Which 1911s can be carried in #1?


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cavman
March 5, 2006, 09:30 AM
That is, with the chamber loaded and the trigger brought back and locked in place.

With so many 1911 styles out there I was wondering if all are capable of being carried in this manner.

So my question is which can be carried in this manner? Does every Colt? Only some styles of Colt ect. Every Springfield?

It seems to be an option for some and not for others. That is all well and good. However, if one were to buy a quality 1911 is there a "specification" that states "able to be carried in Condition #1?"

cavman

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AirForceShooter
March 5, 2006, 09:44 AM
All 1911's are the same mechanically.
Condition 1 is the way it was orginally designed to be carried. It's perfectly safe.
Is there a specification that says it's ok? Nope.

AFS

mwpslp
March 5, 2006, 11:25 AM
I believe you mean the hammer cocked back, not the trigger. Any manufacturer you talk to will tell you NOT to carry cocked and locked but that is only because it seems to be the PC thing to say.The 1911's were made to be carried condition #1 which is how I personally carry it.

cavman
March 5, 2006, 01:07 PM
HAMMER!! Man, brain freeze. Yes, the hammer brought back.

Well, good to know that all 1911s are of the design that can be carried in that manner. I was thinking that all the design manufacturers that are out there might have different designs that makes them unique yet still similar enough to be called a 1911. I didn't realize that they were actually, truly the same design.

I was thinking this as there are issues of locks, safeties ect that many on this board are sticklers about in one way or another, and that perhaps the "dangerous" carrying of #1 may have been removed from one company's design, perhaps "lawyered up".

So is it "merely" quality and customer support that sets them apart that gets so many 1911 fans fired up and loyal to some but hate others?

have a great day
cavman

mwpslp
March 5, 2006, 01:25 PM
Well some 1911's like what would commonly be called the series 80 Colts have a firing pin block as well. Some do not like them because it can make for a trigger pull that is not as smooth as say one without the firing pin block commonly referred to as a series 70 Colt. Kimber for example has a firing pin block on their newer series II guns but did not have them on their series I guns. Springfield has gone to their ILS system which I believe is kind of pointless. Whether you call it an ILS security system or a firing pin block, the general concensus seems to be that these things have been done for the lawyers and such.

Black Majik
March 5, 2006, 03:23 PM
EVERY 1911 can be carried in Condition 1.

Everything else that looks like, feels like, or wants to be a 1911 isn't a 1911. :D

Technosavant
March 5, 2006, 03:52 PM
The only 1911 that won't do that is the Para LDA, but that is arguably not a 1911. Any other 1911 model, assuming it was built well and hasn't been boogered up by incompetent gunsmithing, will be quite happy in condition 1.

rellascout
March 5, 2006, 03:56 PM
Condition 1 is the only way to carry a 1911 unless you ar planning on throwing it at the bad guy.

Trying to cock and firing under stress is not a good idea IMHO.

shield20
March 5, 2006, 05:09 PM
Condition 1 on a 1911 no problem.

If your adventurous - get yourself an XD - they are carried cocked and UNlocked. No one seems to have a problem with that.

Lot of guns these days that are carried in..."less safe" condition then the 1911 in condition 1. Seems at the same time we are getting internal locks stuffed down our throats, they are making the pistols themselves "easier" to fire. Not necessarily a bad thing.

Picking a 1911 is ALL about brand quality - some are good, some are less then reliable - tough call these days to KNOW you are getting a winner. Enough lemons from reputable companies has kind of soured the 1911 experience for me - for now anyway.

bakeryman
March 5, 2006, 05:28 PM
Don't carry my 1911 that often, but it's always condition #1 when carried, although I usually check the operation of both safeties first (better safe than sorry :D ).

hurrakane212
March 5, 2006, 05:33 PM
The only 1911 that won't do that is the Para LDA, but that is arguably not a 1911. Any other 1911 model, assuming it was built well and hasn't been boogered up by incompetent gunsmithing, will be quite happy in condition 1.

I personally hated the LDA and do not consider it a 1911. The GLOCK 19 I shot that day had a better trigger! The XD is a great gun with a 1911 style grip safey that makes it "safer" than a GLOCK but a lighter trigger than a DAO. It's sort of SAO (single action only). The LDA was the only gun where I had to repeatedly force the barrel forward over a round. Also I had to constanly tap the mag (all 3 of them, that all worked fine in a Kimber TLE). After shooting the LDA my wife looked at me and said "could we put this one back and shoot the Kimber again?"
I'm not a troll or anything, I was just very unsatisfied with the LDA. Sorry to hijack the thread~Nathan

shield20
March 5, 2006, 05:37 PM
No apologies required - that's good info on the Para - saw one that was real tight - looked like a nice build and got high praises from the dealer - always nice to hear real-world experience. Reminds me the reasons I went with the Walther and the HK.

Double Naught Spy
March 5, 2006, 07:15 PM
Actually, I don't think there is any documentation that 1911s were designed to be carried in Condition 1. They can be carried that way just fine, but the feature was not one specified by the military who many some 40 odd changes to Browning's submission (via Colt) for testing.

There is no documentation from Browning to state that the 1911 was designed to be carried in Condition 1...that I have been able to locate. If somebody has such documentation, I would like the reference.

Note that the military stipulated that the gun be carried in Condition 0, hammer down and no round in chamber...which is also a safe way to carry the gun, especially if you don't plan to shoot it.

shield20
March 5, 2006, 08:44 PM
Actually the Field Manual does state the 1911 should be carried condition 1 ..."In Campaign, When early use of the pistol is probable, It should be carried loaded and locked in the holster or hand."

And also
"If it is desired to make the pistol ready for instant use and for firing the maximum number of shots with the least possible delay, draw back the slide, insert a cartridge by hand into the chamber of the barrel, allow the slide to close, then lock the slide and the cocked hammer by pressing the safety lock upward and insert a loaded magazine"

Hawkmoon
March 8, 2006, 12:58 AM
I'm going to disagree with Hurrikane212. I have a Para 12.45 LDA and it is a fine weapon. Mine is about 5 years old, bought new right after Para came out with them, and after some initial break-in seems to be about 100% reliable.

I'll go along with conceding that, being a double-action only adaptation, it is not a true 1911 pistol but rather a "1911-like" pistol, but it's a lot more "1911-like_ than the Colt Double Eagle, and I see people calling those 1911s all the time. I don't consider the LDAs to be true 1911s, but putting that aside I think they are very fine handguns. The trigger on mine out of the box was 4-1/2 pounds, which is right about where I like my single action 1911s to be. Every review I have ever read for an LDA has pegged the trigger at 4-1/2 pounds ... I cannot imagine one having a worse trigger than a Glock.

Note that the military stipulated that the gun be carried in Condition 0, hammer down and no round in chamber...which is also a safe way to carry the gun, especially if you don't plan to shoot it.Hammer down on an empty chamber is Condition 3. Hammer down on an empty pistol with an unloaded magazine is Condition 4. Condition 0 is hammer back, round in the pipe, and thumb safety NOT engaged, i.e. ready to fire.

c_yeager
March 8, 2006, 02:54 AM
If you cant carry it "cocked and locked" then it is NOT a 1911. I know there are a thousand versions of this pistol, but a line has to be drawn somewhere and this is where I draw it.

Hawkmoon
March 8, 2006, 11:05 AM
If you look "under the hood," you'll find that the Para LDA is carried cocked and locked. Racking the slide cocks the mainspring, but the mechanism allows the hammer to be lowered while leaving the mainspring cocked. That's how they get a 4# trigger on a "DAO" pistol. The trigger only moves the hammer back, it doesn't cock the mainspring.

You might think of it as a sort of fully automated version of the Cylinder & Slide SYS System.

The Paras aren't true 1911s, but they aren't true double action only, either. But don't tell that to the "authorities" who insist on DOA pistols and nothing else.

treebeard
March 8, 2006, 11:39 AM
The LDA was the only gun where I had to repeatedly force the barrel forward over a round.
Which model were you shooting? I shot my 7.45 LDA today and I had absolutely no issues whatsoever. No FTF's or FTE's, and I did not have to force the barrel over a round? As far as Glocks go, I don't own one because they just don't feel right in my hand. I guess I am strange that way.:eek:

Mute
March 8, 2006, 12:52 PM
If it can't be carried condition 1 it's not really a 1911.

hurrakane212
March 8, 2006, 09:39 PM
The model was the 7.45 LDA. It is possible that it was just that model, however I believe that Coal Creek Armory takes good care of their rental guns. The trigger was "squishy" to me. I didn't say I liked the GLOCK trigger... because I didn't. I just liked it better than that particular LDA. I liked the XD trigger better than both and the SIG 228 and Kimber TLE triggers best that day.~Nathan

fiVe
March 14, 2006, 06:45 PM
On the flip side, is it unsafe to carry any and every true 1911 with the hammer down & a round in the chamber?

Technosavant
March 14, 2006, 07:23 PM
On the flip side, is it unsafe to carry any and every true 1911 with the hammer down & a round in the chamber?

No. A 1911 has an inertial firing pin, meaning it is shorter than the distance from the hammer (when dropped) to the primer of a chambered round. It uses its own inertia to overcome the firing pin spring and hit the primer hard enough to ignite.

There are, however, two good reasons for NOT carrying in condition two (the situation you describe):
1) Lowering the hammer on a live round isn't the safest thing to do. Let it slip and you have yourself a ND. Ditto when recocking it.
2) Thumbcocking a 1911 is awkward, especially if you have a beavertail safety and a commander-style or bobbed hammer. It's much harder than just switching off the safety. I wouldn't want to try to do this if the fecal matter ever hit the rotating air displacement device.

But once the hammer is lowered, that gun won't be firing until you cock it/

rtl
March 14, 2006, 08:28 PM
Check out the second paragraph:
http://www.kimberamerica.com/compact.php

StrikeEagle
March 14, 2006, 09:54 PM
"If it is desired to make the pistol ready for instant use and for firing the maximum number of shots with the least possible delay, draw back the slide, insert a cartridge by hand into the chamber of the barrel, allow the slide to close, then lock the slide and the cocked hammer by pressing the safety lock upward and insert a loaded magazine"


Whoa... can that be right? I've always thought that dropping a round in the chamber and letting the extractor clip over it was bad, bad, bad.

Yet the military advised such a procedure?

StrikeEagle

AndyK
March 16, 2006, 02:32 PM
Got my Ser. 80 Gold Cup in '88. About a year later, as I was cleaning and dry-firing the pistol, I noticed that when I drew the slide back, as if to chamber a round, all looked fine. I flicked the safety on, and pulled the trigger (to test the safety). Safety held...BUT, when I released the safety, the hammer fell!! Didn't fall all the way, but that just wasn't right.

Colt paid for the repair.

Moral--always check the safety before carrying in #1

PS--Aside from that, and the rear sight pin breaking, my Gold Cup has NEVER jammed, FTF, or had any other firing problems, from 185gr to 230gr.

Seraph
March 16, 2006, 02:41 PM
Whoa... can that be right? I've always thought that dropping a round in the chamber and letting the extractor clip over it was bad, bad, bad.

Yet the military advised such a procedure?
The extractors they had then were made of the proper spring steel, and probably could handle this treatment without getting bent out of shape, so to speak.

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