"Knocking Out The Moros" This month in "Gun World" by Jan Libourel. Don't miss


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BHP9
April 15, 2003, 07:01 PM
It was a little to late to vindicate my recent post about the Thompson tests in which I was attacked with a ferver by .45 loves that went way beyond religious fanatacism but Jan Libourel states in this very interesting article that----------------------

.That nothing performed very well in these tests, and certainly the big bore revolver calibers did not particularly outperform the smaller calibers. The best "stop" ironically came from the .30 Luger.

He also states that the 30/40 Kraig was a poor stopper and that the 30-06 did do better in the war when it was used in place of the 30/40 Kraig.

Jan also sights the 1983 Gun Digest Study that claimed----------

From Jan Libourel: Numerous cases of American soldiers' being hacked to pieces by Moros' that had been filled full of .45 slugs occured. Things were little, if any, bettter than when troops were armed with 38's. The best stopper of all was the Winchester model 1897 shotgun loaded with buckshot, and these saw a fair amount of service.

Unfortunately out of all the Gun Digests that I have I do not have a copy of the 1983 issue. It would have been interesting to review some of the info that I remember reading about the Thompson tests when I read about it back then.


This is only a small part of Jan's article this month and now do not attack me but attack Jan ,he wrote it this month not I. So save the flames for him.

But I will say this much I do agree with much of what he says. Unlike other gun writers, with good old" Chucky "at the top of the list I find Jan's level headed articles a lot more relevant and believable than other gun writers of today.

If you enjoyed reading about ""Knocking Out The Moros" This month in "Gun World" by Jan Libourel. Don't miss" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
DeltaElite
April 15, 2003, 08:02 PM
Yawn :rolleyes:

DeltaElite
April 15, 2003, 08:07 PM
If I tell you 9mm is the best, will you go away? :neener:

Tamara
April 15, 2003, 08:11 PM
Jan Libourel... snicker :D

Carry on, man...

care-less
April 15, 2003, 08:12 PM
The 45 was pushed down everyones throats back then by the old timers who grew up on the frontier; and were then in charge in the army. The same thing happened with the small caliber assault rifle. The "old" timers wanted to keep the 30 cal, so we ended up with the obsolete M14. It has always been that way! Even back in 1873, many wanted nothing less than the 54 cal! By the way, during the Korean war, it was reported that the 9mm did much better during the winter months than the 45; the 45 did better during the summer when the chinese were not wearing heavy quilted uniforms. It is more a matter of penetration than anything else when it comes to handgun ammo.:) Use what you want, they all work; in the right place, and deep enough!

DeltaElite
April 15, 2003, 08:16 PM
You are correct care-less, that is why the 10mm trumps the 9mm and the 45acp. :D

Al Thompson
April 15, 2003, 11:14 PM
Hmmmmmm....... Isn't that the Dutch guy who thinks gun control is OK? Yep. OK, carry on....

triggertime
April 15, 2003, 11:24 PM
Yep. That's the guy...aka Jan Liberal...guffaw

CZF
April 16, 2003, 12:18 AM
Interesting. Seems that another bottlenecked cartridge is also
a good stopper. The .357 SIG and it's "Lightning Bolt" effect.
Texas DPS (among other agencies) appears to be very happy with it.

I also would choose my Shotgun over any other firearm
if i was to go in Harm's Way in an urban setting.

Beretta 1201 FP

IN 12 Guage We Trust!

cratz2
April 16, 2003, 02:19 AM
I thought everyone already knew that the 45ACP saved the day in the Philippines ? Just like the .30 Luger did as well as the 45ACP did in the T-L tests? :rolleyes:

BigG
April 16, 2003, 09:56 AM
Cratz, it was 45 COLT in the 1873 Peacemaker that was issued in the PI as an emergency stopgap, iirc.

30 Luger did not do as well as 45 in the Thompson/Lagarde tests, except it was hell on head shots.

The Soviets proved 30 caliber (7.62 x 25) was a good killer as they used it many times to shoot their victims in the back of the head at close range. Quite a few million of them, iirc. :uhoh:

care-less
April 16, 2003, 03:43 PM
DeltaElite, I totally agree on the 10mm, excellent cartridge; I wish they would load to original specs.:)

cratz2
April 16, 2003, 06:27 PM
I know BigG... I was just poking fun at the previous thread concerning the 45ACPs so-called ineffectiveness during testing before it was introduced. ;)

BHP9
April 16, 2003, 06:44 PM
Cratz, it was 45 COLT in the 1873 Peacemaker that was issued in the PI as an emergency stopgap, iirc.

Actually that is not quite correct. According to the Gun World article the Phillipean insurrection went on for a number of years and the Colt 1911 was issued against the Moros at the tail end of the conflict. And again supposedly did no better than the .45 revolver or the 38 revolvers that were used. The conflict was still going on as late as 1913. Again I quote from Gun World,.

Blueduck
April 16, 2003, 07:47 PM
Lets not forget the ".38" used against the Moro's was not even equal to the lightest 38 special target loads.

What we learned from the Moro's: .36 caliber round nosed lead rounds driven to a low velocity from a handgun do not reliably stop drugged or crazed attackers immediatly.

What we learned in all the intervening years: Handgun rounds do not reliably stop drugged or crazed attackers immediatly.



:scrutiny:

Dr.Rob
April 17, 2003, 06:14 AM
Everyone KNOWS the army sent a bunch of 1873 and 1878 .45 Colts to the Phillipines. (heck there is an 1878 called the "Phillipine model) the reason WHY may have been exaggerated over the years, but its also true that the 38 Colt was an anemic cartridge.

Mute
April 17, 2003, 06:07 PM
Unlike other gun writers, with good old" Chucky "at the top of the list I find Jan's level headed articles a lot more relevant and believable than other gun writers of today.

Wow! This is the cream of the crop. If we can get David Hackworth to join this chorus, who'd dare to question the conclusions? :rolleyes:

jc2
April 17, 2003, 09:10 PM
He probably like Duane Thomas and Ed Sanow--talk about "Send in the Clowns!"

Once his mind is made ol' Jan never lets the facts confuse him.

buttrap
April 18, 2003, 01:18 AM
Well on the odd side it was the .30 luger round that did the only chest shot kill in the T-L tests. How odd....

blades67
April 18, 2003, 01:26 AM
The best stopper of all was the Winchester model 1897 shotgun loaded with buckshot, and these saw a fair amount of service.

:what: A shotgun was more effective than a handgun?! Do the gunrag hacks know about this?:rolleyes:

Kentucky Rifle
April 19, 2003, 01:39 PM
...however, weren't those Moros all hopped up on some durg, PLUS had their "'nads" all tied up in hard "Granny knots" besides? There's a great reason right there to want to get the battle over in a hurry! Hack up the opposition and then hack those Granny knots off the ol' nads. :)

KR

jc2
April 19, 2003, 08:38 PM
Two nations had extensive experience with frontier warfare/colonial during the late 19th and early 20th century--the United States and Britain. Both nations stuck with large, relatively slow moving bullets in their handguns based on their experience with the same (at the same time they did move to fast, small moving bullets in their rifles).

To state "the 45 was pushed down everyones throats back then by the old timers who grew up on the frontier; and were then in charge in the army," certainly either misrepresents (or represents a misunderstanding of) the history of the period. Don't forget, those same "old timers" also adopted the the .30-40 Krag (a "foreign" bolt action rifle) and then the .30-06 (and later adopted the first autoloading rifle adopted by any military--years ahead of the "competition".) In fact, those "old timers" adopted a very modern autoloading handgun in 1911--sounds kind of forward thinking to me, doesn't it to you?

The T-L Tests were an attempt to "scientifically" pick the best round at a time when the handgun still played a significant role. It wasn't perfect, but it did work (certainly as well as most other "scientific" methods--and a heck of a lot better than some more "modern" methods like the RII). With state of bullet development at the time (don't forget, most of the progress in bullet design has occurred in the last ten to fifteen years), they picked a good round--and if all of a sudden, we really had to depend on handguns again, and all you had was a choice of FMJ or FMJ, you'd probably see a whole lot of .45s in holsters.

cratz2
April 19, 2003, 10:33 PM
Libourel and Thomas are without a doubt, the absolute worst trashiest writers I've read. Thomas changes his mind every other issue and it's really hard to respect that. Would you take advice from someone that just found their dream gun 2 months ago? I did enjoy his shoot-offs comparing SA to DA, snub 38 to little 380 and custom guns to stock ones. But I sure would hate to rely on either of them to actually guide me through a decision.

If either of them worked in a gunshop, we'd all make fun of them behind their backs but since they're published, some poor misguided folks give them credence they've never earned.

Byron Quick
April 25, 2003, 06:05 PM
Two nations had extensive experience with frontier warfare/colonial during the late 19th and early 20th century--the United States and Britain

You might want to check out the imperial expansion of the Russian Empire during the 19th century...

Handy
April 25, 2003, 06:32 PM
BHP9,

You didn't get attacked by ".45 loves". You were attacked for using poor examples and faulty logic.


And using too much bold print.

jc2
April 25, 2003, 07:04 PM
You might want to check out the imperial expansion of the Russian Empire during the 19th century...
I probably not as familiar with Russian history as I should be, and I forgot all about them. They settled on the .44 Russian (roughly equivalent to the .44 Special), didn't they?

billcameron
April 25, 2003, 10:46 PM
I read an article recently that stated the army organized soldiers into two man teams- one member with rifle, other member with pump shotgun loaded with OO buck. Stated they were very successful with this combo. I suspect once they adopted this tactic no one really did much shooting with pistol of any kind.

zxc
April 26, 2003, 12:11 AM
much ado about nothing-if your land is taken over, your wife and kids sanitized by big white foreign men-youd go bananas ..we hope. 400yrs before the American boys the Spaniards got the same treatment. there was no TV back then.

Byron Quick
April 26, 2003, 12:35 AM
much ado about nothing-if your land is taken over, your wife and kids sanitized by big white foreign men-youd go bananas ..we hope. 400yrs before the American boys the Spaniards got the same treatment. there was no TV back then.

Yeah, that's why the US has such large haciendas in the Phillipines...because we conquered them and took their land:rolleyes:

guy sajer
April 28, 2003, 08:08 PM
No offense to any Phillipino THR members .

mon1911
April 28, 2003, 11:39 PM
"Lets not forget the ".38" used against the Moro's was not even equal to the lightest 38 special target loads.

What we learned from the Moro's: .36 caliber round nosed lead rounds driven to a low velocity from a handgun do not reliably stop drugged or crazed attackers immediatly.

What we learned in all the intervening years: Handgun rounds do not reliably stop drugged or crazed attackers immediatly. "

Blueduck, you've got my vote and respect!

zxc
April 28, 2003, 11:47 PM
yeah haciendas--lets see American owned/run-Sime Darby, DelMonte, Dole, Subic Bay...dont forget we dont meddle with small fries. Welcome to the NWO>

jc2
April 29, 2003, 07:22 AM
They sure were glad to see us back after a few years living with the Japanese, weren't they?

BigG
April 29, 2003, 09:25 AM
[Moros] ...had their "'nads" all tied up in hard "Granny knots" ...

:eek: Yeouch!!

ElAlumno
April 29, 2003, 06:49 PM
People actually read the gun rags and believe them?!?!:neener:

Kinda reminds me of when Chuck Taylor did and honest, no holds bared comparison/shootoff between handguns and SMGs.

:rolleyes:

Duane Thomas
October 13, 2006, 12:17 AM
He probably like Duane Thomas and Ed Sanow--talk about "Send in the Clowns!"

How so?

Duane Thomas
October 13, 2006, 12:25 AM
Libourel and Thomas are without a doubt, the absolute worst trashiest writers I've read.

How so?

Thomas changes his mind every other issue and it's really hard to respect that.

Could you give me examples?

Would you take advice from someone that just found their dream gun 2 months ago?

Maybe not, but I don't remember doing that. I do try to keep my mind open, and if I find a better way - or a better gun - I'll start using it.

I did enjoy his shoot-offs comparing SA to DA, snub 38 to little 380 and custom guns to stock ones.

Oh God, those articles. When I first became a writer, I had a bit of pride in coming up with new ideas, not just retreading the same old thing. Then Jan called me up and said, "Okay, I need three articles from you in the next two weeks. And they all have to be shoot-outs between actual guns, you can't just discuss the overall concept. And the three ideas are: Stock Vs. Custom Guns, .380 Auto Vs. .38 Snubbie, and Double Action Vs. Single Action Auto Pistols". At which point I thought, "Ooookay, there goes that whole 'orginality' thing." Talk about stuff that's already been done to death. Did a lot of range time, burned a lot of midnight oil, and actually got all three articles in to deadline. Shudder.

another okie
October 13, 2006, 12:33 AM
I read the memoirs of a young army officer who served against the Moros, and he said the only reliable weapon, and the one he kept near him all the time, was the shotgun with buckshot. He even took it to the toilet with him.

JohnKSa
October 13, 2006, 01:56 AM
Duane,

1. Welcome to The High Road!

2. This thread is 3 years old...the person who posted that hasn't been active on this board for more than a year. ;)

Best Regards,

John

Duane Thomas
May 25, 2007, 11:04 PM
John,

Thanks!

Duane

robertbank
May 25, 2007, 11:20 PM
At this rate I will be dead before this thread gets past page 3.:D

Welcome Duane nice to see you here.

Take Care

Bob

steelhead
May 25, 2007, 11:35 PM
Mental note: Don't use Jan Libourel for any type of reference material. Better to use the ex-Special Forces/SEAL/RANGER/Agent Orange dude that works at the local gun shop for he is far more credible.

Mental note #2: Always check the date of the original post before responding:D.

denfoote
May 26, 2007, 06:03 AM
Ho Hum.
Just another gun rag hack that I thought had perished!!

9x19
May 26, 2007, 06:21 AM
Ho Hum.
Just another gun rag hack that I thought had perished!!


How so? :evil:

Terminal paper cut? :scrutiny:

Rabid carpal-tunnel? :p

Just what did you imagine that put that smile on your face? :D

nemoaz
May 26, 2007, 10:32 AM
The Soviets proved 30 caliber (7.62 x 25) was a good killer as they used it many times to shoot their victims in the back of the head at close range. Quite a few million of them, iirc.

Jimmuh Cartuh told me he doubts this ever occurred. Rosie O'Donnell agreed.

So, I think we all agree that

1) .38 round nose lead at 600 fps sucks;

2) .45 Colt is way better than .38 S&W;

3) .45 ACP is way better than .38 S&W;

4) 12 gauge is always a good thing;

5) Jimmuh Cartuh is still a moron and a disgrace; and

6) We're not even on page 2 yet.

pax
May 26, 2007, 01:26 PM
Wow, serious case of threadja-vu.

You guys really want to talk about this, start a fresh thread. I think some of the original posters have long since moved on.

pax

If you enjoyed reading about ""Knocking Out The Moros" This month in "Gun World" by Jan Libourel. Don't miss" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!