[Tim Currie]

Ok, not that I can get one yet (probably over the summer) but just starting to think on it...

Here's the deal:

I do not care about hunting, nor serious target shooting.

I want to pick one rifle that will be used for general plinking and fun shooting but its real purpose is a "in case ****...." rifle. So it needs to be an all around SHTF scenario rifle. I've been thinking of 3 different types (but by all means, suggest something different if you wish):

1) Some type of Ak. Always have wanted an Ak-47 with a nice new black synthetic stock.

2) AR-15 (although I'm not sure I want to spend this much...)

3) Some type of FAL. However I currently do not know much about these rifles, I have heard mention of them being great "battle rifles" because of their caliber.


Please give me some pros and cons and tell me what you think.

I already have an SKS which will always be with me in CA. Which ever gun I choose will be legally purchased and stored at my Mom's place in NV, so anything is possible.

Thats all.:)

[cool45auto]

Why not another SKS? They're made for what you're suggesting.

[HIPOWER]

Look at a Ruger Mini-14. Inexpensive, rugged and reliable with quality magazines. 223 ammo is cheap so you can stock up. Good survival rifle because you can use it for self defense and will also take deer or medium game in a pinch (if you place your shot well). Not the most accurate rifle, but accurate enough for a SHTF rifle.

[dude]

SKS (plain & un-pimped)

[Andrew Wyatt]

m-14. it makes a fair crack at a general purpose (hunting and target shooting too!) rifle anyway.

[dog3]

True *one rifle* for SHTF?

If I could find a Nylon 66 in good shape, that
would be a good bet. So, I guess the 10/22 will
have to do.

Can carry a thousand rounds in a cargo
pocket. Thousand rounds is a lotta meals.

[TheLastBoyScout]

Right now, I would feel most comfortable with 3, but I could take it down to 2 and be happy. I have an AR15 and a 10/22, and would be fine for most SHTF with the above. If it came down to hunting large game, I'd have to rely on my brother and his M1(30-06). If I was arming up just for SHTF, I'd get a 7.62 NATO MBR (Ideally a DSA FAL) and a 10/22. The MBR has you covered against large game and two legged predators out to 400 or so yards, if not more (I'm not up on the FAL's max effective range), uses the cheapest mags available, and 7.62 NATO does alot more for not much more money than 5.56 NATO (meaning milsurp, I know wolf is a lot cheaper).

If you don't have a need for long range shots, go for the AK. It costs about a third of the FAL, ammo is cheaper (and doesn't need to be milspec, wolf works fine), mags are almost as cheap, its incredibly reliable, and unlike 5.56, I'd expect 7.62x39 to do the job on a deer at short range (100-200 yards).

[Lebe]

Weaponry is just one consideration that you'll have if the S truly does HTF. What do you plan to do in the event that it does?

I can't really envision any type of invasion or nationwide uprising in the USA becoming a reality in the near future. What I *do* think is a possibility is some type of biological attack which puts anyone who is in a densely populated area at risk. If this ever happens, the biggest, baddest rifle in the world is going to just be something that gets heavy.

I have a very secluded location in the Cumberland mountains earmarked for such an occasion and a light 20 guage double barreled shotgun to use on small game. I've been hog hunting in that area several times and you stop encountering humans about 1.5 miles off the beaten path. Plenty of game, water, and natural shelter there. The way I see it,.. if trouble comes your way, just side step it.

[9mmepiphany]

for my environment, mostly urban and some suburban, my choice was the sar-2 (romanian clone of the ak-74). as accurate as i need, at the ranges i'll encounter and the ability to keep working when i don't have time to take care of it (it'll be lucky to see a bore-snake)

if you want to keep ammo supply simple a sar-1 (ak-47 clone) would share ammo with your sks

if mom lives out in rural parts of NV, the fal in 7.62x51mm is a perfect fit for the wide open spaces. lots of kits and gunsmiths out their to put together whatever you want. mags are unbelievably cheap (stock up) and there is still plenty of surplus still out there.

[Soap]

M1A and keep it at your house.

[BusMaster007]

AR15.

The best thing about this platform is the ability to change uppers and switch calibers/cartridges/bbl. length/optics/etc. to whatever strikes you.

You say you don't care about hunting/target shooting.
Well...

Maybe later, you might.
The AR15 can be switched to an upper in a hunting caliber.
Or, changed to shoot targets in a very accurate manner.
Or, let's say you want a .50BMG some day...:D

The AR15 can do all that. Or, not. :)

[goon]

I will also support the SKS.
I can also vouc for a good AK.
The SAR's are OK for toys, but if you want a real weapon, spend a little extra on a better example. Or look around for a Maadi. They are closer to a real AK than an SAR, and in the same price range.
AK's are about as reliable as a firearm can be, and simple to operate. They share ammo with the SKS that you already have, and their operation is similar, but not entirely the same.
The 7.62x39mm is powerful enough for animals up to deer, but too much for small game.
The ammo and mags are also cheap, so that takes care of that. They are good for general plinking, but not as accurate as the M-16's that I shot. But, shooting offhand at 100 or so yards, I am not as accurate as those M-16's were either. From the bench, my SA-M7 does about 3 inches at 100yds. Good enough.
But my real riflesfor serious work are my Savage Scout, or one of my Mosin Nagants. I like bolt guns more, and they fire more powerful rounds. Careful aim is required with them, so there will be little ammunition wasted. Range and accuracy are better than the AK has.
And, nobody thinks anything of me having a deer rifle, or one ot those old "obsolete" military rifles..;)

[Sactown]

Since you're up in Chico in Kali, might as well get something you can use in Kali as well. You can get plenty of range time to familiarize yourself with the rifle. My M1A has been utterly reliable and super accurate for me. If you're not looking to spend that much, give the Mini-14 a look. I'm only giving suggestions for having the rifle in California. If the SHTF, I'd rather have the rifle in hand than in storage in NV.

[Tim Currie]

Well ok lets see...

I don't want another SKS...already got that. And want something different. As for getting something I can have at home...well I already have that, my SKS. The whole idea was kinda to get something cool that I cant have in CA :mad: ...stupid CA....anyway.

And I would like to (well really have to....) buy something on the cheaper side. Down the road when I have more cash I can spend on guns I will buy others, thats why I ask which ONE should I get. Cause I have to pick just one for now.

So I guess I want something fun to have at my Mom's that I can play with when there and a good battle type rifle to have stashed there that is a goodie that I am not allowed here in CA.

Don't the FAL's come in .308? I thought that was why I heard they are a supperior battle rifle.... er something.

Anyhow, thanks, keep em coming.

[444]

That's Simple.

[J-Man]

Whew! This will always be an opinionated question....
I like the idea of a .22 for its ability to take small game and being able to haul a ton on ammo with you. But beyond varmint size animals, however, it's not very effective. I stock A LOT of .22LR myself but if I had to grab one gun it wouldn't be a .22. Stick to trapping for small game meat.
With that said my personal favorite is an FAL, specifically the DS Arms SA58 Medium Contour Tactical. VERY handy with it's short 16" barrel and short gas system. Will still shoot a 150 grain bullet to 2600fps, is only 36" long OAL, and weighs 9.5lbs with a fully loaded 20 round magazine. Few firearms are more reliable and any idiot can maintain a FAL- they are very simple and the manual of arms is nearly foolproof. That and the .308 platform is VERY versatile. You can shoot varmint loads, big game loads, tactical loads, match loads, armor piercing (AP) loads, etc., etc. FAL magazines are super cheap but the DS Arms guns aren't. They will last you a lifetime however.
If you need something cheaper the AK series is the way to go. It goes without saying that they are reliable and nearly bomb proof. Inexpensive too. The best AK available at any price is the VEPR and they only go for around $500. The Russian 7.62x39 ammo is also the cheapest thing you can shoot besides .22LR. Although compared to .308 Winchester it is lacking in ballistics, penetration, and definately versatility of bullet choices. Still good to 200 yards or so (which hopefully will be as far as you would ever try to shoot in SHTF- evasion is a far better option if there is some distance between you and the Bad Guys) and there is enough weight to them for deer (use softpoints or hollow points at least). Stick to hollowpoints for the two-legged vermin as the FMJ is pretty ineffective in this cartridge.
Many people might say to go with a bolt-gun for SHTF but if there is a massive social collapse you will need a gun for "crowd control" not hunting. Regardless of what you choose make sure it is a reliable semi with plenty of hi-cap mags and store a lot of ammo (I mean A LOT- for use and for trade). There are well over 200 million guns in this country and, mark my words, there will be an incredible amount of shooting going on. Once it starts the only likely thing that will stop it will be when everyone runs out of ammo. Best to stay out of the way as much as possible but if you are forced into a life-threatning confrontation you want to be able to put out as much precision fire as you can. And be the last man left with ammuniton for your gun....
Good luck! (And I say that because not only do I think there is a possibility of misfortune coming our way but because I think misfortune WILL come our way! i.e. We are just about setup for the biggest 'fall' in human histoty...)

[J-Man]

Oh, another reason why I like .308 Winchester is that it is very common (in the top 5 last I heard) and will interchange with my precision bolt-gun. It's not the most powerful cartridge but is by far and away the most versatile (and pretty consistent to boot- and consitency leads to accuracy)....

[Nightcrawler]

Most "main battle rifles" are in .308. Some, like the Garand, are in .30-06. ARs and SKS are intermediate cartridge rifles.

I'm not up on the FAL's max effective range

The sights are graduated to 600 meters. You need some skills to hit something with the irons at that range, but it if you can do your part a good .308 slug will hold up its end.

At any rate, living in California, your choices become very limited. No FALs, ('cept DSAs 10-round fixed magazine model) no ARs, and no AKs (except apparently the original VEPR rifle (http://www.robarm.com/RA_vepr_308.html)). That leaves you with prettymuch the Mini-14 and the M1A, as well as the M1 Garand. The Garand or the M1A would be my choice for a decent rifle, given these choices, with the Mini-14 trailing a distant third.

Can you get Saiga rifles in California? They'd be good options if you could.

[Dave R]

You had it right the first time. Good ol' AK. Not because it does any one thing real well, but because it does so many things pretty well.

Bolt gun is better at long distance, but not good for close-in or "riot control". AK is great for that.

.22 is better for small game, and you can carry more ammo, but it too wimpy for anything other than small game. AK is light & handy, and ammo is cheapest thing next to a .22

A .308 (yes, FAL is a .308) will hit harder at longer distances, but that thing is heavy. Ammo is heavy too, and more expensive. AK will hit hard enough, far enough. I shoot mine at 200 yards all the time. And is better for packing around, and for close-in/riot control, as stated earlier.

AR is also a good choice, but AK beats it on reliability and ability to absorb bad conditions, bad maintenance, and even bad luck, and still keep working. Yeah, the AR is more accurate. But the difference between a 4" group and a 6" group at 200 yards is not enough to sway my vote.

[J-Man]

I agree that FAL's are heavy in stock trim but that was before DS Arms came out with their SA58 Medium Contour Tactical. It only weighs 8.25lbs with an empty magazine! That's only about a pound-and-a-half more than a M4 profiled 16" barreled AR. And the SA58 has a fairly heavy Badger barrel on it.
Also, I think that the .308's main advantage is not in its range capabilities (although it does beat out the .223 and 7.62x39 in this regard) but in its versatility. That and it has enough power to go THROUGH a lot of things. Don't know about you but I'll be taking as much cover as possible when the shooting starts!
I do like the Russian round but that is mostly because it is cheap. If 7.62x39 was as expensive as .308 it would have nearly dissappeared in this country a long while ago. I still like the Kalashnikov design and Robinson Armament puts out the VEPR II in .308 which I really like- it just does't have any hi-cap mags for it....

[Sactown]

The whole idea was kinda to get something cool that I cant have in CA ...stupid CA....anyway

If money's tight (ain't it always?) I'd opt for an AK. 7.62X39 is plentiful and cheap. AK mags are cheap. AKs are cheap (price that is). It's something cool you can't have in Kali. When you're ready to up the budget you could always get the ARs or FALs.

[Nightcrawler]

Something cheap that you can't have in California? I'd go for a Romanian 5.45mm AK. Eventually I'd gussy it up with a new trigger group from Red Star Arms, some new furniture from K-Var, and maybe send it to one of the innumeral AK smiths out there for a refinish and the permanent installation of one of those authentic AK-74 muzzle brakes.

But the base gun won't cost you more than $350, $400 tops, and that's really pushing it. Plus, the 5.45mms are, from all accounts, noticeably more accurate than the 7.62x39mm carbines.

[Bostonterrier97]

You won't go wrong with either an M1 Garand or a Lee Enfield!

[Aikibiker]

The last time I was at the range one of the guys next to me was nice enough to let me shoot his SAR-1.

I found it to be very enjoyable, light recoil, surprisingly accurate (especially after all I have heard on the net) and just generally fun to shoot.

Needless to say I am plotting how to acquire funds to get one.


My 2 cents

[MAKOwner]

I'd definitely get an AK. I personally would get a SAR2 in 5.45, as I totally love mine. I also have a SAR1 in 7.62x39 and it is attractrive due to the round being slightly cheaper than 5.45, and far more available. But the SAR2 is just such a great shooter, ammo is still cheaper/comparable to the cheapest 5.56, mags are cheap/plentiful right now, etc. My SAR2 shoots slightly tighter groups than my SAR1, and is just more fun to shoot IMO. I really love it...

And as to people who say the SAR quality is iffy, that only applies to the fit and finish (which I contend does not matter...) and possibly the US made FCG pieces they come with. For $30 you can get a solid FCG set, and you're still quite a bit cheaper than the other current choices in an AK. I've had a pair of Chinese AKs as well, and frankly I prefer these Romanian guns...

You can get a SAR2 and a Kvar synthetic stockset for right at $400 easily if you shop around. Or if you're uber-cheap like me you could refinish the stockset either with nicer wood finishes, or spray on truck bed liner (that's that I did on the SAR2). Sounds ghetto but it turns out awesome, nice pebble grain texture, very strong finish, cheap to do (~$7)... Probably do it to my SAR1 at some point as well...

www.inter-scape.com/ray/stuff/sars.jpg
www.inter-scape.com/ray/stuff/sar2-8.jpg

[Tropical Z]

Saiga .308 AK!
No "weird" calibers with NO hope of resupply should be considered.

[TheLastBoyScout]

Saiga's .308 AK takes the exact same ammo that the FAL takes, otherwise known as 7.62x51mm or 7.62 NATO. This is in no way an uncommon caliber.
If you meant that parts for a .308 AK could be hard to find, its just something to deal with. Despite the fact that my AR is among the most common weapons out there, I still would like to have enough spares to replace whatever's likely to break and would not like to have to scrounge for vital parts post-SHTF. Having a less common weapon config just makes this more important.

[Tropical Z]

I wasnt talking about FAL's-more like 5.45x39 or the like.

[TheLastBoyScout]

Ok, I thought you were referring to a Saiga in .308 as being a "weird caliber with no hope of resupply":)

[Sven]

I'd say M1A, but that's because I'm obsessed with building my own M1A right now.

I love the idea of a semi-auto in .308, with accuracy to boot. 20-rounders are available (outside CA).... and getting expensive, but they are more reliable (from what I've heard) than the Mini14 mags.

Chances of finding ammo for .308 on the home front in a SHTF scenario are greater than many - if not most - rifle calibers.

Just guessing.

[9mmepiphany]

i'm thinking the most common calibre would be 5.56x45mm because all you have to find are military or LE supplies.

at least on the west coast, it seems that the 7.62x39mm is more available then the 7.62x51mm. it has to do with the proliferation of sks/ak-clones and the cheap ammo. there are loadings available from most major domestic ammo manufacturers as well as imported ammo from the former soviet bloc countries.

it is unfortunate that my favorite (5.45x39mm) is the least available, but if i have to reload all my mags more then 10 times (to exhaust my ammo supply), i figure i've got big problems.

[teppo-shu]

Saiga in .308! OK in Kali + cheap + cheap ammo = FUN + FUN + protection.

Bada-bing!!;)

[Tom C.]

Lots of opinion. Little facts. Your choice has to reflect the scenario you envision. Currently, I see a possible terrorist strike that could cause collapse of much government control. Unlikely, but no more so than the old nuke scares from the ‘70s. Pick your own.
My choice is still the M-1 Garand. Get one from the DCM. Stock ammo in 8 rd. clips. Learn to use it.

[Matthew_Q]

I'd personally grab my M4 clone, but those Gibbs rifles, or #7 Enfields look like they'd be a good grab and go rifle. Being .308/7.62, ammo would be cheap and available. The Enfield action would be strong and durable. Being bolt, it would help eliminate jams, and be ultra-reliable, and will kinda help reduce expenditure of ammunition.

I'd like to get one to use for hog hunting trips, instead of using a full length Enfield, like I do now. I know the shorter Enfields like the No5 Jungle Carbine and the Ishapore No7s are short and light, so they must kick like a mofo, but I have seen someone mount a muzzle brake from an SKS on an Enfield (same diameter projectile.. .311), and says it works great.

I think it might be neat to look into. :)

[goon]

If you choose an Enfield, I would stick with .303. I have had problems with the #7 that I have. I did get the ejection problems almost fixed, but not enough that I want to trust it with my life.
But suprisingly, the #7 doesn't kick that hard. I shot mine from the bench last time until I ran out of ammo, and I still wasn't sore. In fairness, the reliability thing is most likely just a screw, but I just don't feel like messing with it anymore.

But, I am getting the sense that they guy who started this thread wants something non-PC. In view of that, I would suggest something that has as many evil features as you can afford.
Ammo for the eastern bloc calibers might be more difficult to get in a pinch, but it is also only $80 for 1K of 7.62x39mm shipped to your door. For that, you could squirrel away a pretty good supply relatively cheaply.
If something big did happen, any ammo for any caliber would probably be sold out, so the resupply would be a moot point. And anything that happens will only last for a few weeks or so before the authorities get things under control. The up close sting of the AK is a very good advantage.
Like I said, a bolt action 308 would be my choice, but that doesn't mean that I would want the guy with the AK shooting at me. Even with my more powerful, accurate, scoped rifle, it would make me nervous.
I would avoid the 5.45mm. It isn't as common as the 7.62x39, 7.62x51, or the 5.56, so it may be hard to stock the same amount of ammo as easily.
That, and for long term, I think that the other rounds will be around longer. Something to consider if you plan on shooting it for many years.

So, if I felt the need for a non-PC rifle, I would start with the AK.
In fact, I did. :D

[Solinvictus70]

I guess if I were in your situation, I would take a long look at either the VEPR or Saiga in .223. The Saiga's list on Gunsamerica for about $220-250 in .223. Yeah, it's only 10 rounds, but the average looter/rioter/hooligan is not going to keep trying under fire. :D

[cslinger]

Wouldn't the old "Liberator" route work just fine if need be.

I don't know what kind of SHTF scenario we are talking about but if a few hundred rounds doesn't cut the mustard then you are most likely experiencing armed confrontation. Therefore kill a straggler and take his weapons and so on and so forth.

I mean most of us keep a little ammo for each of our firearms so if you plan on staying put and defending the homestead a few hundred rounds should be just fine and chances are you have more ammo than that. If you are forced to move then avoidance should be the SOP of the day, should ammo get low just go get another weapon, ie after a long hard day of killing the enemy take some time to relax and loot their bodies.

:D

[goon]

Wouldn't the old "Liberator" route work just fine if need be.

Agreed.
I would think that a 1911 with a few loaded magazines would be enough to get you whatever the enemy has. They you would have all the ammo you could carry.