Ramp and Throat Job-2


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1911Tuner
February 27, 2006, 08:35 AM
The owner of the ruined gun in the previous thread has taken two photos of the feed ramp sans barrel, so that we can have a look at the rest of the story. I'll merge the two threads a little later and open both for comments.

Meanwhile...feast your eyes on this Killed Kimber.

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1911Tuner
February 27, 2006, 08:36 AM
Thread stuck. Comments?

HSMITH
February 27, 2006, 09:37 AM
Nah, it ain't dead. It only needs a couple hundred bucks (minimum) worth of loving before it is healthy again.

By the time the frame ramp is welded up and re-cut and a new barrel fitted it should be good to go other than the fact that it will still be a series 2 kimber with external extractor:neener: :evil:

1911Tuner
February 27, 2006, 09:53 AM
Gonna take machine work and a ramp insert...Alloy frame. Guess the "smith" didn't know about anodizing and what happens to feed ramps when it's removed...:rolleyes:

Old Fuff
February 27, 2006, 10:20 AM
I really like the high polish and radius at the top... :cuss: :banghead:

The guy that did this calls himself a gunsmith... ???????:barf:

U.S.SFC_RET
February 27, 2006, 10:48 AM
Tuner Thanks for posting the thread. a tiny thousands of an inch an equal miles in your business especially when it comes to throat jobs. People just don't know how a little bit can go a super long way.

1911Tuner
February 27, 2006, 11:11 AM
Quotes:

>A tiny thousands of an inch an equal miles...especially when it comes to throat jobs. People just don't know how a little bit can go a super long way.
***************

>The guy that did this calls himself a gunsmith... ???????
***********************

Exactly...and that's why I cringe whenever a member with a feed/return to battery issue comes up...and usually the first advice is to start polishing on the ramp and throat...and I go into conniptions when it's accompanied by the word "Dremel.":banghead:

The problem really got going in the early 80s, when the gun rags were publishing an article about every other month on "How to make YOUR 1911 more reliable!" Of course, the articles always contained "instructions" on ramp and throat polishing...AND...of course without anything mentioned about angles and corners and what NOT to do...and the trashed pistols began showing up every week. I got to the point that I could just about predict what type of repair work that we'd soon see simply by browsing the magazine racks at the local newsstand

This was in the days when only one or two shops offered steel ramp inserts, and the inserts literally had to be hand-made...and it was very expensive, easily equaling the cost of a new gun. It's still expensive.

While some few steel-framed guns could be salvaged with careful manipulation, it didn't work in all cases...and if an alloy-framed Colt Commander had been treated to the "Reliability" work...you could generally just hand it back to the owner and tell him to use it for a wall-hanger.

HSMITH
February 27, 2006, 07:26 PM
Alloy you say? Got your Wilson/Nowlin ramp cutter handy? I would put a ramped barrel in it a lot sooner than I would have it cut for an insert......

Jim Watson
February 27, 2006, 08:45 PM
I saw a LW Commander 9mm P at a gun show a while back. Looked new, I was reaching for my billfold with one hand and the gun with the other, never mind the traditional haggling. But when he clipped the wiretie and I racked the slide to see the rough white metal of what used to be the frame ramp, I laid it down fast. He was not ameniable to my offer of half his price so I could afford an insert and a hit on the originality value of the gun.

tc300mag1
February 27, 2006, 08:48 PM
I love it when people work on the feed ramps and dont have a clue..

Would it be cheeper to have a frame insert dont or to have the frame milled to take a fully ramped barrel?

blackhorse
February 28, 2006, 08:59 PM
I'll bet he was using a $5.00 gun show mag!

foghornl
September 6, 2006, 02:53 PM
All I can say is " :cuss: WOW!"

Most I have done to any of mine is a bit of "Flitz" on a single patch, and wipe firmly but carefully.

kaferhaus
November 2, 2006, 08:33 AM
I rarely see this type of thing, but when I do, the gun is not a "wall hanger" or trash and telling a customer that is baloney.

in the worst case a ramped barrel can be installed, in some cases correcting the angles will work and in others a bit of careful welding and recontouring can put all back right.

I'm a businessman.... I never insult a customer no matter how badly he may deserve it.

In fact, I have a soft spot for folks that work on their own guns.... it does after all put food on my table.

1911Tuner
November 2, 2006, 09:17 AM
Quote:

>I rarely see this type of thing, but when I do, the gun is not a "wall hanger" or trash and telling a customer that is baloney.<
*************

Depends greatly on whether the gun's value justifies the cost of the repair, now doesn't it? Some will spend the money on a Thompson Auto-Ordnance for sentimental reasons...Some won't. Some are okay with the repair on an otherwise decent Union Switch, while others would be more prone to leaving it alone to preserve what's left of its authenticity.

Too many "What ifs" "ands" or "buts" to make a baloney call. So how about:
"It's a wall-hanger unless you want to spend the money to have an insert installed?"

Better?;)

saltydog452
November 2, 2006, 09:53 AM
I think 1911Tuner has been reading my mail.

I just bought a Commander. The on-line seller respopnded to my questions regarding the lugs and slots and the feed ramp. All were 'in excellent condition'. (His words)

Upon receipt, what should look like a dull black annodized finish is all nice and shiney.

This gent and I are about to have a few words.

I do want to be sure that I know just exactly what I'm talking about before I open my mouth and insert foot.

From what I can gather from this and previous posts by Mr(s) Watson, Keenan, Tuner, Fuff, and Rogers, the frame can be salvaged, but its gonna get kinda pricey.

Just so I understand before I uncork on this worthy gent, what are my options?

I really don't want to get overly belligerent and rude if an 'adjustment' is in the deck, about how much 'adjustment' would it take to put this Commander back as advertised?...('in excellent condition')

Refinish? Hard annodized...Moly...Hard Chrome...Birdsong Black T...etc. If so, by who and how much (approx)?

New one piece barrel? Again, by who and how much (approx)?

Insert?

Your comments and suggestions are welcome and appreciated.

Thanks,

salty.


P.S...I can't help it. I do like Commanders, so much so that I'm getting one for each of my sons as well for my own self. It appears that someone slipped a ringer in the deck with this paticular item though.

thanx again,

sd.

1911Tuner
November 2, 2006, 12:06 PM
It depends, Salty. If only the finish was removed, it may not have gone through the anodizing...but the chances of that are pretty slim, since the hard anodizing is pretty thin. Doesn't take a lot of whizzin' on it with a dremel to cut through it if an abrasive was used. How does the top corner of the ramp look? Still clean, or rounded off any?

saltydog452
November 2, 2006, 01:38 PM
I dunno.

I looked at it yesterday at the local FFL guy's shop.

It was a brief meeting...me and the Cmdr....saw the shiny ramp and asked the guy to hold it till I spoke with the sender.

I/We did not process the transfer documentation. He is going to hold it 'till I get in touch with the sender.

I have a three day inspection period...with the Commnder remaining in 'unfired' condition.

I don't have a lot of time to 'put my ducks in a row' before I speak with the seller.

If I send it back, I will be responsible for local guy's 'log in' accountable fee, (I think that its reasonable..these folks should not have to be accountable for paperwork w/o compensation for their time and liability...just my rant), return shipping costs, and the fee that the 'on-line 'brokerage house charged.

At any rate, return shipping and incidental costs are prefreble to repair costs.

Be back in a mnt...

sd.

saltydog452
November 2, 2006, 02:04 PM
I don't know if power tools were involved, or not.

Transfer paperwork has not ben completed.

The FFL guy is going to hold it for another day, or two.

I have to either accept the mdse, or send it back...soon.

What ,I think, should look like dull an flat colored anodozing on the feed ramp is bright and shiny.

Seller and I are gonna talk.

Just want to make sure that I'm sure of what I'm about to talk about.

Want to know what my options regarding costs to put the Cmdr in as advertised, (excellent condition) condition.

I apologise for brief comments.

sd.

kaferhaus
November 2, 2006, 02:08 PM
Too many "What ifs" "ands" or "buts" to make a baloney call. So how about:
"It's a wall-hanger unless you want to spend the money to have an insert installed?"

Better?


Not better, PERFECT!

1911Tuner
November 2, 2006, 02:27 PM
ALready covered in Ramp and Throat Job 1...;)

Salty...if the price is right, and you can bring up the point of the anodizing being compromised...see if you can get a hundred bucks off the asking price to cover the cost of an insert. EGW's cost is 150 bucks. Freight and insurance will add to the total.

saltydog452
November 2, 2006, 07:09 PM
If anyone has the time, how about some explanation regarding the insert.

I 'spect it'd be welded into the frame. That'd be welding dis-similar metals.

Would the insert be preferable to a replacement barrel with a one piece feed ramp?

I guess I'll call EGW tomorrow and talk with George. At this point though, I don't know enough about inserts vs. one piece feed ramps to ask reasonably intelligent questions.

I appreciate your paitence. Thanks,

salty.

PotatoJudge
November 2, 2006, 07:27 PM
The frame is milled out for the insert, which is held in place with JB weld (sometimes) and a set screw. For reasons I don't understand it is preferable to a ramped barrel, especially in 45 acp.

http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=146569&highlight=frame+ramp+insert

51Cards
November 18, 2006, 12:44 PM
OK. Let's start with my Colt Defender, which, instead of "breaking in," is "breaking out."

It's been back to the store because it was having trouble ejecting/feeding. After they "tweaked" the extractor and after I researched and (oh-so-slightly!!!) radiused the bottom of the extractor recess, it now throws brass to virtually the same spot every time.

HOWEVER ...

This gun has ALWAYS had trouble with JHPs, and it has now gotten unmanageable. It is NOT the mags --- we tried Colt, Springfield, Wilson, etc. --- all the same. As mentioned, it is NOT an FTE problem --- yesterday, I rapid-fired/upside-down fired/etc., and the gun works beautifully with FMJs. I mean, perfect.

BUT --- put JHPs in, and it gags --- the live round either jams horizontally or stovepipes nose-up.

I did some research (sight1911.com), downloaded the 1942 blueprints, stripped my Springfield 1911A1 and the Colt Defender, and took out the calipers.

The space between the frame ramp and the barrel ramp is greater on the SA (supposed to be 1/32"+ ?) It is negligible on the Colt. The distance from the back of the barrel link ears to the edge of the SA barrel ramp is 0.222" --- the distance on the Colt is 0.247".

So it seems to me that my Defender's barrel throat is coming into battery at least 0.025" too far back. Which would be, what? --- about 80% of the tolerance out? When I strip the Defender, mount the barrel (without the slide), and put a mag with JHPs in and "hand-feed," I can feel the bullet grabbing on the throat.

SO --- how idiotically, insanely stupid :confused: would it be to gently file down the bottom of the Defender's barrel ramp, then re-bevel and polish?

(Oh, I can feel the love, here ...)

The barrel throat currently has what appears to be the correct 18-degree bevel running around from the hood, and at the bottom --- the ramp --- there's a smooth, narrow half-moon indent (about 0.004" deep), all polished nicely.

After reading a number of horror stories :what: :what: :what: here, I'm a little slow to trash a $200 barrel. On the other hand, it looks (deceptively?) simple to correct this. I also don't want to wait til July to get the gun back ...

Either that, or live with ball ammo. Sure.

OK. Let the cussin' begin ...

Canuck-IL
November 18, 2006, 01:39 PM
Have you tried several brands of HP bullets? Not all the ashtrays are designed alike....anyway, if it chokes on all/many and it's important to you that it shoot HPs, I'd file and rebevel with all the care you seem to appreciate is necessary. I did it with an SA barrel into a Norinco frame to create the .032 ramp-to-ramp offset and it worked out fine - eats absolutely anything now, even short SWCs.

I'd say good luck but, luck has nothing to do with it ... go slow, re-assemble and test often.
/Bryan

51Cards
November 18, 2006, 02:46 PM
I can post photos, if necessary.

I've mentioned this elsewhere on THR, but --- the original mag followers did a nice "woodpecker" job on the bottom of the frame ramp :cuss: . The followers have (long) since been replaced with Wilsons.

BTW, when I say this gun is flawless with ball ammo, I mean FLAWLESS. Pretty much a tackdriver (for what it is, that is :D --- 3/4" off rest at 25 feet), and the "torture" yesterday ran at about 2 seconds per 7-round mag, 4 mags in a row. It was fun hanging on for the ride. Point being, mags: OK; gun: OK; firing sequence/timing: OK. So it really is only the HP/ramp/throat issue.

The_Antibubba
November 18, 2006, 03:35 PM
'Tuner, thanks for the photos.

What I'm curious about is a job done properly. The magazine always show the $3000 custom guns with the 150 man-hours invested in it, so of course the ramp is perfect. And you've shown us a couple of botch jobs. But can you show us a Before, During, and After? You know, if you get one in, and the owner consents to have it documented.

Sure, I'm curious about the procedure, but this is even more to reinforce in me that it's over my head. :p

1911Tuner
November 18, 2006, 03:38 PM
If the ramp is perfect, and all is within spec...no procedure is necessary, and could even be detrimental.

The photos are courtesy of Chuck Rogers of Rogers Precision.

51Cards
November 19, 2006, 01:58 PM
My apologies. I realized late yesterday that I had "gunked up" this thread before reading the volumes of incredibly helpful information already archived elsewhare on this site.

Stem jams.

Great, great stuff.

(Thanks for not :neener: ing me ...)

Flynt
November 25, 2006, 05:08 PM
I have just bought a new Springfield 1911 Hi-Cap. It fires flawlessly with FMJ ammo, but doesn't like the Brass Encased Bullets -- one or two FTF's per 13 round magazine. (I haven't tried JHP's yet.)

I noticed that the feed ramp is tiny compared to my other 1911's -- all of which are single stacks. In other words, the other feed ramps roughly follow the contours of the top of the mag well, even my Springer WWII GI. The high cap's feed ramp is a tiny little inverted triangle, maybe .25 inch wide at the top. My question is, Would a feed ramp job by a capable gunsmith be of any benefit? Or is the feed ramp designed this way because it's the only thing that will work with Springfield's double stack mag? Thanks.

Old Fuff
November 25, 2006, 05:58 PM
Or is the feed ramp designed this way because it's the only thing that will work with Springfield's double stack mag? Thanks.

Yup, ya' got a real clue there. And no, a double-column magazine doesn't feed exactly the same way a single-column one does.

SRT1
March 26, 2008, 11:58 AM
I want to know what happened with Salty. Any updates? :(

LogicGS
April 29, 2009, 04:28 AM
I have just bought a new Springfield 1911 Hi-Cap. It fires flawlessly with FMJ ammo, but doesn't like the Brass Encased Bullets -- one or two FTF's per 13 round magazine. (I haven't tried JHP's yet.)

I noticed that the feed ramp is tiny compared to my other 1911's -- all of which are single stacks. In other words, the other feed ramps roughly follow the contours of the top of the mag well, even my Springer WWII GI. The high cap's feed ramp is a tiny little inverted triangle, maybe .25 inch wide at the top. My question is, Would a feed ramp job by a capable gunsmith be of any benefit? Or is the feed ramp designed this way because it's the only thing that will work with Springfield's double stack mag? Thanks.


If it functions reliably now, don't mess with it.

It is not uncommon at all for the feed ramp to be smaller looking in a high cap than a single stack.

For one thing, the mag well is a lot wider, so even the correct sized cut looks smaller.

For another, the double stack mags I've dealt with (mostly STI/SVI 2011 stuff) present the round higher in relation to the frame than the single stack guns do, so they can get by with a shallower (and thusly narrower) ramp.

That said, just last week I had to re-cut the ramp on an STI 2011 frame because it was so shallow that the thing wouldn't even feed 230 grn ball (FMJ RN).

If it runs now without issue, don't futz with it and create an issue.

That's my stance.

When gunsmithing, you gotta be like a doctor, always remember: "First, do no harm."

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