[Drizzt]

Arsenal discovered in city man's house

By Francine Sawyer/Sun Journal Staff


New Bern police checking on a man's welfare found him to be fine -- but found a house full of weapons, according to officers.

The most disturbing discovery in the house, according to police, was a sawed-off shotgun.

Police were quick to point out that the weapons were not connected "whatsoever to any criminal activity."

When neighbors on Newton Drive noticed the front door of Charles Pugh's home ajar, they became concerned for Pugh's welfare and called New Bern police.

Police Chief Frank Palombo said an officer went to Pugh's Newton Drive home around 2 p.m. Thursday, finding the front door ajar.

"The officer knocked on the door. No one answered. The door was open and the officer saw the room to be in disarray. She announced that she was the police. She got no response from anyone in the house. She called for backup, and not knowing if there was a victim or perpetrator in the house, officers made a walk through," he said.

A sawed-off shotgun was in plain view in a back area of the house, according to police. Upon seeing the gun, several officers left for the magistrate's office to secure a search warrant.

Pugh arrived at his home before officer's returned with the search warrant. Police said Pugh gave officers permission to search his home.

Officers put Pugh in the back of a police car parked in front of his house. He watched for the next two hours as police loaded rifles, shotguns, handguns and boxes of ammunition taken from his house into a police van.

Neighbors gathered on the street to watch the event unfold. They said Pugh is a quiet man who keeps to himself.

Pugh's next-door neighbor said no one came or went from the house, and the man lived alone.

Pugh was in the Army 30 years ago and was stationed in Germany, according to an interview he gave to the Sun Journal in connection with a weather story in January.

He gathered each morning at a restaurant on Neuse Boulevard and drank coffee with friends. He was retired from civil service.

Pugh was released from custody late Thursday afternoon. He was not charged with any crime.

Police worked late into the night taking an inventory of the weapons, checking serial numbers and cross checking with the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms.

One officer said that it was not illegal to have any of the weapons except the sawed-off shotgun. "Then you have state and federal laws to deal with," the officer said.

"Mr. Pugh was very cooperative. We released him, and we will continue to investigate. We are keeping the guns and ammunition as a public safety measure for now," the investigator said.

http://www.newbernsunjournal.com/Details.cfm?StoryID=8302

[Standing Wolf]

"Mr. Pugh was very cooperative. We released him, and we will continue to investigate. We are keeping the guns and ammunition as a public safety measure for now," the investigator said.

I predict he'll never see any of his firearms again.

[CZ 75 BD]

is confiscating private property a public safety measure?:scrutiny:

[bbrins]

The most disturbing discovery in the house, according to police, was a sawed-off shotgun.

Police were quick to point out that the weapons were not connected "whatsoever to any criminal activity."

Do they mean to tell us that this evil, deadly "assault weapon" actually didn't jump up out of the corner and turn it's owner into a crazed lunatic that went on a killing spree? See, it ain't the guns afterall.

You're right, he probably will never see any of his guns again.

[Tamara]

We are keeping the guns and ammunition as a public safety measure for now," the investigator said.

Translation: "Even though Taxpayer Unit #1175912 has not been charged with any crime, we're stealing his legal posessions in direct violation of the Constitution. What are you going to do about it, serfs?"

:fire: :fire: :fire:

[tyme]

Pugh was in the Army 30 years ago and was stationed in Germany, according to an interview he gave to the Sun Journal in connection with a weather story in January.

He gathered each morning at a restaurant on Neuse Boulevard and drank coffee with friends. He was retired from civil service.

Here we have an undoubtedly disgruntled potentially psychopathic ex-military man who might be a German or Russian spy (KGB was good at recruiting 30 years ago). His house has a weapon in plain sight that's evil enough to require a federal tax stamp. And he has friends and drinks coffee.

I can't define "terrorist," but I know one when I read about one. :rolleyes:

[Tropical Z]

:cuss:

[Leatherneck]

Officers put Pugh in the back of a police car parked in front of his house. He watched for the next two hours as police loaded rifles, shotguns, handguns and boxes of ammunition taken from his house into a police van. Neighbors gathered on the street to watch the event unfold. They said Pugh is a quiet man who keeps to himself.

Let's see: False Arrest, trespass, theft, defamation, abuse of power....Anything else? :fire:

TC
TFL Survivor

[COHIBA]

he is lucky they didnt bomb him from 30,000 feet. SBS's are considered WMD are they not?
technically they could drop a bunker buster in his den then tear down his mailbox and ride it down main street.

[answerguy]

Somehow the short barrelled shotgun managed to contaminate all the rest of the legal guns. How, exactly, does that work?:confused:

[Dave P]

Every year that goes by, I think less and less of NC. Sorry guys, but a lot of uncalled for firearm events seem to happen there.


Now in this case: neighbors see front door open and call the cops? Why? I would expect my neighbors to just close the door and go on their way, or just leave it alone!

And: "Police said Pugh gave officers permission to search his home." I know they had a warrant, so why ask? And why give permission?

I don't think he will be seeing his arsenal for quite a while
:mad:

[TallPine]

They said Pugh is a quiet man who keeps to himself.

And that is now a crime in this country?????

I keep my doors shut and locked - what does that make me?

[Edward429451]

Upon seeing the gun, several officers left for the magistrate's office to secure a search warrant.

So, being a gun owner is probable cause for a search warrant now?

Lock&load.

[JohnBT]

You guys amaze me with your logic. Police bad, gun owner good. A little too simplistic in my opinion.

Anyone care to bet he hadn't paid the fed tax on the shotgun? If not, he could get ten years for it. That's why they took the guns. If he had the receipt for the payment he should have showed it to them.

Even if he did pay the fee, I'm angry at the guy for giving gunowners a bad name. Not only were his guns not secured, he left the front door open for anyone to walk in take them. Sure, that's his business, but irresponsible nevertheless.

We try to take care of our neighbors around here. I've seen doors standing open from time to time - sometimes they're home and sometimes not. After sticking my head inside and calling out, I've gone home to get the key to lock up after them. I especially try to keep an eye on the elderly ones. My next door neighbor has found 2 dead in roughly 20 years.

John

[Hkmp5sd]

So, being a gun owner is probable cause for a search warrant now?

No. Having an possibly unregistered SBS in view and seen by a LEO through a window is probable cause for a search warrant. If it was registered, he shows them the Form 4 and they go home.

[Selfdfenz]

JohnBT

Since no one quoted the barrel length why would we assume the LEO have the slightest idea what the legal length is or is not. Could the gun not be a legal length but still show evidence of being hacksawed. Don't know. They didn't say.

I wouldn't tar and feather this guy so quickly. "Police bad, gun owner good" is just as much a possibility as the reverse.

Funny,this old guy has ONLY ONE clearly illegal gun out of a house full. I find that strange. Seems like false economy to have only one. Why not 50. Why any! Don't you think that someone with that many guns would be aware of the fact that thsi particular one was illegal and put his others and his freedom at risk. And it was in plain sight....and not hidden?????????? I have know the legal length of a SG barrel for 20 years.
MY BS detector is going off big time.

This guy could be in the wrong. Or.....he could be just another victim of that all too common LE mindset that they are a law unto themselves and there is nothing to keep them from arresting you and taking you property.
Oh you might be released and have the charges dropped and even eventually get you property back AFTER you are a guest of the legal system for who knows how long and it costs you who knows how much. Recon this old retired dude has the $$$ to spend a couple of years in court over this? Doubtful.
If they have charged him, and he doesn't fight and win, his gun owning days are over.
Poor old guy is toast either way. I doubt he will get his stuff back.

If you have a fire at your house, or take a spill coming down the attic stairs and assistance is called for,you have to hope and pray the police aren't part of the response. If they see more that Gramps old 12 ga over the fireplace they might just search your house and take everything you have and let you go pay a lawyer to get it back.
And there guys and gals, but for the grace of God, go you and I.

Poor old guy, poor NC citizens.
When did being quiet and keeping to ones' self become a crime?
S-

[tyme]

(hkmp5sd) No. Having an possibly unregistered SBS in view and seen by a LEO through a window is probable cause for a search warrant. If it was registered, he shows them the Form 4 and they go home.

"Having possibly unsafe wiring in a house that has lights on at night is probable cause for a search warrant. As soon as it's determined the house is safe, the police go home after confiscating all the wiring."

"Having possibly unregistered vehicles in view and seen by a LEO is probable cause for a search warrant. If the vehicle is registered, the police go home after impounding all vehicles at the scene."

"Having prescription drugs, possibly obtained by false prescriptions, seen by LEOs is probable cause for a search warrant. If the prescriptions are valid, the police go home after confiscating all drugs in the house."

If leaving your door open/unlocked is irresponsible because of potential theft of firearms by criminals, what about all those canadians who leave their doors unlocked, somtimes leaving would-be thieves with easy access to deadly hunks of metal capable of travelling at high speed and killing dozens of people in short periods of time?

[TallPine]

And ...

don't the British have to leave their doors unlocked at all times now so that burglars won't possibly hurt themselves breaking in ...?

:neener:

[Nightfall]

Okay, we have a retired US Army guy with firearms. After being released, they decide to keep his legally owned firearms and ammunition for the sake of ‘public safety'. No doubt if he wants his legally owned guns back, he'll have to jump through all kinds of crazy hoops.

As for the sawed off, let's put it this way... if you own multiple vehicles, and one is found to not be legally safe for some reason, is it okay for them to take and keep all of your other ‘legally safe' vehicles?

Public safety indeed... :fire:

[Justin]

You guys amaze me with your logic. Police bad, gun owner good. A little too simplistic in my opinion.

Anyone care to bet he hadn't paid the fed tax on the shotgun? If not, he could get ten years for it.

Care to tell me how a ten-year jail sentence is a logical punishment for failure to pay a $5 tax?:scrutiny:

[Carlos Cabeza]

Most would agree, a SBS is the best HD weapon available. This is a law I cannot see the logic behind. Concealability ? Effectiveness ? It must be the abiblity to conceal, and it's very terminal performance. :rolleyes: But short range limits it's use to only the most CQC. Why do I live in the country? I can leave the door open all day and close the gate at the driveway and people understand. Please, no visitors at this time.

[tyme]

I think the logic behind the law was that organized crime syndicates loved the SBS.

[Hkmp5sd]

tyme,

I agree with you. But at the present time, owning an unregistered SBS is illegal and that does provide the police with justification for a warrant. If someone is going to have an illegal firearm in their home, they should at least have enough sense to not leave it in plain view.

[mercedesrules]

JohnBT said: Anyone care to bet he hadn't paid the fed tax on the shotgun? If not, he could get ten years for it. That's why they took the guns. If he had the receipt for the payment he should have showed it to them.
So...you're for gun control? :confused:

MR

[Geech]

Why is the mere presence of SBS enough for a warrant, though? The guy could easily have the tax stamp. I think there needs to be a lawsuit, whether or not the guy had paid the tax.

[Tamara]

Score one for Geech... :)

(This warrant has the legal consistancy of soggy Charmin...)

[Hkmp5sd]

Why is the mere presence of SBS enough for a warrant, though?

In my opinion, it does not. I believe the proper course of action would be for the LEOs to first contact ATF and see if there was a SBS registered to the owner/resident of the house. ATF requires owners of NFA weapons to keep them updated on where the owner of the weapons lives or where the weapons are securely stored if not at the owner's residence.

Secondly, they could wait for the homeowner to return home and ask to see his Form 4. If he refuses to show them or doesn't have one, then they would have grounds to acquire a warrant and enter his home.

Given that they now believe he has an illegal weapon, then they also now have probable cause to search his home for any other illegal weapons and run the serial numbers of any firearms he possesses.

[Geech]

It was a rhetorical question. I think he can probably get off scot-free with a competant lawyer.

[WonderNine]

"Having an possibly unregistered SBS in view and seen by a LEO through a window is probable cause for a search warrant. - Hkmp5sd"

Really? Enjoy your new police state.

:cuss:

[WonderNine]

"I believe the proper course of action would be for the LEOs to first contact ATF and see if there was a SBS registered to the owner/resident of the house." - Hkmp5sd

I believe the proper course of action would be to go eat some donuts and leave the gun owner the hell alone.

You don't have the PROVE what you own is legal. The burden of proof is not on the citizen, the sooner you realize that the better. That's why America is so great.

[Hkmp5sd]

You don't have the PROVE what you own is legal.

That is a grand thought and one I'm sure that the founding fathers intended when writing the constitution. However, in the country we live in, the laws requires the owner of a NFA firearm to show his documentation when a LEO wants to see them. This is no different than being required to show your CCW license if a LEO notices the gun you're wearing. Of course, you can forgo the CCW and carry based on the 2nd Amendment. I'm sure the LEO would be satisfied by that.

We can jump up and down and quote every constitutional, ethical and moral reason in the world for owning firearms, but in the real world, if you want a SBS, you either acquire it legally and provide documentation when required or you acquire it illegally and risk 10 years at Club-Fed if you get caught.

[hammer4nc]

Interesting how these stories seem to be rorschach tests showing people's overall acceptance of authority. Serfs vs. rebellious outlaws, each group would say of the other.

Being that I live in NC, and just happen to have left for work leaving the door ajar yesterday (what a coincidence, eh?), I thought to measure my HD shotgun: 18" barrel, and 28.25" overall (factory barrel, not cut down). Ah, relief! Yet, losing but a quarter inch of barrel (or a cop with an inaccurate tape measure!), and 2-1/4" of plastic, would send me to the greybar hotel for 10 years...or worse, as Randy Weaver would testify.
You guys amaze me with your logic.

I'm searching for the logic of this particular regulation, in any context whatsoever, and coming up "short"...but stand ready to be persuaded by other serfs...er, members, who seem to be more comfortable, or knowledgeable on matters "logical". I even won't be offended if you call me an "outlaw", for questioning this and other like statutes. Thanks.

[DeltaElite]

Based upon the articles information.
The cops saw an illegal weapon while there on a legitimate check welfare and got an appropriate warrant for the remainder of the residence.
There was no false arrest, he was arrested and placed in a patrol car while the warrant was served.
They decided to release him instead of booking him, while the attornies decided whether or not to press charges, which I am sure they will.

He won't see any of his guns again, since he will be a prohibited possessor for the sawed off shotgun.
He violated the law, whether or not you agree with it, frankly I couldn't care less about a sawed off shotgun, but he knew better and now will pay a price for violating that law.

The cops did nothing wrong and appear to have acted appropriately and within the constraints of the legal system.
If this guy had acted within the constraints of the legal system, we wouldn't even be talking about him.
He chose to violate the law and now he will pay a price for that choice.
Of course it is more fun to blame the cops and try to make the gun owner into a Martyr, but it is not a realistic view of the incident.

I am betting this guy will get probation, prison time for this violation would be a shame.

[WonderNine]

Based upon the articles information.
The cops saw an illegal weapon

A short barreled shotgun is not illegal.

[DeltaElite]

Good point, I stand corrected. :D
However, it won't invalidate the warrant.

[Edward429451]

So is the constitution merely cliche' now? Do we have rights or not? Shall not be infringed. Hmmm, what could that mean? I wanna cut my SG barrel off. They say pay me 5 bucks and we'll let you cut it off and if you don't pay the 5 bucks we lock you up for 10 years. What kind of crap is that? So he didn't pay em the 5 bucks, that don't reasonably give them the right to rape his home and property. I could see giving the guy a fine maybe even holding the SG until he pays. To go further than that with the mans household property is tyranny plain & simple. Run your serial numbers there at the house, if they check out ok, set em back down, give the guy a ticket for the SG, take the SG, and get the heck out of my/his house. Picking up 'extras' on the way out of the house is state sponsored tyranny and theft and should be met with violent resistance.

You guys amaze me with your logic. Police bad, gun owner good. A little too simplistic in my opinion.

Don't over-simplify it. This isn't police bad, LEO bashing, its 'administration bad', where will it end? The poor LEO is kind of in the hotseat though, will they not let them be amicable and reasonable or is it a power trip of individual 'bad apple' officers? 5 freakin dollars. Maybe citizens should be amicable and just pay the 5 bucks and be done with it? Show of good faith. Fine, I would. If they absolutely carved in stone that there would never be any more gun legislation added beyond what is in place, I'd agree and abide by the 'laws' even though (we all) I know what the founding fathers had in mind, and that is 'shall not be infringed' period. But I/we're already amicable in respecting the 'laws' as is. Is it not reasonable to expect a two way street with the good faith & reasonableness? If this wholesale seizure of property is what we can expect from a 5 dollar unpaid fee, where will it end? Time to start thinkin about where to draw the line. Where do you draw your line? If they say everybody with an extended tube on their SG has to pay 5 bucks, will you? No more speedloaders? You gonna toss em out? How bout your last 22 single shot, will you draw the line then? You'll be wishin you drew the line sooner. Its really none of their business if the guy wanted to cut down his SG barrel, he wasn't a criminal. The 'administrative procedure' (??) of wholesale search & seizure for a 5 dollar unpaid fee IS criminal. You guys who're sticking up for them should think this through some more.

Oh but they'll lock me up for 10 years. (they really want your whole life from cradle to grave). Oh but they'll kill me. So what. You still gotta stand up to the criminals no matter what the disguise or uniform. Ladies lay down for the rapist and make it easy for them? I don't think so.

(Rant Off):neener:

[JohnBT]

So...you're for gun control?

MR
__________

No. Your momma might think you're cute, but I don't. Anyone who chooses to ignore the law does so at their own risk and shouldn't go crying about how the law shouldn't be that way. Maybe it shouldn't, but it is.

I'm for reality checks. The law is what it is and the enforcement of it is usually fairly easy to predict. This story falls smack dab in the 'dog bites man' genre - it's not in the least unusual. It is not a 'man bites dog' story if you know what I mean. The dumb guy left his door open and the gun out in plain view - based on what the story has to say.

I'm still amazed at the number of members here who would, it would seem, argue against the law of gravity if it offended their personal view of how the world should work.

The police in this case did what they're paid to do. I'm assuming of course that they didn't see a shotgun with a 28 inch barrel that had been cut down to 24 inches and just decided to call it a sawed-off shotgun. Sawed-off typically means shorter than allowed by law.

I wonder if he made the sawed-off shotgun? Isn't that an additional charge to the one for possession?

I hope it all works out for him.

John

[DeltaElite]

How did you know that I am offended by gravity?
Are you with the Govt?
Where's my tin foil hat? :neener:

[mercedesrules]

(JohnBT)Your momma might think you're cute, but I don't....
I'm still amazed at the number of members here who would, it would seem, argue against the law of gravity if it offended their personal view of how the world should work.

I honestly wondered where you stood on gun control since you seemed to have no problem whatsoever with the laws concerning shotgun barrel length and gun taxation.

If the gun laws are as immutable as the laws of physics, I guess we're wasting our time discussing them. And please, John, leave my late mother out of this.

MR

[tyme]

It must have been in another thread that there was a reference to this law:
http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/Statutes/GeneralStatutes/HTML/BySection/Chapter_14/GS_14-288.8.html
Apparently a tax stamp doesn't cut it. Why he wasn't charged, though, is a mystery, as well as why the rest of his firearms were confiscated. I guess I shouldn't be surprised that failing to pay taxes results in the implied label of "unstable / dangerous / not a good citizen."

Since I'm in the mood to mock other states, here's a survey of other interesting NC laws (only one is firearms related):
http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/Statutes/GeneralStatutes/HTML/BySection/Chapter_14/GS_14-12.7.html (hoods, masks on public ways)
http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/Statutes/GeneralStatutes/HTML/BySection/Chapter_14/GS_14-12.8.html (hoods, masks on public property)
http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/Statutes/GeneralStatutes/HTML/BySection/Chapter_14/GS_14-10.html (secret political and military organizations)
http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/Statutes/GeneralStatutes/HTML/BySection/Chapter_14/GS_14-288.7.html (dangerous weapon carry during civil emergency)
http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/Statutes/GeneralStatutes/HTML/BySection/Chapter_14/GS_14-381.html (flag desecration)
http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/Statutes/GeneralStatutes/HTML/BySection/Chapter_14/GS_14-400.html (tattooing/piercing minors)
http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/Statutes/GeneralStatutes/HTML/BySection/Chapter_14/GS_14-401.5.html (fortune telling)
http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/Statutes/GeneralStatutes/HTML/BySection/Chapter_14/GS_14-401.20.html (cheating drug/alcohol tests)
http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/Statutes/GeneralStatutes/HTML/BySection/Chapter_14/GS_14-402.html (pistol and crossbow permits)
http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/Statutes/GeneralStatutes/HTML/BySection/Chapter_14/GS_14-418.html (handling of poisonous animals)

And I pick as most vague and religiously influenced crime of the week...
http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/Statutes/GeneralStatutes/HTML/BySection/Chapter_14/GS_14-177.html (crimes against nature)

Time to cross NC off the list of places I'm willing to live, but not because of the last crime... :o

[WilderBill]

Ya know, if you leave something of value, like say, a shotgun, out in plain sight, then someone without regarde for private property might just take it.

I personnally don't care what you've got, but could ya'll please not leave it in plain sight where it will irritate or tempt anyone?

[hammer4nc]

Incidentally, the guy has been charged, but has been released on his own recognizance (has to be some redeeming value to North Carolina, right?) Latest update: http://www.newbernsunjournal.com/Details.cfm?StoryID=8390

JohnBT posted:The law is what it is and the enforcement of it is usually fairly easy to predict.

SBS violation is predictable. The "weapon of mass destruction" charge seems to be a little over the top and a new twist, though.

Unreasonable, draconian, illogical laws can be quite predictable.

[DeltaElite]

Weapon of mass destruction?
WTH are they talking about? :fire:

This is insane, totally freakin insane. :banghead:

[cool45auto]

He wasn't charged with any crimes but they're keeping his guns and ammo? :fire: :cuss: :banghead:

[KMKeller]

Tyme, you have to consider the environment when looking at a bunch of those laws. Most were enacted to counteract and deal with rampant KKK organizations in the heart of the bible belt...

[Tamara]

The dumb guy left his door open and the gun out in plain view - based on what the story has to say.

Call me crazy, but the back bedroom hardly qualifies as "plain view".

If a cop can just stroll on back to your bedroom to see if there's anything illegal laying around back there that he may want to get a warrant for, then why, pray tell, bother with the warrant thing in the first place?

"Hi! My name's Officer Smith. I'm gonna search your house and see if I find anything that gives me probable cause to get a warrant to search your house."

I guess that must make sense to someone...

[Tamara]

North Carolina is kinda the California of the South. They actually have to get a signed permission slip from their local sherriff's office to buy a pistol.

[DeltaElite]

The cops were there on a check welfare, which means they have to check every room to see if someone is there that needs help, but is unable to respond, sometimes sick or dead. :(
I have found several dead, from various causes.
Now as to why they were there on a check welfare, is an entirely different issue, but the courts have recognized the validity of an officers presence due to a check welfare.

Plain view simply means it was out in the open and they didn't have to open drawers or search for what they found.

The legal basis for their presence, the finding of the weapon and the warrant that followed are well founded in the legal system.

All this Weapon of Mass Destruction is the biggest load of crap I have ever heard.

If I had seen the same SBS, I would have said, "cool" and left it at that, since I find the law to be ridicilous.

Here is an explination of the plain view doctrine. The actions of the officers appear to have met the criteria of the plain view doctrine.
Plain View Doctrine (http://www.uwp.edu/academic/criminal.justice/plainv.htm)

[tyme]

Yeah, or a crossbow. :o

I'm well aware of the legislative history behind things like mask laws, but that doesn't make any such laws acceptable. They've also had a good while to repeal those laws now, and their failure to do so just proves the Bill of Rights is dead.

"Weapon of Mass Death and Destruction" my eye. My car is a weapon of mass death and destruction; thanks to me, it just hasn't achieved its potential yet. :cool:

I wonder if there's room to argue that a federal tax stamp qualifies as a license under the NC "WoMDaD" law.

[Tamara]

Oh, I'm aware of the legal rationale and standing, I just think it's a load of bovine exhaust (as I attempted to illustrate in my post). :)

Whether the item was a SBS, a load of marijuana, a smuggled nuclear warhead or whatever, the man had a reasonable expectation of privacy in his own bedroom. ;)

[DeltaElite]

Ok Tamara, makes sense now. :D

When I am doing a check welfare, I am looking for dead people, not contraband.
I know I have "not seen" many things over the years. ;)

[Jmurman]

Somehow the short barrelled shotgun managed to contaminate all the rest of the legal guns. How, exactly, does that work?

They will say that he has comitted a firearms felony (not paying tax on the SBS) and therefore now he cannot have any weapons...its how the unconstitutional system works.

[Jmurman]

Pugh arrived at his home before officer's returned with the search warrant. Police said Pugh gave officers permission to search his home.


Lesson to all....DO NOT GIVE PERMISSION TO SEARCH WITHOUT A WARRANT OR CONTACTING AN ATTORNEY...........

[JohnBT]

mercedesrules - So we are agreed to stop making rude assumptions about each other?

Tamara - He left the front door standing open. I fail to see that he expected any privacy from anyone. Once the police were called they couldn't simply look in the living room and call it a day - suppose the owner had stroked out in one of the back rooms. The next day's headlines would not have been complimentary.

DeltaElite - Very good explanation of the situation. Also...the older I get the more I appreciate the name of a local band - Fighting Gravity.

As far as a catching a break from a police officer - it's nice when it happens, but you can't bank on it happening. Years ago a guy at work was pulled for drunk driving. The officer rolled the window down and let him toss his film tin of pot in the bushes. All in the luck of the draw. I somehow doubt that he would have let him toss a sawed-off(or even an ounce bag) in the bushes. Maybe.

If you don't like the current gun laws, then join, donate, lobby and vote.

John

[CZ-75]

Translation: "Even though Taxpayer Unit #1175912 has not been charged with any crime, we're stealing his legal posessions in direct violation of the Constitution. What are you going to do about it, serfs?"

The SBS will be the ticket here. They already know what they want to do - charge him for the SBS. They will confiscate the guns for "safekeeping," then create the charges to make it official and permanent.


As to whether the presence of the SBS is grounds for a warrant, I'd say that the point is moot, since the homeowner acceded to the search before they actually served their warrant.

If someone has made these points already, so much the better, but I haven't read the whole thread yet.


Finished.

Lesson to all....DO NOT GIVE PERMISSION TO SEARCH WITHOUT A WARRANT OR CONTACTING AN ATTORNEY...........

Exactly.

I'd say his grounds for dismissal just went out the window. Too bad you have to be contemplating how to work the system to avoid being run over for some trivial infraction that you may have had no knowledge of (It isn't like there are so few laws that you could memorize them all.).

[Sergeant Bob]

He shouldn't have broken the law, should have locked his door, should have paid 5$ for a stamp, the cop was just doing his job.....When it all comes down, when they pass some new law making your guns illegal, most will just hand in their weapons to avoid being on the wrong side of the law.
MOLON LABE! From my cold, dead hands! Blah blah blah blah.... For most, just catchy phrases and neat bumper stickers.

[Tamara]

Tamara - He left the front door standing open. I fail to see that he expected any privacy from anyone.

Could you see the back bedroom from the street without being invited onto the property with the permission of the owner? No? Then he had every friggin' right to the expectation of privacy.

Just because I leave my front door unlocked, open, or off its flippin' hinges doesn't give every h. sap. with a squad car the right to go strolling through my home... :fire:

[mercedesrules]

He shouldn't have broken the law, should have locked his door, should have paid 5$ for a stamp, the cop was just doing his job.....When it all comes down, when they pass some new law making your guns illegal, most will just hand in their weapons to avoid being on the wrong side of the law.
MOLON LABE! From my cold, dead hands! Blah blah blah blah.... For most, just catchy phrases and neat bumper stickers.

Exactly! :(

MR

[mercedesrules]

JohnBT said:mercedesrules - So we are agreed to stop making rude assumptions about each other?
Done.

MR

[EJ]

By Tamara--

Just because I leave my front door unlocked, open, or off its flippin' hinges doesn't give every h. sap. with a squad car the right to go strolling through my home

I don't like it any more than you -- but unfortunately it does--

It even -- once official attention is called to it-- impart an obligation to the LE agancy to do so-- or face political and or civil problems for failing to "investigate" the complaint--

Anyone in LE enforcement for a period of time has done this -- I doubt anyone liked it-- (It always scared the hell out of me) You find people dead -- sick -- etc-- and that's not where the fear comes from--
Nobody likes wandering artound a house that you don't know and don't know who is within and with what weapons or intentions-- This is done not at the whim of theofficer but at the behest of citizens that called it in--
The LE agency then gets stuck with the problem and responsibility--:rolleyes:

[Jeff Thomas]

And, Randy Weaver had a SBS, but 1/4 inch, as I recall.

They had a logical reason for investigating. As usual, they decided the gun owner was likely a criminal, and the firearms probable cause for arrest seizure.

The fascists are still here ...

Regards from TX

[mercedesrules]

Jeff T. said:And, Randy Weaver had a SBS, but 1/4 inch, as I recall.
I think that some fedgov drones paid (entrapped) Randy to saw off their gun in order to harass and punish him for attending a few militia meetings. He refused many times, but eventually gave in so they would quit bothering him.
MR