on a stick are only viable options for people who do not have access to a firearm and are willing to defend themselves. I hope the motion lights, deadbolts, etc. will lead criminals to look for easier targets. The pepper foam and flashlights are just to buy them enought time to grab their cell, call 911 and/or get out of the house.

[colt.45]

ok heres what you do:

1.buy a beware of dog sign

2.get some sise 14 boots and dirty em up good and put em on your porch

3.put a sticky note that says, not home right now, went to go get more ammo, if this is bubba try not to wake the pitbulls theyve ben fighting

4. leave the t.v. on with pro wrestling on real loud amd perhaps play a little metalica

other than that, if they dont like guns then tell them to get over it and buy them a cheap pistol or shottie and teach em how to use it

[Boom-stick]

I still can't believe you still have anti-gun people in the US.
When I was over there in '97, I worked as a riflery instructor at a summer camp, teaching kids to shoot.

It was like trying to teach fish to swim:confused:

[goon]

Boom-stick - We have idiots everywhere.

[JShirley]

My point being- using the source you quoted- that the .30-30 is not considered an intermediate cartridge, despite its lessened power when using lighter weight bullets.

[mrmeval]

Don't forget to set out plants that cause pain. :)

This one sounds quite evil but it's Austrailian

http://www.futureofcairns.net/CS/photos/plants/picture88.aspx