Ithaca back in business - in Ohio


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Preacherman
February 27, 2006, 03:24 PM
From the Press & Sun-Bulletin, Binghampton, NY ( http://www.pressconnects.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060207/SPORTS/602070332/1003 ):

Tuesday February 7, 2006

Back in business: It's now known as Ithaca Guns USA

Dave Henderson

The familiar but tattered Ithaca Gun name can once again be listed with shotgun manufacturing companies.

It's now Ithaca Guns USA, LLC, and headquarters is Upper Sandusky, Ohio.

The move from moribund to viable happened, or is happening, fast. When I ran across the Web site (http://www.ithacagunsusa.com/) last week, it was still under construction and I was only the 700th-something visitor.

Craig and Floyd Marshall, owners of MoldCraft, a molding and tool and die company that makes plastic molds for fast food chains' salad bowls and the like, purchased the rights to the Ithaca Gun name, designs and inventory in December. Using their 30,000 square-foot CNC machinery-equipped plant and Ithaca Gun plans and specs, the new company is already turning out variations of the Model 37 pump that has been the flagship of the troubled Ithaca Gun name for early 70 years.

"We've been in business for 36 years," said Craig Marshall from his office Monday afternoon. "We had the machinery and the know-how— and frankly I find the gun business far more exciting than molding salad containers."

Ithaca Gun LLC, which was formed in 1995 to purchase the company's name and assets following the failure of Ithaca Acquisition Inc. in King Ferry, failed itself last summer.

The company moved from its rented factory quarters in King Ferry last spring in anticipation of being purchased by a Rhode Island entity. When the deal fell through, Ithaca Gun LLC — which had defaulted on a development loan from Cayuga County and faced significant federal and private debt — closed its doors.

The company's barrel machine was lost as collateral and most of the remaining tooling was sold off, but netted just $8,200. The Marshalls entered the picture in the fall with a purchase offer, and a deal was was finally negotiated a week before Christmas.

"I think the former owners deserve credit in that they turned down a larger offer to assure that manufacturing would remain here (in the United States) and quality would be maintained," Marshall said.

The guns are identical to those made in the past, but Marshall notes that the use of better steel and new manufacturing processes will improve the quality. The company is building variations of the Model 37 bottom-ejection pump and has plans to eventually redesign and build the Model 51 autoloader, the NID double and possibly the elaborate Knickerbocker trap design.

They have a service department in place that will service all Ithaca models with the exception of the SKBs. The new company cannot honor the warranties on guns built by Ithaca Gun LLC, however, because of pending legal consideration.

Ithaca Gun was founded in the 1880s and was managed for nearly 100 years by the Smith family until it fell on hard times and sold out to the company that owned Brunswick/AMF in the 1980s. That Ithaca Gun entity went bankrupt in 1986 and a Rochester-based corporation, Ithaca Acquisition was formed to buy the assets in 1987. That company moved the manufacturing plant from its original site on Fall Creek in Ithaca to a school building in King Ferry in 1989. Ithaca Acquisition failed in 1994 and Ithaca-based Ithaca Gun LLC was formed in 1995.

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ArmedBear
February 27, 2006, 03:55 PM
The fact that a overpriced pump gun is their flagship -- oops ONLY -- product could be one of the problems with the company... It's a nice pump gun, but this isn't 1949.

If they use that CNC machinery to make an American gun that is less expensive, equal or better in quality, prettier and easier to find than a new BT-99, they'll be on their way. A GOOD O/U design and some nice SxS upland guns for less money and in more gauges than Ruger's Gold Label, and they're good to go.

What the American gun market DOESN'T need:

1. $500+ pump shotguns.
2. Yet another semiauto (unless it's something really creative and cool, like some must-have upland gun that swings like nothing else in the world, or some really unique Sporting Clays comp gun and even that is getting to be a really saturated market).
3. Guns with full-page ads everywhere but don't actually exist. :)

foghornl
February 27, 2006, 04:18 PM
I am delighted to see an American company up & running again...particularly here in Ohio, where we have lost A BUNCH of manufacturing jobs over the last 10 years.

P.S. Open note to Springfield Armory, Armalite, and other gun makers*** in The Peoples Demokratic Republik of ILL...If ILL-inois House Bill HB2414 gets passsed into law, follow the lead of Ithaca, and move to Ohio. We are still not as gun friendly as some other states, but we'd be glad to have ya move in & set up shop here.



***Rock River Arms & Les Baer Custom are also there, right?

cmidkiff
February 27, 2006, 04:48 PM
I've got a Model 37 Featherweight, great gun. Glad to see them up and running again.

Wonder if they sell that 'Law Enforcement' stock and forearm :)

huntsman
February 27, 2006, 05:07 PM
the question is who will buy ? take a poll on this board you'll find a ton
870 expresses, alot less wingmasters, md12's and 37's. the market seems to be for $200. pumpguns.

I looked at new ithica before and didn't think it measured up to the orginals. maybe these guys will make a true featherweight again, a 16 that is 6lbs with the 28" barrel.

ArmedBear
February 27, 2006, 05:37 PM
Here, we have a 3-shot limit for ANY shotgun hunting. Most states do, AFAIK. Doesn't do much for the desirability of a pump gun.

I use a pump gun because it's what I've got. But I wouldn't go spend good money on a fancy one.

An old Ithaca double, though...:)

ReadyontheRight
February 27, 2006, 05:40 PM
Guns Ithaca should make:

-"Tactical" pump gun with ghost ring sights, mag extension, a 18.5" bbl and Piccatinny rails all over the place - including a package with a light
-Shorter versions of the above - including a modular "system" like the Remington MCS
-A new Ithaca Auto & Burgler - with specific instructions on their site describing how to apply for the federal stamps to legally own
-A nice sub-$1000 double shotgun or two
-A nice sub-$1000 double RIFLE in 45-70
-~$300 16ga featherweight

Headless Thompson Gunner
February 27, 2006, 05:44 PM
Why are Ithacas pump guns so much more expensive?

ArmedBear
February 27, 2006, 05:52 PM
They're not more expensive than the Browning BPS, a similar gun. But nobody actually buys the BPS, either. They're a different design from most modern pump guns, a JMB design I believe.

Both have some sort of auto-feed feature so you can stuff all three rounds in the magazine and the first one gets thrown into the receiver. Kinda cool, but you still only get 3 shots when you're hunting (here anyway). And they eject through the bottom.

It seems most shotgunners prefer pumps for cheap and reliable, or autoloaders/breakopens for higher-end.

Wags
February 27, 2006, 05:56 PM
Zzzzzzzzz. Old news and same news article as before. What Ithaca (Craig Marshall) needs to do is start putting products on Dealers shelves, and full page adds in popular gun rags to get the word out they are back in business. I'm excited for them, but will not purchase anything new until I start hearing how quality is and price. I wish them all the luck in the world.

Wags
February 27, 2006, 06:02 PM
ArmedBear: The Ithaca Mod 37 is a John Browning design, but there is a big difference between the Mod 37 and BPS other than bottom ejection.

The auto-feed feature you mentioned is NOT related with the Mod 37 or BPS. It's the Browning Auto-5. Bad information your putting out here is not good for new shotgunners that are here to learn.

ArmedBear
February 27, 2006, 06:09 PM
Sorry about the bad info. I thought the Browning-designed pumps had a similar feed design.

Also, I wasn't saying the BPS and 37 are the same design; rather, I was trying to say that the two guns are in a similar league as far as current-production pump guns go, and that their prices are similar.

My bad.

Market-wise, the question isn't whether the 37 is "worth" more money, but whether most pump-gun buyers care about the difference as long as the 870 works fine, costs a lot less, and has lots of parts and accessories available for cheap.

Also, if the Model 12 was still in production, it would be even more expensive.

I bought an 870 for $235 new, and it's shot thousands of rounds at clays, and a good deal fewer at birds over water and brush.

But my real money is going for break-actions, starting with a Browning I pick up Wednesday. High-end pump guns don't fit my needs or wants, nor those of most other people around the local shotgun ranges or hunting areas.

Coronach
February 27, 2006, 06:17 PM
I think that they would be stupid to drop the M37. When you say Ithaca, you think M37. There will always be a market for them...but its a niche market, not a growth market.

So, I think they need to also diversify their lineup a lot.

Mike

ArmedBear
February 27, 2006, 06:33 PM
Oh yeah, keep the M37.

But if a company banks its future on confronting Remington and Mossberg pump guns (and now Benelli Novas as well as various el-cheapo knockoff guns) head-on in the mass market, I'm not buying their stock!:)

There's HUGE opportunity in the shotgun market right now. But that's not where you'll find it.

Wags
February 27, 2006, 08:19 PM
The Mod 37 is the current flagship for the name Ithaca. Granted they are a lot more expensive than the standard pumps now out there, but you have an all steel shotgun, lighweight, handfitted, and an action smooth as glass. No plastic parts, period. I have a 20ga from the late 1940's where the action will almost work itself when you stand the shotgun up-right. Try that with any other pump...... And the Deerslayer line are still IMO the most accurate slug guns you can find.

It's a tuff sell when everyone is trying to save a buck marketing a new pump action product around $450 and up. Are they worth it? In some aspects yes. But Ithaca is competing against some established heaver hitter quality shotgun manufactures that are making quality products also and a few hundred $$$ cheaper. It's all in what the consumer wants or willing to spend.

When I open my safe and I'm going small game hunting mainly birds, it's a no brainer here at the Wags household, grap an Ithaca Mod 37. Lug one around an afternoon sometime and you'll see why they are the prefered choice of some of the old timers ( and newer shooters also). And don't forget that quick 2nd or 3rd shot from the smoothest action you'll ever work........

ArmedBear
February 27, 2006, 08:42 PM
Well I have to admit to being a bit of a contrarian myself; I was thinking about the mass market. Looking closer at the 37...

Do you have any idea what the going price of a 37 English Upland 20 gauge will be?:)

Marshall
February 27, 2006, 09:06 PM
Might have to buy one. I've bought a BPS, might have to have the other bottom ejector. I always happy anytime something good happens with any firearms manufacturer.

asknight
February 27, 2006, 10:24 PM
"and has plans to eventually redesign and build the Model 51 autoloader"

WHAT?!

Why redesign it? Just bring it back! I love my dear old 51 Featherlight in 12ga. w/ 26" barrel. It is the ultimate upland shotty, and swings like a dream. I don't want plastic on my guns.

I hope this plastic company won't turn Ithaca into another TUBAR shotty manufacturer.

No, Ithaca doesn't "need" a tactical shotgun. Everyone else and their mama is doing that right now. Bring back the classics that we love, then start doing something more.

huntsman
February 27, 2006, 11:00 PM
I have a 20ga from the late 1940's where the action will almost work itself when you stand the shotgun up-right.

It wasn't to many years ago when you could pick up a used one in good condition for $250. I'll bet if you looked you could find a 40-50's vintage model 37 for under $500. it will be fixed choke probilly mod or full

Larry Ashcraft
February 27, 2006, 11:12 PM
the action will almost work itself when you stand the shotgun up-right. Try that with any other pump
Except a High Standard (or J.C. Higgins). They do it quite nicely.

Still, the 37 was a very nice shotgun. I've owned one and used another (owned by my dad). I hope they continue.

Hawk
February 27, 2006, 11:24 PM
Nothing wrong with a niche market. Most people, myself included, don't think of pumps when the conversation turns to high-end shotguns.

But the pump always seemed to me to be an American classic and an engraved version with select wood was something I always wanted to add eventually. The no side-eject made for a great canvas - Stephen Olin (http://www.stephenolin.com/Ithaca.html) comes to mind, as example.

For reasons I'm not at all clear on, the Ithaca could be made considerably lighter than the BPS. An American "fine game gun" if you will. Not as refined as the continentals, but distinctly American.

I've got sufficient mass market guns.
That Ithaca always did clean up real nice...

ReadyontheRight
February 28, 2006, 12:29 AM
From what I've read - at one time, Ithacas were THE police shotgun - probably because of the TV show Adam-12. It's a market they could re-enter. Push the all-steel and left/right-friendly bottom eject.

Sure, there are a lot of "tactical" shotgun gizmos out there, but I think Ithaca could fill a gap with a pump gun that includes rock-solid, metal AR-like attachments using police and military to help in the design.

Selling 12-ga pumps to hunters just is not going to drive enough profit to stay in business.

Shweboner
February 28, 2006, 01:01 AM
I had an older M37 Featherweight. It didnt really do much for me, the action wasn't near what my Mossy has. But it was 'nice' and it always worked. But it got downsized along with a few others in favor of something new.

That being said.....

I cannot wait to get my hands on one of these... depends on the price though..

Dave McCracken
February 28, 2006, 09:48 AM
A couple things...

First, I'm glad there's an Ithaca gun company again. I do hope this one stays the course.

The problem with any US made pumpgun is that it has to compete with Remington and Mossberg. That means it has to offer something the others do not.

The 37 is a great shotgun. JMB designed the Model 17 as an upland shotgun, and the 37 followed suit. It's light, reliable, quick, and shallow enough in profile that it's a great pointer.

The flat sided, uninterrupted design lends itself to ornamentation. The two fanciest pumps I ever saw were 37s, made to be presented to President Eisenhower. Asking price was over $40K. They were worth it, gold birds and all.

OTOH, the Deerslayer variant was meant for slugs, but the full length Full choke given by the undersized bore worked well with buck, and many a point man in The Nam Mess thanked Heaven for his. The DS was the first open sighted fighting shotgun we had. Still a good choice out where the sidewalks end and the wild things are.

Never owned a 37 but did fire a few. Decent triggers, smooth action and a well deserved rep for performance.

If I ever get a non 870 pump, it'll be either a Model 12 or a 37.....

Lennyjoe
February 28, 2006, 04:02 PM
The 37 fits the bill if your a lefty. I just found one used and abused for $175 but think I can get him down to $150. If so, Im gonna have to get it duracoated or something cause there is a bit of rust and the blueing is beat up. Still, for $150 + the cost of duracoating, it's gonna make a nice field gun for birds.

Coronach
February 28, 2006, 05:42 PM
"Police shotgun" is also not a growth market. I think they'd do better coming out with a 1911 and an AR. Those markets are crowded, but one always seems to sell and the other is a growth one if they can give competitive deals to LE agencies. That's less of a comment on the viability of the latter two than it is a comment on the viability of the former. Remington and Mossberg have what's left of LE shotgun sales sewn up, and that market is shrinking due to more and more agencies moving to patrol rifles in lieu of shotguns. I think you'd be nuts to take a new company into LE shotgun sales against those two juggernauts.

That said, I think they'd be even better sticking to shotties until they are re-established. One place that seems to be ripe is inexpensive sxs and o/u guns. If they can make a gun that is priced like a Huglu or Baikal, solidly built and has better fit and finish and ergos, they should be good sellers. Right now the choice seems to be (to me at least), paying a crazy amount for a polished gun or paying a reasonable amount for something austere. One would think they could provide something in between and make a living, especially if they have modern CNC machinery (which would keep base costs down and allow you to spend more money on hand fitting and finishing).

Mike

ArmedBear
February 28, 2006, 06:02 PM
Coronach or anyone else who knows...

If a Wingmaster -- American made, top quality, walnut stocked and nicely polished -- is under $500 and a nice second barrel for it is under $200, is there any reason why the new Ithaca, with modern machinery and engineering know-how, couldn't reproduce the field grade Ithaca SxS for $750 retail?

What a nice-balancing gun!

What about giving Browning's BT-99 a run for their money by resurrecting single barrel Ithaca trap guns -- still in demand and still used in competion after 80 years -- for under $1000, American-made? It's hard to even GET a BT; they sell as fast as they come into the country, and they're $1350 and up.

Ithaca could make high-end versions, too, but nice guns with about the wood quality, fit and finish of the Wingmaster would be the bread and butter. That's what Ithaca used to do, with grades 1-5.

And Over and Unders, too. A good American O/U with trap versions, SC versions, and hunting versions, starting under $1000 would really make a splash.

Even if you CAN compete with Mossberg and Remington for the low-end pump market, how much can you really make on a $250 gun anyway? But it should be easy to sell a good gun that people like, for less than Beretta and Browning.

MCgunner
February 28, 2006, 07:04 PM
I own a mossberg 500, have owned a wingmaster and have shot an Ithaca M37 featherweight in 16 gauge. It was in my youth, an uncle's gun. I hunted ducks with it (well before steel shot) and it was about the smoothest pump I've ever used. I loved the thing. Whether I'd pay big money for one is another thing. I don't need it, have an autochunker and the Mossy, but I sure would LIKE to have an Ithaca and would be nice if it were a 16, though I think I'd either get the 20 or yet another 12 due to the fact that 16 is about dead and you pay out the nose for ammo and you can't get anything in steel to my knowledge in the gauge.

ArmedBear
February 28, 2006, 07:25 PM
16 is back and readily available from places like Cabela's.

Remington even makes steel shotshells in 16, available from Cabela's for the same price as 12 or 20.

Upland loads are relatively easy to find. Remington is producing new Wingmasters and 1100s in 16 Gauge, too.

16 Gauge is not exactly the ammo you'll find the most of, but it's often seen at my local Wal-Mart, even.

What seems to be really coming back, though, is 28.

Larry Ashcraft
February 28, 2006, 07:35 PM
If they can make a gun that is priced like a Huglu or Baikal, solidly built and has better fit and finish and ergos, they should be good sellers.
I agree with Mike. Something like a Savage 311 would be nice, and should sell well. The old Ithaca SXS's were nice enough guns (can't believe I turned one down for $150, quite a few years ago).

kudu
February 28, 2006, 08:55 PM
I agree with others, a nice trap gun, a decent SxS, preferrably in sub gauges which seem to be selling fast, and possibly an O/U maybe that interchanges with the trap gun. This is where they could get into the customer's pockets. I would dearly love to have a decent SxS that was under $1000 that wasn't a Huglu. Now I like my Huglu, but I would buy American if it was as nice and within 10% of the cost of an import.

MCgunner
February 28, 2006, 09:36 PM
16 is back and readily available from places like Cabela's.

Remington even makes steel shotshells in 16, available from Cabela's for the same price as 12 or 20.

Upland loads are relatively easy to find. Remington is producing new Wingmasters and 1100s in 16 Gauge, too.

16 Gauge is not exactly the ammo you'll find the most of, but it's often seen at my local Wal-Mart, even.

What seems to be really coming back, though, is 28.

Wow, good to know! I always really liked the 16 and still have an old single barrel in 16. Mmmm, maybe, just maybe....:D

The Real Hawkeye
February 28, 2006, 10:06 PM
I've owned a coulpe of 37s over the last 30 years or so. Still have one of them I bought about 25 years ago. It's the only pump shotgun I'd ever bother with. Got to love the John Browning designed guns.

Blue Jays
February 28, 2006, 11:48 PM
Hi All- Tactical pump gun - with ghostring sights, magazine extension, a 18.5" bbl and Piccatinny rails
Shorter version of the above - including a modular "system" like the Remington MCS
Auto & Burgler - with specific instructions on their site describing how to apply for federal stamps to legally own Count me as a new customer if/when this shotgun is produced. The legendary ambidextrous Model 37 with bottom loading/ejection would be fantastic with weatherproof stock, premium-quality steel, and modern defensive sights. Build it and they will come!

~ Blue Jays ~

Coronach
March 1, 2006, 01:39 AM
I dunno. I see that more as a niche than as a growth market. Will they sell some? Yep. Would they sell enough to justify the cost of setup when they are small and really need to grow? I dunno. I think they'd be better off running with SXS and O/U guns, provided they can make a quality gun at the right price point.Coronach or anyone else who knows...

If a Wingmaster -- American made, top quality, walnut stocked and nicely polished -- is under $500 and a nice second barrel for it is under $200, is there any reason why the new Ithaca, with modern machinery and engineering know-how, couldn't reproduce the field grade Ithaca SxS for $750 retail?

What a nice-balancing gun!Be aware, I know next to nothing about how much it costs to make guns, or what sorts of things they can reasonably do...I only know that:

A. Low end pump guns and police shotguns are bad deals. Rem and Moss have the market locked up, and LE agencies are not buying shotguns like they used to do. If they do decide to tackle this market, they better have their ducks in a row, being able to make something significantly better for the sam price, or something similar for a significantly less.

B. There is a real gap in the trap/skeet/clay/field market, with austere guns at one end, fancypants guns at the other, and a real area for growth in between. Especially, a place for a nice, well-built, American made gun at a modest price.

The question with B is whether or not it is profitable to make such a thing...the guns are expensive because they require hand-fitting, and the imported guns are built using cheaper labor. Can it be done? I dunno. If it can be done, though, they'll sell. An Ithaca field grade SXS for $750 would be a must-buy for me.

Mike

ArmedBear
March 1, 2006, 03:01 PM
The real question is most likely, can hand fitting be replaced by high-quality CNC machining?

I'd guess that the answer is yes. If I can buy bags of parts from multiple vendors, screw them all together in the morning on the kitchen table, and go shoot my new AR-15 in the afternoon, then it would sure seem to me that a field-grade SxS could be built so that it would fit together. In theory, anyway, SxS actions are easier to fit than O/U guns.

Can enough guns be sold to recoup the investment in machinery, though? Perhaps THAT is the real question.

Side question to ponder re Winchester's Select guns... They're pretty nice, IMO, at a pretty decent price. And Belgian labor costs can hardly be cheap.

huntsman
March 1, 2006, 03:04 PM
If a Wingmaster -- American made, top quality, walnut stocked and nicely polished -- is under $500 and a nice second barrel for it is under $200, is there any reason why the new Ithaca, with modern machinery and engineering know-how, couldn't reproduce the field grade Ithaca SxS for $750 retail?


you'll never see an american made SXS for $750. for that matter ruger has told us you'll probilly never see one below $1800. I'd say the biggest cost on a double is barrel regulation,maybe simpler with the mono-block but I believe there's still a bit of hand work involved. I believe Ruger has set the bar on cost of both US made sxs and o/u to get the prices cheaper you'll need real competion and the market to suport it.The only way you''ll get that is through GOV regulation (total ban on pumps/autos).

ArmedBear
March 1, 2006, 03:39 PM
ruger has told us you'll probilly never see one below $1800

Are you sure Ruger didn't just say "you'll probably never see one?"

Coronach
March 1, 2006, 03:57 PM
you'll never see an american made SXS for $750. for that matter ruger has told us you'll probilly never see one below $1800. I'd say the biggest cost on a double is barrel regulation,maybe simpler with the mono-block but I believe there's still a bit of hand work involved. I believe Ruger has set the bar on cost of both US made sxs and o/u to get the prices cheaper you'll need real competion and the market to suport it.The only way you''ll get that is through GOV regulation (total ban on pumps/autos).I'd say that the market is there, though how large that market might be is certainly unclear. Judging by how well Baikal, Huglu, etc are selling it could hardly be said to require government intervention to create it. ;)

The point about cost of manufacturing, however, is potentially correct. If Ithaca, with presumably new CNC tooling, could find a way to hit the price point and maintain quality, I think they'd do fine. The question is whether or not that is possible. The mere fact that one company says it can't be done is not necessarily an indication that it is true (especially when saying so also shores up their own market position. Ahem.).

Mike ;)

ArmedBear
March 1, 2006, 04:10 PM
The government regulation to drive double shotgun sales already exists in the form of 3-shot limits for hunting.

And competitive shotgun sports have embraced break-open shotguns almost universally, with some semiautos doing well too.

A lot of the 20th century trapshooting records were set or broken by some really good shooters with 870 or Model 12 pumps. I doubt we'll see that again, despite the fact that both of these pumps can make excellent trap guns. The good shooters just aren't using them.

ArmedBear
March 1, 2006, 04:19 PM
The mere fact that one company says it can't be done is not necessarily an indication that it is true (especially when saying so also shores up their own market position. Ahem.).

LOL

And when the company is Ruger, selling a $2000 side-by-side that is, well, sort of "plain" then trying to get people to spend thousands more to have it gussied up. I guess it's not bad looking for a Ruger, though.:p

And really, do skilled Italians and Belgians work so cheaply, especially at current exchange rates of 1.2 Euros to the dollar? This will change, probably, as Europe spirals downward, but for now, European goods are expensive. And the EU has lots of environmental regulations, worker safety regulations, vacation time, etc., etc. It's not the third world. And you can get your fill of nice Winchesters and various Italian guns for under 2 grand.

Slater
March 1, 2006, 05:58 PM
I'm sure the Chinese will make you all the SxS's you want for about $1.50 each. Engraving will run you another .25 :D

ArmedBear
March 1, 2006, 06:57 PM
I'm thinking that, if the Europeans can do it, Americans can, too.

I question whether Ruger's forte (investment casting in steel and excellent guns that are reasonably priced and built like tanks) transfers well to side-by-side shotguns. I own a few Rugers and will be getting more. And their prices are highly competitive with price-point gunmakers like Taurus. I have yet to see a Ruger handgun that I didn't consider a better deal -- and more trustworthy over the long haul -- than a similar Taurus, all things considered.

So I'm not just generally dissing Ruger (except that IMAO their lever actions are stylistic abortions -- I know, they're meant for the Australian market, but still).

The problem could be that what makes a company good at building reasonable, bulletproof pistols and revolvers, popular semiauto carbines, and reliable hunting rifles in every caliber imaginable might not be what you need if you want to build a good SxS at a good price.

And we might never know, because of their self-fulfilling prophecy. At $2000 and up, there won't be a big market, so there won't be a lot of domestic competition, there won't be much production volume, there won't be any manufacturing innovation, etc.

huntsman
March 2, 2006, 01:17 AM
And really, do skilled Italians and Belgians work so cheaply, especially at current exchange rates of 1.2 Euros to the dollar? This will change, probably, as Europe spirals downward, but for now, European goods are expensive.

the secret to the lower grade italian and spanish guns are the small speciality shops.If you ever compare the old american/arms or armsport or other cheaper italian o/u you'll see same stocks,tubes,frames.they have small shops that specialize on certain parts instead of many different companies making the same parts.

The government regulation to drive double shotgun sales already exists in the form of 3-shot limits for hunting.

that's a good point I had forgot ohio just did this a few years ago.

bottom line unless things really change in the manufacturing sector and the habits of the gun buying public I doubt we'll see higher volume production sxs like in the past.
for what it worth: I think the gold label was to Bill Ruger what the model 21 was to Olin,It was said that winchester lost money on every production made 21. I think ruger was going to put out the gold label, reguardless of the manufacturing costs.We will see how much longer it will last or stay under $2000.

BloodyRAzorBlades
March 2, 2006, 01:23 AM
Thats awesome, i like their 37 shotgun, i just wish they could go back to making the m1911 like the ones they did in the 40's that would be nice:rolleyes: :D

Wags
March 2, 2006, 07:56 AM
The government regulation to drive double shotgun sales already exists in the form of 3-shot limits for hunting.


I believe in here in Ohio a 3 shot limit (plugged shotgun) is only neccessary for deer and waterfowl (ducks/goose) season? Check your state laws before you pull the plug.

huntsman
March 2, 2006, 12:41 PM
I believe in here in Ohio a 3 shot limit (plugged shotgun) is only neccessary for deer and waterfowl (ducks/goose) season? Check your state laws before you pull the plug. yep and they were the only reasons for more than 3 shots.

ArmedBear
March 2, 2006, 03:36 PM
A lot of states (mine included) have made 3-shot rules for everything, even turkey.

And our dove hunting can be a combat zone; I think that the rationale was that experienced hunters would kill birds too fast with more rounds, and inexperienced hunters are dangerous enough with 3.:)

As far as modern machinery being able to produce a decent SxS, here's something to consider.

I bought a new .30-06 Howa bolt action, sold by Weatherby in a walnut stock. I believe that is a Japanese barreled action in an American wood stock. I put on some American Warne mounts and QD rings that I mail-ordered, and mounted a Burris Fullfield II scope made in the Philippines, mail-ordered from somewhere else. After screwing all this stuff together (total price of all of it around $700), I did a quick bore-sighting (put it on some sandbags and took the bolt out and looked through the bore and the scope). I didn't even have to move the scope knobs.

I stuck some American Remington ammo in it (this is the 4th company and third country involved in this rifle) and it was already sighted-in well enough to hunt deer at 100 yards, with no adjustment at all. A few clicks, and I was shooting in the 10 ring at 100 yards. When I tried a different bullet weight, it made more difference than the sighting in I needed to do.

So, I can spend $700 total on a rifle and scope from three companies and three countries, and put ammo in it from a fourth company, and have it shoot just over 1 MOA and hit within a few inches of center at 100 yards with no adjustment and no tools but the wrench that came with the Warnes. This rifle has a nice blue finish and a nice Weatherby-style walnut stock with deep cut checkering, a rosewood cap and a good recoil pad.

And you don't think that modern manufacturing methods, tight tolerances and creative engineering could make a basic functional hunting double gun for $750 in America because the shotgun barrels couldn't be regulated without extensive hand fitting?

HORSECRAP!

If you build something the right way, to tight tolerances, you don't have to fit much, if anything. Why would shotguns be the only thing in the world that can't be built this way?

huntsman
March 2, 2006, 07:14 PM
And you don't think that modern manufacturing methods, tight tolerances and creative engineering could make a basic functional hunting double gun for $750 in America because the shotgun barrels couldn't be regulated without extensive hand fitting?

HORSECRAP!

If you build something the right way, to tight tolerances, you don't have to fit much, if anything. Why would shotguns be the only thing in the world that can't be built this way?

I don't think machining tight tolerances are the issue, it's attaching two tubes together either by brazing or soidered. Keeping the bores set at the proper angle to intersect at 50 yards (I think)and keeping chambers and bores concentric and other things I don't even know of.I've always been amazed they built them so well back in the day,must of had workers who really new their jobs.
Sorry for the thread drift, let's all hope Ithaca will propser and maybe bring back a new NID for less than a thou.

ArmedBear
March 2, 2006, 07:31 PM
I don't think machining tight tolerances are the issue, it's attaching two tubes together either by brazing or soidered. Keeping the bores set at the proper angle to intersect at 50 yards (I think)and keeping chambers and bores concentric and other things I don't even know of.I've always been amazed they built them so well back in the day,must of had workers who really new their jobs.

My dad was one of those people. He didn't work on guns, but he was a skilled tool and die maker before the machines did a lot of work for you. He can still do it, and braze and solder, too. He got into plastics and engineering. He last big project before retirement was pop-out eyeglass lenses. He was the first to make them come out ready-to-use, no grinding necessary. This couldn't be done, until one day, with a lot of ingenuity and investment, it could. Now it's relatively common.

Barrels can be held by machine more easily than by hand. Choice of materials and design are important. What's a big deal, really, is building the machine. THAT can be very expensive. But that's the point of tight tolerances. If you build the parts right, they just go together. If the rifle as an assembly of standardized parts can shoot within a few MOA with no adjustment, then the shotgun certainly can, too, especially if all the parts are made or selected by a single manufacturer.

MCgunner
March 2, 2006, 08:27 PM
The legendary ambidextrous Model 37 with bottom loading/ejection would be fantastic with weatherproof stock,

IIRC, in one of Ithaca's rebirths, they got cheap and put a cross bolt safety behind the trigger. I shoot lefty, too, and prefer the tang safety. If you want that, the Browning BPS is for you. I still want one, just can't get past the price. :what:

pauli
March 2, 2006, 09:38 PM
yeah, crossbolt safeties and slide release location are way, way more of an ambi issue than which direction empties eject to.

i would like a bps... but not for retail!

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