Shotguns..convince me


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DunedinDragon
March 5, 2006, 08:19 AM
I have a pretty decent collection of guns at this point including several handguns and some AR-15 variants. I've begun to notice that it appears a significant number of gun owners have shotguns. Since I'm not a hunter and typically fire at an indoor range which only allows slugs, would there be any particular reason for owning a shotgun?

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chipp
March 5, 2006, 08:50 AM
Because at close range (in your home) a shotgun is unequalled in stoping power. buck shot has muck less chance of ending up in your neibors house. Try Chambering a pump shotgun in the middle of the night when its dead silent. Not too many bad guys will stick around. For home protection its my first choice

kudu
March 5, 2006, 08:56 AM
Go try busting some clays sometime at a skeet or trap range. There is nothing like reactive targets that disintegrate when you pull the trigger as they fly through the air. :D

foghornl
March 5, 2006, 09:00 AM
For "Homeland Security" up close and personal, nothing beats a shotgun. I live in "The 'Burbs", so after the handgun, my next up is the 12 Ga Pump.

aguyindallas
March 5, 2006, 09:00 AM
Besides, its just another reason to add to your collection...for the sake of diversity. :D

Fly320s
March 5, 2006, 09:02 AM
Shotguns = versatility.

What other firearm can be used for hunting everything from dove to deer? With what other firearm can you easily switch from a wide coverage projectile (shot) to a precision projectile (slugs, sabots) and back at will. You can also add all the gee-whiz gadgets, such as lights.

A pump shotgun is second only to a single-shot in reliability. And it is just as tough. The shotgun isn't likely to be the target of gun-grabbers anytime soon, if you're worried about that. As a bonus, you can find them just about everywhere at very good prices, along with the ammo to feed it.

Don't put too much trust in the idea that the sound of racking a shotgun will scare away intruders. Instead, let the buckshot or slugs do the talking.

BozemanMT
March 5, 2006, 11:24 AM
Go try busting some clays sometime at a skeet or trap range. There is nothing like reactive targets that disintegrate when you pull the trigger as they fly through the air.

Exactly it. You'll be hooked for life, it's great fun.
And the 2nd best reason is as was said earlier
Because at close range (in your home) a shotgun is unequalled in stoping power.

Besides, you can't play 3Gun without 3 guns. ;)

Biker
March 5, 2006, 11:46 AM
Well, in a SHTF situation, a 12G SG can drop everything from a dove to a moose or bear.
Biker

ravencon
March 5, 2006, 01:36 PM
I haven't hunted since I was a kid. I don't do trap or skeet. I have a shotgun as part of my HD arsenal. But, I've never warmed up to the shotgun--for me it is a tool, devoid of personality.

Of course, there are many who love 'em. I'm just not one of them.

rudolf
March 5, 2006, 05:31 PM
Look at the BIG FAT Hole at the front end of the barrel. Look at the size of a slug compared to any other bullet. Now on which side of a shotgun do you want to be. Right, on the owners side. So it is best to own one :)

MrTwigg
March 5, 2006, 05:39 PM
is shooting sporting clays, think "Golf with guns". Not quite as snobby as you'd think. Challenging. Bring extra chokes and lotsa shells !

+1 on the home defense thing too.:D

MedGrl
March 5, 2006, 06:53 PM
I was looking to get a revolver as my first gun primarily for use in home defense. My friend who has been mentoring me in guns took me shooting with his shotguns a week ago and it was alot of fun.:D We went shooting Clays today and it was realy chalenging and fun. And from all the reasearch i've done and what I've seen at the range SGs are great fun to shoot and very plausable for home defense.

AF_INT1N0
March 5, 2006, 07:06 PM
would there be any particular reason for owning a shotgun?

Would there be any reason for not owning a shotgun??

But seriously
+ 1 Biker Not much you can't shoot / hunt with a shotgun.

Also they have a very easy course of fire. Also you can exchange barrels magazine sizes, and chokes, to go from weekend clay buster, to weeknight watchman.

Shotgun12
March 5, 2006, 07:06 PM
Won't even try.

It's kinda like, when someone asks a person "why do you ride a Harley?" (as opposed to another "brand") .... if they have to ask - they probably wouldn't understand anyway.

In other words - it's mostly a matter of personal preference, and what type of shooting you like to do. There are a few things that the SG can do better than a rifle, and vise-versa. As far as HD, much of it depends on situation .... the rest is personal preference.

I think if I hear anyone else mention that "pump-shotgun sound" .... I'm gonna :barf:

Anybody "nuts (or stoned) enough" to enter an occupied house .... they just might not be all that intimidated by that sound - it just might "tell them" to take cover, and open fire, at you.

U.S.SFC_RET
March 5, 2006, 10:15 PM
Big firestick, yessir big firestick. Learn to shoot one of those things an you are versatile. Dove season? good to go. Deer season? Slug barrel an you are good to go. Crowd control, SHTF? Make it a 12 guage sir, ammunition aplenty.
.410 slugs are nothing to laugh at either, albeit a little on the expensive side.

Bridger
March 5, 2006, 10:57 PM
They are just cool. Every red blooded American needs a shotgun just because of how awesome they are.

I don't know why, but almost anything with shotguns is a lot of fun. From just messing around, "plinking" with them, busting clays, practical shooting, all of it is tons of fun with those big shells and the pattern of shot instead of a single projectile.

lrb111
March 5, 2006, 10:57 PM
http://www.special-operations-technology.com/article.cfm?DocID=491
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_9_50/ai_n6125526
http://www.firequest.com/catalog/12_gauge_ammunition.html

less than lethal, check the product lists
http://www.securityandsafetysupply.com/product-firearms/Gauge10.html
http://www.iejs.com/TechnologyandCrime/Law_Enforcement_Technology/less_than_lethal_weapons.htm

There are also flechette, flares, rubber shot, rocket shapes, rubber dum dums, rubber covered steel balls. Too much to list.

With a pistol grip, folding stock, speed loaders...............

355sigfan
March 5, 2006, 11:08 PM
QUOTE
{Because at close range (in your home) a shotgun is unequalled in stoping power. buck shot has muck less chance of ending up in your neibors house. Try Chambering a pump shotgun in the middle of the night when its dead silent. Not too many bad guys will stick around. For home protection its my first choice}
END QUOTE

Actually 223 softpoints are just as safe inside as buckshot. The .223 is also a very effective stopper with softpoints.
Pat

Coltdriver
March 5, 2006, 11:28 PM
A shotgun loaded with .30 cal pellets has the firepower of a machinegun and its legal!

355sigfan
March 5, 2006, 11:35 PM
More like the power of a submachinegun firing 32 auto.
Pat

JShirley
March 5, 2006, 11:47 PM
Pat's right.

Even when using the 12, I only use reduced recoil slugs now.

John

355sigfan
March 5, 2006, 11:52 PM
I do like the possibilities of the new line of reduced penetration slugs marketed for home defense. I like the 12 gauge as a big bore rifle. Like you I am not a huge buckshot fan.
Pat

ArmedBear
March 6, 2006, 01:53 AM
If all you do is shoot at indoor ranges that allow slugs, I wouldn't try to convince you to get a shotgun. A slug gun is a state-mandated handicap for deer hunting. Otherwise, it's a very-high-recoil, inaccurate, annoying, heavy, bulky carbine. A .45-70 lever carbine would be far superior on all counts.

Shoot clay sports, though, and you will learn to use and love a shotgun. And slugs won't seem so bad when you do shoot them. Shotguns are made to be pointed, not aimed. If you want to aim your gun and you don't want to shoot multiple projectiles, there are better options -- unless your state requires a slug gun for deer hunting.

ArmedBear
March 6, 2006, 01:57 AM
Well, in a SHTF situation, a 12G SG can drop everything from a dove to a moose or bear.

Only in the hands of someone who has practiced with it.

I love shotguns. I shoot other guns less and less. Clay things flying through the air are infinitely more fun to shoot than anything else I've tried. But shooting slugs at an indoor range sounds like something that would give someone a really negative impression of shotguns!

Lonestar.45
March 6, 2006, 02:05 AM
I love my handguns and rifles. But, shooting 25 rounds indoors at paper with my rifle is no fun at all compared to shooting 25 shells in sporting clays or skeet. It's just plain fun.

If that's not your game, and you need another reason, then home defense should work for you. NOTHING compares to a shotgun in close quarters short of a full automatic.

LJWebster1
March 6, 2006, 10:46 AM
Anyone who thinks shotguns have no peronality hasn't been looking at the right guns. Now, I've only got a Winchester 1300 pump right now, but I have been coveting a Beretta over/under for some time now. You cannot look at, much less, hold one of these guns and then tell me shotguns are just tools. These are works of art. And seeing a target turn to powder when you hit it dead on is one of the greatest feelings there is. You NEED to go shoot clays.

355sigfan
March 6, 2006, 11:38 AM
QUOTE
{Shotguns are made to be pointed, not aimed. If you want to aim your gun and you don't want to shoot multiple projectiles, there are better options -- unless your state requires a slug gun for deer hunting.}

End quote

Thats not true of home defense shotguns which should be aimed just like a rifle. In fact even with clays I have shot my share and usually I find myself using the bead and aiming at the clay target. As for slug guns. Breneke Slugs are very effective at dropping large animals like bears when they attack.

Pat

waterhouse
March 6, 2006, 12:38 PM
If someone ever invites you to go duck hunting, it sure would be a shame to have to turn them down :D

ArmedBear
March 6, 2006, 02:36 PM
Thats not true of home defense shotguns which should be aimed just like a rifle.

Aiming something like a rifle, instead of being familiar enough with it to point it accurately, is a liability, not an asset at close ranges. Lining up sights takes time; pointing well with both eyes open is quick, but it takes practice that a lot of people are unwilling to get. Even rifles intended for close range defense (all express rifles and other cheaper alternatives like Remington and Ruger bolt action "guide rifles" or "dangerous game rifles") are designed to be pointed. The Scout Rifle, also, is designed for both-eyes-open aiming through a long-relief low-power scope; this is the long-range answer to the limitations of close-range pointing. Cheek weld, point, shoot. Quickest way to stop an approaching threat.

If I am consciously aware of my beads when I'm shooting clays, I generally miss. If I'm consciously aware of the clay and subconsciously aware of the barrel, I almost always hit the clay.

If you have to shoot an intruder at close range, that means your life is under immediate threat and you have VERY little time to end that threat. You'd best know how to point your gun. In semi-darkness, this is even more true, and night sights are an expensive and unnecessary distraction at close range.

scout26
March 6, 2006, 08:24 PM
Find a trap or skeet range, buy a couple boxes of shells, Rent or borrow a shotgun and try to hit the evil orange frisbees.

If you do not have fun, do not get a shotgun.

UWstudent
March 6, 2006, 08:40 PM
am i just stupid or what? but whats a SHTF situation?

but oh golly, you need a shotgun if its what i'm thinking it is (zombies)

ArmedBear
March 6, 2006, 08:46 PM
when the Shi'ite Hits The Fan

(Or, if you are Shia, when the Sunni Hits The Fan)

355sigfan
March 6, 2006, 09:46 PM
QUOTE
Aiming something like a rifle, instead of being familiar enough with it to point it accurately, is a liability, not an asset at close ranges. Lining up sights takes time; pointing well with both eyes open is quick, but it takes practice that a lot of people are unwilling to get. Even rifles intended for close range defense (all express rifles and other cheaper alternatives like Remington and Ruger bolt action "guide rifles" or "dangerous game rifles") are designed to be pointed
END QUOTE

Wrong. If you aim at nothing thats what you will hit. Point shooting does not work. Rifles are designed to be aimed not pointed. Lininng up the sights takes time but ensures good hits. At close range buck shot is in fist sized patterns you must aim. I have been teaching people to shoot for a while now and will attest that point shooting is best left to the trick shooters. For life and death use the sights and stay alive. The first person to cut meat usually wins not the first person to make a loud noise.
Pat

kudu
March 6, 2006, 10:06 PM
Wrong. If you aim at nothing thats what you will hit. Point shooting does not work. Rifles are designed to be aimed not pointed. Lininng up the sights takes time but ensures good hits. At close range buck shot is in fist sized patterns you must aim. I have been teaching people to shoot for a while now and will attest that point shooting is best left to the trick shooters. For life and death use the sights and stay alive. The first person to cut meat usually wins not the first person to make a loud noise.

A lot of BS in this statement, not all, but enough to twist other statements around. A shotgun is meant to be pointed, not just jabbed in the general direction of a target like pointing a handgun. A real shotgunner doesn't notice his gun barrel, beads, or sights. All attention is on the target and if the gunner is even the least bit good he will hit where he looks. "Note" this is with a shouldered gun that is comfortable to the shooter. You should be able to be in complete dark without seeing your gun at all and be able to hit a target that is illuminated within a reasonable distance, 40-50 yards with shot, and out to 30yards with buck or slug, if your gun fits you at all.

355sigfan
March 6, 2006, 10:16 PM
No bs at all. If you want to hit you will aim. If you don't care and are willing to use luck then point. Your post however was full of BS.
Pat

ezypikns
March 6, 2006, 11:25 PM
and then about the first of September, find a place to go dove hunting. Now THAT'S fun.

ezypikns
March 6, 2006, 11:35 PM
about wingshooting or clays with a shotgun. If you concentrate on anything other than your moving target, bead, barrel, whatever, you'll more than likely miss it. Of course, you also need to factor in speed of the bird or clay, and angles, THEN you should hit it. I have seen miracles though. Hit clays and dead birds have continued on their way, just like I didn't hit them.

ARTiger
March 6, 2006, 11:59 PM
Having a few targets around the hunting cabin to blow apart this season, I tried a few varieties of shells at old appliances. I used to think that 00 buck was the meanest thing short of a slug to come out of a shotgun.

That was until I shot a fridge at about 15 yards with a 3 1/2" BBB Remington High Velocity Hevishot duck/goose load. Thats about three dozen .20 caliber sized "heavier than lead" balls flying at 1550 fps according to the box.

Whereas 2 3/4" 00 buck shot loads left 8-9 .30 cal holes in the sheet steel front door in about a dinner plate sized group; the 3 1/2 goose blaster shells were making BIG single holes (with a few smaller fliers outside the main part of the pattern). These were single fist sized entry holes some 6" wide!!!

Only thing I've ever seen like that was from a .50 BMG.

ArmedBear
March 7, 2006, 01:09 AM
Point shooting does not work.

Well, I figure if I can consistently hit a 6" target moving in random directions at 30+ MPH 30 yards away, it just might work on a 6' target moving towards me at 5+ MPH 10 feet away, but hey what would I know.:rolleyes:

Point shooting a shotgun does NOT mean not looking down the barrel. It means not looking AT the barrel. There's a world of difference between looking down the barrel, past the bead, AT the target, vs. looking AT the sight at the end of the barrel, with the target beyond it.

And yeah, if that sounds really unfamiliar, I guess you'd better use rifle sights because a shotgun, as you said, shoots golfball sized patterns at close range. But I'd also question why, exactly, I was shooting a high-recoil, loud, muzzle-flashing shotgun when I'd be far better off with a carbine that I was comfortable aiming and shooting.

A real shotgunner doesn't notice his gun barrel, beads, or sights. All attention is on the target and if the gunner is even the least bit good he will hit where he looks.

...especially at a man-sized target at HD ranges! If it's too far to point shoot, a civilian like me would probably be looking at a murder charge, not self-defense.

And kudu is NOT someone I'd arbitrarily challenge to a trap shoot-off for money, since it appears he knows how to shoot a shotgun.:D

If you don't care and are willing to use luck then point.

I seriously don't think you are hearing what we're saying when we say "point". It's not about luck; the way you use your eyes is just different from how you use them with a rifle. Pointing a shotgun does NOT mean hip-shooting or shooting prematurely. It involves, first and foremost, a good cheek-weld, and second, a lot of patience and practice.

355sigfan
March 7, 2006, 01:37 AM
I was not hearing what you were saying. Your description has more incommon with aiming than pointing. Pointing does not refrence the gun at all. Your aiming its just your focus is on the target and not the bead.
Pat

ArmedBear
March 7, 2006, 02:06 AM
It's sort of neither.

A well-practiced point-shooter doesn't aim with the bead, but DOES reference the gun in two ways:

1. Physically. The way the gun feels in the shoulder and against the cheek.
2. Visually, but subconsciously. You'd know if the gun were NOT in the right place, but many good shotgunners will say "once I mount the gun, I don't even SEE the barrel any more." That's not quite accurate. They just don't look at it unless something is awry, and their brain is trained to notice if it is. The barrel just appears, consistently, in a certain place in their field of vision, so they can ignore it.

A well-practiced point-shooter points the gun using the whole body, with the gun as an extension of the body. The gun doesn't move; the body does. This allows the brain to just "know" where the gun is pointed, without concentrating on the bead or barrel.

With a rifle or pistol, we are instructed to focus on the front sight, and often to use one eye. With a shotgun, we are instructed to lock the gun against our shoulders and cheeks and let the bead go blurry as our eyes focus on the target -- preferably both eyes.

This has little in common with quickdraw pistol point shooting, which also uses the body as a reference. Good cowboy-style pistol point shooters don't visually reference the gun at all; they use their highly-trained proprioception to just "know" where the gun is pointed in space. This requires a great deal of talent and practice, though some people can get very good at it. I will be the first to agree that this is not a reliable or sensible way to shoot for defense for 99% of even very good handgunners. Some can do it, and there are old gravestones around the West to prove it. But most people can't.

c_yeager
March 7, 2006, 03:21 AM
Hold it in your hand, look at the size of the opening at the muzzle, look at the shells, rack the slide; if that doesnt sell you then you just aint gonna be saved.

Nematocyst
March 7, 2006, 04:57 AM
Hold it in your hand, look at the size of the opening at the muzzle, look at the shells, rack the slide;
if that doesnt sell you then you just aint gonna be saved.Amen, and amen.

For HD/SD, I'll take my 870(P) over any gun ever made, bar none.

At 15',
point/aim,
aim/point.

What/ever.

00 buck.
1 in the chamber,
4 more in the magazine.

Racking in the quiet of the night isn't an issue for me.

Just a click of the safety as it's switched to 'off' position.

Point/aim, aim/point, what/ever.

1 rnd of 00 buck,
let alone 5,
will punch a hole in an intruder
(at the distance across my sleeping space)
MUCH larger than 9mm, .38 spl, .223 (w/ or w/o hollow point),
.45 ACP (oh, bow to the mighty .45), .308, what ever.

My 870(P) is mere inches from my sleeping spot.

Whoa be him that enters there unannounced
(which would require a bit of 'hacking' with some tools)
with violence on his mind.

And for those who think that a shotgun has no soul,
just bust into the space of a shotgun owner
in the middle of night unannounced,
with violent intention towards him/her,
and they'll show you 'no soul'.

Word up.

YMMV.

:neener: ;) :cool:

Nem

355sigfan
March 7, 2006, 05:55 AM
For stopping power I would take a good 223 softpoint over buck any day. Now slugs on the other hand do leave a more destructive wound than 223.

Buck is like hitting someone with a bunch of 32 auto pocket pistol rounds.
Pat

Nematocyst
March 7, 2006, 06:06 AM
Buck is like hitting someone with a bunch of 32 auto pocket pistol rounds.The key word there is 'bunch', where 'bunch' is all at once rather than sequentially.

That's 8 or 9 .32 rnds ALL AT ONCE.

So, like, what's your point?

I think mine is fairly obvious.

:)

Nem

355sigfan
March 7, 2006, 06:33 AM
Rather its all at once or one after another its still not that impressive. Buck is most effective when its fired from close enough range where the buck has not spread much and acts like a slug.

My point is buckshot is ok but nothing special.
Pat

waterhouse
March 7, 2006, 11:48 AM
Wrong. If you aim at nothing thats what you will hit. Point shooting does not work. Rifles are designed to be aimed not pointed. Lininng up the sights takes time but ensures good hits. At close range buck shot is in fist sized patterns you must aim. I have been teaching people to shoot for a while now and will attest that point shooting is best left to the trick shooters. For life and death use the sights and stay alive. The first person to cut meat usually wins not the first person to make a loud noise.

A couple months ago I bought Lee Measures "Shoot Where You Look" book. I've been using a CZ 452 american (a model with no sights) and CB rounds to complete the program. I haven't put as much time into the program as you are supposed to (30 minutes a day, every day) so it is taking me a little longer to see results, but I'd say I'm destroying ping pong balls with pretty good consistency at 8-10 yards. I'm not sighting down the barrel at all, simply mounting the gun to the same point every time and just looking at the target. My eye never lowers to the stock or anything.

It works remarkably well. I'm sure my hit percentage would go up slightly if I used a .22 with sights and took my time to aim, but I wouldn't be nearly so fast on target. And when I miss, I'm just barely missing a ping pong ball sized target.

I've probably mounted the .22 a couple thousand times in the past couple months, and I'm pretty familiar with it now. I had my doubts about he program at first, but I am sure that if you are familiar with a shotgun that fits you and you mount it to the same place every time and you practice a lot you will hit a target that you are looking at (without "aiming". . .taking the time to line up sights, at the target.)

Guys who do clay games have already mounted their guns thousands of times, are very familiar with the fit of their guns, and they hit moving discs flying through the air by focusing on the disc. They don't take the time to line up the sights, and they do make good hits on small fast moving targets. It seems that these principles would also apply to home defense.

danurve
March 7, 2006, 05:41 PM
If you Don't add a shotgun to your collection;
eventually the Evil Clowns will find you while your sleeping and Eat Your Brain.

Shotgun12
March 7, 2006, 07:46 PM
.... A real shotgunner doesn't notice his gun barrel, beads, or sights. All attention is on the target and if the gunner is even the least bit good he will hit where he looks. "Note" this is with a shouldered gun that is comfortable to the shooter ....
In the world of Archery, this is known as "Instinctive Shooting". When you shoot a Long Bow, (which has no sights), you're using what's called "Muscle Memory" .... or body memory. You don't use the arrow to "aim" - if you try, it'll screw you up .... however the subconscious mind 'may' be aware of it.

The best shooters aren't "aware" of their arrow. With 'LOTS" of practice, many people can learn to be a pretty good shot. I've known of professional longbow shooters that have won matches, against "compound bow shooters" (who use sights).

The same principles apply to throwing a baseball - which obviously has no sights. Your body just "remembers" where everything has to be, in relation to the target .... as you release the ball, (or fire the weapon).

stiletto raggio
March 9, 2006, 10:57 PM
I think this thread has some great information on it regarding instinctive shooting, particularly as it effects shotguns. While it is true that clay shooting is instinctive and that these principles apply to close-in combat shooting, a shotgun loaded with buckshot spreads only about one inch per three-seven yards (depending on choke, backboring, etc). That means that at the medium ranges that are the maximum effective range for combat shotguns loaded with buckshot (somewhere between 25 and 35 yards) the spread is only between four and eleven inches. Hence, rifle-type sights are very useful at the limits of shotgun range. I am beating a dead horse, I think, but I think having rifle sights on a combat shotgun makes sense. The differences between a combat shotgun and a home defense shotgun are pretty man, however, so I guess it comes down to how paranoid you are.

As for the greatness of shotguns in general, I own many, from a barely legal sawed-down Mossberg 5500 to a Beretta Silver Pigeon III sprting clays gun. The first is purely a fun gun while the second is for serious competition, but they both are a blast to shoot. I guess there is just a primal joy (not to mention an impressive terminal effect) in sending between one and two ounces of lead flying out of a barrel at one time. Pick up a $200 Mossberg at Wal-Mart, take it to a clays range and you will be addicted. I have taken more than ten newbies skeet shooting in the last three months and every one of them wlaked away saying the same thing: "I have got to get one of these."

rudolf
March 12, 2006, 11:38 PM
355sigfan:
Wrong. If you aim at nothing thats what you will hit. Point shooting does not work. Rifles are designed to be aimed not pointed.

I have a short single shot shotgun without any sights at all.
I do manage to keep slugs in the black of a UIT pistol target a 25 yards.
For most folks doing this with a pistol is hard enough even with the sights.
Applying your pistol and urban rifle instructers wisdom to shotguns obviously lacks wisdom.

355sigfan
March 12, 2006, 11:53 PM
I am an instructor for Pistols, Rifles and Shotguns. Hitting at 25 yards with a handgun is not all that hard. In fact 50 is fairly easy for someone with even a moderate amount of skill. I sometimes practice at 100 yards with my pistols.

A single shot shotgun is a poor home defense choice for obvious reasons. And if you aim at nothing thats exactly what you will hit. You need to aim your shotgun in home defense ranges just like a rifle. Your shot patern is about the size of a fist at these ranges and its very easy to miss. If you miss with your only shot your really hosed.
Pat

Fred Fuller
March 16, 2006, 02:12 PM
You know, I have sure brought home an awful lot of bobwhite quail and doves over the years that I never ever nohow aimed at but somehow still managed to hit with a shotgun.

Didn't know that wasn't possible, reckon it's good nobody ever told me until now. Heck, I doubt I'll ever be able to hit another'n now that I know, might as well stay home from here on out. Somebody will probably tell the whitetails that buckshot is nothing special too, and that will put an end to deer hunting.

Shucks.

lpl/nc -)

sm
March 16, 2006, 03:45 PM
I never dismiss any firearm or weapon , including a single shot shotgun.

Granted there are those that do believe -Pass enough laws and everyone will be a felon and felons being executed or taking up Cell Space will not have a need for any firearm, or weapon including a single shot shotgun.

I am not one of these. In fact my Mentors and Elders suggest folks hoard single shot shotguns and .22 rifles. The handgun of day used by LEO was the Model 10 , so these along Real 1911 and BHPs were suggested as well. Lever Action Rifles and Model 70's...still the basics were the single shot shotgun.

I am in The South. I have passed out single shot shotguns to folks that lost all firearms due to Tornado, floods and such. Looters, snakes, rabid critters...even food for the table were handles just fine with the single shot shotgun. I not long ago passed some out.

Now I had a classmate as an Exchange Student from a Another Country. A Country that was in "conflict". A Country where the folks hoarded up single shot shotguns and .22 rifles. See the Powers had pretty much confiscated any firearms.
Seems the men-folk were left with axes, hoes and such to protect the village at night and the Women and kids hid in the mountains at night as - the Conflicting party really liked to Rape Females - made no matter what age, Raping sent a message.

Classmate and Sister ran to the hills at night with the other Females and kids. Daddy had a Single Shot 12 ga, Brother had a single shot .22 rifle. Illegal, hidden...just in case raided again. All the Farm implements were sharp and kept handy.

Everyone trained and practiced in various drills to protect best could.

Brother and another young man did not return from a nearby village one day when all was supposed to be 'quiet' they had gone to get medicine.

Two days later her brother and friend was found on a road leading into their village, skinned alive all staked out.

Brother's friend had a 12 ga single shot shotgun hidden. He was the last of his family - everyone else of his family had been kidnapped, rape, killed...

Daddy found son's gun still hidden and gave to younger daughter. Brother's friends 12 ga ( as pre- agreed upon in the event something happened) given to Eldest daughter - the Classmate relating this to me.

"We were making our way to our hiding spot in the hills. We were ambused about a third way there. One of the girls up ahead was grabbed and clothes stripped off and intentions were made clear, all of were going to be kidnapped , and raped repeatedly at will until such time they had had enough of us or we died from abuse.

I killed a man with 12 ga single shot, I killed a second one, little sister killed one too with that single shot rifle. Other women had guns too, we divided up what we illegally had b/t us and the men in the village. It was awful. We ran up as we knew the hills better, and hid in a different spot each night. We were too late for the 12 year old raped and then throat slashed. We killed all the attackers and stole their weapons..."

This exchange student survived and later family were able to escape, short version she grew older and came to US as an exchange student.

This is exactly why my Mentors and Elders suggested hoarding simple to use, non dependent / less maintance firearms. We had no idea of what to expect with Cuba pointing missles at us, JFK dead, Gun control acts...we already knew about being responsible for one's self with Tornados, floods, fires and such.

This classmate and others I took out to shoot. Some students and where from - guns are not part of the culture. When this particular classmate shared- it was tough for her to relate, tough to listen. This classmate knew more about COTUS than many born and raised in the States.

"We just had a pc of cloth for a sling, I had a small oil lamp, sister had a candle, I cannot tell you what kind of guns or the ammo...I can tell you we did not want to be repeatedly raped , tortured, killed and then displayed on the side of a road".

No fancy guns, no fancy lights, no fancy edged weapons, no training other than what the village taught and observed from some very harsh real lessons.

"We just wanted to live that night, did not think about tomorrows, just live right now".

Shotgun have and always will be a useful tool in keeping folks breathing.
Be it food on the table, protection from animals or humans that wish them harm or death.

Shotguns are very versatile.

A tool is only as good as user of said tool. The best tool is the brain.

It is not good to indoctrinate one's brain, or brains of others in such a manner to preclude them from using the Whole brain.

LEOs have been killed when looking for a brass bucket when doing a reload in a real gunfight.
Clay target shooters have to call for a clay, or in the old days listened to the sound of a trap and began moving the gun, when the new machines came to be - these shooters had fits hitting clays.
Some folks shooting IDPA/ IPSC cannot shoot until a timer buzzes, there may not be timers in the real world when the Elephant shows up...

The Retired LEO buddy that came to visit, well such a hassle to bring a gun, especially since he flew in from Europe. He was legal here to CCW and did borrow a Revolver to carry and a 1300 to use at the house his daughter was buying. Daughter kept a single shot shotgun at her former apt she stayed in while attending college.

First she bought herself a backup CCW, then a 870 in 20 ga, then a Marlin 60 . She later added a Model 94 in 30-30.

She can and has been able to feel secure, shoot game and put food on the table, and most often uses the 870 20 ga. She is good with it. The single shot is always handy, and has been loaned to a few folks in need. It too has proven itself, in feeling secure when a broke college student and easy to get into and out of an apt. Take game, and have fresh game to eat.
Shotgun ONLY zones means not matter what else one has in a long gun, only the shotgun is allowed. So hers was a single shot, the doe didn't know that.

"Us" versus "Them" - Not just this LEO vs Regular folks, even though LEO are included in this divison as are other Professionals such as Doctors.

Divisons within the ranks of Firearm Owners does as much harm as the Gun Control Folks.

Sometimes Firearms, such as shotguns, even single shot shotguns are used to promote Responsible Firearm Ownership. Maybe hunting, shooting clays, how about a kid inheriting Grandpa's single shot shotgun and shooting balloons?

Some folks need to look at the Big Picture of Life. Not everything in life revolves around work, or play. Bigger Reality is , not everyone is like them. Some folks do nothing but work, some are retired, some are women, some are kids. Some live in cities, some in remote areas.

Shotguns are just part of the big picture of life. Again, part of the big picture is there are a lot of different ones and different folks using for different or multiple tasks.

Then again we could all share similar jail cells, wear the same clothes, eat the same food, and not worry firearms, shotguns or anything else.

Complacency in not Promoting Responsible Firearm Ownership, Negative Attitudes and Portrayals of Firearm Ownership , "Us" vs "Them" Divisions amongst ourselves...And just flat talking down to folks wanting to learn does no good - instead Promotes the Gun Grabber view and gets us all nearer to being felons.

Too many kids have learned with a BB Gun shooting Ping Pong balls to become great shotgunners.

Too many Aerial Gunners learned to shoot shotguns using skeet , then later shooting moving targets from moving vehicles to Protect this Country.

Too many folks shooting shotguns at moving targets from moving vehicles - not aerial gunners - have also protected and continue to Protect this Country.

Close mindedness opens the gate to ignorance.

Steve

waterhouse
March 16, 2006, 04:26 PM
355sigfan,

Can you please explain what you mean by "aim?"

355sigfan
March 17, 2006, 05:44 PM
Focusing on the front sight. The Alaska State Troopers and the Anchorage Police department both train with sighted fire. As study done in the mid 90's showed that when all the shootings from both departments were totaled together the hit ratio was 94%. The national average is 17%. The difference in hitting and not hitting is training.

Pat

mswestfall
March 17, 2006, 11:29 PM
I like working with new shooters at our shotgun range. I find one of the harder thing to get adults to do is to stop aiming a shotgun. Younger shooters often outshoot their parents (if neither has shot before) because they take instruction better. They tend to look at the bird better and not get distracted by the things going on around them.

RMc
May 4, 2008, 09:36 PM
Shotguns are indeed versatile:

A twelve bore loaded with Rio 1 ounce loads of #12 shot will take out snakes in the burbs but won't penetrate a sheet of cardboard at 50 yards.

Loaded with Hevi-Shot Dead Coyote T shot, canine predators quickly fall to the deadly swarm of .20 caliber shot.

Loaded with Dixie buckshot, each 3/4 ounce pellet equals the .44 magnum in impact and penetration. From Boar Hog gristle shield to windshields and car doors, all are no match for big buckshot.

Stuffed with Terminator rounds from a rifled tube, the 12 bore is transformed into a .73 caliber express rifle with close range penetration right up there with the .416 Rigby's 400 grain Partition bullets but 12 blows a bigger hole!

Yes the shotgun is versatile - especially when you check out the possibilities beyond "Remchester"

RMc

oneounceload
May 4, 2008, 09:44 PM
damn, there's some pretty interesting folks here......especially those who have no idea what to use a shotgun for...........wow......I thought that was reserved for the NYC/DC and others crowd.....never thought it was for the"regular" crowd of folks who knew which end of a gun to look down......

scythefwd
May 4, 2008, 10:45 PM
fly320s "Shotguns = versatility.

What other firearm can be used for hunting everything from dove to deer? With what other firearm can you easily switch from a wide coverage projectile (shot) to a precision projectile (slugs, sabots) and back at will. You can also add all the gee-whiz gadgets, such as lights."

You left out black powder. You can shoot shot, rifled slugs, sabots, and now blackpowder with just the change of the barrel in mossberg shotguns now. Everything else can do it all but bp.

Regolith
May 4, 2008, 10:54 PM
scythe....eh? I'm pretty sure you could use bp shotgun shells in just about any pump or single shot shotgun. It'd just be a little dirty.


Or did you mean Mossberg has a barrel that turns the gun into a muzzle-loader? That's a bit different.

scythefwd
May 4, 2008, 11:06 PM
Regolith,
I mean as a true, blackpowder, muzzle loading firearm with a powderload, wad, and maxiball or sabot not contained in a single cartridge. Mossberg has a barrel that turns the 500 into a .50 cal muzzleloader using 209 primers and up to 90 grains of Black powder.

Sorry if I was unclear, you make a good point though.

RP88
May 5, 2008, 12:09 PM
why to buy a shotgun:
-trap/clay is fun
-shooting a gun with alot of kick can be fun if you dont whine about your shoulder
-the firepower for HD/CQC is only rivaled by a flamethrower:neener:
-it's fun to take friends and money match them to see who can land the most clays/skeet, or land the most shot onto a paper target at 25yds. (like drunken darts, but without booze and with explosions).
-the price for a good one is about 300 or so bucks

MCgunner
May 5, 2008, 12:41 PM
For the tin foil hat crowd, there's always TEOTWAWKI scenarios to justify any firearm from .22s to howitzers. :D

Me, I shoot birds with mine. A nice coach gun makes a highly portable outdoor do all survival weapon, though. Nothing like a shotgun for safe room security and it's one intimidating weapon to stare down the business end of. If you never get outdoors, don't know what "woods" are, never seen the land outside the city limits of NYC, well, your justification is going to be home defense or some tin foil hat scenario, I reckon.

QUICK_DRAW_McGRAW
May 5, 2008, 02:47 PM
go rent a shot gun and do some clay shooting, its cheap fun for a few hours, if you dont like it, that fine, if you do then go get a shottie.

and in reference of these kids in here argueing, seriously, shut up they guy is asking a question, and probally not intrested in your childish debate on this little misiscule point or that miniscule point.

noskilz
May 5, 2008, 03:35 PM
Very interesting thread to resurrect after two years. Anything with one of SM's classics can't be all bad. :)

Indifferent
May 5, 2008, 05:28 PM
90% of this thread does not make much sense to me.

amprecon
May 7, 2008, 05:34 PM
Shotguns were the real guns that won the west if that's of any significance to anyone. I've heard and read that nearly every family that headed into the west way back when had at least one shotgun and sometimes it was the only weapon they had. But it was the shotgun that was the primary weapon depended on in the frontier and it was the logical choice.
From dove to elk the shotgun could take them all on and was mostly efficient at it too.
And don't forget the rocksalt loads for engaging critters that needed to learn a lesson or two.

bigdaddydan
May 7, 2008, 05:47 PM
for home defense and cqb a shotgun is one of the best weapons for selfdefense and one of the most simplest and easiest guns to learn how to operate and become very self proficient with

Flopsy
May 12, 2008, 05:45 PM
Because a 3 inch slug in an engine block will stop a vehicle coming up the driveway.

And just shoot one...that will convince you.

sixgunner455
May 12, 2008, 08:34 PM
90% of this thread makes me giggle.

To me, shotguns are for clays and quail and doves and snakes and rabbits and... But I have one 20 guage Spanish SxS that I use for games and small game. That is all. My wife is looking at a youth 20 guage pump, what she likes, that we will probably get later this year.

And Steve, not a giggle, but very well put.

OP: They are useful to many, many people for many, many things because they are versatile and powerful. Get one if it suits a need, or for fun if you find you like shooting clays. Don't if it doesn't.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
May 13, 2008, 12:20 AM
A. Maybe you should start hunting birds, and then you'd have a bigtime use for them. Actually don't start hunting or you'll end up with 5-10 shotguns like me. I have one shottie dedicated to home defense, and 5 more dedicated to hunting, not counting the 7th "shotgun" which is actually a rifled barrel, uhhhmmm, rifle, using a 12 ga shell to launch slugs.

B. Because they are absolutely devastating at short range vs. attackers intent on harming you. 10-12 pellets of .32 cal lead balls (000 buckshot) from a 12 gauge is like shooting someone 10-12 times with a .32 auto pistol, in ONE shot. Bad guy => Down!

C. If you start hunting large game, because they are devastating with slugs. Using something like a Buckhammer, Brenneke, Dixie, or Lightfield slug, they are among the best heavy, tough bone & gristle penetrators for large mean nasty animals like bear or tusky feral hogs.

D. Extreme versatility from one gun has been mentioned.

Of all these, I like "B" reason the best - shoot a juice bottle filled with water with a 12 ga 00 or 000 buckshot shell, and you will be a believer in the devastation.

BeJaRa
May 13, 2008, 03:55 PM
the 32 auto comparison is not quit accurate given the fact that the pellets from bucksot are on average going to be traveling a couple of hundred FPS faster than a standard 32 acp. Plus the ft/lbs of energy on buckshot exceed a 223 with in home engagement ranges. I know shoot what you are comfortable with, but other than magazine capacity I don't see how a carbine, rifle or handgun could even begin to compare to a shotgun in CQB or home defense. 9 seperate wound channels with 1 shot is alot for any living animal to survive. not to mention a shotgun makes a much better club than an AR or a handgun if things get really bad

akanotken
May 14, 2008, 02:32 AM
and shoot type experience.

For me, the real sellor are clays. Completely different style of shooting, you have a small window of time, it's moving, you are swinging a gun ... and when it all comes together you get a little cloud of clays dust.

Go to your yellow pages and look for shotgun field, or trap field, or skeet field or sporting clays ... if they are around you, then you definitely need to see if one has rentable shotguns and a coach and give it a try!

Shotgun is great for HD, but it isn't necessary, plenty of rifles or handguns to get that job done.

If you get into hunting, the versatility is impressive. And shooting at mobile game is often best left to shotguns (rabbit, squirrel, dove, quail, duck, etc).

Craft714
May 14, 2008, 04:00 AM
the ability to remove body parts.:evil:

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