[kid_couteau]

Hi Folks

How is everyone today?:)

I have a rather strange question.

Many people speak how the AR-15 is so good for fighting and so good for defense.

I just got mine a bit ago and what I would like to know is how good will it be for survival hunting?

See I do not intend to get into firefights and the like. I figure I will have to hunt for game with the possiblity of defense being a necessity.

So I ask you this: Will the 223 round be able to take squirrels with out decimating them and will it with proper load and placement take whitetail deer?

I figure moose is a bit too much for it.

Take care
Kid Couteau

[Don't Tread On Me]

Well, in a survival situation, humane kills are not necessary. Although many people claim that they hunt with the .223 and drop deer just fine with it.



As for small game - forget it. I don't think there is bullet style or weight that will prevent you from splattering the critters. Unless you can score headshots.

[benEzra]

Definitely overkill for squirrels, unless you use FMJ (which probably wouldn't transfer that much energy to the target since the bullet wouldn't have time to yaw).

Will work OK on deer at close range with precise shot placement, but not a lot of room for error. Is legal for deer hunting in a few states, but most states consider it not powerful enough.

[kid_couteau]

Funny that a cartridge that is not legal for a 150 pound deer is ok for a 150 pound man in war or LEO use

[Hokkmike]

The .223 is legal for deer hunting in PA.

[Don't Tread On Me]

Funny that a cartridge that is not legal for a 150 pound deer is ok for a 150 pound man in war or LEO use

The law has very little to do with reality. Just take a look at all the wonderful gun-control laws we have.



1] Animals are tougher than humans.

2] The legality of it was probably decided at a time, or by the same mentality of a time when the choices for .223 were limited to 55gr.


Perhaps a 77gr load would be better? Maybe good enough to where if it were considered for the first time legally in the ban states, it would be permitted? I don't know. It still might be underpowered. I'm not making any claims, just adding that .223 might be a whole lot better today than it was in 1965. The State finds it easier to just ban a cartridge, rather than specifiy too many details or requirements.


Either way, no one cares about sportsmanship when putting meat on the table is the difference between watching your children starve or not.

[TacticalM4]

Get a pellet gun or .22 for squirrels... AR would be fine for small game like coons, larger rabbits, and possums.

[pauli]

Funny that a cartridge that is not legal for a 150 pound deer is ok for a 150 pound man in war or LEO usedeer are game. humans are varmints.

[Lobotomy Boy]

I'm going to try .223 on wild hogs this spring and see how that goes. I may end up using a bigger caliber. We'll see.

[The Infidel]

I have used .223 on javelina. It worked just fine.

[Turk]

The AR-15 can be used in a survival situation one for self defense (rifle better than a handgun) and for hunting wildlife for food with proper ammunition. I’m not an advocate of using the 223 for deer but in a survival situation in need of food I’d use it on a moose. Concerning small game. A FMJ (I’m talking M-193 ball as this is my experienced with) hitting an squirrel/rabbit with take it apart. I once saw a chicken hit with M-16A1 had the head, wings and legs left. A FMJ bullet can be as effective as a spire point if driven at a high velocity. In addition the M-193 fired from a 1-14 or 1-12 twist barrel M-16/M16A! goes unstable real quick once it hits medium and then fractures at the canulure. Once the velocity drops it becomes less effective. Compare wound channel from and 30/06 and a 300 Winchester Magnum using the same bullet. Years ago I hunted squirrel with a SP1 shooting 55 gr. FMJ loaded down to 22 LR velocities. I had one small hole in one small hole out. Actually a 22 LRHP makes a bigger hole. Comparing a man to a deer being hit. I bet on the deer staying up longer than a man. If I were to use a AR for the above senerio I'd have most of the rounds for defense and a few heavy bullets for deer and some low end for small game.

Have a good day.

Turk

Remember to pray for our troops.

3-2-06 I changed my type O in barrel twist should of been 1-14" twist not 1-11"

[colt.45]

the only way you could eat a squirrel shot with .223 is if you licked it off the tree it was on.

.223 is good for anything from rabbits to whitetail. i think if you can pull the triger real fast it might be good for bear protection too:neener:

but yes an ar-15 would make a great survival gun, its easy to carry, powerful enough for game, cheap and light ammo and accurate

[MechAg94]

For squirrels, just make sure you hit them in the head, not the body. There a lot of those dumb tree squirrels around here so you don't really have to shoot from a distance. .223 is still overkill though.

For extra SHTF preparation, it would be very inexpensive to pick up a single shot .22 LR that is much quieter than a .223 and much better suited to small game. Get one that will also shoot .22 short cartridges as they are even quieter. Stocking up on a few thousand rounds is cheap. You don't really need a semi-auto .22 IMHO. A single shot that forces you to slow down your rate of fire is much better for making careful accurate shots.
IMHO, a quiet gun like that would be worth it's weight in gold if you were hunting in a SHTF survival situation. It may also be light enough to carry it and the AR.

I have a little Savage Model 72 that is an easy gun to shoot and learn on. It is also fairly quiet. Subsonic .22 shorts or those "primer only" rounds are very quiet. As an aside, my Dad said he used to hunt raccoons in Mississippi as a kid with a High Standard HD Military .22 LR pistol. He still has it.

[TeachMe]

You could always buy a dedicated .22lr upper for the small game. There are conversions which use the .223 upper, but from my understanding (no personal experience) they are lacking in accuracy and can foul the upper easily. Otherwise, I believe an AR-15 would be a good survival weapon based on:

availability of ammunition
capable of defense if necessary
lightweight
looks cool (not necessary for survival, but it's a nice plus :D )

[kid_couteau]

Hi All

Well I guess if I toss my M6 Springfield 22 over 410 in my BOB I will be set :)

Thanks
Kid

[lawson]

it would work for small game like raccoons, muskrat, feral pigs, javelina, coyote, etc. it will drop a deer with a head shot.

don't waste ammo on squirrels in a survival situation, just pack a roll of snare wire.

[riomedinamike]

I personally have taken about 9-10 deer with a .223; my son took his first five deer with an AR-15. I have a nice single shot NEC Handi-Rifle in .223 that I let the first-time youngsters use. I have limited myself to close shots of less than 200 yards with a broadside shot, and I do use premium .223 bullets in handloads - they typically will give better penetration because they hold together better than a 55 grain FMJ, and I like a hole going in and a bigger hole going out the other side. I usually load up a Nosler Partition, but sometimes put in a 53 grain Barnes X-Bullet. Barnes does have a relatively new X-bullet around 70 grains or so that I'd like to try out. You do need a faster twist barrel to stabilize the heavier round.

Everyone else's comments about a .223 on small game are correct - you usually have just a big red spot where the critter used to be. Get a 22 pistol or rifle, or a 22 conversion for the AR-15 for the smaller game.

In my opinion a 308 is better for hunting deer-sized game, and if you're in a survival situation I would assume you're hunting because you're hungry, and the last thing anyone would want to do is trail a deer for a long time because the angle was less than ideal and the 223 for whatever reason didn't get the job done.

The bottom line is if I needed food, and all I had was an AR-15, I'd sneak in as close as I could and take the shot, and keep shooting until it went down.

[Turk]

Riomedinamike,

Your post: but sometimes put in a 53 grain Barnes X-Bullet.

Have you ever recovered any of these bullets? I would think they would pass through but it would be interesting to see what expansion and retained wt. the bullet has.

Thanks,

Turk


Remember to pray for our troops.

[High Planes Drifter]

As mentioned above, you could use a .22lr upper for the small critters. Another consideration is to pack along a 7.62x39 upper to use on deer sized game. Uppers are fairly light to carry, and you wouldnt need but one mag each for the 22 and 7.62 scince you would only be using it to hunt. This would give you a very well rounded survival pack.

[kid_couteau]

I can understand the concept of carrying a different upper for game but it seems that if you are going to go to the trouble to do that why not just carry a Youth model NEF shotgun in 20 gauge also?

Please dont take me wrong. These are good ideas and I am not trying to belittle them but a couple of reasons I went with an AR type carbine is because 7.62x39 is getting hard to find. (that and I did not have an AR:) )

I have many fine firearms for hunting but I am seeking one that will do almost everything. I know I know no one gun does it all:)

Did they ever make a shotgun attachment for an AR like the grenade launcher?

Kid

[rangerruck]

for the teeeny, use either a winch 45 grn varmint round or a 5 grn fmj. for bigger stuff if you have a 1/9 twist, you can use up to about a 70 grn bullet accurately. if you have a 1/8 twist you can use up to the 79 grn bullets.

[Brian Williams]

Call me a cowboy or not, but a good number of folks survived for many years with just a Pennsylvania Rifle, or a Hawken, or even an 1866 or '73 or '94. I would not take an AR and a couple of uppers in a survival situation. I believe in the less is more philosophy in hauling junk around in the boonies. If I had my druthers I would use a Marlin 1894c, but would more likely take my Marlin 39M or my Colt Woodsman.

An AR is not a great survival tool. The 223 is what many gun folks a good varmit cartridge and the AR is "semi"-finicky in how it handles abuse.

SHTF or TEOTWAWKI is a totally different weapon need.

[Turk]

Brian,

The post asked if an AR could make a good survival weapon. I believe it could. Concerning being ”semi-finicky in how it handles abuse” My experience shows me different. Concerning Penn/Ky, Hawken rifles, I have both but would not be my choice. If I were going into the wildness for a long term stay my choice (long gun) would be my Browning A-5 12 ga. with an assortment of slugs, 4 buck and 5 shot shells. I do agree with you concerning the Marlin it's a good gun to pick.

Turk

Remember to pray for our troops.

[Sungun09]

the first rule of Hunting for survival is have a gun. The rest is details