Pulled over Ticket then Questioned?????


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Dogmatix
March 3, 2006, 07:27 PM
Hey Everyone,

Okay everyone I just want to know if my anger is justified or unjustified. The other day I was driving home on a two lane highway at night and was pulled over for speeding. I was doing "76 in a 65" I guess the speed limit drops a few miles per hour on the road I was on at night. Oh well, my bad. Anyway, the Highway Patrol Officer came up to my window as they do usually and informed me of the speedlimit then took my licence and all that jazz back to his car. He told me he'd only ticket me for "75 in a 65" that way I didn't get points on my record. "Okay, thanks?" I say.

Now for the odd part. He sits back in his car for like I swear to God 15 minutes, then out of no where, he turns ever freaking light on his car on and just beams the back of my car. I mean it was so bright I had to turn all my mirrors away and hold my head off to the side to avoid the light. Then he comes back to my car 5 minutes later and says "Sorry about the lights, Your drivers license flagged my computer saying you have a CCW permit. Are you carrying now?" To which I replied "yes? why?" Then he proceeded to question me, "Why do you have a CCW permit? Why are you Carrying? What are you Carrying?" etc....I was absolutely floored. I couldnt believe I was being interrogated for speeding and having a CCW. ***? Does this seem odd to anyone else? Should I have told him to back the "F" off? Do I have to admit to carrying? Isn't that the freaking point of a CCW, that i get to freaking conceal that ?????

Let me know if i'm justified...or if i'm just being a little overly pissed off?

Thanks all....oh and btw...it was only a 20 dollar ticket...first speeding ticket ever and i was honest about not knowing about the speedlimit...i think i should have gotten a warning...cops anger me sometimes.

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boofus
March 3, 2006, 07:29 PM
Maybe he was wondering what kind of piece you had. Some cops are interested in the latest and greatest fads too.

Snookay
March 3, 2006, 07:30 PM
yes you should of told him to F off. Only time u need to tell him about your CCW is IF he asks "any weapons in the car."

Dogmatix
March 3, 2006, 07:31 PM
What was the point of Nailing my car with ever freaking light he had available to him? I mean I was lit up better than an airport runway trying to land a crashing 747 or something...stupid analogy i know but work with me here.

R.H. Lee
March 3, 2006, 07:32 PM
Maybe he just moved to MT from CA. :p

azredhawk44
March 3, 2006, 07:33 PM
Don't know about montana, but in some states it is your responsibility as a CCW holder to notify an officer that you are armed if he has a legitimate reason to stop you or detain you.

Failing to do so can also be prosecuted.

Haven't taken CCW course yet, but I believe that is the case according to friends who have taken it in AZ.

He was probably a bit upset that you didn't inform him voluntarily.

aguyindallas
March 3, 2006, 07:39 PM
Well, in Texas, you must inform IF you are carrying. The DL System and/or disptach will tell them anyway. If you fail to tell them, I think they can suspend your CHL for a period of time. I might be wrong about that. You do not have to inform them if you are NOT carrying.

Now, my personal opinion is to just hand them my CHL along with my DL and inform of my carry status (armed or disarmed)...carrying or not. From what I can tell, it puts them at ease and you are probably more likely to get a slap on the back and be sent on your way.

Yeah, I think it was a bit out of line for him to be jacking you up like that, but the other thing is that if he knew up front, none of it would probably happened.

I know there are some people out here that think my opinion is stupid, but hey, its mine.

YMMV

exoduster18
March 3, 2006, 07:40 PM
Check your CCW laws and find out there. Some states require you to let LEO's know. Check www.packing.org and see what they tell you about it.

yesterdaysyouth
March 3, 2006, 07:43 PM
20 dollars for 10 over? damn i gotta move....

Dogmatix
March 3, 2006, 07:43 PM
Now, my personal opinion is to just hand them my CHL along with my DL and inform of my carry status (armed or disarmed)...carrying or not. From what I can tell, it puts them at ease and you are probably more likely to get a slap on the back and be sent on your way.

I like that idea, I'll do that next time. I guess it just caught me off guard to be interrogated, and as far as montana law goes with a CCW I was never informed about having to make an officer aware of my status.

M2 Carbine
March 3, 2006, 07:45 PM
It sounds like he was way out of line.

"Why do you have a CCW permit? is none of his damned business.
I would have been polite, but I would have asked him why he was asking.:mad:

In TX you show your CHL when you show your driver's license, if armed, but I would show nine anyhow.

I've never had ANY problem with any LEO since years ago when I got my CHL.

As a matter of fact I've been stopped at least 13 times and never even got a ticket (except warnings). Only once was I asked what I was carrying. I think the LEO was a shooter.

migoi
March 3, 2006, 07:48 PM
From a cop I would think that is a very easy question to answer: "Why officer, the same reason you carry a firearm. There are some folks out there that would just as soon kill you as look at you. You carry a firearm to make sure you make it home every night, so do I."

Of course being in a state that interprets the word "may" to be defined as "not ever in your lifetime", I pretty much just have to take my chances.

migoi

DKSuddeth
March 3, 2006, 07:52 PM
I believe that MT does not require you to inform unless the officer asks you if you have a permit but I can't find anywhere in the code that states this, still, It is usually better to inform to keep issues from occurring.

riverdog
March 3, 2006, 07:56 PM
"Why do you have a CCW permit?" Because without one I'd be breaking the law.

"Why are you Carrying?" Because in Montana it's legal.

"What are you Carrying?" Why do you ask?

Richard.Howe
March 3, 2006, 07:56 PM
My question to folks generally is, "Why would you not tell the LEO?"

Unless he is in the small minority of gun-fearing/hating wieners, most LEO's I know actually look kindly upon CHL holders. You've had (and passed) a background check. You voluntarily paid hard-earned money to comply with the law through obtaining a license.

In short, you're one of the good guys. And if a LEO knows you're one of the good guys, it's easier for him to believe that whatever law you just broke was probably a mistake.

If I was a LEO on a dark night, and someone I had just pulled over failed to tell me that he was a CHL holder and was carrying -- and in addition had failed to turn on his dome light and keep his hands on the wheel -- my blood would run a little cold, too...:)

Be careful!

Rich

George S.
March 3, 2006, 08:00 PM
While MT laws may require you to present your CCW to an LEO if you are stopped for whatever reason and are carrying (and checking www.packing.org is a good way to find out), I guess I would be upset if I was asked why I had a permit or why I was carrying. Having a valid permit makes me "legal" in the eyes of the state and that is all the LEO should have been concerned with at that point.

The "why's" are really none of his business and I probably would have written a letter to the Chief of the Montana Highway Patrol along with a copy to the LEO's district commander and complained about this guy's questioning.

I wonder what he would have done if you were not carrying at the time? Berated you for having a CCW and not being armed??

As far as turning on his lights, the fact that he has stopped somebody with a weapon may be simply a Patrol requirement in that situation. Here in WA even simple traffic stops along the freeway usually have the State Patrol cars using all of their lights; it's probably more of a safety issue for both the motorist and the officer than the situation.

Zundfolge
March 3, 2006, 08:10 PM
...that is a very easy question to answer: "Why officer, the same reason you carry a firearm...

Wrong answer.

Now you've gone from "fine upstanding citizen" to "rogue wannabe cop".


Best answer I've heard is; "...better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it, officer, wouldn't you agree?"

Or just give him this look :scrutiny:

Kentak
March 3, 2006, 08:16 PM
According to Packing.org, you do not have to inform LE about your CCW status. Lots of states do have that requirement. I guess he was lighting you up to make sure you weren't going to do anything that might endanger him while he finished his business with you. I think he was out of line to ask those questions. It would have been interesting to know what would have happened if you had refused to answer. Hopefully, nothing bad.

K

Shootcraps
March 3, 2006, 08:22 PM
I'd be pissed too. He was acting like an @$$. I would have gotten his badge number and reported him to his supervisor.

Unless he is in the small minority of gun-fearing/hating wieners

Sounds like he is.

secamp32
March 3, 2006, 08:27 PM
I guess he got scared when he found out you had a gun. You probably better off telling him up front that you are carrying.

Shootcraps
March 3, 2006, 08:34 PM
You probably better off telling him up front that you are carrying.


Sure. Give up your rights to appease a "gun-fearing/hating wiener"? :cuss:

I don't think so Tim. :mad:

Standing Wolf
March 3, 2006, 08:37 PM
I doubt there's ever been a shortage of nosy people.

gezzer
March 3, 2006, 08:41 PM
Sure. Give up your rights to appease a "gun-fearing/hating wiener"?

+1

He knows you have a license SO WHAT?

In a Free State one does not have to bow to the lords.

PlayboyPenguin
March 3, 2006, 08:49 PM
Geez, it sounds to me like the LEO was polite even after he found out the guy was carrying a weapon. The lights was a good idea. If it had been me I would have done the same. As for the questions I do not see any indication that he was being an a$$. The way the guy phrased it he seemed to be quite polite and still let him off with a small ticket when he could have nailed him for doing in excess of 10 mph over the limit. As for the what and why are you carrying I would have asked the same thing to see whether you were a currier or some other job where you would be required to be carrying. I know some officers asked this and if your answer was.."I volunteer for my local sheriff's office", or something similar, your ticket often turned into a warning. How did some people turn this into a reason to be a rude, abrasive jerk by saying something like "same reason you are" or making making him a "gun-fearing/hating wiener"? Some people....:rolleyes: Then they wonder why things go badly for them and people treat them like jerks.

Tomekeuro85
March 3, 2006, 08:49 PM
I think the point of lighting up your car was to be able to see what you were doing just to make sure you weren't about to take out the gun or somehting. He may have been questioning you just out of curiosity, not to be mr. tough guy interrogator. Think of it as when you go to the range and ask someone something about a gun they have there... maybe he was just doing the same thing. No need to bash the cops for being cautious. Although you may see it as offensive, he may see it as a necessary thing to keep himself alive.

12-34hom
March 3, 2006, 09:03 PM
Man, gotta love those takedown lights.....;)

You were presented a perfect opportunity to state your case as to why you carry CCW. Instead of getting angry, in a calm and professional manner explain your reasoning behind your CCW status.

Telling this officer to "back the F off" would be a real bad idea. Why get snotty while legally carrying? This is not the proper response from a responsible gun owner.

As far as getting a written warning - that falls under officer discretion.

12-34hom.

Dogmatix
March 3, 2006, 09:06 PM
I agree with most of the posts about him being cautious and yes I know why he turned on the lights, but also like posted earlier, a person with a CCW has gone through all the questions before and the background checks. Why is there a need for more questions? I applied for the permit and got it, meaning other than minor traffic violations (which is obvious :) ) i'm a law abiding citizen. It's hard to express the way he asked the questions, but they sounded to me as him being overly cautious and a little bit of a jerk. He later eased the questions and once he realized i wasn't going to blow his ass away, he turned it into a "oh whatcha packin" convo. I just don't understand the badgering in the first place. It's over now, I just wanted to see what your guy's opinions were. Thanks for the posts.

JMusic
March 3, 2006, 09:08 PM
Common sense. You should have told the officer right away. Its not funny what some people here are saying. Men and ladies die every year from someone concealing a firearm and shooting them with it when they have the chance. Tell the LEO you are packing immediatly and things will go alot smoother. The lights are meant to blind you. He became suspicious once he found out you had a permit. His or her questions have to be why did this guy not tell me up front. What do you think would hapen if he had caught a glimps of your weapon. This is a dangerous game to play let them know up front no matter if you are leagally bound to say so or not. If I approached a car and saw someone packing it would not be a pleasant experience. His actions were for your safety and his. Thje questions was to try to ascertain why you chose to keep it a secret.:banghead:
Jim

chrisTx
March 3, 2006, 09:08 PM
if he does something different in the middle of his stop because he discovered you have a CCW permit, then that trooper's life span is not very long.

you should treat every stop like the person you're stopping is armed. be cautious on every stop. when i find out someone has a CHL, it makes me feel better. i've never had a single problem out of a CHL holder; ever.

Lupinus
March 3, 2006, 09:09 PM
a lot of states have a duty to notify. As to his questions way out of line, teh answers to none of them are any of his damn buisness

"Why do you have a CCW permit?" Because the boneheads in the state capital made me get one to exorcise my god given right to self preservation without being a criminal

"Why are you Carrying?" Because I can and choose too

"What are you Carrying?" A gun

migoi
March 3, 2006, 09:29 PM
are important, Zundfolge. Taking part of my statement and quoting it without the rest is intellectually dishonest.


Wrong answer.

Now you've gone from "fine upstanding citizen" to "rogue wannabe cop".

The rest is important too. If I had wanted to express just that part I would have written just that part.

sheesh...

migoi

usmarine0352_2005
March 3, 2006, 09:40 PM
This is hilarious:

"Why do you have a CCW permit?" Because without one I'd be breaking the law.

"Why are you Carrying?" Because in Montana it's legal.

"What are you Carrying?" Why do you ask?

- His lights are for ur safety, and SOP. (In MN they do it for regular things, like "Speeding Tickets".

- Some states you do NOT have to tell him your carrying. (I would NOT unless, he asked. - WHY GET HIM ALL AGITATED FOR NO REASON.)

Ralph
March 3, 2006, 09:45 PM
In Michigan

About three months after getting my ccw I was stopped by the state police, at night, for a burned out headlight. I did not tell the officer that I had a ccw, after taking my drivers license to his vehicle he returns and reminds me that I need to tell him when stopped. Asks if I'm carrying, well it's behind seat in breif case, actually within reach. No problem, he was very nice about it considering what he could have done, read on:

Proper Conduct During Encounters with Police in Michigan

Responsibilities of Individuals With a CCW License:

1. An individual licensed to carry a concealed pistol who is stopped by a police officer (traffic stop or otherwise) shall immediately disclose to the police officer that he or she is carrying a concealed pistol either on their person or in their motor vehicle.

* Failure to disclose this information to a police officer carries the following penalties:

* First offense = State Civil Infraction - $500 fine and 6-month CCW license suspension.
* Second offense = State Civil Infraction - $1000 fine and CCW license revocation.

2. An individual licensed to carry a concealed pistol shall have the license in his or her possession at all times he or she is carrying a concealed pistol.

* Failure to possess CCW license when carrying a concealed pistol is a State Civil Infraction and a $100.00 fine.

3. Upon request, an individual licensed to carry a concealed pistol shall show both of the following to a police officer:

* His or her license to carry a concealed pistol
* His or her driver license or personal identification card

* Failure to show CCW license and Michigan driver license or Michigan personal identification card when carrying a concealed pistol is a State Civil Infraction and $100.00 fine.

4. A pistol carried in violation of numbers 1, 2, or 3 is subject to immediate seizure by a police officer.

* If a weapon is seized for failure to possess a CCW license while carrying a concealed pistol:

* Individual has 45 days in which to display their license to carry a concealed pistol to the law enforcement agency that seized the pistol and the pistol shall be returned.

* If the individual does not display their license to carry a concealed pistol within 45 days the pistol is subject to forfeiture.

To Ensure Safety During Police Encounters

If you are stopped by a law enforcement officer you should:

* Keep your hands where an officer can see them.
* Cooperate fully with the police officer.
* If you have a gun with you, tell the police officer as soon as possible.
* Do not make any quick movements, especially toward the weapon.
* If in a vehicle at night, turn on your vehicle’s dome light.

In certain circumstances, a law enforcement officer may take temporary possession of the weapon during interaction with the individual to ensure the safety of the officer and others. The police officer will return the pistol at the end of the stop unless the individual is being charged with a violation of the act or any other law that allows for the weapon to be seized.

Jeff White
March 3, 2006, 09:56 PM
I work mainly at night, and I use my takedown lights and shine the spotlight in the mirror of every car I stop. Although I do it as soon as the car stops, not halfway through the contact.

The officer was probably just curious and making conversation, I don't see why you got so defensive. There are all kinds of reasons why it took 15 minutes to write the ticket. It could have been the computer was slow and he didn't get a response back right away. If he had an MDC in the car, it could be he lost the connection and had to re-log on.

A normal traffic stop for me is about 8 minutes from initiating the stop to completing it. But radio or computer problems can increase the time.

Jeff

M2 Carbine
March 3, 2006, 09:59 PM
It appears that there's a problem in some states because neither the police or the carry licensee knows what the hell they are supposed to do during a traffic stop.:rolleyes:

In Texas it's spelled out very clearly what each person is supposed to do and it's rare that I ever hear of a problem. The fact is, in most every case I've heard, and the times I have been stopped, the LEO appears to be put at ease when you hand him your carry license.

In any case I think the LEO in question was acting like an ass.
It's none of his business, "Why do you have a CCW permit? Why are you Carrying?, that's between you and the state.
Or if he's just that scared of a person with a state issued carry license I think he needs to be in some other kind of work.

Tomekeuro85
March 3, 2006, 10:16 PM
Jeff, your reply is exactly my thought. I don't understand why some of these people here are so anti-police. What if some of you went up to another shooter at the range and asked "What caliber is that" and they answered "mind your own business". If you wouldn't do that to another shooter, why do it to a police officer?

Cops are your friends. You talk bad about them now, but WHO oh WHO would be the first person you called if someone broke into your house???

modifiedbrowning
March 3, 2006, 10:18 PM
In MT you do not have to notify a Police Officer if you have a CCW. Why would you have to, when you can have a gun hidden in the car without a CCW.
Afaik your CCW is not linked to your drivers license. I have never heard of them being connected in any way. :confused:
Dogmatix, what highway were you driving on?

Dogmatix
March 3, 2006, 10:18 PM
In no way was I bad mouthing cops. Sorry if it seems that way. I only bad mouth BOzeman MT cops...because...well they dont know the laws and actually are not on your side...expecially a 23 yr old male. like myself.

Travis Lee
March 3, 2006, 10:20 PM
AZ does not require notification....
NM does not, either, but the license is directly hooked into the DMV,
so a police officer gets that info when he runs your license.....
that is, if the system is up and running properly.

For myself, I think it's better to hand the officer my CCW rather then get a surprise from the computer system.

--Travis--

Dogmatix
March 3, 2006, 10:26 PM
I was on highway 282 i believe...the one that runs from the wheat montana exit all the way to helena...i was right next to Canyon Ferry Lake actually. and he said my licence flagged him with a CCW

rangerruck
March 3, 2006, 10:36 PM
he was showing off to let you know that even if you may be carrying he is bigger an badder than you, or what you are carrying. wouldnt have mattered if you had it on you or not. even if you told him i have a ccw but have nothing on me at all right now. he still would have bombarded you with questions. this is one reason , i alwasy carry with me in my car, small bino's, digi camera, voice activ tape recorder. you have to protect yourself. the others, includign the cops will not , and they will try to take advantage of you or get over on you if you do not have PROOF otherwise.

Tomekeuro85
March 3, 2006, 10:43 PM
I don't know if its the best idea to record conversations without notification of the other party. If you were to record your conversation, and then bring it to court to help you out, you'd probably get in trouble for it. I'm not sure if its a felony but I know it is at least a misdemeanor.

Molon Labe
March 3, 2006, 11:10 PM
Cops are your friends. You talk bad about them now, but WHO oh WHO would be the first person you called if someone broke into your house???My lawyer.

Molon Labe
March 3, 2006, 11:15 PM
"Why do you have a CCW permit?"Am I free to go?

"Why are you Carrying?"Am I free to go?

"What are you Carrying?"Am I free to go?

When you encounter an LEO who is a stranger, you should always assume they're a JBT. With this in mind, you should answer each question with another question: "Am I free to go?"

txgho1911
March 3, 2006, 11:40 PM
Did not look into MT code but I trust Packing.org to be mostly correct.
In MT you are not required to inform.

People do not inform when not required because it is non of the officers buisness that we are armed. Personaly I only inform when not required only when I will be clearly exposed. Otherwise I deserve the ticket I get. For speeding even 5 over because it's the law.

Lighting you up after 15-20 min was not polite. That does not fit well with an armed society.

Shootcraps
March 3, 2006, 11:55 PM
I don't understand why some of these people here are so anti-police.

NOBODY was being anti-police. That bullcrap always comes into a discussion about police procedure. They're people, they're not always right, and we can disagree with them if we want. :rolleyes:

Shootcraps
March 3, 2006, 11:57 PM
Cops are your friends. You talk bad about them now, but WHO oh WHO would be the first person you called if someone broke into your house???

First, I'd call the Sanitation Department and ask them to come and pick up the pile of crap that's bleeding to death on my floor. :evil:

THEN I'd call my lawyer. :cool:

Johnny_Yuma
March 3, 2006, 11:59 PM
Molon Wrote:
When you encounter an LEO who is a stranger, you should always assume they're a JBT. With this in mind, you should answer each question with another question: "Am I free to go?"

No, you're not free to go. I'm making an investigative stop. Step out of the car and place your hands behind your back.

Shootcraps
March 4, 2006, 12:00 AM
No, you're not free to go. I'm making an investigative stop. Step out of the car and place your hands behind your back.

Yeah, right. And that would be very illegal.

"Investigative stop"????? Where'd you get that from? CSI? :p :D :evil:

PlayboyPenguin
March 4, 2006, 12:02 AM
No, you're not free to go. I'm making an investigative stop. Step out of the car and place your hands behind your back.
My LEO career was very short, but that would have been my response to that kind of offensive attitude also. Then i would have changed my mind about the reduced charge.

usmarine0352_2005
March 4, 2006, 12:05 AM
For LEO:

Is there such a thing as an "INVESTIGATIVE STOP"???

Hemicuda
March 4, 2006, 12:14 AM
even worse is the one TRUE stupid question that cops ask alot...

"Do you mind if I trample your rights into the ground?" AKA: "Do you mind if i search your vehicle?"

the ONLY correct answer to this question is: "no, i have no problem with you searching it, just as soon as you can state probable cause and come up with a valid warrant"... if they cite any reasons to search it without said warrant, then it is legal to surrender the keys, with it locked up, and then wait for or accompany said officer while he OBTAINS said warrant... but like heck they will EVER consentually search my vehicle...

as for the "why do you have a permit/carry a gun"... my standard answer is "becaue i can have a permit and a gun"... it's all they need to know...

and YES, both of these questions have been put to me by a LEO... and wer answered in exactly the way i stated...

the one for the search was followed by "what are you hiding"... answer to that... NOT A THING, i am just not allowing you to trample my rights, officer...

that officer DID call the prosecutor to try for a warrant... i told him that he should tell my mother hello for me while he had her on the phone... he did not find that funny, but the prosecutor really WAS my mom... she said she would ask for said warrant, but that the officer needed to state probable cause before she'd go about geting it... (she didn't know it was me who refused search yet)

I guess SOME poeple actually CONSENT to searches when asked....

SASS#23149
March 4, 2006, 12:16 AM
The cop was kind of a dufus for 'lighting you up' after the fact so to speak.that is the first thing he should have done for his own safety.
As to the 20.00 ticket....THEY STILL HAVE THOSE THINGS!!?? our tickets aroundher start at way over a hundred fifty bucks for ANYTHING.:(
Drive four blocks with no headlights on at 'dusk' and it's 265.00.:( :(
His questons as to why and what kind where rediculous and uncalled for.None of his business.period.

phoglund
March 4, 2006, 12:21 AM
I think we have to keep perspective that DogMatix was the only one of us that was on the scene. We have to take his word for the demeanor of the officer during the stop. I also have a CWP in Montana and am a bit concerned with this story. Hopefully this was an isolated incident or not what it seemed to be to Dogmatix.

I'm not sure notifying an officer you are packing when he does not need or expect to be told is such a good idea. It might be perceived as a threat. I don't have a problem discussing with a law officer if I'm carrying, why I carry, nor what I'm packing but I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a little courtesy and respect from him/her during the conversation.

Hawkmoon
March 4, 2006, 12:29 AM
Then he proceeded to question me, "Why do you have a CCW permit? ..."
"So I can carry a gun."
..."Why are you Carrying? ..."
"Because I can." or "Because this is a big state and, as you can see, this is a pretty empty road and my car might break down and leave me stuck out here."

Hawkmoon
March 4, 2006, 12:37 AM
I don't know if its the best idea to record conversations without notification of the other party. If you were to record your conversation, and then bring it to court to help you out, you'd probably get in trouble for it. I'm not sure if its a felony but I know it is at least a misdemeanor.
Source, please?

In most states (and under Federal law) it is legal to tape record a telephone conversation with the consent of only one party to the conversation -- which can mean you record your own, or you can record a friend talking to some third party. Twelve states make it illegal to tape record a telephone conversation without the consent of both parties. I am not aware of any state that makes it illegal to tape record a face-to-face conversation, and certainly not an official transaction.

PlayboyPenguin
March 4, 2006, 12:46 AM
I know for a fact it is illegal in WV where I trained as an LEO and I know that it is also illegal in Oregon and Washington to tape conversations (live conversations, I think electronic communications fall under a different rule). We were video taping a neighbor we suspected of selling drugs at an old residence we owned and the judge told us we had to disable the sound on the camera if it could pick up their conversations or it could not be used in court. Also a guy in Utah that was putting video cameras in porta potties got off scott-free because he did not tape any sound. The judge said if the videos had included sound he would have been breaking the law. :)

mustanger98
March 4, 2006, 12:50 AM
Something I learned in the public speaking class is that we all communicate through the filters of our own experience and/or preconceived opinions that come from stuff we've heard. What happened may be a case of honest questions mistaken for interrogation because of tone of voice. Or it could have been honest questions mistaken for interrogation because of a notion that cops are the enemy because people get picked on by a few cops. Or the cop may have been an egotistical idiot. Reading this online is no substitute for being an eyewitness, so we have no real way to know.

Something I've learned from being on these message boards is that the "us vs. them" mentality works both ways. I hear about cops thinking they're better than ordinary citizens or thinking anybody that don't wear a badge is a criminal. I also hear stuff from ordinary citizens like somebody said about "assume every cop you meet is a JBT". Not every cop carries that attitude and neither does every ordinary citizen. Nor should any of us. We're all supposed to be on the same side... the side of law and order... and decency and common courtesy.

As to the question of "who's the first guy you're gonna call...?", with attitudes like I'm reading in this thread it's a wonder there's any cops who'd help anybody any more. BTW, I'm a constituent of the sheriff here and the assistant DA's one of my shooting buddies and we also get to talking guns at lunchtime in the middle of the Mexican restraunt. I've not had a problem with local cops. Your (editorially, in the general sense) mileage seems to have already varied greatly. As far as if some bad guys kick my door in, they'll be under citizen's arrest- if they don't force me to use deadly force- and the first guy I'm calling is the sheriff followed by my buddy the assistant DA. If I also need a lawyer, I'll be calling one of my horse buddies who's a lawyer and a judge locally here.

If I had a cop try anything funny about interrogation like that, I think I'd try to de-escalate the situation. Saying something like "I didn't want to get you worked up over nothing" comes to mind since to my understanding, we're not required to declare a CCW weapon here. Plus, the answer that "it's better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it" seems to me like a pretty sensible reply. And the regulations say a permit holder can have a loaded sidearm anywhere in his/her vehicle, no problem. And as long as the sidearm is in a holster which may be covered by clothing, jacket, briefcase, etc. Or if it's in the glovebox, but the cops don't like 'em under the seat for some reason.

For a cop to ask "what are you carrying"... I don't see the problem. It sounds like he might just be curious, but the problem goes back to tone of voice and body language. Not everybody has the manner of a decent-to-good conversationalist. I know my sister says nobody can tell whether I'm kidding or serious when I make a joke and I'm not a LE/peace officer. My brother-in-law is an ex-cop and he runs his mouth sometimes too and I can't tell what he's thinking either. He and I and my sister know each other's armed too, and so far there's been no problem in that regard. But then, I haven't loaded my K98 with the Turkish magnum junk and handed it to him yet...:neener:

"Investigative stop"... that sounds to me like it lacks "probable cause".

Bob R
March 4, 2006, 01:11 AM
I presently live in Montana, have lived in WA, OK, and travel through ID a lot with a concealed weapon.

This whole thread would not have happened, and perhaps the ticket, if you get rid of the Us vs. Them attitude. I have been stopped in all 4 states by the highway patrol, and Spokane by the sheriff for minor traffic stops.

In each and every one, I have handed the LEO my concealed permit with my license, registeration and proof of insurance. In each and every stop, I asked what he would like me to do and was told to leave the pistol where it is.

I have yet to receive a ticket since I got my CCW, and made a practice of telling the LEO up front that I am carrying.

Even the time right after I got my Hemi Jeep and was testing to see if in fact it did have a electronic govenor. It does, at 110mph it stops. I couldn't believe it, and neither could the Highway Patrolman that stopped me. 330hp and then a limiter, what gives?

The point being, if you want respect, give respect.

If you want a ticket, and possibly a very long night, don't cooperate during a minor traffic stop.

Tha is my 2 cents worth, YMMV.

bob

Zundfolge
March 4, 2006, 01:16 AM
migoi, I think you missed my point completely. The moderators have removed the "quote" button to avoid people completely quoting others posts instead of the small part they are responding to. My snippet of a quote did not change the meaning of what you said so there's no intellectual dishonesty going on here. :scrutiny:

Anyway, my point is that if you say to a cop that you carry for the same reason he does, then what is likely going to go through his head is "I carry because I'm a duly sworn officer of the law, so this guy must be some sort of wannabe cop thinking he can run around thwarting criminals and saving damsels in distress just because he's got a gun."

We're talking about the misconceptions of a somewhat anti cop (and you don't throw a "why do you have a CCW?" in someone's face unless you're at least a little anti) we're talking about feeding his skewed view of "civilians" who CCW.

Tomekeuro85
March 4, 2006, 01:34 AM
I can see why some of you don't like police. You give them attitude when they ask you something, and then they give you a hard time so you just dislike them more. Next time you get stopped you give more attitude and get even more trouble. If you had cooperated in the first place, shown respect and gave no attitude, it is far more likely you would have just gotten off with a warning. (I'm not saying this to the thread starter just people in general). Secondly, why do you even get pulled over? Speed limits and traffic laws exist for a reason. I have been driving for 5 years and I have never even been pulled over a single time. I have talked to officers on the street, and for some reason I have never seen this type of attitude from them because I cooperate and answer what I am asked.

And don't give any BS about calling your lawyer first when your house gets burglarized when you're not home. Your lawyer isn't going to solve a crime. My intention with that post was to say that people hate the police so much, but they expect the police to help them IMMEDIATELY when there is trouble.

Taurus 66
March 4, 2006, 01:34 AM
Excuse me for one moment, but I must temporarily hijack the thread to ask this: Aren't Montana's speed limits basically what's "Reasonable and Prudent"? You were how many miles per hour over the "supposed" speed limit? Not that much for a MT officer to be concerned.

I like usmarine's answer. It's answering a question with a question and a straight forward, calm, cool approach. It's knowing what you should say before you have to say it.

Tomekeuro85
March 4, 2006, 01:38 AM
SASS, you say it's none of the officers business. Period. To ask you questions. Have you never been at the range and asked someone where they got a specific gun? Or why they like it? Same principle appies, cops are people too, can't they be curious and/or make conversation?

Bob R
March 4, 2006, 01:45 AM
Aren't Montana's speed limits basically what's "Reasonable and Prudent"?

Only from 1995 to May 28, 1999 ( a very sad day). Our speed limit on the interstate is now 75mph.

bob

Tomekeuro85
March 4, 2006, 01:56 AM
Bob R- Good points above, If you want respect, give respect. A cop can give you a very hard time if he wants. You wont win against him. Its like pissing into the wind. The sooner you realize it, the better off you'll be.

MTMilitiaman
March 4, 2006, 02:07 AM
Bob, normally I would agree with you. But I've had several run-ins with the Bozeman City Police and in each and every one, they brought the " Us v. Them" attitude and forced me to deal with it.

As for this particular officer, I wasn't there, but anytime someone starts drilling me for exercising one of my rights, and directly inquires as to why I carry a firearm, that suggests a certain amount of distrust. Distrust by default makes it "us v. them." So if a cop doesn't want an "us v. them" attitude, it seems reasonable to expect them not to bring such an attitude themselves.

As for the patrol man's questions, asking if you're presently carrying seems reasonable from his point of view and if he can ask in a courteous manner, I wouldn't mind disclosing to him whether or not I was strapped. But I wouldn't volunteer the information cause that kind of defeats the purpose to me. Besides, like someone mentioned, you can have a weapon in your vehicle at any time without a permit. Asking what you are carrying--well that is none of his business but I would probably tell him just cause I take a certain amount of pride in my hardware. "Glock 20, sir." If he doesn't know what that is, let him research it on someone else's time. The thing that would really piss me off is asking why I am packing. That is none of his business and I think I would really have to know why it interested him.

Zen21Tao
March 4, 2006, 02:23 AM
Every time I have been pulled over (yes I sometimes have a lead foot) I inform the officer of my CCW. Each time I have been treated very well usually getting only warnings of cheaper nominal tickets with no points and only a few $$. A few times I have had officers ask about my firearms out of their own interest. For example, "how does a single compare to a double stack IWB." I don't know why the bright lights but if he wasn't rude, intemidating or threatening then I wouldn't sweat it.

Warren
March 4, 2006, 02:40 AM
The question :"Why do you (or as it is sometimes said -you-) have a gun?" Is a very rude and Unamerican question out of anyone.

The questioner has a mindset that is just wrong. That said why risk pissing off a cop?

I've not been stopped since I got my CHL (since, oddly the very first day I went out armed I found myself almost unable to violate traffic laws) and Cali has no duty to inform but if it came up somehow and the cop asked me WDYHAG I would reply with a happy and upbeat "Why not?" That puts him in the position of explaining his mindset to me rather than the other way round.

MAURICE
March 4, 2006, 03:50 AM
I got pulled over tonight because a headlight went out the other day. I actually bought the new bulbs this evening not long before being pulled over.
Told the nice, attractive, female officer I work for the state Dept of Correction (we are not police officers, though), plus had a CCW. I never have been pulled over while carrying, and even though I am in Law Enforcement, I was not sure what to expect.
She didnt even flinch. It seemed like it was a non issue to her as she didnt ask where it was or ask to secure it either.
Got my Contact Form and was sent on my way.

I am not going to get in the whole us v them debate, but please remember, cops are regular people with an irregular job. They will cut you some slack if you cut them some slack. No need to tell a cop "f off".

Sorry for your bad luck.

CajunBass
March 4, 2006, 04:32 AM
I got stopped about a week ago. In Virginia there is no requirement to inform, but it will come up when the officer runs your drivers license. I had my XD on the front seat. Open carry is legal in Virginia. I handed the officer my DL and my CHP, and told him, "You don't really need this but I'll give it to you anyway. If I was on the other side of that door, I'd appreciate it." He glanced at it, handed it back and said "Thank you." End of that part of the discussion. To tell you the truth, I don't believe he even saw the gun on the seat. If he did, he didn't pay any attention to it.

He explained why he stopped me. I explained my understanding of the situation. No ticket, not even a warning really, just explaining what was wrong. I thanked him. He thanked me. We both went on about our business.

ezypikns
March 4, 2006, 04:38 AM
We were told in our licensing class that the law requires (in TEXAS) that when you hand over your DL, you'd BETTER also hand over your CHL. It doesn't matter if you're actually carrying or not. If the LEO pulls up your DL no., it will automatically tell him you have a license to carry. Why would a law abiding citizen NOT inform him. We were told to always have our CHL if we had our DL on us.
Sounds as if the officer was overly inquisitive but polite. I have been stopped before and since I received my license. I have always been treated politely. Mainly because I always treat the officer politely.
I know there are buttheads everywhere, even on our police forces. They have the law on their side automatically, and they also carry a gun. Generally it's our word against theirs.
Until I win the lottery and have unlimited time, money, and a full time legal staff, I'm going continue to treat LEO's with the respect I believe they deserve. I really have no desire to appear on an episode of "COPS".

Monkeybear
March 4, 2006, 04:52 AM
Hes a cop. His life is on the line everyday and hes got to put up with crap from cop haters every day. If he turned all his lights on it was likely so that he see you better, a valid precaution when you know you are dealing wtih someone who is armed. IMO be repectful and just answer their questions about your CCW and youll be fine. From what I have been told a CCW is not the the special ability to carry a hidden firearm but rather license to carry a firearm on condition that it is consealed.

gunsmith
March 4, 2006, 06:00 AM
the one time since getting my ccw I was asked for my license I also gave up my CCW license...
We ended up talking about how much better AZ is over CA.
Showlow AZ PD, stand up guys in my opinion.

Coronach
March 4, 2006, 06:24 AM
For LEO:

Is there such a thing as an "INVESTIGATIVE STOP"???Of course. However, that does not seem to be what happened here.

Example of an investigative stop:

You get word of a bank robbery on Main Street, the suspects have just left northbound in a green Chevy Lumina. As you pull up to the intersection of Main and Elm (which is 5 blocks north of the bank), you see a green Chevy Lumina driving northbound on Main St, obeying all traffic laws.

Do you have probable cause to pull the car over, yank out the driver, cuff him and throw him in jail for bank robbery?

Heck no.

Do you have enough reasonable articulable suspicion to stop the car, make contact with the driver, detain him at the point of stop until someone can get with the witnesses at the bank and get everything sorted out?

Of course you do. That is an investigative stop, or investigative detention.

Mike

Geno
March 4, 2006, 06:56 AM
The man cut you a break, why not cut him a break, right? In MI, they could have and probably would have taken your MCPL (CCW) for that lapse. First offense is 6 months loss and I think $500.00 fine (I think that is the penalty). My final point, this guy is doing a thankless job; I wouldn't want it. The CCW instructor I had was the county S.W.A.T. director. He told us ANYTIME you get pulled over, carrying or not carrying, ALWAYS flash you MCPL (CCW) because most police believe (as stated here by an other post) that if you've lived a good enough life to have a MCPL, you deserve a "break".

Want to bet that if you had disclosed the CCW, you would NOT have been ticketed at all.

Doc2005

MedGrl
March 4, 2006, 08:10 AM
I checked Packing.org and according to them you are required to carry your permit but not requiered to notify the officer that you are carrying. I have no idea what was with all the lights and the belated interrogation. I'll see if my uncle who is a LEO has any ideas.

Igloodude
March 4, 2006, 08:36 AM
When you encounter an LEO who is a stranger, you should always assume they're a JBT. With this in mind, you should answer each question with another question: "Am I free to go?"

I suspect that treating them like JBTs encourages them to act like JBTs towards you.

While I would not let them search my car without probable cause, I'm not going to regard chatting with the LEO as any "Your papers please!!" conversation (knowing full well that the conversation is a bit of an investigation into my sobriety if nothing else).

MrTwigg
March 4, 2006, 09:06 AM
can see why some of you don't like police. You give them attitude when they ask you something, and then they give you a hard time so you just dislike them more. Next time you get stopped you give more attitude and get even more trouble. If you had cooperated in the first place, shown respect and gave no attitude, it is far more likely you would have just gotten off with a warning. (I'm not saying this to the thread starter just people in general). Secondly, why do you even get pulled over? Speed limits and traffic laws exist for a reason.

A motor vehicle stop is arguably the single most dangerous thing any LEO does during his shift. If/When I am stopped the one thing I want to do is to coperate and make that P.O. at ease.

I've been driving for 32 years and I've learned the hard way what NOT to say and do when stopped.

Get a radar detector and or a CB radio if you don't have one and use them.
If you find yourself speeding all the time, slow down & learn to leave a bit earlier.

It's been said in other threads but I'll say it here;
When stopped by LEO,


Pull over
Turn on interior light
Put wallet or ID on top of dash
Roll down window
Keep hands on steering wheel
Be respectful even if LEO is not


Know the laws in the area you are driving through. Lighten up and have a better tommorrow.

Sistema1927
March 4, 2006, 10:15 AM
Richard.Howe said what I was thinking:

If I was a LEO on a dark night, and someone I had just pulled over failed to tell me that he was a CHL holder and was carrying -- and in addition had failed to turn on his dome light and keep his hands on the wheel -- my blood would run a little cold, too...


Even if your state doesn't have a requirement to notify, it makes sense to me to hand over your CCW, DL, registration and proof of insurance, preferably with the CCW on top.

V4Vendetta
March 4, 2006, 10:19 AM
I didn't read all the posts but here's what I'd say.

"Why officer, the same reason you carry a firearm. There are some folks out there that would just as soon kill you as look at you. You carry a firearm to make sure you make it home every night, so do I."

"I'm carrying a [fill in blank].

Be polite. Being a jerk doesn't give the LEO a good impression on the rest of CCW's.

TexasRifleman
March 4, 2006, 10:25 AM
While the lights were certainly for his safety, the questioning might just be plain old polite conversation.

I was stopped by Texas' finest (Highway Patrol) and given a warning for speeding, then spent a nice 15 minutes talking about Sigs and various holsters available. Turns out the Trooper had a side business laying fiber optic cables and he and I bid on a job together a few months after that.

Cops are people too, sometimes......

Optical Serenity
March 4, 2006, 12:44 PM
Seems to me like not only was he polite but he also lowered your ticket to below what you actually deserved. You should have thanked him.

As for the lights, thats standard, except where he messed up was he should have had all them on from the second he stopped you. My lights all come on like the Braves stadium before your car is stopped. Its a very useful tool to prevent people from jumping out and seeing where I actually am. Not to mention it helps light up your car so others don't hit you. Overall the useful and correct thing to do.

Before I was an LEO I'd always hand over my driver's license and my GA Firearm's Permit and say "I have a weapon on me." then they'd EVERYTIME hand back the GFL and say "ok, I only need your driver's license, but thank you."

And now, most cops I know actually are more likely to NOT ticket someone with a firearms permit. Its the opposite of how you guys think most of the time.

And if you are asked about it, its 99.9% of the time because most cops love guns and are just interested in what you have.

another okie
March 4, 2006, 01:04 PM
"Tell the LEO you are packing immediatly and things will go alot smoother."

Well, probably. Here in Oklahoma we're required to tell, so it's not a choice I have to make, but there have been plenty of posts on this board of people who informed the officer and were then ordered against the car while the officer took their gun away from them, unloaded it, and ran a check to see if it was stolen while the driver waited in the back of the patrol car.

Police officers are people, and they have varying levels of knowledge and confidence and expertise and energy just like anyone else. Some don't think anyone but them should have guns, and they can be hostile. Some are tired and worn out and cynical from being lied to all the time. Some just have to be the boss, and if you don't acknowledge that they are the boss they will raise the level. Some are relieved to find you are a law-abiding citizen and will cut you some slack.

There's no response that will make everything go smoothly all the time, because every officer and every driver are different.

akodo
March 4, 2006, 01:20 PM
"Why are you Carrying?" Because if I keep my gun at home, it doesn't do me any good.

BigRobT
March 4, 2006, 01:48 PM
One of the things I encountered quite often when I did the LEO gig was the negative attitudes. Quite frankly, your attitude often influences MY attitude. It's really THAT simple. You want to be a butthead. I can be one, too. You want to be a nice guy, I'll be the nice guy, too. Most of the tickets that I actually wrote were to those that got rude, discourteous or thought they were better than me. The vast majority got a verbal reprimand and it was left at that.

TallPine
March 4, 2006, 02:03 PM
First of all ... you folks who are posting about what your own states laws are regarding CCW and LEO contact are not adding anything useful to the discussion. Things are different up here - get used to it:p As has already been pointed out, anyone who can otherwise legally possess a gun may carry a gun in a car in MT without a permit - and to my knowledge most everyone does so any LEO should already be assuming that for every traffic stop :rolleyes:

Secondly, it is hard to discern exactly what the officer's attitude was in the original post, but it doesn't sound at all like the MT LEOs that I know. If this really was a stop by MHP, then I would contact the nearest MHP office about the officer's behavior (the time to get all worried about an armed citizen is when the stop is first made, not after you find out he has been through all the hoops for CCW permit). If it is a local city agency then it might not do any good:(

This officer sounds to me like a new-hire from out of state ...

AirForceShooter
March 4, 2006, 02:12 PM
I'd call the guys boss and kind of play dumb.
"Hey, I got stopped by one of your guys, really nice guy, but he was grilling me about my CCW. Is that usual?"
Best that happened to me was I got stopped by a Deputy here and got chewed out for NOT carrying. Her rationale was; what if she was in trouble and I came along and couldn't help. I was an inconsiderate SOB. I promised to carry in the future and she let me off with a warning. Coming from NYC it was sort of crazy to me.

AFS

Shootcraps
March 4, 2006, 02:13 PM
One of the things I encountered quite often when I did the LEO gig was the negative attitudes. Quite frankly, your attitude often influences MY attitude. It's really THAT simple.

That works both ways. And it sounds like the trooper played the Attitude Card first.

Hook686
March 4, 2006, 02:36 PM
Yesterday, 08:00 PM #16
George S.

While MT laws may require you to present your CCW to an LEO if you are stopped for whatever reason and are carrying (and checking www.packing.org is a good way to find out), I guess I would be upset if I was asked why I had a permit or why I was carrying. Having a valid permit makes me "legal" in the eyes of the state and that is all the LEO should have been concerned with at that point.



Suppose your reason given in obtaining the CCW was , "Because I carry diamonds in the course of my business. I own a shop in Billings."

Here you are either 1) carrying diamonds, or 2) carrying a gun outside the stated purpose for your being issued a CCW.

My question concerns the latter, and maybe why the LEO asked the question. If a CCW holder was carrying concealed a listed qualified handgun, under other circumstances, than for which the CCW was issued, is that a violation of 1) law, 2) the CCW terms; and, is the holder subject to legal action, or loss of permit ?

The LEO must have had a reason for asking the question, and for taking so long in getting back to the driver ... he had lots of time to glean the details of the driver's CCW, and a background on the driver. I never heard of such a delay in ticketing ... but then I've only received one speeding ticket and it was over quickly, though it cost a whole lot more than twenty bucks !

:confused:

Bob R
March 4, 2006, 03:07 PM
but there have been plenty of posts on this board of people who informed the officer and were then ordered against the car while the officer took their gun away from them, unloaded it, and ran a check to see if it was stolen while the driver waited in the back of the patrol car.


I have been on this board for awhile, and I cannot remember off the top of my head one of these posts. There have probably been some, but I can't remember seeing them.

Has anyone else seen plenty of these posts? And, just how many is plenty?

bob

WayneConrad
March 4, 2006, 07:44 PM
I think it's an education issue.

CCW holders are, as a group, much safer to interact with than is the average Joe. Safer for a bank teller, for a police officer, for anyone. Police officers that know that (and many do), relax just a little, I think, when they found out someone has a CCW. Police officers that don't know that may get more uptight, especially if they weren't informed up front.

If an officer knows this fact still gets uptight, well, perhaps over time he will learn just how boring CCW holders are. We just don't go around shooting cops, and the presence of a sidearm on our person doesn't change that.

CAPTAIN MIKE
March 4, 2006, 07:50 PM
There are two ways to respond.

One, be a jerk about it and antagonize the officer so that his fear and worry about civilian CCW will later seems "justified" to him and others who feel like him.

Two, defuse his worry. Answer politely and invite him to your next IDPA match as your guest. Lighten up fer crissake and he probably will too.

After all, we're all Good Guys, remember?

Raph84
March 5, 2006, 03:11 AM
(BigRobT) Quite frankly, your attitude often influences MY attitude. It's really THAT simple. You want to be a butthead. I can be one, too.

Quite frankly you are working. You are performing a job that by definition exposes you to danger, but you signed up for it. In the course of your job you have to invade the lives of people attempting to go about their business some of them are good guys and some are not.

As a man doing his job you should have a level of proffesionalism about how you interact with people. I don't care how mean or foolish they are if they don't break the law you do not have the right to treat them like a criminal (or a "butthead").

This statement is why the "treat 'em all as Jackbooted thugs" mentallity exists. If you ever act like a JBT (even if the citizen is a total jerk) then you are one.

Winger Ed.
March 5, 2006, 03:46 AM
I figure its just a moment in life, and no need to go instantly crazy, or talk yourself into some very expensive trouble.

Since you didn't think the Cop or LEO was going to walk up and blow your head off, you didn't shoot him with your licensed handgun did ya? So, relax. Turn on your car's inside light, keep smiling, and everything will be fine shortly. doing that- It always works out that way.

From the Police Officer's perspective: Look at the possibilities-

It might have been a young Cop who has had very little experiance with 'good citizens' or us 'old folks' who aren't afraid/intimidated just by being in thier presence.

Put yourself in his place:

Out wherever you were, and ya pulled over a car, not knowing who or what was inside,,,,,, How would you react and handle that situation? Would you be over cautious like he did?

Or, would you have known at a earlier stage of the game that you--- perhaps like he himself will realize in a few years or months---that he just shouldn't be a Cop in the first place?

I figure as long as you didn't get shot or have to shoot anyone else--- its all OK, and negotiable in the long run.

////////

Then again,,,, here's a example for ya:

My Grandfather was a 'Career Cop' his whole life in the Deep South. From the mid-30's until he passed away in 1975. He'd been a City Cop, a Sheriffs Duputy, a Marshal, a Police Chief, pretty much everything but a Mississippi State Trooper.

One day around 1968 or 1969, probably at age 60 or so, after 30-something years as being a Cop, and never haveing aimed his weapon at another person,,,, he pulled over a car that ran a "Yield" sign, in his little one traffic lite, whistle stop town.

I didn't think it was possible to run a Yield sign, but I guess it is- or was back then if you were a stranger with out of state license plates.

Here's this 60 or so year old Cop, and what popped out of the car he pulled over was a guy on the FBI's 10 most wanted list........ who promtply went (unhurt) to his jail, and waited for transportation/escort---- 'up North'-- as he called everything above, and East of Jackson, Miss.

,,

Roll that around in your head awhile.
I don't think there is a moral to this story, but like your's, its good food for thought.

Ed.

modifiedbrowning
March 5, 2006, 10:40 AM
For the FOURTH or FIFTH TIME.
In MT you can carry a loaded, concealed firearm in your car without any sort of license needed. So even if Dogmatix told the cop he had a CCW and even gave up his weapon how is the cop going to know whether or not he has another weapon or twenty stashed in the car.

Tallpine, do you know if your CCW is connected to your DL or License plate? I didn't think that they were. I checked the MT codes, but didn't see any mention of it.

TallPine
March 5, 2006, 11:00 AM
Tallpine, do you know if your CCW is connected to your DL or License plate? I didn't think that they were. I checked the MT codes, but didn't see any mention of it.
I have no idea ... but apparently it is according to the initial post of this thread (if that can be believed). OTOH, I hear the radio chatter for traffic stops all the time on my VFD portable, and I never hear any mention of "CCW" unless that is one of their codes that I am unfamiliar with. They always ask for 10-29 and 10-31 on an individual. That's county sheriff deputies ... maybe MHP has a direct computer lookup when they are within radio range of one of their offices.

The MT LEOs that I know and have come in contact with all seem to be reasonable and decent people. I would never expect that kind of reaction from any of the ones that I know of. Once I stopped at a game checkpoint while open carrying my .357 and the FG guy never even blinked about it.

modifiedbrowning
March 5, 2006, 11:08 AM
Yeah, I always thought they weren't connected in any way. It doesn't really make sense to bother with it when you can have the gun in the car without a permit anyway.

Curare
March 5, 2006, 11:53 AM
.....he turned it into a "oh whatcha packin" convo.

Why didn't you include that fact in your first post where he was portrayed as a JBT?

Curare
March 5, 2006, 12:06 PM
that officer DID call the prosecutor to try for a warrant... i told him that he should tell my mother hello for me while he had her on the phone... he did not find that funny, but the prosecutor really WAS my mom... she said she would ask for said warrant, but that the officer needed to state probable cause before she'd go about geting it... (she didn't know it was me who refused search yet)

Oh my! Was your vehicle searched?

PlayboyPenguin
March 5, 2006, 12:54 PM
Didn't federal courts rule years ago that cars can be searched without a warrant if the officer has reason to to believe there is just cause. This was due to the mobility of cars and the fact they could easily be moved or hidden. An officer has to ask permission for a search first but if you refuse they can do a warrantless search on grounds of suspicious behavior. Just like they do not need a warrant to check your pockets.

Optical Serenity
March 5, 2006, 12:56 PM
You guys who keep talking about "JBTs" should remember one thing. You are generalizing big time, and wanting to pre judge. Now, imagine if it went the other way around:

In our jobs, we deal with the absolute worse days of people's lives. We see criminal after criminal, and many bad mistakes and some very bad crimes occur. Suppose we start to assume (as you obviously do about us) that all non-LEO are criminals!? Then what?

You see, its about education and it goes both ways. Its about professionalism both ways too. Both the LEO & the citizen needs to be courteous and professional.

I have many traffic stops where in the video it is obvious the person is being a total jerk, and you see me simply say "yes sir, I understand your frustration." even though he's calling me every name in the book. Now when we get to court, things get very interesting for him because there he shows up in a suit claiming to have been harassed and cursed at. Imagine his surprise when he finds out the video proves he just lied on the stand? :)

Now, instead of giving out advice to be rued and uncourteous on the side of the road to the officer, how about just plain being yourself? Unless of course your typical personality is to be a jerk?

Like I said in my original post, I can't remember the last time I wrote someone a ticket who had a GA Firearm's Permit or an out of state CCW. I can remember however many who said "What the f**k did you stop me for you a**hole? I'll see your motherf**king a** in court" well, to that type person...my verbal warning obviously will not suffice in getting them to rectify whatever they got stopped for.

Ryder
March 5, 2006, 12:59 PM
Looks like he thought you would kill him over a $20 fine?

Curare
March 5, 2006, 02:39 PM
Optical Serenity--I appreciate the sacrifices LEOs endure. It truly is a thankless job in many respects, though incredibly important. Stay safe.

MrTwigg
March 5, 2006, 03:37 PM
Looks like he thought you would kill him over a $20 fine

This happens more often than you might think. I'm not flaming you when I say this, but I remember an incident in Riverhead, Long Island when a cop stopped some guy for a loud muffler. The stop went without incident but the dude came back ten minutes later with a 12 gage pump and literally blew the cop's face off. The cop actually survived but he was now is blind, deaf and had to have a entire new jaw built. Ruined his whole life, last I heard he's still undergoing reconstructive surgery. The :cuss: who did it managed to get away that night but surrendered the next day with his attorney in a very public manner to avoid getting what he deserved. :banghead:

Herself
March 5, 2006, 06:52 PM
Even if your state doesn't have a requirement to notify, it makes sense to me to hand over your CCW, DL, registration and proof of insurance, preferably with the CCW on top.

It may make sense to you but as other have pointed out, states vary a lot along those lines. In Indiana, I have seen different recommendations; handing over your CCW on a traffic stop can go either way.

But if you get nipped on a legitimate traffic vioation, take your medicine! And don't be a jerk about it. I average one minor traffic stop every 6 or 7 years -- light speeding, one very deep amber light and several "driving in the wrong neighborhood late at night."

Those stops are not jackbooted thuggery, they're cops doing their jobs and the extent to which I make it easier for them -- Pulling off the road if possible, license and registration ready, dome light on, hands in plain sight and purse on the far seat -- it is over faster and sometimes with only only a warning.

I am no fan of speed traps; I'll warn oncoming motorists of one if I can, which serves the same purpose of getting them to slow down without the excitement and sirens. But if I get caught in one, I face it; it is nobody's fault but mine.

Speed limits are low. They are not set for you. They are set for the beginning driver and the little old lady with really slow reactions, with whom you share the road.

--Herself

HankB
March 5, 2006, 07:01 PM
Should I have told him to back the "F" off?Uh . . . bad idea. Maybe he's "wired" for sound and has a dashboard cam running. Do YOU want to be featured on an episode of "America's Worst Drivers" or something, cussing out a cop? Or in court before judge Buford T. Justice, with a tape of you cussing out his brother, a fine, upstanding minion of the law?

The (very) few times I've encountered someone in authority who becomes rude and obnoxious, I find it's much better to speak very softly and dispassionately. Unless he's a junkie or something himself - in which case you've got a problem no matter how you look at it - you sort of take the wind out of his sails by NOT reacting to provocation the way he might want you to.Speed limits are low. They are not set for you. They are set for the beginning driver and the little old lady with really slow reactions, with whom you share the road.Sometimes . . . but all too often, they're set for a purpose which can be summed up in two words: Revenue Enhancement.

Raph84
March 5, 2006, 07:47 PM
(PlayboyPenguin) An officer has to ask permission for a search first but if you refuse they can do a warrantless search on grounds of suspicious behavior. Just like they do not need a warrant to check your pockets.


Refusing to an officers request of a search does not rise to articulable suspision which is required for a warrantless search.

An officer may check your pockets for his own safety (terry stop) but he may not do this to your car, if he fears for his safety he can take you out of his car and put you in the back of his.

Hot brass
March 5, 2006, 09:30 PM
Things were stolen from my wifes car and I called the cops. Responding LEO was looking thrugh the car and I informed him that I had a CCW and was armed. He did not flinch, said don`t worry about it.

aufevermike
March 5, 2006, 11:40 PM
Here in Alaska you better tell them upfront that you have a CCW even if you are not carrying at the time. It's better than having them find out just the way that the cop did in your situation. If you don't.....well he'll be pissed that you didn't tell him or her. Besides it shows that you are an honest citizen and has even gotten be off on a few.

Mike

HankB
March 6, 2006, 08:56 AM
Here in Alaska you better tell them upfront that you have a CCW even if you are not carrying at the time.I thought Alaska had gone to Vermont-style carry? :confused:

roo_ster
March 6, 2006, 10:36 AM
Telling someone to "eff off" is almost guaranteed to bring about a negative reaction.

I'm not quite sure what folks who want to get all hostile expect to accomplish. Even if Officer Attitude is being a jerk. You are at a disadvantage: A man with a firearm is behind you, his lights may be blazing, he is likely wearing body armor, and he is used to using (maybe abusing) his authority.

Remain cool & collected. Know and understand your obligations in that state as far as CCW goes. If Officer Attitude's question can be taken one of several ways, respond to the most charitable interpretation. Respond to Officer Attitude in a calm manner. Do not accede to any searches/etc. without a warrant and always be mindful of your rights and the legitimate execise of his authority. If Officer Attitude steps over the line, make mental note of all that occurs.

If you really think Officer Attitude is out of line (legally or attitudinally), carefully record your recollections as soon as you are able and inform his superiors, both administrative and elected. If his superiors do not respond, you can assume that it is a department-wide problem and you will get no satisfaction from this route. If the incident is egregious/serious enough, a call to a lawyer may be warranted.

Just this demeanor got my buddy out of a contested ticket and got Officer Attitude a dressing down in court from the judge.

Hokkmike
March 6, 2006, 11:04 AM
Sounds like a case of instinctive survival training setting in. Being a little tactless doesn't compare to being in harm's way. His questions do seem a little out of line maybe. I supposed I would have asked if you were carrying now, and where was it?, just for my own (if I were him) piece of mind. The why's are not really his business.

I'd let it go. Life is too short.

para.2
March 6, 2006, 12:30 PM
What never ceases to amaze me when I read one of these threads, is why after the officer finds out you have a CCW he becomes concerned. He has now determined that you are one of the good guys, having gone through the time/trouble/expense/background checks, etc. required to obtain such a permit. There are studies I have read, which I don't have links to readily available at the moment, indicating that the CCW licensed public is far more law-abiding than the public at large, and even more law-abiding as a percentage than the sworn LEO community.

For him to become concerned at this point only clearly indicates to me that he'd rather be the only one on the planet with a gun.

And, for the poster who asked who we'd call if our house was broken into, as I've posted before, due to my multiple negative impressions of local law enforcers when I have, in the past called them for different situations, I don't call the police anymore. If it's important enough for me to take care of, I take care of it. If it isn't important enough, I let it go.

glockamolee
March 6, 2006, 01:05 PM
I'm surprised that this was Montana. I could see if it was one of the Communist states such as CA, NJ, or their ilk.

I think he was anti CCW.

Taurus 66
March 6, 2006, 02:10 PM
Here in Alaska you better tell them upfront that you have a CCW even if you are not carrying at the time. It's better than having them find out just the way that the cop did in your situation. If you don't.....well he'll be pissed that you didn't tell him or her. Besides it shows that you are an honest citizen and has even gotten be off on a few.

That's what I don't get! If government agencies did a better job in communicating with one another, all the officer should have to do is take the drivers license number, run it through the DMV, which should be communicating with the County Clerk's Office, or whatever department holds CCW records, all states. The officer would know from dispatch or computer if a person is CCW legal. One question to the motorist reamins: "Are you carrying now?"

On an additional note: A person who is legally carrying concealed and doesn't inform the officer is still far less of a threat (infact no threat at all, because ... well ... his is peace) than some BG packing illegally who possibly wants to do harm to the police.

c_yeager
March 6, 2006, 02:29 PM
Sounds like a case of instinctive survival training setting in. Being a little tactless doesn't compare to being in harm's way. His questions do seem a little out of line maybe. I supposed I would have asked if you were carrying now, and where was it?, just for my own (if I were him) piece of mind. The why's are not really his business.

I'd let it go. Life is too short.


Has it occured to you that the guys you *really* need to worry about are the people who don't have permits and lie to you when you ask "do you have a gun"?

Seriously, your survival instincts better be ticking over *more* when you have *less* information, not the other way around.

Scott F
March 6, 2006, 10:14 PM
If you ever get stopped again try this line, “Good evening officer, I have a CCL and I am carrying. How would you like me to proceed?” This is stated with your hands in plain site, something like the 10-2 position on the steering wheel.

The officer will know you have a CCL sooner or later and this shows your willingness to cooperate up front. A survey of those using this approach showed than not one was issued a ticket. Some did get warnings but no fines. I have not been stopped in well over twenty years but if I do this will be my attitude. Give it a try.

ajkurp
March 6, 2006, 11:24 PM
Well, gee officer- I never thought about it much. Why do you think I have a gun? Aren't I supposed to?

In a reflective, civil "asking my shrink" tone.

or, try this...

"Why are you using that crosswalk?"
Well, gee officer- I never thought about it much. Aren't I supposed to?

ScottS
March 7, 2006, 10:50 PM
"Why do you have a CCW permit?" "Officer, am I free to go now?"

"Why are you Carrying?" "Officer, am I free to go now?"

"What are you Carrying?" "Officer, am I free to go now?"

Why would you even consider answering inane questions?

usmarine0352_2005
March 7, 2006, 10:57 PM
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