School Lockdown


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GullyFoyle
March 1, 2006, 08:05 PM
My children (ages 10, 13) were telling me about practice "school lockdown". I suspect this practice has been instituted nationwide since Columbine, where an announcement comes over the PA system and the Teacher locks the door and herds the children into the corner of the room to give the appearance that there is no one in the room.

After thinking about this for a few minutes it seemed pretty counter-intuititive. I didn't follow the details of Columbine very well, but it seems to me that the kids that survived were the ones who got out fast, and that those being hunted were saved by running away. Seems to me that if there was a homicidal maniac bent on killing as many children as possible that the best way to insure his success would be to lock the kids in so they can't away from him (or them).

So, needless to say, after giving it some thought, i have instructed my children that in the event of a REAL lockdown, they are to GET OUT and GET OUT FAST, and KEEP RUNNING. (they announce that the practice lockdowns are "practice") I got the usual, "but that's against the rules" stuff, and i had to make it clear to them that they are to break the rules and physically force their way out if the teacher attempts to stop them.

Andbody else given this any thought? Given their kids instructions regarding "lockdown". (isn't that what they do in prisons?)

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Hockeydude
March 1, 2006, 08:12 PM
Well lets say the gunner is on the same floor and hallway your children are on. I think running out into the hallway would be a big risk in that you might catch the killer's attention, and he will start shooting. I think a locked door would be safe, assuming that the killer doesn't break it down.

bogie
March 1, 2006, 08:16 PM
If they're on the first floor, they should maybe go out the window. I think that too many of the "lockdown" rules are more about control than anything else, and providing a semblance of security.

ribbonstone
March 1, 2006, 08:42 PM
In a more dangerous area I guess...14 or 16 years ago (been retired 5 years) had a couple of lock down situtations due to either students or intruders with guns on campus. In the worst case, he was looking for one specific student to shoot...luckly, not one of the ones locked down with me. One of those color-coordianted youth orgnization things.

In the first had security guards and local police running around trying to capture the kid (back then, didn't shoot them so often)..who managed to climb onto a flat roof which was visiable by 1/2 the school building (the side facting that gym roof...call it 800 kids (1/2 the school population).

Natural selection...the problem kids gathered around with windows to watch no matter how much you'd try to stop them...so I gave up and hid the good kids as close to being aligned with a heavy metal object....of it need be, behind one of the bad-fat ones.

In the second, the kid was in my class (his second day...a transfer student) and when he knocked over his book bag, a crappy nickle plated .380 (Davis...or whatever incarnation those Zinc wonders were back then) slid across the floor. He fielded it like a second base man, scopping it up on his way out the droor at a full run.

Hawkmoon
March 1, 2006, 09:02 PM
So, needless to say, after giving it some thought, i have instructed my children that in the event of a REAL lockdown, they are to GET OUT and GET OUT FAST, and KEEP RUNNING. (they announce that the practice lockdowns are "practice") I got the usual, "but that's against the rules" stuff, and i had to make it clear to them that they are to break the rules and physically force their way out if the teacher attempts to stop them.

Andbody else given this any thought? Given their kids instructions regarding "lockdown". (isn't that what they do in prisons?)
I know you mean well, but I think you are absolutely, 100% wrong.

First, you should not instruct your kids to disobey teachers. This instills a disrespect for authority. (Not that authority needs to be respected at all times, but disrespect should be reserved for authorities who act like dictators.) If you have a problem with the school's policy, you should address it head-on with the superintendent and the board of education rather than teach your kids that it's okay to break rules they don't happen to agree with.

Secondly, that last place a kid should be if there's a gunman running loose in the school is out in the corridor playing moving target. Lockdown means LOCKdown. The doors to the classrooms are locked. Yes, a shooter can shoot through the doors. But if he can't open the doors, he can't see what he's shooting at.

IMHO, as a member of a profession (other than education) that regularly deals with school security issues, I believe on balance your kids will be safer locked in a classroom than out in the hall hoping they don't meet the shooter(s) before they make it out the door. (And then hope there aren't other shooters outside watching the doors -- don't forget that other school shooting where the kid pulled a false alarm, then shot the kids as they exited the school.)

Maxwell
March 1, 2006, 09:07 PM
If we're talking cheap school doors and the current Swat strategy of "Wait outside until the shooting stops", That gives the shooters pleanty of time to mess with the locks or shoot through the door itself. Especially if it has a visible window in it.
Then theres the fact these kids know how to make bombs. They will also know the current tactics to stop attacks (they've obviously been rehearsing them). Im not going to plot out ideas, but lets just say it wouldnt take much thinking to get around lockdown procedures.

Personaly I believe the only solution to dealing with any madman attack in any situation is armed citizens, armed employes, or an ample number of armed guards stationed if that establishment dosnt have enough of those.
The best way to stop a shooter is to shoot them.

TarpleyG
March 1, 2006, 09:33 PM
I see Hawkmoon has been drinking the koolaid...are you a cop or teacher maybe?

The way I see it, this is no better than a zero tolerance policy. It leaves no room for decision making or discretion on the student's part or the teacher's.

You are your kid's parent and I have 100% confidence that you know what is best for THEM, not the school administration.

Sometimes authority has to be usurped.

Greg

GullyFoyle
March 1, 2006, 09:50 PM
"If we're talking cheap school doors and the current Swat strategy of "Wait outside until the shooting stops", "

Yes, that was something i was taking into account.


"First, you should not instruct your kids to disobey teachers. This instills a disrespect for authority."

I ALWAYS teach my children to QUESTION authority, and make up their own mind, the only authority they are not allowed to question is ME :D. (just kidding).

"Well lets say the gunner is on the same floor and hallway your children are on. I think running out into the hallway would be a big risk in that you might catch the killer's attention, and he will start shooting."

If there is gunner looking to kill random kids i would rather trust my kid's legs vs. the security of a locked door.

And i guess the main question i would ask, if Columbine had a lockdown policy would the body count have been lower or higher? (i'm guessing higher, but again, i'm no Columbine expert)

(p.s. haven't figured out how to quote other people in grey yet...)

Powderman
March 1, 2006, 09:57 PM
They forgot one important part about the lockdown practice that would be the most effective:

"After students are placed in the part of the room furthest from the door, the teacher shall instruct the students to cover their ears.

"The teacher shall immediately don the school-issued Peltor Presidential hearing protectors, and (utilizing the issued combination) will secure the shotgun kept in hidden storage in the classroom. This shotgun will be kept loaded alternatively with buckshot and slugs.

"After manually loading the first round of buckshot, the teacher will position themselves to cover the doorway, and will remain in this position until the all-clear is sounded.

"NOTE: The teacher is instructed to fire, without hesitation, if any hostile intruders attempt to enter the classroom." :what: :what: :eek: :evil:

Would'nt that be just too cool?

RyanM
March 1, 2006, 09:59 PM
First, you should not instruct your kids to disobey teachers. This instills a disrespect for authority.

So does the public school system. Any kid with a functioning brain realizes that teachers don't know crap by 6th grade at the latest.

Hockeydude
March 1, 2006, 11:07 PM
If we're talking cheap school doors and the current Swat strategy of "Wait outside until the shooting stops"

Actually, after Columbine police departments have applied new strategies where they have designated first response officers, who's job is to enter the school as soon as possible, and elimnate the threat before backup arrives. I'm not sure if this is nation-wide.

Chrontius
March 1, 2006, 11:49 PM
I've never thought that the lockdown idea for violent shooter stuff was good... now I just realized why -- in two words: Pipe. Bomb.

migoi
March 1, 2006, 11:52 PM
GullyFoyle that after a statement such as this:

So, needless to say, after giving it some thought, i have instructed my children that in the event of a REAL lockdown, they are to GET OUT and GET OUT FAST, and KEEP RUNNING. (they announce that the practice lockdowns are "practice") I got the usual, "but that's against the rules" stuff, and i had to make it clear to them that they are to break the rules and physically force their way out if the teacher attempts to stop them.

that you would have the courage of your convictions and do one of two things. If you don't trust the school personnel to protect your children to the best of their ability you will immediately (as in tomorrow morning) pull your children out of that horrible school and educate them yourself.

Lacking the resources to do that then please write a letter to your children's teachers stating exactly what you wish your children to do in case of a real lockdown so he/she won't waste anytime arguing with your children and can devote their attention to the other children. Accompanying this letter should be one to the principal and school board absolving them and the school district of any responsibility for what happens to your children when they take your advice.


Ryan... this: Any kid with a functioning brain realizes that teachers don't know crap by 6th grade at the latest. is way too funny, since this (the not knowing crap part) is what students past the sixth grade usually say about their parents on a daily basis. Thanks for the laugh.

migoi

sam59
March 2, 2006, 12:36 AM
I find it funny how quite a few have an opinion on how to do it better or the current way is crap etc.... but i bet you have not gone to your school and suggested anything different. There is so much misinformation in this entire thread it's scary.

Hockeydude is correct:

Departments in Arizona have training on active shooters in schools. Officer DO NOT sit around and wait for the shooting to stop as Maxwell suggested, they are taught to immediately search for the shooter.

Lockdowns are not just for a person on the campus with a gun!! It could be any situation that poses a threat. A homeless drunk wandered onto the campus carrying a big stick. There could be any number of situations that cause a lockdown. Many times the lockdown is a result of something happening near the campus and as a precautionary measure the school gets locked down. So logically you want your kid running from the school directly into the problem area. F'ing brilliant.

GullyFoyle:
If you instruct your kids to do as you say, dont whine when they are suspended for it. You have your idea's for whats best for your kids and so do I. But if your kids are in a class with mine and cause a problem when its time to lockdown then that is unacceptable. Put them in private school.

Schools have adopted a nationwide procedure for lockdowns, of course its not perfect, you can "what if" the policy until your blue in the face. The only reason people "what if" constantly is because they have no real argument or worse, have no realistic solution, but it's always easier to sit back and criticize.

TarpleyG-
You seriously want to leave a decision of this magnitude to 8-10 year olds discretion?? I hope I misunderstood that. Lockdowns are generally set in motion by the principal, school resource officer or security officers. To lockdown the school there has to be a need and the teachers will most likely have no idea at all why. So I certainly hope my kids teacher does not take it on themselves to exercise discretion by stepping out of the classroom to see if they can handle the situation better.

"So does the public school system. Any kid with a functioning brain realizes that teachers don't know crap by 6th grade at the latest".

That statment is just plain ignorant.

C96
March 2, 2006, 12:57 AM
sam59 has made several very good points, particularly the one about lockdowns
that are not about a shooter on campus. Most of the lockdowns in my area have been
caused by an incident in the general neighborhood of the school campus. They didn't want
anybody leaving until the issue was resolved. A couple of kids running from the
school into something like this could be a bad thing.

And in case of an active shooter on campus, a moving target attracts the eye,
and if the police are arriving could present them with more choices than they will need.

allan

RyanM
March 2, 2006, 01:05 AM
is way too funny, since this (the not knowing crap part) is what students past the sixth grade usually say about their parents on a daily basis. Thanks for the laugh.

See what the public education system does to kids? They have no respect for their elders, because they spend 6 hours a day locked in a room with adults who deserve no respect. Like the one that had all the kids cross out guns on the worksheet, and the one that called bullet points "bubbles," etc. There are exceptions, but they're few and far between.

I'm a staunch advocate of home schooling.

Lupinus
March 2, 2006, 01:22 AM
if your kids are any more then a classroom or two from the door and thats hoping there is good cover near the door bad idea. Better idea is duck and cover then it is to make a run for it out in the open esspecialy if you don't know where the shooter is in the building. Sure he can shoot the lock out, but behind a wall under cover rather then in the open is a much better place to be when you aren't armed.

Also you get in the way of responding cops. Cop comes into the school assuming all the children are locked down and the ones in the halls are the shooters, he sees something in your kids hand that looks like a gun, you get the idea. It isn't likly but then it isn't likly a man getting his wallet out would be shot at 47 times either by jumpy police, but the latter has happened.

So does the public school system. Any kid with a functioning brain realizes that teachers don't know crap by 6th grade at the latest
Not exactly true, in general by that age many kids think their elders don't know squat esspecialy in this age where they aren't taught to.

If you can in any way home school your kids, DO IT. Not only will they get a better education they will be safer and not be exposed to the idiocy of the public school system in this country, private school if you hae the money and access to a good one is the next best idea.

Hawkmoon
March 2, 2006, 02:25 AM
If we're talking cheap school doors and the current Swat strategy of "Wait outside until the shooting stops", That gives the shooters pleanty of time to mess with the locks or shoot through the door itself. Especially if it has a visible window in it.
If you think school doors are so cheap, suppose you stop by your local high school or junior high, close one of the classroom doors, and try to punch through it.

No, I will not pay for the reconstructive surgery.

History Nut
March 2, 2006, 02:41 AM
I attended a presentation by a fire officer that was on scene at the Columbine incident. He provided a LOT of detail that wasn't generally reported. The two murderers' original plan was a lot different than what happened. They had placed IEDs(not the term used then, but appropriate) in the school for the purpose of causing a school evacuation. They located themselves outside the school prepared to "snipe" the students and faculty after they evacuated to the parking lot. The parking lot was the standard location for the students to gather after a 'fire drill'. They were planning to kill as many as they could and then 'bug out' from their peripheral location. They had also placed IEDs in some vehicles in the lot for further casualties including the first-responding fire/police. He told of one fire truck that parked and when the members exited the apparatus, they saw an IED in a car right next to the truck! Fortunately for some, the IEDs either failed completely or were 'low order'. The murderers changed plans and advanced on the school. About then the police arrived which caused the killers to enter the school to avoid the police/sheriffs and begin their murders. The principle tradgedy was the law enforcement inertia in entering the school. The LEO commanders forgot the old principle that says: "a poor plan executed immediately is most often better than the 'perfect' plan implemented too late". Had the two killers' IEDs and plan occured as they intended, many more probably would have died and they might have initially gotten away from the scene.

While I grasp the many concerns expressed here, ordering a rigid response of your children in a 'lockdown' situation is no better than the Columbine law enforcement command 'textbook' response in ordering the first arriving officers/deputies to form a perimeter and wait for SWAT to organize entry teams. Neither is the 'correct' answer. There are too many variables. I don't know a 'correct' answer. What do you tell your offspring? You may have to trust their immature 'better judgement'. If you raised them right, they may surprise you.

Maxwell
March 2, 2006, 03:18 AM
If you think school doors are so cheap, suppose you stop by your local high school or junior high, close one of the classroom doors, and try to punch through it.

Fine and dandy, but is it bullet/flame/explosive proof?
Or are they just going to point a rifle at and start shooting into a room with 20 kids inside?

I dont have an alternative plan to offer, and I'll admit lockdown probly the best current solution to a complicated problem... but still, the bit that disturbes me most is it sounds like the tactics for saving a sinking ship by sealing off compartments.
Yes you prevent 500 people from losing their lives, but you still condemn 20 or more if they happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Then what your using for a barrier might not be up to that task if the attacker came with a plan in mind.

The best option is to make sure these madmen dont have such an advantage in firepower to begin with. Arm the faculty or provide proper guards.

foghornl
March 2, 2006, 07:49 AM
I don't have any skool-age kids anymore, but that whole 'lockdown' thing bothers me, too.

Last time I was in the local elementary school (my voting place), I noticed that the classroom doors are about 1/3 glass...and not Plexi-Glas or Poly-carbonate, or even the 'Chicken-Wire' re-inforced stuff just plain thin sheet glass, and more glass than the average home door.

Building maintenence guy got real P.O.'d when I asked him about the deadbolts he was putting in the glass doors...Key outside, thumbolt inside. How exactly whould that prevent some miscreant from shattering glass with a round or 2, or even a well-placed elbow, and then just reaching in and unlocking door ? ? ?

Custodian ran to principal, who came back and demanded I leave the school grounds. I said "OK, but then YOU are going down for interfering in the voting process. Won't take but about 15 minutes for the Media to start showing up here." {said while waving cel-fone around} Leftist principal stormed off without saying anything else directly to me, but muttering something about "Smart-azzes who THINK they know more than me."

Euclidean
March 2, 2006, 08:17 AM
As always, the American educator is public enemy #1 on The High Road.

Let me explain something to you all - I have studied my building and developed a contingency plan for this event, and in a lot of cases the best I can honestly do is have the students duck and cover in a corner of the room where the shooter couldn't see them behind a locked door (solid core with reinforced glass by the way quite sturdy) while I go out in the hall and drop the security barriers.

The best personal weapon I have at hand is either a folding knife or better yet a wooden stool. If I bring my CCW, I am committing all sorts of crimes. It's not an option.

As one of those teachers who doesn't know crap and shouldn't be respected I have decided ahead of time if I ever have to deal with this situation, I will use the limited tools I have on hand to do the best I can. I've planned for it as well as I can with what I have and what I am allowed to do. If someone is on campus looking to shoot students, they will literally do it over my dead body. I don't believe in playing hero but those are my charges and I am responsible for their safety even at the expense of my own.

I too am doubtful the lockdown idea solves much, but it's a tool I have at my disposal and I will use it.

It really amazes me how people will scream how I will murder their children if I were allowed to CCW at my place of employment, and then they blame me for inadequate school security measures.

dfaugh
March 2, 2006, 08:29 AM
but I gotta side with the schools on this one...While it might not be the ideal solution in all instances, its probably the best. Otherwise my mental picture is hundreds of kids streaming through the hallways where

A) a shooter has a "target rich" environment
or
B) first responders are unable to do their various jobs--find the assailant, help any wounded, etc.

Also, in the aftermath, its easy to account for the children...you don't have 100 parents standing around agonizing over the whereabouts and what-ifs of their child.

And, believe me, I'm not one to blindly allow the school policies (or have my kids do so). My stepson once called me from a payphone near his school, and told me they'd had a bomb scare, and evacuated the building. He was afraid to re-enter the building, because all they had done was SEND THE TEACHERS AND OTHER SCHOOL WORKERS IN TO CHECK FOR ANYTHING "SUSPICIOUS"! I asked if they had brought in dogs, and he said no (was heavily into dog trainig at the time, knew alot of the K-9 officers, and how good a bomb dog can be). I told him to find his teacher, or principal or who ever he could, explain to them, and tell them that he was leaving school, and to contact me if they had a problem, and then walk home (only 3/4 mile). The next day he told his classmates why he left, several parents called me, and we eventually met with school officials to change the way they handled things. This was pre-Columbine, so that's why I think they were a little lax, but still...

Ziryo
March 2, 2006, 09:41 AM
Hmm.

I graduated from High School nearly two years ago.

The school district had three different policies: Code Red (fire), Code Yellow (unknowns in the school), and Code Black (bomb threat.)

The plans for each, respectively, was: leave the school, lockdown, leave the school.

Only once was a Code Black ever called and what happened was that everyone (everyone) ended up sitting on the bleachers waiting for the school to be cleared. After that I wondered how hard it would be for a bomber to call in a bomb threat after setting explosives near the bleachers...

Another day there was a fault with the fire alarm and it went of about five or six times. After the first three times it was ignored.

The doors in the high school was made of heavy wood with "bullet resistant" glass (chickenwire in 1/4 inch thick glass.) There's only one School Resource Officer on duty. If someone started shooting between classes I would book it. Period. I'm not going to go to my next class and huddle in the classroom with a bunch of other people.

If something happens while I'm in class there's nothing I can really do except hope that nothing happens, like say...someone breaking the glass in classroom doors and tossing in a grenade or using a shotgun to blow the door of its' hinges (all classroom doors open out into the hall.) If the SRO is dead and there's no other people officers there I'm pretty much SOL until the police arrive...and 5 minutes can be a very long time...

V4Vendetta
March 2, 2006, 09:49 AM
I think that planning a stratagy for your kids is not possible for me to say without knowing the layout of your school. My elementry school had a emergency exit in every classroom so locking the door to the hallway sounds like a good idea for my ex-school. As for teachers carrying 1911's or G19's, I think that they should be able to if they desire, but they should have to practice every day to insure accuracy. They can cut down on the homework amount in order to have enough time at the range. Less homework, less time grading it. I've been home-schooled since the 5th grade so that's my reccomendation. You get to spend more time with them, you can make sure that they aren't taught that guns are inherently evil, etc.

I won't say for most teachers, but the ones I had were evil. I went to a public school. Never again.

trickyasafox
March 2, 2006, 10:22 AM
we did this drill while i was in highschool. it had less to do with us feeling safe and more for the school to search lockers for pot. ok everyone your locked in your rooms! then they'd go check some lockers, then let us out, come back with police and say someone tipped em off. i was never in trouble in hs, nor do i smoke pot. however, even i figured out what was happening. this occured in both middle and high school.

edited to add: im not saying what the administrators did was wrong, im not a fan of searches and would have felt violated but i wasnt in there position. im just pointing out what seemed to be a theme as observed by me.

sam59
March 2, 2006, 10:29 AM
I expected this to continue into a bashing of the education system, SWAT, teachers etc.... But to my pleasant suprise some well thought out and experienced talking points. Good to see some rationale thought for a change.

civilian
March 2, 2006, 10:34 AM
i'm really not understanding this thread. some of you guys are suggesting that in the event of an emergency (that the average kid, hell the average adult might not fully comprehend: fire? gunman? wild animal on the grounds? mercury scare? etc), your kid should go screaming out into the hallway or out of a window and run head-on into that unknown threat? is this any different than an intruder entering your home, and instead of staying put in the agreed upon room you've hopefully designated, your kid goes flying down the stairs into the dark living room to get out of the house and right into the threat? or perhaps when you're out on the street and a loud explosion is heard, instead of staying put by your side your kid takes off across two lanes of traffic and under the wheel of a moving vehicle? All different examples, and perhaps none of them will happen, but you're leaving that decision to a kid? tell you what - when your kid decides to implement dad's "flight" plan - just make sure he's not yapping in my kid's ear to "follow me!"

HankB
March 2, 2006, 10:54 AM
Lock down or bug out?

Seems to me this would have a LOT to do with the age of the students.

More than a few years have passed since I've been in high school, but if I were still 15 and there was some lunatic shooting things up and a "lockdown" was announced, I'd be gone if my classroom happened to be on the first floor . . . and trust me, by high school I'd have had enough judgement not to run out into traffic.

If I were in a position to not leave - say, on the 3rd floor - and locked in a room . . . that door WOULD be barricaded with desks, bookcases, everything that wasn't nailed down.

Again, that's for high school . . . if dealing with little kids in elementary school . . . I'm not so sure.

migoi
March 2, 2006, 11:07 AM
funny about these thread having to do with schools is how many posters seem totally unaware that most schools are begging parents and community members to be part of the school and the decision making processes that occur there.

One of the items that have to be proven by the school during the accreditation process is how parents and community members are involved in the school (and we're not talking about baking cupcakes anymore). We just went through our accreditation visit last week and not only were a goodly number of the questions some form of "How did you make sure all stakeholders (the word for anyone have anything to do with the school) were involved in the process to reach this point but they met several times with groups of parents, students, and community members.

But I guess it's just easier to bash on an internet forum than actually get in there and do the work to change things.

migoi

Hawkmoon
March 2, 2006, 11:07 AM
I find it funny how quite a few have an opinion on how to do it better or the current way is crap etc.... but i bet you have not gone to your school and suggested anything different. There is so much misinformation in this entire thread it's scary.
I have spoken with the school, and the police department.

For the benefit of whoever asked (after I had said I was not in education), no I am not in education. I am an architect who writes specifications for school security. They are building a huge addition to the high school in my town, and I have reviewed my concerns with both the police department and the school administration, and sent my comments in writing to the Board of Education.

First, let me make clear that references to "lockdown" do not mean that anyone is locked into a classroom. That's not the way the locks work. The doors will be locked on the corridor side but, by law (fire codes) the knob on the inside of the room must always be capable of opening the door, even if the hallway side is locked. The lock manufacturers now have a new lock type (called a "function") for "Classroom Security" locks. The lock has a key slot on each side. On the hallway side, as always, the teacher needs a key to unlock the door, and a key to lock it.

The old classroom locks had no key slot on the inside. The new security locks do. The purpose is obvious (I hope): because most classroom doors swing out into the hall (for fire code reasons), a teacher would have to go out into the corridor to lock the door. Not a good idea if there's a shooter in the corridor. The new function allows them to lock the door from inside, without having to go into the corridor. But I stress that the knob (or lever, probably) on the inside can still open the door if escape should become necessary.

I agree about glass. One of my comments regarding the proposed addition to my town's high school is that most of the new classrooms will have security locks, and LARGE glass sidelights right next to the doors. I pointed out to the administration and to the deputy chief of police (who heads the school response team) the insanity of locking a door and leaving a window big enough to walk through if a shooter decides to take it out. Fortunately, the existing classrooms do NOT have sidelights.

Those doors, by the way, are heavy. Maybe we should ask that guy at the Box 'o Truth to try shooting through some solid-core doors. They are 1-3/4" of high-density particle board. I;m sure they won't stop a .50 cal bullet from a Barrett, but if they won't stop a handgun round I expect they'll take a lot of the steam off it. I'm more concerned about a shooter firing through the walls around the doors, but he'd be shooting blind at that point so you have to hope that psychologically he won't "see" a target, so won't recognize that he has a target-rich environment behind those lockers.

Yes, I have given this much serious consideration over a period of several years, because it's my job, and I have discussed it with the first responders. I firmly believe that 99% of the time, just like 99% of the time you're safer if you DO wear seatbelts, the kids will be safer staying in the classrooms. The response team will establish communication from a central point, and if/when a room or wing is safe enough to evacuate, they will order the kids out. Telling your kids to run on their own, counter to what the response team is expecting, is IMHO very stupid.

Guy de Loimbard
March 2, 2006, 11:17 AM
I think my high school CAD teacher had it right.

He said if our school had a situation like that, he didn't really care what we did. He wouldn't try to stop us from leaving if we wanted to, he would be too busy breaking land speed records on the way out, heading to the police station 1/4 mile down the road.

Our classroom had a door into the machine shop, a door to the outside and windows along the same side as the machine shop door; the windows were looking into the machine shop. There was no where to hide.

Maxwell
March 2, 2006, 11:23 AM
Its the divide between what would be a smart response to different problems. You move differently to a fire than you would to a bomb or gunman, or a deer lost in the hallway for that matter.

For a general response to trouble inside, I think the best idea is to be outside the building as quickly as possible using alternate routs.

You want to know what else I think?
I think doors are overrated.

Personaly I like me an open window and a ladder in an emergency. If I built a school, it would have exploding wall panels and inflating slides like airliners.

Maybe a gunman has an unlimited field of fire outside, but I also have the world of hiding spots. I'll take zigzagging across an open playground over trying to outrun bullets down a hallway or hiding in a closet.

nfl1990
March 2, 2006, 11:41 AM
(Not that authority needs to be respected at all times, but disrespect should be reserved for authorities who act like dictators.)

Technically in a classrom the teacher is a dictator.

Also, those of you talking about kicking down school doors: there is no need.
I know from experiance that nearly all doors in my school can be credit cared in 3-5seconds, (I know of at least one door where you could even use a pencil, and not the sharp side either))

engineer151515
March 2, 2006, 11:45 AM
Sometimes the best made plans are ... well... not the best. The World Trade Center's stay in place plan turned out to be a bad idea. I can think of some industrial accidents (offshore oil rigs) where the e-plan contributed to fatalities. But you need something and bug out would be difficult.


migoi
most schools are begging parents and community members to be part of the school and the decision making processes that occur there

I know we disagree about public schools but it seems yours at least care.

SSN Vet
March 2, 2006, 11:56 AM
+1 to Maxwells quote

"The best way to stop a shooter is to shoot them"

Armed pilots for jihadist hijackers...

Why not armed teachers for the trenchcoat gothic school shooters...if of course they could restrain themselves from disciplining the students with their weapon.

belton-deer-hunter
March 2, 2006, 12:06 PM
at our school we have lockdowns all the tiem mostly for drug searchs of our vehicles and persons and book bags etc. they have the nice little black lab come in and smell us and our things. i have never done drugs so i havent had a problem about that but they also taught them to smell gun powder and that has got my truck searched a copule of times i have to go outside to my truck and let them in to it so they can rumage around find some .22 shells or a shotgun shell never any guns but they still look and let me go back to class when they are done

JJpdxpinkpistols
March 2, 2006, 12:38 PM
As always, the American educator is public enemy #1 on The High Road.

Judging by the salaries paid and high work load combined with the lack of respect and costant bashing, I would say that the American Educator is Public Enemy #1 PERIOD. not just on THR.

My dad, MIL, SIL and stepfather are, or have been teachers. My sister is in school to be a teacher. All work very hard, for little pay and have intense beauracracy to deal with, at least locally. Having said that, I choose not to overburden the classrooms with my daughters. We homeschool. Our "School" is always protected by armed guards ;)

the best I can honestly do is have the students duck and cover in a corner of the room

Agreed. Given the tools at hand, typical building layouts (we build schools to be open places, not fortresses) and will of the people, you are right on target.

If I bring my CCW, I am committing all sorts of crimes. It's not an option.

Now a question!

*IF* you could CCW, would you?

HankB
March 2, 2006, 12:46 PM
they also taught them to smell gun powder and that has got my truck searched a couple of times Sounds like an opportunity to me . . . suppose "someone" sprinkled some illicit substance ALL AROUND the school in quantities that are invisible, but which a dog could smell? Perhaps by making a "tea" out of it and then squirting, oh, teacher's lockers, the principal's car tires, etc.? :evil:

migoi
March 2, 2006, 04:40 PM
that's sure to improve the education the students in that school are receiving. Adding chaos to the system always helps.

migoi

grimjaw
March 2, 2006, 04:48 PM
I see Hawkmoon has been drinking the koolaid

TarpleyG, what part of his statement did you find wrong? There was an incident where a kid pulled a fire alarm and waited until people exited the building and shot them outside. Happened at Westside in Arkansas, and my roommate had just finished delivering office supplies there 30 minutes earlier.

jmm

Bill2k1
March 2, 2006, 04:58 PM
The school lockdown is the best way to try and save as many kids as possible. I am sure if it were a real situation that the teacher would think on their feet and maybe break a window and get kids going out it.

You have to look at it this way. There are say 30 kids in a classroom and 1 teacher. Figure there are 300 kids in the school. Total number of people in the school maybe 450.

You have to make a blanket plan to protect them ALL, and the lockdown plan is the best choice.

cracked butt
March 2, 2006, 06:04 PM
I would think that a kid getting into a classroom is a really good second option if they aren't close enough to an exit to get out. The doors I remember in my high school were very heavy and stout- not bullet proof though. It beats the heck out of running around in the hallways in a panic.

Maxwell
March 2, 2006, 06:59 PM
You have to make a blanket plan to protect them ALL, and the lockdown plan is the best choice.

If its just a shooting.
Columbine was intended to be a combination attack. I think it invites a disaster to assume someone out to kill hundreds of people will only do it with one meathod in mind.

another okie
March 2, 2006, 07:18 PM
There's no 100% solution. Any choice administrators make could occasionally lead to a disaster.

But running through hallways if there's a shooter in the school is not a very good idea. After Columbine police changed their tactics. Before that the idea was to establish a perimeter and wait for backup and negotiators. Since they followed their training at Columbine and were criticized for it, police have adopted a new set of tactics.

Now they come in ready to shoot. It's called "hall boss" and they are trained to see people in the hallway as perpetrators. That's the second part of the "lockdown" idea, and if you don't know that they have that in mind then the lockdown may seem stupid.

This new plan will probably result in a few successes and a few failures, and then we'll go back to the old plan, which will result in a few successes and a few failures, and then we'll go back to hall boss. Americans are apparently no longer mature enough to accept the fact that sometimes bad stuff happens and no plan can prevent every harm.

LawDog
March 2, 2006, 08:30 PM
current Swat strategy of "Wait outside until the shooting stops",

Incorrect and out of date by almost a decade.

We undergo what Texas refers to as Active Shooter Response.

What that breaks down to, is as soon as three other officers get to the school, we're going hunting inside. I'm here to tell you, if my partner and I get there, we're going in with only two officers, and we're not going in there to negotiate, we're not going in there to scout, we're going in there to stop the shooting now.

If we run across your kids, they're going to have a whole bunch of AR15's and 12 gauges pointed at them while we figure out if they're critters or not.

Which takes time. Time we don't have. Time that the actual shooters get as a gift while us scared/nervous/adrenaline-charged officers are pointing loaded weapons at your kids who are wandering out in critter territory because all the non-critters are inside the classrooms.

LawDog

Hawkmoon
March 2, 2006, 08:47 PM
Methinks LawDog is trying to make a point.

Thank you, LawDog, for offering the real-world backup for my contention that it's really NOT a good idea to be out cruising the corridors when the school is supposed to be in lockdown.

What you're saying is that the kid who tries to go it alone may become a target for both the bad guy(s) and the good guys. I'll take my chances on the classroom.

But I do wish that teachers and staff could/would be armed and trained. Heck, if we have a federal flightdeck officer program, why don't we have a federal classroom officer program?

Larry Ashcraft
March 2, 2006, 09:06 PM
Teacher-bashing and cop-bashing seem to be favorite sports on this forum. I won't participate in either, but I will offer this up:

We took an active part in our kids' education, conferring with teachers and principals all the way through. We were rewarded with three very good students who have gone onto good careers, one of them as a teacher.

Believe me, I have seen the school system from inside in more ways than one (I've also been in the trophy business for 36 years, and many of my customers are teachers).

The school system isn't out to indoctrinate your kids (at least the ones I'm aware of), they are primarily trying to do their jobs, which is to educate your children and to do that they will do anything in their power to keep your children safe.

The lockdown procedures put in place by the principal and staff are well thought out, believe me, they don't take the safety of your (their) children lightly. The poster above (sorry, I don't remember who it was) who said he would put his life on the line for "his" children exemplifies the attitude of my daughter and most teachers I have known.

There was a school lockdown a couple weeks ago when an off-duty cop was killed in Colorado Springs and the perp was on the loose in the area.

You want your kid trying to run home when this guy is running from the cops?

Point is: I would trust the teachers and principal to protect my kids. That's their job, and they are surprisingly good at it given what they have to work with.

nswtex
March 2, 2006, 09:20 PM
My parents told me that if my little desk was good enough defense for the hydrogen bomb then my wimpy little tornados, bomb threats, and crazy kids had no chance of touching me as long as I had my head tucked between my knees and covering my neck with my hands while in the fetal position under my desk.

bigun15
March 2, 2006, 09:21 PM
Just realize that there is a big difference between a lockdown drill and a lockdown, and we know it. There are two different alarms at my school, one for drills and one for real-time shootings. When there's a drill, we just sit under our desks and consider ourselves lucky for getting a few more minutes of class time wasted. If the real thing happened, I view it as my responsibility to do whatever it takes to keep myself and more importantly the others safe. Yes, there are makeshift weapons in a classroom. Pencils and sharpeners, pens, heavy hole punchers, scissors, thick schoolbooks, tables (for cover/concealment, not so much a weapon), glass from overheads, broken pointy yardsticks, it goes on. If I'm going to die by the hand of a psycho shooter, I'm taking him with me.

jashobeam
March 2, 2006, 09:34 PM
If, as in the case with Columbine, the shooters are students of the school, they will know full well exactly where all the 'targets' are crouched. As Box O' Truth has demonstrated, sheetrock walls are not good bullet-stoppers.

That being said, if I was an HS student and heard shooting, I would prefer a locked classroom to the outdoors.

As others have said, there is no one solution for all potential problems. Lockdown appears to solve the most problems and eliminate the most variables.

akodo
March 3, 2006, 08:30 PM
here's my question about this 'lockdown'

Who is it going to fool? Any kid on a rampage will know that the classrooms only APPEAR empty, and will act accordingly.

A crazy man bent on killing children, MAYBE he will be fooled, but maybe he will be able to think 'hey, the kids don't just disapear into thin air'

Now, if there are numerous people actively fleeing, then yea, glance into a room, see no-one because they are hiding = move to next room. that makes sense. But this whole 'everybody has disappeared' isn't going to fool anyone.

And the problem with crazy people is in some ways they use logic, in others they do not, or use their own specific brand of logic. You cannot count on them being stupid. Sure, they may think the God is talking through their dog, but they were able to drive a car to the scene without getting arrested or in a traffic accident...

BEARMAN
March 3, 2006, 09:50 PM
There must be a law about locking children in a building that may cause them to be gathered up and shot or just burnt to death after the tear gas canister catches the test papers on fire. There are major fines and wrong full death charges layed on club owners that lock back exit doors to prevent people letting in unpaid patrons and exceeding their capacity limits. If 2000 kids were screaming and running out of a building any nut in the way or not moving is going to get trampled.

Manedwolf
March 3, 2006, 10:06 PM
GullyFoyle?

Hey, great username! Alfred Bester's "The Stars My Destination" is a must-read. Nailed the cyberpunk genre back in 1956.

LawDog
March 3, 2006, 10:21 PM
If 2000 kids were screaming and running out of a building any nut in the way or not moving is going to get trampled.

Like Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold were trampled?

Like Thomas Solomon was trampled?

Like Robert Steinhaeuser was trampled?

LawDog

Gifted
March 3, 2006, 10:28 PM
As Box O' Truth has demonstrated, sheetrock walls are not good bullet-stoppers.
My schools(all three, not just high) had concrete block walls. Some partitions and add-ons had sheetrock, but 99% was concrete block. When building a building like a school, block is more economically viable, so I'm curious about your comment. You have a school that's not masonry?

50.
March 3, 2006, 10:47 PM
It would be eazy to keep the doors unlocked and bundle the kids up and, when the attacker walks in the room........the teacher is hiding around the corner whith a shotgun and, BLAM problem solved. :evil:

Hawkmoon
March 4, 2006, 12:42 AM
There must be a law about locking children in a building that may cause them to be gathered up and shot or just burnt to death after the tear gas canister catches the test papers on fire. There are major fines and wrong full death charges layed on club owners that lock back exit doors to prevent people letting in unpaid patrons and exceeding their capacity limits. If 2000 kids were screaming and running out of a building any nut in the way or not moving is going to get trampled.
I already explained that the classroom doors are NOT locked from the classroom side, the locks only secure the corridor side. From the classroom side they can always be opened, even when the outside knob is locked.

GruntII
March 4, 2006, 02:38 AM
I know you mean well, but I think you are absolutely, 100% wrong.

First, you should not instruct your kids to disobey teachers. This instills a disrespect for authority. (Not that authority needs to be respected at all times, but disrespect should be reserved for authorities who act like dictators.) If you have a problem with the school's policy, you should address it head-on with the superintendent and the board of education rather than teach your kids that it's okay to break rules they don't happen to agree with.

Secondly, that last place a kid should be if there's a gunman running loose in the school is out in the corridor playing moving target. Lockdown means LOCKdown. The doors to the classrooms are locked. Yes, a shooter can shoot through the doors. But if he can't open the doors, he can't see what he's shooting at.

IMHO, as a member of a profession (other than education) that regularly deals with school security issues, I believe on balance your kids will be safer locked in a classroom than out in the hall hoping they don't meet the shooter(s) before they make it out the door. (And then hope there aren't other shooters outside watching the doors -- don't forget that other school shooting where the kid pulled a false alarm, then shot the kids as they exited the school.)



I don't buy it. all a lock down does is sequester the kids in nice little killing zones for either an active shooter or a terrorist. To quote Monty Python's Flying Circus "Run, Run Away". My niece,nephew,and sister ,students and school employee respectively have been told to get free and clear ASAP. Also if need be because they don't get out we are prepared to extract them. This is not just for active shooters but any type of situation where the family may choose to bug out or fort up and the school has went into lock down mode. The kids and my sister come out nicely if possible but they come out. Recently after re reading Terror at Beslan this was reinforced. My town has a bunch of Bozo's on the PD who aren't ready for a hardcore gangbanger more or less a terrorist situation.Many of you will be critical of this stance so be it you do what works for you but I know many people some with inside knowledge some just tuned in citizens who have the same policy. The school is not worried about the childern's safety they are worried about liability and appearing to have done something. If the schools was serious about security they would have armed security and teachers, and wouldn't be gun free kill zones.

dfaugh
March 4, 2006, 09:22 AM
once again for explaining my point, much more clearly than I managed to do!

Maxwell
March 4, 2006, 10:34 AM
Like Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold were trampled?

Like Thomas Solomon was trampled?

Like Robert Steinhaeuser was trampled?

Well, I would prefer to look at it as "In what way can we reduce the number of potential losses". Would you believe its possible to have a school shooting in a place with unarmed staff and NOT have anyone get killed?

What would be the lowball figure for casualties when everything goes right?

You got a shooter, maybe more than one, running loose in a school. Because none of the staff are armed, they've got free range for however long it takes the police to get there. Nevermind the fact he could have a bomb or start a fire.

Even with lockdown kids can get trapped in the hall. Then theres the risk of officers entering the building and shooting the wrong person or getting injured themselves. Finally of course, theres the shooters that will probly have to be put down.

Say we start with 10 as an "acceptable" number of injuries/deaths from attempting to recover this situation.

If you lose less than 10 in the evacuation effort (run/scream past them, or avoid the shooter entirely by using alternate paths to the outside) wouldnt that be better than having a nutcase stumble on a room with 20 trapped kids?

TexasRifleman
March 4, 2006, 10:38 AM
While I've enjoyed reading all the tactics in this thread, they don't address the REAL purpose of these lockdown exercises.

These are not to protect the children.

These practices only exist to give a false sense of security to the sheeple and soccer moms. Nothing more.

If they were genuinely concerned they would allow the teachers and adminstrators to be armed and offer some real chance of protecting the classroom.

Boxerrider
March 4, 2006, 01:14 PM
There are lots of reasons for locking down. During most of them you are not going to be better off running away. We did it this week because a student had a seizure in the hallway a few minutes before lunch. I'm dealing with her, contacting EMS and the school nurse. I don't need anyone running through the hall.

As posted earlier when bad things happen time and information are precious. The number of types of possible emergencies is endless. The most important thing is buying time so you can decide what needs to be done. Shooter outside or in one of the other buildings? I'm staying in my room with it's concrete block walls and steel door. Shooter in my building? Our doors are locked all of the time, fire-safe knobs. Bullet-proof? Not completely. There's a small reinforced glass window that could be broken through to reach in and open the door. Whatever pokes through there meets me. Yes, I would feel a lot better with my Colt instead of my metal stool, but the path to my students goes through me regardless.

Dictator? Yes, I am. A kind and generous one whenever possible.

LawDog
March 4, 2006, 01:45 PM
If they were genuinely concerned they would allow the teachers and adminstrators to be armed and offer some real chance of protecting the classroom.

I don't know about you, but I'm always armed. Having, or not having, a firearm doesn't have a thing to do with it.

And it perturbs me greatly to see a culture developing that has decided that the only way to protect yourself is with a firearm.

A critter spends ten minutes breaking into a locked classroom. Should we beat him to death with a computer when he enters?

NO! We don't have firearms, so we're not armed.

A stiff dose of Lysol in the kisser, followed by a beat-down with desk legs?

NO! They won't let us have firearms, so we're helpless.

Kip Kunkel got treated to a hands-on demonstration of the 'ground-and-pound' technique. Be a whole heck of a lot less school shootings if people would quit deciding that a lack of a firearm makes them helpless, and do something.

YES, I am irritated by the fact that folks can't carry on school property. I am MORE irritated by the mindset that had decided that without a firearm, people are helpless.

You can't carry on school property. This is a Bad Thing. This is an infringment on your Second Amendment Rights. Now, improvise, adapt and bloody well overcome.

LawDog

the 22 junkie
March 4, 2006, 01:49 PM
+ 1 LawDog

GruntII
March 4, 2006, 08:19 PM
LD It's about instilling an attitude of dependance and helplessness in the up coming generations. My locals have a policy of not releasing students during a lock down to parents or family.It's about how the current society creates victim zones by restricting access and ability to have non improvised tools to protect oursleves and loved ones.

Hawkmoon
March 4, 2006, 08:44 PM
Releasing students to parents during a lockdown?

How the **** is that going to work? The whole idea of a lockdown is to reduce the number of available targets and to give the first responders a clear area in which to operate. It would be bad enough to allow students to move around in this environment. Now you want to bring parents into it? AFAIK during any situation that would call for a lockdown, parents would not even be allowed onto the school property, and might not be allowed within a quarter mile perimeter around the school property.

Talk about a Chinese fire drill! (Apologies to any readers of Chinese ethnicity, I'm just using an expression often used to convey the notion of total chaos.)

Maxwell
March 4, 2006, 09:01 PM
And it perturbs me greatly to see a culture developing that has decided that the only way to protect yourself is with a firearm.

When you ask someone to do a job you give them the tools to do it, or your inviting failure.

What you suggest is that giving a teacher a gun may not be the most realistic way to solve this problem.
Then you ask the 50 year old schoolmarm to simply engage in melee combat with a much younger, armed, agressor.

That might not work out so well.


Yes you can use common household items to defend yourself, but you can do the job much better with a purpose made tool.

If your doing lockdown you reinforce the door, up the number of security cameras, and build alternate exite routes.

I say you should also provide teachers with an armed option reguardless. So if that critter starts to use a crowbar on the door, you can blast through it with a 12 gauge instead of attempting to ambush your gunman with your wireless keyboard.

Grey54956
March 4, 2006, 09:29 PM
School lockdowns are not necessarily a bad idea, but there is a significant risk if this is the only option that the school has. If your only response to a school shooting situation is the lockdown, then a shooter or group of shooters is going to be able to plan around that plan. If they are looking to maximize casualties, they will know exactly how to do it.

The problem is that schools do not offer multiple responses to threat scenarios. While lockdown may be good in some situations, evacuation may be necessary in others.

Unfortunately, schools are not usually constructed with this in mind. If so, you would see schools where the school rooms have secondary exits, emergency corridors, and lockable hall gates.

The last time I was in a school, I saw that short of windows, there was only one point of entry into a school room. If the shooter is in the building, the safest place is outside...

Larry Ashcraft
March 4, 2006, 09:36 PM
These practices only exist to give a false sense of security to the sheeple and soccer moms. Nothing more.
I disagree. My daughter is a second grade teacher and I believe she would stop at nothing to defend the twenty little charges she is given every day. Nothing!

I guarantee.

Euclidean
March 4, 2006, 10:13 PM
So much here I agree with and don't...

Look, I've taken a map of my building and my room and looked at it. There is not a quick enough evacuation route. It's not in the cards.

My school is designed to be a school not a fortress. There are lots of blind corners... yes I know slice the pie but try doing that with 20-40 of your charges in tow.

Now if I were in one of the science labs with the windows on the external wall, I'd have those kids out of there and off campus if I thought I could get away with it. But I can't do that, I'm right in the middle of the building.

Look, if I lock my door, which is solid core, reinforced glass, deadbolted, and can't be credit carded (I've had some of my "darling angel" students try, and you can't tell me they don't know how), I have effectively locked those kids inside a concrete box.

That's way better than trying to lead them to safety around blind corners. I don't mind risking my own stupid self to go out there and use my key to drop the security barriers to prevent intruders from passing into my hall, but I'm not taking them out there with me so they too can get shot.

FWIW every teacher in the hall is free to request the key to drop the security barrier and only 3 of us in the hall have one. I don't think most people think about it.

Look, I'm aware strategy and tactics like using the fact that I can pass through several rooms with my keys and I know the layout of the building (such as the hidden roof access), I could have a slight strategic advantage, but the problem is I'm not equipped at my job in order to deal with a shooter. I can be the most tactical guy in the world, but if Joe Terrorist is letting loose with a 12 gauge, my Spyderco just ain't gonna cut it no matter how smart I think I am.

My best weapon is the building itself. I simply lack the option to make a meaningful effort to neutralize the threat.

The other problem here is, I personally am willing to do this. Now the thing is I don't know a lot of instructors who wouldn't step in front of a muzzle to put one more thing between the shooter and the kids... but I do know a lot of instructors who just don't want to think about something so awful happening. I know even more who would freak out at the thought of actually trying to take the threat down.

I personally have not developed a plan to take the threat down beyond the contigency that the shooting starts in my room and there's no time to do anything but go for it.

I realize objectively that the odds of this situation happening are poor indeed, but I also realize I couldn't live with myself if I didn't TRY to do SOMETHING to prepare for it, and if it did happen I'd have to DO something or I'd never forgive myself for not trying.

To live each day of your life knowing you abandoned the most sacred of duties... what kind of life is that?

As for teacher CCW, I have mulled over it many times.

At first I realized how much I get touched/examined and wondered if it was viable.

However I soon came to realize regardless of whether or not I perceived it was safe, it was my classroom and I am a human being the last time I checked. I deserve the dignity to decide that for myself regardless of my decision. I am the one who has to live with the consequences.

After having more personal CCW experience, I believe I could successfully CCW in a classroom. I'd have to invest in a different gun, but I would. I'd also practice concealment and the like with a blue gun before I actually tried it with a live weapon.

I have a valid certification to teach and a to carry a concealed weapon. I figure I'm as good a candidate as anybody to work out all the kinks. And honestly, if it were a matter of getting some kind of certification or training to CCW in the classroom, I would get it at my own expense.

This model is the only one that will work because it's voluntary and free to the taxpayers. The only other viable strategy is teachers have service weapons like IRS agents or something. You aren't going to get school teachers to carry service weapons at all grade levels across the board for a plethora of reasons.

What we're doing now obviously isn't working at any rate.

geekWithA.45
March 4, 2006, 10:34 PM
Jury's out for me.

After reading the thread, I can see _some_ utility to lockdown in _some_ "normal" circumstances.

It would have played right into the bad guys hands in Beslan, or an attack by any group who's read the Al-Q manual.

In Beslan, the kids who lived are the kids who ran, ran fast, and ran early. Similiarly, the Al-Q strategy calls for rapid forceful consolodation of power, followed by a horror show.

http://feveredrants.blogspot.com/2002_08_25_feveredrants_archive.html#85382919

Euclidean
March 4, 2006, 10:54 PM
We can be defeatists all day long.

cracked butt
March 5, 2006, 12:38 AM
My best weapon is the building itself.
That's pretty well said. I think if you distill the situation down, TIME is the weapon that is initially in the shooter's favor, if you put TIME back in your favor by getting the targets inside a reinforced box, the shooter loses.

akodo
March 5, 2006, 02:48 PM
lockdown regarding a medical emergency in the hallway.

Seems to me while there is a reasonable desire to limit hallway traffic in such an incident, why a lockdown? Why hid kids from view? Besides, kids can still get in the hallway if they want, as the door is only locked to people in the corridor. To me, this is akin to deciding to let school out 2 hours early because a storm is comming by pulling the fire alarm.

Lawdog, don't you think the 10 minutes you theoretically have would be better invested in getting students out the window rather than create weapons from classroom objects?

Euclidean makes a good argument, but this is because he is actively thinking, addressing the situation, and seems willing to make change based on what is going on around him. Not all schools are of the same layout and with security doors, or in rooms without 1st or 2nd floor windows. The scenario he plays out, yes, HE would make the right decision regarding many threats to lock the door go out flip the barrier himself, then return to class. However, this is entirely different from the simple doors with big windows that I see in most every school I enter. It seems to me each teacher should be required to assess their specific room or rooms, physical condition, age of students, etc, and decide a specific plan. This plan may well be 'hide in the corner' but in case of windows, or being the classroom right next to the main door, it may well be, check, give all clear, flee quietly.

1911JMB
March 5, 2006, 07:54 PM
At the school I went to, in the event of a school shooting, one of many drug dealers packing heat would have gunned the shooter down. But of course nobody in charge would admit to that, and so we did those stupid lock down drills. Well, more accurately, I went to the principal, and told him that I would not take part in practicing the very suicidal idiocy that cost 13 people their lives at columbine. I told him that I wanted to have a meeting with him and the chief of police to discuss the absurdity of their plan. I was simply given permission not to participate, not that I would have anyway.

I have always maintained that the best thing to do in the event of being unarmed and getting trapped in an office/school shooting is to strip a power cord, wait behind a corner, and hook the ends of the wire to each of the assailants ears, which would certainly cause instant incapacitation, and probably death. In a school, there are often other dangerous objects available, namely in woodshop, foods, and science classes. Of course fighting back with inferior weaponry is a risky move, but I'd rather do that then get blown to bits while cowering underneath a table.

GruntII
March 6, 2006, 04:18 AM
BY geek with a 45
It would have played right into the bad guys hands in Beslan, or an attack by any group who's read the Al-Q manual.

In Beslan, the kids who lived are the kids who ran, ran fast, and ran early. Similiarly, the Al-Q strategy calls for rapid forceful consolodation of power, followed by a horror show.

http://feveredrants.blogspot.com/200....html#85382919

Good points. I recieved a similar training brief. I have also seen about 10 minutes of the 60 plus hours of tape taken out of the camps in A stan. It worries me greatly as most PDs, Boards of education , and governments in this country look at this from a liability aspect instead of a survival aspect for the people who have to lock themselves into rooms (ever so helpful for hostage takers). I realize active shooter response has become one of the new buzz words in training and planning for coppers but if this sort of thing is done by a hard gang (MS-13) or a dedicated individual or two who put any thought into it lockdown and normal active shooter response will just get lots of folks killed. And God help us if the pros'(Terrs) ever run such an op. wrapping people in violent situations into nice self contained packages is just about the most reckless thing I can imagine. The worse thing is so many people practice this tripe and then when the short comings are brought up they say "it's okay it will never happen here" which is about the most unprofessional, most ameteurish thing that can be said.

cracked butt
March 6, 2006, 04:40 AM
Yeesh. Reading that blog pretty much makes a school a cattle slaughtering pen. A school would be an ideal target for terrorist- nobody is armed because of strict and highly punitive laws and the victims are trained to put themselves in easily controlled groups.

I never considered a school attack by Al-q, but now it seems liek the ideal place for an attack on our soil by small cells. I hope (wish) that there are terrorists at Gitmo that are getting their fingernails pulled out right now in attempts to gain information from them.

TexasRifleman
March 6, 2006, 08:58 AM
Posted by LawDog:

You can't carry on school property. This is a Bad Thing. This is an infringment on your Second Amendment Rights. Now, improvise, adapt and bloody well overcome.

You are right that there are alternatives to firearms, but the real benefit of allowing teachers and staff to be armed is the deterrent factor, not the usefulness of the firearm itself.

Sure there are many ways to fight back, but if a student is considering going on a rampage, the knowledge that every teacher is armed might persuade him to change his plan.

It has done wonders for car jackings here in Texas :evil:

nfl1990
March 6, 2006, 02:36 PM
I don't know about you, but I'm always armed. Having, or not having, a firearm doesn't have a thing to do with it.
And it perturbs me greatly to see a culture developing that has decided that the only way to protect yourself is with a firearm.
A critter spends ten minutes breaking into a locked classroom. Should we beat him to death with a computer when he enters?
NO! We don't have firearms, so we're not armed.
A stiff dose of Lysol in the kisser, followed by a beat-down with desk legs?
NO! They won't let us have firearms, so we're helpless.

So you are saying that you think a chair leg provides a good means of defending your self from an attacker who had a 12-gauge, or a semi-auto rifle?
Do you own an HD gun? If so why? Couldn't you just use a baseball bat?

SapperLeader
March 6, 2006, 07:25 PM
I don't know about you, but I'm always armed. Having, or not having, a firearm doesn't have a thing to do with it.
And it perturbs me greatly to see a culture developing that has decided that the only way to protect yourself is with a firearm.
A critter spends ten minutes breaking into a locked classroom. Should we beat him to death with a computer when he enters?
NO! We don't have firearms, so we're not armed.
A stiff dose of Lysol in the kisser, followed by a beat-down with desk legs?
NO! They won't let us have firearms, so we're helpless.

I think a lot of people are missing or twisting Lawdogs point. He’s not saying that these options are better than a firearm, he is saying that just because you dont have a firearm it doesn’t mean your defenseless. I carry all the time, but I had to stow the ccw many times because I was going to a school event for my little sister. There’s all sort of legal everyday items you can defend yourself with, and there is always improvised weapons around you in your environment. Where there’s a will, there’s a weapon, and you can fight back as long your blood is pumping and there is breath in your body.

As far as the lockdown goes, I think its a decent answer to a scary question. Would I prefer armed teachers, and security in the schools? Sure I would, but even if that happens tomorrow, the lockdown is a good way to account and secure children while someone deals with the crisis.

James T Thomas
March 7, 2006, 09:29 PM
My comments carry some cynacism in them, however, all my grey hair entitles me, so please bear with me.

The many responding teachers such as "Migoi" and others have enthusiasm for parents, community groups, students, ect. to become involved in their schools at school board meetings and open houses, but being involved is just another way of saying let us hear your gripe, but we know what you don't -that the decisions have already been made!

That includes the decisions for such crises that incur the lockdown.
The people who have been given authority, that is appointed positions,
are arrogantly sure of their competence, after all, they are in the position of authority, aren't they?
And so, the school admistrators, and law enforcement officials will let you air your disapproval at the public meetings, but, for sure, the "fate has been already accomplished."

The altruistic teachers responding here who would sacrifice themselves to save their charges would do just that. Sacrifice themselves, but that would not save one poor child. The spirited officers who would aggressively be there to save the kids, would in all reality, be restrained beforehand by their superior officers, who by the nature of rising through the ranks have become less and less; serve and protect oriented, and more and more politically motivated,to the point of delay and await asessment (the brass mulling over what would sound best for them) and gather information (what does the city hall boss want done). -Reguardless of all the charge in plans that have been declared.

Sorry, I warned you about the cynicism, but if you live long enough you learn some things about the human race and the inner workings of actuality.

My own advise, based on my life experience? I would advise my two sons to escape and evade! My military background which has always been correct in the dangerous situations I have faced tells me that if you are unable to shoot, move, or communicate, you chances of survival are lessened.
To be corraled into a classroom to await the Cavalry is foolishness.
Just how many threads have been posted here about a cop never being around when you need them, or just how long it takes for the police to arrive after 911 notification? Even ten minutes (and that is gracious, by today's undermanned standards) -can be a "lifetime."
The exception might be with the very young who would require adult leadership; the self sacrificing -bless them, teachers to shepherd the children to safety instead of bewilderment. But not to gather them into a herd for slaughter.

I think it is less of a mass killing situation to shoot fleeing targets than the ones who compliantly sit down in a group for arcade shooting.
The presupposition of those that support lockdown is that rescue will arrive and be effective.
What have the past instances shown? After every one of those, the politicians, police, and school admistrators have all, in each and every one of those terrible shootings, assured the public that things have changed, that new tactics are in place, that plans have been developed, so just trust them, and be assured that this will not happen ever again.

We "slept at dawn in Pearl Harbour", right up to the situation after the attack on the World Trade Towers has only served to convince me that the "human factor" is alive and well. Aren't all the debacles at the airports; shoe bombs, media expose' of this weakness and that, the "Portgate" occurence as it is called, enough to justify some skepticism? Just trust them they say.
They have your best interests at heart.

Will you bet your life, or rather the life of your child or grandchild on the word of one of those "in authority?"

It has been said over and over, right here on THR, your security is in you own hands. It is your responsibility.

V4Vendetta
March 7, 2006, 10:12 PM
I remember at my old school, the chairs we had were made of heavy iron. They would be a good improvised weapon though a pain to sit in.

Maxwell
March 8, 2006, 12:23 AM
he is saying that just because you dont have a firearm it doesn’t mean your defenseless.

I agree, but in this context I think we're walking a long way east to get west.

Lockdown sounds like a ready made disaster. All the gunmen have to do is show up and you take yourselfs as unarmed hostages inside a building they will soon control.
How do you keep a door from being breached with a crowbar?
How do you help a teacher who might have a madman on his hands?
How do you stop them from opening room after room to exicute the captives on national TV?

To avoid arming a teacher we still have to spend money on hardware and time for training. Id say you would have spend less for guns if we did that in the first place.

If youve got a pissed woman with a gun behind some of those barricaded doors, the balance of power in this situation shifts dramaticly. You go from "ready-made hostage crises" to "assault on armed fortress" without needing that many weapons or that much money.

I still say outside is the best place to be in almost any emergency, but if you must be inside then get the right tools and do it properly.

grimjaw
March 8, 2006, 01:22 AM
You can't carry on school property. This is a Bad Thing. This is an infringment on your Second Amendment Rights. Now, improvise, adapt and bloody well overcome.

+2 LawDog, and thanks for the reminder.

jmm

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