Pregnant woman shoots self in stomach the day of delivery


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Zen21Tao
March 4, 2006, 05:26 AM
As the title says, a preganant woman shot herself in the stomach the very day he was to deliver her fully develop full term baby girl. The woman was charged with "inducing an illegal abortion", using a firearm in the commision of a felony, and filing a false police report. Virginia law doesn't recognize this as murder or even fetuscide. My question to everyone is, do you think that she should be charged with first degree murder for this.

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Sindawe
March 4, 2006, 05:42 AM
Borders on Verboten topic here. That said, ethically yes since from all appearances the fetus was viable.

griz
March 4, 2006, 09:06 AM
The question of when life begins is one that I view as OT.
But from what I heard on the radio (I live in the same area) they dropped the "using a firearm in the commision of a felony" charge because the law lists specific crimes to which the charge applies. "Inducing an illegal abortion" is not on the list.

Crosshair
March 4, 2006, 09:46 AM
I think she needs to be involuntarily committed.:eek:

JohnBT
March 4, 2006, 11:52 AM
"My question to everyone is, do you think that she should be charged with first degree murder for this."

How can they charge her when Virginia law doesn't permit it? If they charge her it will just be thrown out.

John

Justin
March 4, 2006, 12:58 PM
She needs to be locked up in the nut hatch is what needs to happen.

Stand_Watie
March 4, 2006, 01:29 PM
A unborn child isn't a "person" by the American legal definition, so a charge of murder would make a mockery of the law. Whether a child one day away from delivery should be considered a person or not, would get this thread locked for sure.

I think of a greater significance from the perspective of gun rights, and even the right of people being able to do with their "own bodies" (legal definition, not my personal definition) as they wish is that for commiting a crime against herself (again the legal definition) a person is being charged with

"using a firearm in the commision of a felony".

Should we charge firearm using suicide attemptees similarly?

Stand_Watie
March 4, 2006, 01:33 PM
But from what I heard on the radio (I live in the same area) they dropped the "using a firearm in the commision of a felony" charge because the law lists specific crimes to which the charge applies. "Inducing an illegal abortion" is not on the list

Mea Culpa. I didn't read all the responses before posting. Someone's boss should be asking them why the heck they didn't read the list of specific crimes before bringing the charges, and reading them the riot act for making their agency or deparment look silly.

Vitamin G
March 4, 2006, 01:34 PM
If she were charged with murder... wouldn't abortion have to be illegal?

Kinda like the catch-22 that if you shot a pregnant woman, you can be charged with murder twice... (so i hear)

One of Many
March 4, 2006, 01:59 PM
The law now permits the removal of certain rights of 'Personhood' (voting in state and federal elections - right to own firearms) due to decisions of courts (felony convictions - domestic violence misdemeanor convictions - involuntarily committed to a mental care facility). The status of being a 'Person' under the law is completely arbitrary. If enough of the wrong kind of people achieve a sufficient level of power in government, all gunowners will find that they are no longer 'Persons' as far the law is concerned.

We are just a few votes away from becoming the 'property' of the government; when a citizen has their rights as a 'Person' removed by the government, they become the property of the government. There is little difference between the black slaves of African ancestry (non Persons) that were owned by the Founding Fathers of this country, and the people that have been convicted of criminal acts and incarcerated. Other humans belonging to the government are those that for some reason become a 'Ward of the State'; they are not allowed to make decisions for themselves, that affect their life and welfare. Anyone that is involuntarily committed to a mental care facility becomes the property of the government. When the government decides that firearms ownership is an indicator of mental disease, you too will become the property of the government.

This woman decided to eliminate her 'property' (the child); but she did so in a way that harmed herself - for this she will be either convicted of a felony or involuntarily committed to a mental care facility. She becomes the property of the government, and loses some of her 'Personhood' in the process.

Matt G
March 4, 2006, 02:45 PM
Friends--

Be aware that we will be closing this thread if it dissolves into a debate on abortion. The law is what it is, at this point, and we of the Staff of TheHighRoad have decided that the topic is not appropriate for this venue (too divisive).

The FACT, whatever our personal feelings are about it, is that Virginia law disallows prosecution for killing the unborn baby. Discussion on the intelligence, morality, or practicality of that point is moot, at this point.

Other than that, carry on, with the promise to remain friends afterwards.

Best regards,

--Matt

bumm
March 4, 2006, 03:39 PM
It tend to agree with those who hold the view that this is a case of severe mental illness. One's views on firearms or abortion are only tangentially related here. This lady is literaly crazy and needs serious mental help, very probably in confinment.
Marty

tegemu
March 5, 2006, 07:38 PM
In some jurisdictions in our country committing murder or manslaughter on a near term woman results in TWO charges. What a consistant legal system we have, eh?

JerryM
March 5, 2006, 07:53 PM
YES.
Jerry

Lone_Gunman
March 5, 2006, 08:14 PM
Scott Peterson is on death row for the double murder of his wife and unborn child.

I think the laws are crazy on this subject. Either a fetus is a person, or not. If it is a person, then abortion is murder. If it is not a person, then Scott Peterson should not be convicted of murder of the unborn child.

In the case of this lady, I understand that Virginia law makes it illegal to kill the fetus "of another". So, following the letter of the law, I do not think what this woman did is technically illegal in Virginia.

LAK
March 6, 2006, 05:19 AM
Murder

------------------------------------

http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org

ARperson
March 6, 2006, 10:43 AM
Details of this particular case aside, it sure does illustrate the contradictions of our current judicial reasoning and the mindset of our society, doesn't it?

:scrutiny:

hso
March 6, 2006, 02:43 PM
Anyone that turns a gun on themself for whatever reason should be considered a threat to their own safety and needs intensive mental help.

c_yeager
March 6, 2006, 03:01 PM
Her body, her choice, right?

Maybe you could charge her with practicing a "constitutionally protected" medical procedure without a license or something.

Lone_Gunman
March 6, 2006, 03:54 PM
I still don't understand why Scott Peterson is in jail for double homicide if what this woman did was not wrong.

Curare
March 6, 2006, 04:05 PM
Interesting Charges

I'm sure the police initally were thinking this lady just did the unthinkable and would be spending the rest of her life in prison.

Then the prosecuter took a closer look at what he could actually charge her with.

c_yeager
March 6, 2006, 04:10 PM
I still don't understand why Scott Peterson is in jail for double homicide if what this woman did was not wrong.


It comes down to who makes the "choice".

Its OK for a woman to kill a person, so long as that person is living in her body. It isnt OK for someone else to kill that person. Kinda like its totally OK to kill an infant as long as it is living in your house, but you cant go over to your neighbors house and kill *their* children.

oh wait...

mbs357
March 6, 2006, 04:14 PM
I consider an unborn fetus to be a human life.
If she wanted to shoot her toes off, I wouldn't care.
But she killed a child, imo.

carlrodd
March 6, 2006, 04:28 PM
probably better to axe this thread. if the question is should she be charged with murder or not, yet the law in VA does not consider an unborn child a human, what's the point of the question? it's bound to turn into an abortion debate. here's one quick, peripheral jab before i avoid this thread permanently.........consider the sick heinous nature of this crime....consider all the implications of the life taking that occured....no need to respond, just consider it all in the solitude of your mind. now consider that instead of seeing something so sick for what it is, many are splitting hairs about her mental health. poor woman. put her out of her misery and everyone else's.

iocane
March 6, 2006, 04:37 PM
Lets see abortion is legal, yet she still waits till she the due. If abortion was illegal there would be some hope this mad woman would be off the streets. Its obvious that she is a homicidal maniac.

Sleeping Dog
March 6, 2006, 06:16 PM
From the article:
“In England, if a mother kills her child within the first two years of the child’s life, she is not prosecuted; she’s given mental health treatment,” Sanford said.

So basically, counseling is required for terminating 9th trimester fetuses. Interesting, if true. Anyone know England's law on the subject? I don't know if Ms Sanford is credible on the subject.

Is this case drawing national interest? I don't remember seeing it on any news shows, or hearing it on the radio. My cynical nature suspects that a reason we know the names Scott and Lacie Peterson is that they were "all-american", fairly well off, fairly good looking, young, and white. They were media magnets.

I don't know what criminal charges will accomplish. She's a mental basketcase. I just hope she blew away enough innards so she won't get pregnant again real soon. She doesn't seem to be able to handle it.

Regards.

DRZinn
March 6, 2006, 06:38 PM
IBTL.

Matt G
March 8, 2006, 11:34 AM
A: We all agree that the act was senseless madness.

B: We all agree that the woman should be confined for the safety of herself and others.

Beyond that, there's a philosophical difference that is so basic, it divides a nation.

We won't have that debate here.

To paraphrase the newly-late, great Don Knotts in his role as Barney Fife, I'm Nipping It In The Bud.

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