Delaware cop has an ND in a classroom demonstration


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Manedwolf
March 5, 2006, 01:00 PM
As to well-trained cops. Some NEED safeties because they apparently can't unholster without keeping their *@#! finger out of the trigger guard!

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March 3, 2006 - A Wilmington police officer has been placed on administrative leave while the department investigates why his gun went off during an after-school program Thrusday.
The officer was working overtime at the Stubbs School under the "Safe Havens" program when he tried to take his gun out of his holster.

The gun fired once, straight into the floor.

Several students were nearby, but no one was hurt.

Copyright 6 Action News, 2006. All Rights Reserved.

http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?section=local&id=3959456

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Cacique500
March 5, 2006, 01:03 PM
It just makes me wonder why these people can't clear their weapon before they bring it anywhere near students...certainly not the first time we've heard of a ND in a classroom (remember the DEA/undercover guy that shot his foot?).

It also sounds like he needs some serious training if he couldn't clear leather without firing a shot...

Lupinus
March 5, 2006, 01:08 PM
yeah cac we do....its in my sig :evil:

U.S.SFC_RET
March 5, 2006, 01:33 PM
Of all the LEOs who go to school grounds and educate students in a similar manner this guy is a very small percentage. Probably .00001. Again what we have 1 unfortunate incident that gets reported far and wide and no mention of all of the good of the other 99.99%. We don't know what type of firearm was used when it was pulled out of the holster, if the hammer was locked and cocked or the type of holster. We don't know the experience of the officer but it still equals out to bad press.:mad:

PlayboyPenguin
March 5, 2006, 01:42 PM
U.S.SFC_RET, you brought his experience level into question. When I went to the academy the newbies where always saddled with doing the school presentations. I had to do 2 high school presentations within my first week of graduation. :)

progunner1957
March 5, 2006, 02:08 PM
Sheriff Taylor had the right idea when he made Barney keep his bullet in his shirt pocket...:D :D

I saw a video clip of a LE officer who was lecturing in front of a jr. high class about guns - his opening commeents included, "Now I'm the only one in this room that is professional enough to carry a 40 caliber Glock..."

You guessed it - not two minutes later - BOOM!! - 40 caliber hole in his right thigh.:eek:

panzermk2
March 5, 2006, 02:13 PM
and SOME LEO's still can't understand why when they queston the safety of civilians having guns we give them such a look! :eek:

Curare
March 5, 2006, 02:15 PM
Where's the video? :D

YellowLab
March 5, 2006, 02:27 PM
Firearms training is nowhere near a priority for jobs that have a need for them.

When I was at the Corrections Officer Academy in PA, our firearms training was simple.

"Who has ever fired a gun?" "Ok, you guys go over there". We got QUICK and MINIMAL training.

"Who has NEVER fired a gun?" "Ok, you guys over there". They got wat I consider to be MINIMAL training. A few dry fires and done. The learned what was in the cirriculum and that was it. Two hours tops.

Within the day ALL of us were at a range. It was qualify or stay until you do. Or come back the next day and do it again.

Granted most CO's will not have a gun day to day, but you could do an armed escort and lives may depend on your ability to simply hold the gun correctly.

Even in the NAVY, Nuclear Weapons Security Guard training.... qualify with the M14, the .45 and the shotgun. DONE. I shot maybe 50 rounds a year yet was supposed to be able to handle a firearm guarding nuke's.

Even police officers... what kind of training budget (even for ammo) does local PD in Ashland PA have? Does NONE sound a little low?

countertop
March 5, 2006, 02:50 PM
(remember the DEA/undercover guy that shot his foot?).
Was channel surfing last night as I waited for the fireplace to die down. Around 1:30 EST this morning VH1 was showing a Cops Greatest Bloopers type of show and made a big deal about that one. Kept repeating it over and over, and the announcer made some statement about the fact that this cop is the only person they (being the police) think should handle a gun.

If I didn't see it for my self, I would have sworn it was on NRA TV and not VH1

Zundfolge
March 5, 2006, 03:09 PM
the biggest problem with these incidents (and the main reason the MSM makes sure we see them) is that antis can use them against us very effectivly.

"See, guns can easily get away from our highly trained professional police officers, so obviously they are too dangerous for you untrained serfs."

I guarantee that is the story line they are pushing.

Zen21Tao
March 5, 2006, 03:37 PM
This wide spread epidemic of NDs proves that we need to remove guns from the hands of LEOs...... for the children. :neener:

Zen21Tao
March 5, 2006, 04:01 PM
Again what we have 1 unfortunate incident that gets reported far and wide and no mention of all of the good of the other 99.99%.

It is the fact that something is rare that makes it news worthy. As such the media will report every rare occurance of some type of incident and not report on the far more common absences of these incidents. The problem with this is that heuristically people tend to equate things seen on the news or even in print media as being far more common than they are. One reason for this is that the more vivid something appears the easier it is to recall. The Gun control folks rely on this phenomenon by telling the most vivid story they can of an isolated incident so that the ease of recall can be used to equate it to what they have seen in the media. This is why people believe gun grabbers when they cry "epidemic."

12-34hom
March 5, 2006, 04:12 PM
You can lead a horse to water.....

12-34hom.

MrTwigg
March 5, 2006, 04:22 PM
To keep this post on topic I'll ask; Isn't trigger disicipline taught anymore ?
Seems like it's "Here's your gun, there you go." thesedays. :banghead:

Even in the NAVY, Nuclear Weapons Security Guard training.... qualify with the M14, the .45 and the shotgun. DONE. I shot maybe 50 rounds a year yet was supposed to be able to handle a firearm guarding nuke's.

When were you in the Navy ? I was in the Seabees back in the mid 70's and we really got to shoot. My first year in my battalion I must have shot well over a thousand rounds through an M-16A1 (Qualified sharpshooter the first year, expert every year thereafter), the next year my company got the crewserved weapons and I was assigned the position of gunner on a 106 recoilless rifle (Qualified expert there also.) Had to qualify with a Colt 1911A .45 government model and just barely made it. Handguns were not my strong point. Got some cross training on the Rem870 riot gun, M-60 and M-79 blooper too. We had a U.S.M.C. Master Gunnery Sergeant as our “Tactical Advisor” and he ran us ragged. We’d spend most of our time stateside at the small arms range at Point Mugu or out at Ft. Irwin on Tactical maneuvers.

rudolf
March 5, 2006, 05:43 PM
I just wonder if after every time a police car is crashed you would ask for every cop to get driving training. Guns shouldn't be treated other than cars.

And BTW, what is a better way do domonstate the need for gun safety :evil:

Tory
March 5, 2006, 06:14 PM
"I just wonder if after every time a police car is crashed you would ask for every cop to get driving training. Guns shouldn't be treated other than [sic] cars."

If a cop is too incompetent to park, he/she shouldn't be allowed to drive. Civilians aren't why should the cop skate?

"Guns shouldn't be treated other than [sic] cars."

If a cop is too incompetent to draw/holster his/her sidearm, he/she should not be issued one. And there is no lobby declaring that only cops should have cars. Learn syntax and grasp the distinction. :scrutiny:

Standing Wolf
March 5, 2006, 06:27 PM
I'll bet he won't do that again very soon.

El Tejon
March 6, 2006, 07:52 AM
Stories like this just warm my heart.:evil:

We need to compile a list of LEOs shooting each other or themselves or children in schools. Whenever we hear the anti-civil rights lobby talking about "highly trained police officers" we can mail it out to the media.:D

Double Naught Spy
March 6, 2006, 09:02 AM
You know, sometimes they are doing the best they can with what they got, and sometimes that just is not enough.

At least based on a few cases in recent years, the LEOs with these NDs during safety instruction aren't gun instructors, so why they are teaching gun safety is beyond me. Of course, we would think that all cops or folks trained to carry guns would be able to handle a simple gun safety talk, but that apparently is not the case.

TexasRifleman
March 6, 2006, 09:03 AM
We need to compile a list of LEOs shooting each other or themselves or children in schools. Whenever we hear the anti-civil rights lobby talking about "highly trained police officers" we can mail it out to the media.

So that they can use it against us?

"My goodness the highly trained professional has an occasional ND, these guns are so dangerous. Imagine what would happen if you let anyone that wanted one carry the things."

We don't want them digging up the same statistic for non LEO's do we? I have news for you, non LEO's have ND's too. We read about them on here from time to time. Humbling stories usually to be sure, but they happen

It's a bad deal for ANYONE, and there is no positive spin you can put on something like this.

Master Blaster
March 6, 2006, 09:28 AM
:barf: Ah the mainstream media, I love how they are investigating why the gun went off, the officer knows why and so does his boss, and they admitted why when this appeared in the local paper a day before the STORY hit the TV news media. Now is the problem that the folks at channel 6 cant read, or is this some attempt to make it look like the gun did it?????:barf:

from the local paper:

Officer accidentally fires gun at kids' recreational program
By ALISON KEPNER
The News Journal

03/03/2006
A Wilmington police officer accidentally discharged his handgun Thursday while working at a recreational program for children.

No one was injured, and the officer, a 15-year veteran of the force, was placed on administrative duty pending an internal investigation, Master Sgt. William F. Wells said in a press release.

Wells did not return phone messages seeking further comment late Thursday.

Advertisement




The officer, whose name was not released, was working a volunteer overtime assignment at Stubbs School, at the corner of 11th and Pine streets, as part of the "Safe Havens" program, which offers children recreational activities during the winter.

According to the police report, the officer was attempting to remove the magazine clip from his department-issued Smith & Wesson .40-caliber semiautomatic handgun when he instead hit the trigger. One round fired into the floor of the school just outside the gymnasium. The gun, which was holstered, was pointed down.

Eight children, ages 6 to 14, were within several feet of the officer when the gun discharged. Police contacted a representative from the Child Development Community Policing Program, which offers services to youths who experience stressful events.

Contact Alison Kepner at 324-2965 or akepner@delawareonline.com.

They were haveing a show and tell, the officer was showing his batton, pepper spray, cuffs etc and the kids wanted to see his gun.

carlrodd
March 6, 2006, 09:31 AM
Firearms training is nowhere near a priority for jobs that have a need for them.

+1 i was a scout in the army, and even in our unit, unless you really wanted to and were friendly with the guys that did the range lists in other troops, you would end up shooting maybe twice a year, maybe. there's so much administrative BS that goes into that sort of thing, it's just impossible to conduct ranges with great frequency. i imagine it's the same for any organisation that uses firearms. i was just thinking about this the other day....i have been out for 8 months and have already been to the range more than i had throughout my four years in the army.

roo_ster
March 6, 2006, 09:56 AM
I can see the black humor in such a story as well as the catcalls from those of us not "professional enough to handle the Glock foh-ty," in the eyes of the Rasta DEA. Those cops who work to limit the RKBA by the citizenry deserve every scintilla of derision when they have a ND. Regular Joe cops ought to be given the same slack and/or ribbing that non-cops get.

Lets face it: most street cops have greater opportunity for eff-ups. Spending six hours/day on city strees looking for trouble and responding at speed (when called to do so) exposes the driver to more opportunities to smash up his vehicle. Same goes for gunhandling*.

That greater opportunity for stepping on their generative member really ought to spur LEO leadership to spend more $$$ on driving & firearms training.


* I CCW every day & have yet to have a ND. I hope I never will and practice safe gunhandling regularly so that "hope" is not the only thing between me & a ND.

I have had an AD, which I would define as "a mechanical failure of the firearm leading to a discharge." Upshot: sear finally wore out on a M60 and I had to ride the belt to its end. Fairly common with beltfeds, especially old beltfeds used in training.

YellowLab
March 6, 2006, 11:28 AM
Accidents do happen. Thats just a fact of life.

BUT

The people that carry guns 8+ hours a day SHOULD NOT BE THE ONES HAVING THE ACCIDENTS.

Think of it... a MARINE, the worlds greatest killing implement ever devised handles a weapon far less frequently than LE (unless in theatre).. yet the LE will tell US how dangerous weapons can be.

Go to your local courthouse... look at the police budget for training. See what is spend on FIREARMS. More $$$ is probibly spent on 'sensitivity training' than weapons handling.

Maxwell
March 6, 2006, 12:17 PM
You can pickup a weapon and have an nd on the first day if your careless enough. You can also go an entire lifetime armed without a single accident.
Its not how long you carry a gun or how much training they force you to attend.
Its how much respect you have for them (and I would also add that in some cases, its the design of the gun).
Im not exactly a fan of glocks safety system.
Ive also not heard of many accidents with revolvers or some of the higher quality sa-da semiautos.

Simple logic:
If your going to show off a weapon in a classroom or pass it around, for crying out loud just take a few moments to unload the damn thing properly.

Zen21Tao
March 7, 2006, 02:29 AM
I think that gun grabbers like to look at LEOs with the impresssion that they are the cream of the crop when it comes to firearms expertise. Then when one of their "trained professionals" have a neglagent discharge they like to stress their idea that if it happens to "hight trained" LEOs it must be far too dangerous to let the "average" citizen have a firearm. However, from what I have seen, alot of "average" gun owners speed far more time at the range training and are far more respectful of gun safety. Many LEOs think that because they have a gun on their side everyday they are experts at firarm safety and thus take safety for granted.

SSN Vet
March 7, 2006, 09:01 AM
YellowLab has it right.....

The amount of fire arms training on board my SSN was a PATHETIC 50 rounds per year.

The drill for clearing a stovepipe.....raise your right hand, so the Torpedoman Chief can come and clear it for you.

Picture that when Mohamed Jihadist comes along side a moored SSN or SSBN in his small boat with his AK blazing.....and the topside sentry draws his 45 year old .45 ..... stovepipes the second round .... and raises his right hand!

The only way I could be SURE that someone in my duty section could shoot straight was to buy my own .45 and drop several hundred dollars at an indoor range in Charleston (at night, on my own time of course). But I considered it a good investment, and slept better for it.

Whether or not your employer provides adequate training.....PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY CANNOT BE SHIRKED!!! If you carry, YOUR RESPONSIBLE for your own proficiency!!

jerkface11
March 7, 2006, 09:15 AM
I guess this is why only highly trained LEO's are allowed to carry guns at school. No one else is proffesional enough.

Mizzle187
March 7, 2006, 09:58 AM
What no video? its cool once youve seen Rastaman Super ATF agent shot himself youve seen them all! IMO when these talk/demonstations go one with LEO's they should have to check any weapon they will be unholstering at the schools office to show they are unloaded.

ball3006
March 7, 2006, 10:41 AM
firearms trained. I used to be one, and the Chief of the dept for 3 years. I received zero funds for any kind of training. I tried training with the sheriff
's dept but the gun handling was so unsafe, I quit after the second session. The students at the academy, with the exception of me, couldn't hit the broad side of a barn and were passed anyway. The gun club I belong to used to rent the facility to the local police depts for firearms training but quit because the cops shot too many holes in the roof, benches, baffles and supports..........chris3

Model520Fan
March 7, 2006, 11:38 AM
When were you in the Navy ? I was in the Seabees back in the mid 70's and we really got to shoot.

Well, you were in the Seabees in the mid-70's. I wasn't, but I was in for over 25 years, from the early sixties to the late 80's. With the exception of courier qualification (thirty rounds with an M&P) several years after I made LDO, I was never required by the Navy to fire a weapon. I had to search and fight for every chance to use military ammo and, when I was really lucky (?), military weapons. I did, as an E-6, get together with a pro-gun lady personnel officer and set up a program of qualifying every E-4 in the command ONCE with the .45 that they had paperwork saying they already knew how to use. I think that even SSN's experience was above average for the Navy.

Not complaining about the Navy - they don't use guns that much. And I have no complaint at all about some of my firearms-related experience with them. But it was not the norm, and it was pretty much for people who wanted very much to do it, not a requirement for everyone..

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