[Steelharp]

Ok... just who was the first guy that looked at a gun and said, "Ya know, that grip would be the perfect place to put a crapload of bullets... if I can just figure out how to get 'em outta there and up into the barrel..." ?

[kjeff50cal]

As far as cartridges in the grip, Hugo Borchardt, the Borchardt C/93 self-loading pistol http://www.lugerforum.com/ .

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=36598&stc=1&d=1141529024

kjeff50cal

[Majic]

Well the first autoloader didn't have any cartridges in the gripframe.

[kjeff50cal]

Like the M1894 Steyr Mannlicher Blow-Forward, Semi-Automatic Pistol...eh. Strange gun, loads from the top from a striper clip like an SKS.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=36603&stc=1&d=1141539041

[BHPshooter]

So then, method of loading aside, what was the first semi-automatic handgun?

Wes

[Jim Watson]

Oldest I can find mention of is the 1892 Schonberger-Laufmann. Really archaic looking, way behind the Borchardt of the next year.

[James T Thomas]

I had read some early turn of the century; twentieth, advertizing of the "Magazine Guns," as the public was generally unfamiliar with them, and the marketing concept was that they were somehow more powerful.

[MCgunner]

That Borchardt was strange, eh? LOL The grip angle is, well, WEIRD, not unlike the rest of the gun. Don't look like it'd balance too well, either, LOL.

[Jim K]

Actually, the Borchardt handles rather well. It feels odd at first because of the overhang of the recoil spring housing, but they work OK. (Work up light handloads; they will accept 7.63 Mauser ammo or even 7.62 Russian Tokarev ammo, but will be damaged by either.

In fact, the recoil spring setup, awkward as it is, is better than the Luger. The Borchardt pulls the toggles straight down. When Georg Luger decided to move the spring to the grip (the early Lugers used a flat spring), he could not get the gun to work right unless he slanted the grip back to give the spring more downward force instead of forward force. That was the real reason for the much-praised Luger grip, not the feel.

As to early, Schwarzlose also had an 1892 design. Like all of his designs, it was weird, with the cartridges placed vertically in a magazine below the barrel, pointed DOWN! The mechanism to move rounds to firing position was apparently something else.

The early auto pistols often used revolver cartridges. When Browning found they didn't work well through a magazine, he took the rim down as far as he could and ended up with the semi-rimmed .25, .32 and .38 ACP series as well as the 9mm Browning Long. After Luger came up with the true rimless cartridge, supported on the case mouth, Browning got the idea and his next two cartridges, the .380 ACP and .45 ACP were rimless.

Jim

[Trebor]

Browning also invented the concept of the reciprocating "slide" on the auto-pistol.

[BillinNH]

Ah, the Borchardt! IMHO one of the worst esthetic monstrosities in handgun design. It's always amazed me that this grotesque piece was so closely related to the P.08 Luger which I consider to be the most elegantly beautiful handgun design ever.

Not to knock the Borchardt technically. The few I've seen were impeccably built and finished. But when people knock the looks of a Highpoint I show them a picture of the Borchardt.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the C-96 Broomhandle in all of its variations. It was the first commercially successful auto-loader AFAIK.

Bill

[Walt Rauch]

"Oldest I can find mention of is the 1892 Schonberger-Laufmann. Really archaic looking, way behind the Borchardt of the next year.
__________________
I have a few facts and a lot of opinions"

As a guess you have the three books of firearms identification by Matthews?

isn't this the same gun that first used a partially cocked striker, then used in Roth-Steyr and finally by Glock?.

[HPJeep]

Not a magazine in the grip type but I think the Volcanic pistols are neat. Not an autoloader though so this would not fit the parameters of this thread. Still a neat gun though.

[grendelbane]

the marketing concept was that they were somehow more powerful

The Broomhandle Mauser especially, and most of the other early automatic pistols did have some advantages over the conventional revolver cartridges of the day. Their velocity was higher, and the full metal jacket bullets would penetrate better. Most of the revolver cartridges were low velocity. The .32 ACP would handily out-penetrate most of the various .32 revolver cartridges, and the .38 ACP, likewise, would outpenetrate most of the .38 revolver cartridges. (Remember, this was before the 38/44 was introduced.)

The .45 ACP was at least nearly equal to the .45 Colt.

So, in most cases, they offered flatter trajectory, and more penetration. By the standards of the time, they could indeed be considered more powerful.

Remember, Elmer Keith did not get around to improving loads for wheelguns until the 20s and 30s. When the Colt .38 Super was introduced in 1929 it was considered to be the most powerful handgun. If you look at things in terms of kinetic energy, this statement was probably not too far off, (if you ignore the 9mm Mauser, and a few others).:)

[RyanM]

Also, automatics don't lose any gasses to a cylinder gap. That adds a hundred fps or so, I believe, for the same muzzle to breech face length.