I have a problem. (Big surprise)


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V4Vendetta
March 6, 2006, 11:36 AM
A lot of my friends aren't gun people. They are so ignorant in the world of guns that they don't know the difference between a .45 or a 9mm:( . I remember once after church we were talking about seeing the bears at the zoo. One of them mentioned that if he were hiking in the woods & knew that the bears would be in the area he would carry a AK-47.:banghead: Isn't the AK meant for us 200 pound bad guys not the 980 pound grizzly? How can I go about converting them without losing their friendship. I pity them knowing that they would be slaughtered if they actually ran into a bear*. They also aren't big on shooting as a whole.


*Not likely in this area but better to error on the side of caution I feel.

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BozemanMT
March 6, 2006, 11:41 AM
Take one of them to the range.
he'll get hooked (just like the rest of us) and he'll help convince your other friends.
works every time.:cool:

Justin
March 6, 2006, 11:44 AM
Agreed, the best way is to invite your friends over, go over the basics of safe gun handling, and then go to the range.

You're friends don't sound like they're out-and-out antigun, just ignorant.

3rdpig
March 6, 2006, 11:44 AM
If you can't take them to the range and convert them, then go to the range without them and make new friends while you're there.

Should the SHTF, your new friends will be much more comforting to have near you then the old ones that couldn't find the safety lever with a map and both hands.

AirForceShooter
March 6, 2006, 12:04 PM
you can try to get them to the range and open their eyes or just pity them.

AFS

V4Vendetta
March 6, 2006, 12:08 PM
"You're friends don't sound like they're out-and-out antigun, just ignorant."

That's what I think. They don't subscribe to the NRA or the Brady bunch. They are what you might call "Neutral Observers". They don't get involved in politics or wars. I don't either. I just like plinking & such. I'm just trying to think of a way to invite them over to shoot without offending them & making them think of me as a nut-job.

torpid
March 6, 2006, 12:09 PM
Agreed with going over safe gun handling, and once that's okay then on to the range.

(Besides, bear caliber wars are best left to endless THR threads...)
;)

Hypnogator
March 6, 2006, 12:11 PM
What everyone else said, take them to the range and discuss the capabilities of different types of weapons. It's especially fun if you're shooting the weapons you're talking about. :D :D :D

they would be slaughtered if they actually ran into a bear

Jeez, in the immortal words of Sgt Hulka, "Lighten up, Francis!" I can think of a whole lot of guns I'd be worse off against a grizzly with than an AK-47. 'Taint ideal, but it's a whole lot better than a single-shot .22! :eek:

geekWithA.45
March 6, 2006, 12:11 PM
Don't get overeager/evangelical on them, or bring up guns at _every_ single flimsy opportunity, so they don't experience burnout and tune you out. Save the coins for the opportunities that count.

Just be present, available, consistent and sane.

V4Vendetta
March 6, 2006, 12:15 PM
Geekwitha.45, that is one of the most sane comments I've ever heard. Good job.3 happy faces to ya.:) :) :)

U.S.SFC_RET
March 6, 2006, 02:15 PM
Fellas if I had an AK 47 and if that gun is as dependable as they say they are and I had a 30 round clip. Penetration is pretty damn good with one of these. I will take on a bear with an AK 47 because they penetrate pretty damn well, plus the 30 rounds even though it's not considered a bear rifle. Consider a typical 30.06 with a 5 round magazine,would you take your chances with that? 300 winchester mag with the same type of magazine? If it was self defence I think I would use the AK and the 30 rounds, it may not have the same penetration as the heavier calibers but you got 30 rounds.

Thefabulousfink
March 6, 2006, 03:01 PM
Do you shoot trap or skeet? That is a very fun and PC way to introduce people to guns. For people who might be a little nervous around guns, a shotgun is a lot friendlier than an AR-15, heck if John Kerry uses one it can't be that evil:rolleyes: .

If shotgun sports aren't your thing, then choose guns that are fun to shoot while not intimidating. .22's are great for teaching fundemetals, but not neccessary for introducing some to firearms. Get a lever-action, a revolver, or a mid-caliber auto and just let them blast away at some popcans or metal spinners. You know your friends better than I do, but people who see an AR as an assualt rifle might see a lever-action or SAA as neat "cowboy guns"

And of course, allways stress safety.:)

Car Knocker
March 6, 2006, 03:01 PM
Isn't the AK meant for us 200 pound bad guys not the 980 pound grizzly?

I believe that in Africa, the AK-47 is often used by poachers to bring down elephants, rhinos and other very large game.

pauli
March 6, 2006, 03:07 PM
it's not always necessary to proselytize. different people make for different friends, and sometimes not sharing interests is simply that. discretion is often the better part of valor...

c_yeager
March 6, 2006, 03:09 PM
The AK-47 isnt really all that bad of a choice for defense against bears.

Wasnt the largest bear shot in north America killed with a 30-30? (maybe it was just the lower 48).

benEzra
March 6, 2006, 03:13 PM
One of them mentioned that if he were hiking in the woods & knew that the bears would be in the area he would carry a AK-47. Isn't the AK meant for us 200 pound bad guys not the 980 pound grizzly?
Depends on the size of the bears in your area. A civilian AK lookalike is about 1/2 as powerful as a .30-06 deer rifle and probably 1/3 as powerful as anything *I'd* want to have in my hands in grizzly country. It's the least powerful of all common .30 caliber rifles, even less powerful than a .30-30. For black bears, it might be OK (certainly beats most handguns), but in grizzly country I'd want something of more substantial caliber.

Yes, the 30 round magazine is great, but if you only have time for five shots before the bear in question reaches you, they'd better matter. Civilian AK lookalikes don't fire any faster than a self-loading hunting rifle; they're not machine guns.

A real NFA Title 2/Class III AK-47 would be better than a civilian AK lookalike due to the ability to fire in bursts, but for the $15,000 you'd spend on a real AK, you could buy better bear guns.

I believe that in Africa, the AK-47 is often used by poachers to bring down elephants, rhinos and other very large game.
Mostly by wounding them and letting them die a slow death, I would imagine. All the poachers want is the ivory; they can go around and shoot several elephants from a vehicle or whatever (only way *I'd* shoot at an elephant with a low-powered rifle) and then come back and collect the ivory after the animals have collapsed. Quite a different scenario from trying to stop a charging bull elephant with a frontal shot.

I have read that elephants have also been poached with .22LR's, but I wouldn't trust a .22 to stop an angry one.

M2 Carbine
March 6, 2006, 03:14 PM
Like as has already been said, offer to take them shooting.
Chances are they will thank you for opening an interesting new world.:)




Then they will kick you for getting them into this expensive hobby.:D

bogie
March 6, 2006, 03:26 PM
Many "non-gun" folks think that the "AK-47" is the biggest baddest thing out there, and hence would use it on griz... And they'd also assume that it wouldn't leave a trace of Bambi... It's up to us to _gently_ teach them.

eastwood44mag
March 6, 2006, 05:46 PM
Go to a butcher shop, get 4 shoulder bones out of a really big hog. Set them up in a row, and show your buddies what happens when you try to penetrate with a 7.62x39mm round. Repeat demonstration with a .300 magnum.

AJ Dual
March 6, 2006, 06:15 PM
Your friends are obviously "emoting" about guns. It's a trait we associate with anti gunners, who emote that "guns are bad" and think nothing beyond that meme. However, there are lots of ill-informed pro-gun, or gun-neutral individuals who's entire worldview of guns is based solely on what they see in the media or video games. Because of it's association with communism, third-world pestholes, and terrorism, the AK-47 has a very recognizable form, and "looks bad", therefore it must be "bad".

They have no concept of the history of the assault rifle, or the entire design philosophy behind intermediate power cartridges that are intended to increase capacity while decreasing weight, by being ballisticaly matched to the needs of the WWII statistical average of the 100 meter infantry engagement...

I grew up in a non-gun household, and I can clearly remember when I was a child, and judged firearms solely on appearance. I had almost no notion of ballistics, accuracy/consistency, caliber, rate of fire, or magazine capacity. When you've only seen a library in pictures, all you can do is judge books by their covers.

"Way back" in the 1980's… LOL… My family and friends would vacation each summer at a lake in north-central Wisconsin. The small town nearby had a gas station/sporting goods/convenience store that was chock full of things to delight young boys. Everything from bubble gum, beef jerky, comic books, MAD Magazines, fireworks, pocket knives, slingshots & ammo, air guns, firearms, fishing tackle, and archery gear.

Needless to say, my buddies and I loved the place. To us, it was even holier ground than the all-girls summer camp next door to our rental cabins on the lake.

Up high on pegs, on display around the entire store, was their stock of consignment rifles.

On one wall was a rifle that held our attention like no other. We knew it just had to be the best rifle in the store, and we lusted after it like nothing else. It was the most powerful, black, evil, and beautiful firearm we'd ever seen. I still remember what it looked like to this day. Because the image of it is still burned into my mind with my then 10 year-old eyes, I now know exactly what that rifle was...

It was a tacti-cool Ruger 10/22 in a plastic Ram-Line folding stock, a semi-transparent smoke grey Butler Creek 25 round magazine, mounting a cheap Tasco scope, and a no-name bipod.

But to us, it looked like something out of James Bond.

1911JMB
March 6, 2006, 06:39 PM
IF you can get your friends into guns, thats fine, but some people just don't care. Many people couldn't understand if you don't like knitting, but that doesn't change the fact you probably don't and probably never will. All you really have to do is politely ask if they want to go to a range, and if they do cool. If they have fun and get into guns, even better. I have pulled that one off a few times. If not, you guys are already friends and therefor obviously already have other shared interests. As far as I'm concerned, any friend is a good friend. I even get along with a few anti's.

bogie
March 6, 2006, 06:40 PM
Just remember that the average "non-gun" person KNOWS that a Glock 9mm is more powerful than a "cowboy" .45, plus it goes right through metal detectors! They saw it on TV!

Heck - most of 'em would rather shoot a .416 Rigby instead of a "big" 7mm _Magnum_...

aaronrkelly
March 6, 2006, 08:38 PM
Ehh, Ive never understood why every gunnie is always trying to "convert" people. As long as they dont preach, I dont either......I have enough people to talk to I dont need to search them out.

ABTOMAT
March 6, 2006, 09:27 PM
I don't think we should run around evangelizing, but if you find people who might be easily turned around (who love to shoot and just don't know it) it can't hurt to try and get them interested. Might do them some good.

Skeet shooting's a good idea. I even know some antis who were taken skeet shooting by coworkers and they loved it, although it didn't do anything to improve their views. I'd probably avoid exposing them to anything too "extreme" for their first few trips. Tactical shooting competitions, .50 target shooting, Knob Creek etc. might be a bit overpowering.

Hey Bogie, you're forgetting--that Glock 9mm (or maybe 9 caliber) is even more powerful if you hold it sideways. The movies wouldn't lie, would they? :)

Oh yeah, the bear thing. Wasn't there a (short-lived, for obvious reasons) past movement towards sub-.30 cal bear hunting? I remember reading about that a while back.

Kurt_M
March 7, 2006, 10:03 AM
Let them shoot a .22 a few times and see how much they like it. They may not be gunnies in the rough, but at least it will give them a positive perspective on the sport.

whm1974
March 7, 2006, 05:58 PM
Many "non-gun" folks think that the "AK-47" is the biggest baddest thing out there, and hence would use it on griz... And they'd also assume that it wouldn't leave a trace of Bambi... It's up to us to _gently_ teach them.

Funny enough I run into people who think that the AK47 is the most "powerful" rifle around all the time for some reason. AND I live in an area where AK47s and SKSs are somewhat common.

-Bill

skunkum
March 7, 2006, 07:25 PM
I would suppose that it would be HIGHLY unlikely for your friends to run into a grizzly in the NC area, but maybe they are being stocked and I never heard about it. I just wouldn't have guessed that NC is appropriate grizzly bear habitat.

If there are no grizzlies there, the infrequent bear in the woods must be a black bear, and although there are some big bears in the woods there are probably more of them in the 250-350 pound range. Not all that much bigger than a 200 lb human, so I think an AK would be "enough gun". I personally would feel better protected with a nice full load of 12 gauge slugs.

Funny, but I would have considered North Carolina to be a Southern state, where children are brought up to use and respect guns. Whoops! I must be dreaming of 50 years ago!

V4Vendetta
March 7, 2006, 07:35 PM
"Funny, but I would have considered North Carolina to be a Southern state, where children are brought up to use and respect guns. Whoops! I must be dreaming of 50 years ago!"


My friends are originally from New York. :rolleyes:

akodo
March 7, 2006, 11:44 PM
the 7.62x39 is ballistically very similar to the 30-30, they are in fact nearly identical, as I am sure most of you know. As I see it, the problem is most AK bullets aren't the heavy weight good animal penetrators that the 30-30 cartridges are topped with. Also, while I sure as hell rather face a black bear with a 30-06 and a griz with a 338 winmag, there have been plenty of bears popped with 30-30s, 32 specials, 38-55s, etc etc. I'd sure rather have an AK clone than carry a 44 magnum handgun if I was in bear company. Scratch that, I'd rather have BOTH, but still...

U.S.SFC_RET
March 8, 2006, 05:36 PM
Question#1 How many rounds fit into a 300 winchester magnum?
Question#2 How many rounds can you fit into an AK47?

Question#3 How many rounds can you dump into Mr. Grizzly?
Question#4 What if you miss the first few shots supposin he really surprizes you?

For hunting a grizzly give me a 300 Win Mag with a 4 round clip.
For the Grizzly bear's element of surprize give me the AK with 30 rounds.
A semiouto AK might not meet my definition of an assault weapon but I will assault the snot outta that bear.

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