I met with the president of the San Diego NAACP a few weeks ago.


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DigitalWarrior
March 6, 2006, 11:56 AM
I was in a forum where the president of the San Diego NAACP was invited to speak, and I ended up asking a few questions y'all might be interested in the answers to.

I wasn't even going to walk in, because I have strong feelings on some of their actions, and I did not want to be disrespectful. However, the man who coordinated it invited me to go inside and talk about my concerns.

The PoSDNAACP got up and started talking about some of the things they are involved in. He talked about after school programs (good). He talked about maintaining education in the trades, rather than trying to put everyone on a college prep track (really good). He talked about fighting racial profiling (good). And he talked about affirmative action stuff (not good, but not a deal breaker). He talked about how everyone should be a member.

He then asked if there were any questions. I stood up first to speak, and asked "I understand that the NAACP is involved with several lawsuits against gun manufacturers related to the unfair marketing practices of guns in urban disadvantaged communities because people of color are disproportionally affected by gun-violence."(I can speak good duck-speak when I need to), I continued, "Why is it the policy of the NAACP that the poor and people of color should not be entitled to a means of self-defense?"

His response was that they were not against the poor being able to defend themselves, but in poor communities there are gun stores on every corner, and that the availability of guns is hurting the community, leading to all kinds of bad stuff.

I responded that one of my favorite paintings was harriet tubman conducting slaves through a swamp, and in her hands, she held a rifle, which she was nto permitted to do. I mentioned that one of the reasons for jim crow was to make sure that black men could not arm themselves. I mentioned that I thought that only good men obey laws, and the more good men who have guns, the better off everyone would be.

I said to him "And if it were not for that position of the NAACP, I would already be a member." and took my seat.

He ended that conversation by saying guns are used to destroy, and that reasonable men can disagree on small things, but agree on the larger issues. What he did not understand was, to me, this is the LARGEST issue.

But now for the question: I am still thinking about joining, and attempting to change the attitude of the organization from the inside. I just worry about giving material support to the enemy. What do you think?

Will

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MICHAEL T
March 6, 2006, 12:01 PM
I belive you would be but on little voice crying out and no one listing.

SRFL
March 6, 2006, 12:10 PM
...I'm originally from Harlem (NYC)....I recall that at it's worst during the 70's and 80's, I never...ever....saw a gun shop on any street corner.

DocHarman
March 6, 2006, 12:10 PM
I believe the NAACP has a valid point, but they are going about solving the problem incorrectly.

We can all agree that too many people are murdered with guns. To me, if even one person dies due to a firearm (self-defense excluded), then that is reason for action.

BUT, restricting access is not the solution. There are other options that are more difficult to enact, compared to the easy solution of "restriction."

And as far as DigitalWarrior not joining the NAACP due to that ONE issue... well how does that sound? I belong to a ton of organizations, including the NAACP-- even though I disagree with their firearm issues. I believe it is my job to change their stance, while still supporting their other issues.

PlayboyPenguin
March 6, 2006, 12:11 PM
I say that this is a choice you have to make for yourself. I do not agree with alot the NAACP does in this country myself but I do feel they have the right goal in mind; just not the right methods. I feel that they have lost sight of the fact that in today's world color is not as big a factor as it used to be not matter what they think. I think the largest contributing factor that makes you more likely to die violently, not get a proper education, be involved in illegal activity, and generally be discriminated against is wealth and not color. America has moved to being a country of haves and have nots and the haves are working harder than even to keep the have nots under their heel. As far as them being the "enemy", I just do not see that as true. I feel the pro-gun movements worst enemy (and I know I will get flamed for this which just fuels my point) is itself. The days of statements like "from my cold dead hands" are past and too many people hold onto this mentality. I feel that very statement did more to hurt the NRA than anything in history (and judging from the amount of damage control they had to do afterwards I think they would agree). It is a stance that reeks of "let me have my way or else!" and all it does is reinforce the violent image that alot of people associate with firearm owners. It is akin to the gay rights pig headed stance on the term marriage instead of accepting equal protection under civil unions. When you become too militant you sometimes just rally your enemies and harm yourself.

TexasRifleman
March 6, 2006, 12:13 PM
I just worry about giving material support to the enemy.

I believe your thoughts there are correct. It's unfortunate.

I have used a similar argument about gun laws being racist in that the so called "Saturday Night Special" laws, getting rid of very low cost handguns, are racist because some of the folks that need protection the most cannot afford a high end firearm (and since they are not criminals they won't buy one off the street)

Those arguments fall on deaf ears.

In your case you are right. If the organization considers the ability of it's members to defend themselves a "smaller issue" then your money and time would be better spent elsewhere.

Gordon Fink
March 6, 2006, 12:13 PM
His response was that they were not against the poor being able to defend themselves, but in poor communities there are gun stores on every corner, and that the availability of guns is hurting the community, leading to all kinds of bad stuff.

You should have called his bluff on this one.

~G. Fink

Stickjockey
March 6, 2006, 12:18 PM
Unfortunately, I have to agree with Michael T.

1 old 0311
March 6, 2006, 12:27 PM
Putting the blame on guns is easier than admiting that the root of the problem is the lack of family supervision, and community support. If guns are banned will that stop gangs? Crime? Drugs? Violence? School drop outs? :confused:

Kevin

progunner1957
March 6, 2006, 12:33 PM
IMO, some people and some institutions are too far gone to ever see the light in regards to the gun issue. I have a few friends that are like that - we can get along as long as we don't talk about gun issues, so we talk about things that we can agree on.

I think that joining the NAACP and working within it to try to change hearts and minds would be a waste of your time. Organizations such as this, that have socialism as their core belief system will not change. Gun banning is one of the holy grail tenets of the socialist political philosophy, and it is not something they are willing to give up.

Look at the Democratic party as an example - there can be no denying that their core belief system is socialism. Their insistence in pushing gun control has cost them dearly on election day in recent years, yet they refuse to let go of their pathalogical obsession with stripping We The People of our right to arms. I would fully expect the NAACP to be as myopic regarding gun control as the Democratic party.

I have come to believe that the only thing that will change the mind of a dyed-in-the-wool antigun bigot is a "Come to Jesus" experience, such as a mugging, robbery, rape, car jacking or other violent criminal attack that they are helpless to repel because they are unarmed, or such an attack where an armed citizen comes to their rescue.

Such a traumatic event will open the eyes of an antigun bigot - I have read of several instances where this has happened, converting the antigun victim into a gun carrying citizen who will not be victimized again. The sad thing is, sometimes even a "Come to Jesus" encounter will not change the mind of a gun hater. There is none so blind as those who will not see.

Personally, I have given up on trying to convert the hardened antigun bigot and have concentrated my efforts on winning over those who are fence-sitters regarding gun issues. They at least still have somewhat of an open mind - which is something the gun haters do not have. I also work for the gun cause by writing to elected officials, and contributing money to active progun organizations, such as the NRA, JPFO and GOA. These organizations are taking the battle to the halls of Congress and to the courts on our behalf, and they need and deserve our financial support.

IMHO, joining the NAACP or another organization that is steeped in antigun bigotry is a no-go. Giving them one dollar of support or one hour of work is called "Sleeping with the enemy." It is like telling your wife, "But honey, I only cheated a little bit..."

We who believe in and fight for our gun rights must not aid the enemy of our rights, even in small ways - those little things inevitably add up to major contributions to the enemies of our cause.

Zundfolge
March 6, 2006, 12:39 PM
I belive you would be but on little voice crying out and no one listing.
I disagree ... better a lone voice crying out than no voice (of course its easy for me to ask DigitalWarrior to enter the lions den).

Generally arguing with antis does nothing to change their minds, but the fence sitters watching the argument can be reached.

Completely giving up on the NAACP is understandable, but if a few little voices cry out for the self defense rights of blacks, more may join in.

bdutton
March 6, 2006, 12:44 PM
I would not join. The NAACP will take your money and use it to further their anti-gun agenda.

HankB
March 6, 2006, 12:47 PM
IMHO, joining the NAACP or another organization that is steeped in antigun bigotry is a no-goUhh . . . from the very name of the organization, it's not just antigun bigotry they're steeped in. In their own way, groups like the NAACP are just as odious, just as exclusionary, just as disgustingly racist as the Klan or any skinhead group. But they're tolerated because of media & poltical dual standards. :barf: (If you doubt this, just think how a group called "NAAWP" would fare on the public stage. Especially if their "affirmative action" platform were to include, say, professonal sports such as the NBA.) . . . argument about gun laws being racist in that the so called "Saturday Night Special" laws, getting rid of very low cost handguns, are racist . . . Considering that the original full name of "Saturday Night Special" was "N*ggertown Saturday Night Special" I'm surprised the racist origin of the term doesn't get more attention.

cordex
March 6, 2006, 12:50 PM
The national Republican party will develop libertarian tendencies before you change the stance of the NAACP on guns one iota.

And I really, really don't see the Republican party being interested in any libertarian positions any time soon.

As for this ...
America has moved to being a country of haves and have nots and the haves are working harder than even to keep the have nots under their heel.
Yeah! Sing it brother!
В победе бессмертных идей коммунизма
Мы видим грядущее нашей страны,
И Красному знамени славной Отчизны
Мы будем всегда беззаветно верны!

It's not the "haves" keeping the "have nots" down ... it's the "have nots" who want to vote themselves bread and circuses paid for with cash from the pockets of those who are working for what they have.

Maxwell
March 6, 2006, 12:54 PM
Its not the number of gun shops. You have to pass a background check to shop there, so 1 store in another state or 100 stores on your corner wont change a damn thing about the level of violence.

I think it would be blatently ignorant of history to then say modern black men can no longer be trusted to defend themselves. If this is how the NAACP feels, I couldnt support them no matter what else they promise.

Its like a banker who screws up on a simple math problem but offers you a "nice" deal for a car loan... Exactly where the hell is this arrangement going?

If they cant manage the basics, discussing other matters is most likely pointless. Any other view they have is also likely to be dangerously wrong.

PlayboyPenguin
March 6, 2006, 12:57 PM
Cordex, you vast knowledge of economics is overwhelming.

U.S.SFC_RET
March 6, 2006, 12:59 PM
I will always applaud people like yourself for speaking up and letting your opinion be heard. Work at the grass roots level. Black folks are tired of the voilence, they are tired of being sold on the crap from the NAACP on their antigun issues. Find a following and the will come. I grew up in the country in Georgia and never heard of black on black crime until I left home as a grown man. Let it be known that it is not the guns that are not doing this, it is the people. There is no shame in getting the word out. I applaud Bill Cosby in shaking the youth by the throat so to speak, in truying to place values were they belong.

ceetee
March 6, 2006, 01:10 PM
Nothing wrong with starting a lobbyist group for gun enthusiasts that happen to be of a race other than caucasian. Kinda like "Pink Pistols", but black. Brown. Red. Whatever.

Get a good buncha members, then have the "Black Pistols" join the NAACP as a group. Work on the NAACP from the inside. Nothing brings platform change like a very vocal membership.

As to the idea that in "...today's world color is not as big a factor as it used to be not matter what they think..." - Well I just have to disagree. I've been poking around on MySpace a little lately. Even made my own profile. I see racism all over... Sometimes it's blatant, sometimes it's covert. Sometimes, the racist doesn't even know he/she is being racist. It's still a problem, and IMO, it's something humans are never going to be completely without.

Along with helping foster the separation of "haves" and "have nots", our society has encouraged segregation, keeping "have nots" restricted to certain areas, where rents are low. Real estate prices have gone so high where I live that most people that work here (cops, firefighters, etc) can't afford to live in the county. Good for me, not good for America as a whole.

I would encourage the organization of a nation-wide group of minority gun owners, if for no other reason than to reinforce the idea that equality really means equality. In all things.

cordex
March 6, 2006, 01:15 PM
Cordex, you vast knowledge of economics is overwhelming.
Why thank you, comrade!

DigitalWarrior
March 6, 2006, 01:24 PM
I have a great example:
A talented electical engineer that I work for needed a bit I never heard of, so he goes to a supply house and asks for it. He is told "that part doesn't exist, you really mean xxx". He said no I mean I need a yyy. He was told again, "look, you probably heard your boss wrong, you want an xxx"

So he pulls a broken yyy out of his pocket and says, "This is a yyy and I need it to do such and such for the thingie I am building."

This happened last week.

Expectations of incompetance suck
Will

cordex
March 6, 2006, 02:10 PM
Cordex, do you truely believe that wanting the little man to rise up, form unions, demand fair wages and safe working conditions, want their children to be able to become educated and better themselves, etc. is socialist? If so let me know when your birthday is...I would like to buy you a dictionary and a history book
November 23rd.

I love books.

Of course, if you truly believe that the "little man" needs unions and their "progressive" politics to be successful, perhaps you'd better keep that history book and maybe forgo buying me another dictionary in favor of buying yourself an economics book. Preferably not one published in Hollywood. ;)

Unions have their place but for the most part they're leeches at best. Fair wages are what the employee and employer agree is fair. Safe working conditions are important. Any American seeking a truly good education for themselves or their children can find one for little or no monetary cost ... and I'm not talking about public schools.

I'm still not sure what all that has to do with the "haves" keeping the "have nots" under their heel.

c_yeager
March 6, 2006, 02:15 PM
His response was that they were not against the poor being able to defend themselves, but in poor communities there are gun stores on every corner, and that the availability of guns is hurting the community, leading to all kinds of bad stuff.



Here is my problem with people like this ("activists"). These guys put politics above all else. For example, this man has no problem with telling a bald faced lie right to the faces of a gathering of people who he is trying to interact with in a proffesional manner. When did this become OK?

Art Eatman
March 6, 2006, 02:17 PM
Drifting a bit, but some perspective:

Back some 30 years ago, the "usual suspects" in Congress started beating the drum to outlaw cheap handguns. The then-members of the Black Caucus were near unanimous in objecting, crying racism against poor people.

Then, as now, there was a strong relationship between the Black Caucus in Congress and the NAACP.

Times change. Views change, and not necessarily for the betterment of the "membership".

I support working from within to effect change. One should be prepared, however, to realize that sometimes one is emulating Don Quixote.

Art

bogie
March 6, 2006, 02:20 PM
"Sir, if you think that there is a gun shop on every street corner, or even in every square mile, of any major urban area, then I suspect that you haven't been in too many of those areas lately."

M2 Carbine
March 6, 2006, 02:31 PM
I would not join.
I see no reason to support my country's enemies (anti gun organizations) with my money and membership count.

aguyindallas
March 6, 2006, 02:32 PM
First of all, I appreciate your efforts.

I think joining will just work against us to be very honest. They are an organization that represents a populous. If you join, you add to the roster. As such, while it may not be true, they would be your representative in this case and that will mean they are fighting for you.

I think you can encourage a different way of thinking by asking to perhaps speak and educate their populous without joining their numbers.

Another thing that occured to me. While it might be true that more gun shops are in poor neighborhoods (not sure one way or the other IMHO), is probably because of the very low profitability of these types of business. Gun margins are generally very low and it is a very competitive business, especially in the age of the internet. How can gun stores afford to open up in prime retail shopping centers and even get in the arena of making profits with small margins and essentially a small target market in comparison to things like cell phone stores, clothing, etc... That dog won't hunt.

Another way that you can help them become educated and open minded is volunteering for the NRA, GOA, JPFO, etc...Help them with the SPECIFIC direction that you want to become more focussed on speaking to, not against the NAACP about things like this. Remember, if you are speaking to them, not against them, your message will be much better received.

Jim K
March 6, 2006, 02:42 PM
Just one more reason many black people think the NAACP is nothing but a hand puppet for left-liberal (and basically racist) whites. The liberals have made no particular secret that gun control is directed at blacks, that abortion is meant to get rid of black babies, and that welfare programs are intended to keep blacks in permanent political subjugation to the left.

A certain liberal "humorist" who is violently anti-gun and pro-animal rights, went into a city that was engaged in a rat killing program. He was on the side of the rats, denouncing the city for killing "innocent, lovable" animals. The mayor showed him a picture of a baby that had been chewed by rats in his crib. The "funny guy" responded that, "Rats have to eat and there are too many of the little black b*****ds anyhow." All very funny, of course; typical left wing humor. Not a peep from the NAACP.

Jim

Hollowdweller
March 6, 2006, 02:53 PM
YOU my friend are what political change is all about!

GOOD JOB in giving a wakeup call to the NAACP!


YES you should join and try to change it from within!

Maxwell
March 6, 2006, 03:10 PM
I would encourage the organization of a nation-wide group of minority gun owners, if for no other reason than to reinforce the idea that equality really means equality. In all things.

A valid point to make I think.
Its an area where gun rights have been eroding the fastest.

Its an unfortunate fact that many of our group earn less money and live around the inner city areas. Places where gun control and high cost for CCW(when its even an option) have done the most damage. The higher rate of crimes commited here are enevitably black on black, making a mess of the statistics for some races.

For many of us the battle over the 2nd amendment has already been lost and its taking our other rights with it.

One reason Im a bit pissed at the naacp.

I mean, here you have a right spelled out clearly in the founding fathers handwriting. You've got a people who are obviously opressed by "the man". Youve got blatently unconstitutional actions and guys unfairly put in jail over unjust laws. Youve got victems with no way to defend themselves or no way to afford whats allowed. Youve got a racist empowering crime wave that needs to stopped in its tracks. Youve also got fire breathing rednecks, whites, rich guys, jews and all of the nations gun groups in 100% agreement with the minorities right to bear arms. Their all just waiting in the hills for some signal just to join your cause.

An easy battle to win, and key to securing the rights of minorities in the future... then the NAACP sides with the government and the KKK?

***!?
Talk about snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

Pafrmu
March 6, 2006, 03:12 PM
Yeah! Sing it brother!
В победе бессмертных идей коммунизма
Мы видим грядущее нашей страны,
И Красному знамени славной Отчизны
Мы будем всегда беззаветно верны!


Too funny!!!

asiparks
March 6, 2006, 03:21 PM
You may well not be a lone voice, there are many members within the NAACP that agree with it's broad agenda, but disagree on some issues or who simply haven't given much thought to some of it's stances. Many others simply don't want to go against the flow, stir things up, so keep their opinions quiet. I have no idea if this particular stance is driven by the personal views of some of it's somewhat politicized leadership, or the belief that's what the majority of their members support, but you might be surprised at how many agree with you, and how many fence-sitters can be won over through clear rational argument. see Jim Marches excellent post http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=187004 as an example. Build links to those within, encourage those who sit on the fence to jump off, see what happens...

Yowza
March 6, 2006, 03:44 PM
"Sir, if you think that there is a gun shop on every street corner, or even in every square mile, of any major urban area, then I suspect that you haven't been in too many of those areas lately."
There may not be "gun shops" as such everywhere, but that doesn't mean there aren't places that sell guns--like pawn shops. Around here pawn shops are always concentrated in the lower income areas. No big surprise there, huh? And almost all of them have guns for sale.

As to the NAACP thing, I just can't help but believe they often do far more harm than good, and not only on this issue. It's hard for me to imagine much change anytime soon.

Rick

MAUSER88
March 6, 2006, 04:41 PM
When blacks start taking responsibility for their own actions and stop blaming the White man for every problem in their life, that's the time to join.

roo_ster
March 6, 2006, 04:42 PM
DW:

If you do join, prepare for much frustration. From his responses, poSDNAACP holds his anti-gun beliefs as an article of faith or is willing to parrot the party line without deviation.

DigitalWarrior
March 6, 2006, 05:14 PM
Mauser:
That time has come and gone. There are few areas where that crops up. Most of their activities here have to do with strengthening the youth so that they are able to more effectively deal with the abscence of two parent households.

Wiley
March 6, 2006, 06:07 PM
May I suggest that you look into the Congress of Racial Equality (http://core-online.org).

According to his bio on the site, Roy Innis is an NRA member and supporter of Second Amendment Rights.

Gifted
March 6, 2006, 09:13 PM
Even if there are that many gunsshops-it's not them. You have background checks that are required, sometimes more hassle in some places, if you're getting illicit guns from a store, the owner is a criminal, and it all revolves back to people who have no regard for the law.

grimjaw
March 6, 2006, 09:21 PM
in poor communities there are gun stores on every corner

. . . selling Colt .45's at 1/8 retail?

If the community is poor, how can it afford such a raging market of gun sales?

jmm

4v50 Gary
March 6, 2006, 09:28 PM
Maybe my vision needs to be checked, but I can point out more liquor stores, check cashing joints, and funeral parlors in neighborhoods where NAACP membership than gun stores.

Standing Wolf
March 6, 2006, 10:04 PM
I am still thinking about joining, and attempting to change the attitude of the organization from the inside. I just worry about giving material support to the enemy. What do you think?

I'm sure the NAACP has more than plenty of dues-paying members, and isn't teetering on the brink of extinction. Changing it from within is probably about as likely as teaching a cat to whistle: the organization has far too much invested in the status quo even to consider change.

If there isn't a predominantly black Second Amendment organization, maybe the time has come to start one. If we can support the Pink Pistols and Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership and the Second Amendment Sisters, surely we can make room in our hearts and wallets for another Second Amendment specialty group.

crazed_ss
March 6, 2006, 11:18 PM
When blacks start taking responsibility for their own actions and stop blaming the White man for every problem in their life, that's the time to join

Please dont insult me.

I'm black and I've never blamed the "white man" for anything in my entire life. My mother raised me and my 2 sisters all by herself. We never received a penny in social assistance.. no welfare, no wic, no food stamps. I did 5 years active duty in the Marines and got out and got a job as a Network Engineer on merit alone.. no quotas, no affirmative action, nothing.. I'm 26 yrs old and I've never been to jail and I dont have any illegimate kids.

So like I said.. please dont try to lump all Blacks together. It's terribly insulting. That's one thing I can't stand about this board. People constantly talking down or stereotyping those who dont look like them. And then you guys wonder why you have such a hard time getting people into the RKBA cause.

crashm1
March 7, 2006, 12:45 AM
+ 1 crazed ss

Kim
March 7, 2006, 12:48 AM
O:K here is a difference. I am white. I have this to say. When the white trash folks stop having children out of wedlock, cooking meth and stealing I might feel sorry for them and think the MAN is keeping them down. I might think that it is the haves even of their own race(whatever the heck that is) that is keeping them down. Till then I could care less if they are my people. I have no people. I am a human being. I am an American. I am resposible for myself. All the government programs in the world are not going to change these white trash into responsible citizens. The best that can be done is throw them a check and maybe they will not steal you blind. When all other ethic groups start feeling that way they will have won the fight. I do not feel sorry for these people of mine I pity them for throwing away their lives while living in a country that offers freedom and a better life but only if they make the choice. Oh I know some will say but they are white and are not oppressed. Exactly WHAT IS THEIR EXCUSE. Well if they did not have the government sending them their checks they might get a job. I have seen decay in the white population to a great extent since welfare came into being. I thank God it was not around when I grew up. All those times my parents worked,prayed, worried were well worth it and made better people of the whole family. I cringe to think if the deadly apple of government dependence had been hanging on the tree and my Dad took a bite.

Kim
March 7, 2006, 12:52 AM
Call me the WHITE BILL COSBY. :D

PlayboyPenguin
March 7, 2006, 12:57 AM
[quote=kim]When the white trash folks stop having children out of wedlock, cooking meth and stealing[quote]
Hey, have you been reading my diary??? I can't help it if I am from West Virginia. That just happens to be where my uncle-daddy and auntie-momma done birthed me. :)

crazed_ss
March 7, 2006, 12:59 AM
Well personal responsibility, poverty, crime, etc and all that is another thread onto itself.

In the case of the NAACP here.. I think it would be beneficial for someone with a differing point of view on firearms to join up. I've noticed that once you demystify guns and teak the fear out of people, they change their views on guns pretty quickly. I dont know how many threads I've read on here where people say "I took my anti friend shooting and now he doesnt hate guns anymore!" Referring to the NAACP as "enemies" will only serve to hurt the RKBA cause by writing people off and putting up barriers to communication.

Years ago, black groups used to be pro-gun. I dont know what happened.
They wanted people to be able to defend themselves against others that would do them harm or deprive them of their rights. This picture comes to mind.

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/7/73/150px-Malcomxm1carbine.gif

Now it seems they want to disarm poor blacks because of the actions of criminals I guess :(

TheotherMikeG
March 7, 2006, 01:00 AM
If there isn't a predominantly black Second Amendment organization, maybe the time has come to start one. If we can support the Pink Pistols and Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership and the Second Amendment Sisters, surely we can make room in our hearts and wallets for another Second Amendment specialty group.


Amen, Standing Wolf! Please consider me a prospective new member of said organization. How about African Americans for Gun Ownership (AAFGO)?

ArmedBear
March 7, 2006, 01:41 AM
It is stupid, wrong, and insulting to a lot of great people to write that "black Americans blame the white man for all their problems." I'm with you there.

However, when I listen to the speeches that occasionally drift out of the dinners and rallies, I think that it is valid to suggest that the NAACP, at least its political wing, DOES engage in a lot of blame rhetoric. This tends to drown out the good that the group is doing, in the ears of most. I think the organization shoots itself in the foot repeatedly.

The UNCF's incredibly powerful commercials and print ads really hammered home the notion that "a mind is a terrible thing to waste." I don't even know what their politics are. They could have been Stalinists for all I know; I just know that they will forever be associated with scholarships for smart kids without wealthy parents.

It is also stupid, wrong, and insulting when the MSM refers to some individuals as "Black Leaders" or "leaders of the African-American community." No matter how many Calvary Chapels and offshoots there may be, no one refers to Chuck Smith as a "leader of the white suburbanite community." When Peter Jennings, et al., treated Louis Farrakhan as if he were a representative of black Americans a few years back, they thought they were being polite and respectful. This was far from the truth, and served only to reinforce the notion that, rather than a leader of an odd and perhaps scary cult, he actually was a voice representing the views of a critical mass of African-Americans. Yes, this notion was rejected by many of us who try to think things through and avoid bigotry. But one must remember that it is often "liberals" who reinforce these stereotypes.

Does this excuse ignorant bigots? No! But does increase the burden of quiet bigotry on black people who really are ready and able to do great things, and have nothing to do with Farrakhan, Sharpton, et al.? Sadly, yes.

So what's my point? I, personally, wouldn't join a group that didn't represent me or my first principles. The whole point of joining such a group is to give strength to your beliefs in a large democratic society, and to get people to take notice.

There must be other opportunities to do worthwhile charitable community work and help others in need, without strengthening those who oppose some of your core values.

Hawkmoon
March 7, 2006, 01:59 AM
But now for the question: I am still thinking about joining, and attempting to change the attitude of the organization from the inside. I just worry about giving material support to the enemy. What do you think?

I think this is a very personal decision, one which you must make for yourself. If you can access the information (if it even exists as a tabulation), it would help if you could find out what the total membership of the NAACP is, and how many members support the anti-gun position. That would tell you if there is sufficnent critical mass for you to begin an interaction with, or if you would find yourself a lone voice crying out in the wilderness (thereby serving no function other than financing the position you wish to oppose).

Hawkmoon
March 7, 2006, 02:06 AM
Maybe my vision needs to be checked, but I can point out more liquor stores, check cashing joints, and funeral parlors in neighborhoods where NAACP membership than gun stores.
An excellent point.

I live near a moderate-sized city with a large minority population (how can it still be a "minority" population when there are more of them than non-minorities?) and a large NAACP membership. Lots of liquor stores and, as Gary mentions, check cashing storefronts. And lottery tickets being sold everywhere.

To the best of my knowledge, there isn't a single gun shop in the city. The last one moved out over a year ago and is now located in a suburb, a good 15 miles outside of the city. That departure, however, has not caused any reduction in the number of gang-related drive-by shootings. If El Presidente had said "guns being sold on street corners" I might agree with him, but "gunshops on every corner"? Doubtful.

dzimmerm
March 7, 2006, 02:44 AM
Saying there is a gun store on every corner implies a lot of things.

Saying there are guns being sold illegally on every corner implies a bunch of different things.

Which group of things do you think would be in the favor of the NAACP's stance?

If a person or organization uses misdirection or circumlocution in their statements then they are no longer a voice I can hear.

dzimmerm

LMC
March 7, 2006, 03:12 AM
crazed ss, i understand what you are getting at but people like you are a very small percentage of the black population, with that said how many people that are members of the naacp thinks like you do? my guess if slim if any, and till they all do we will continue to have this problem with them and their antis ways, also they are very racist and i would never give money to an organization that dispises the white race, they are just like the kkk with a better disguise.

crazed_ss
March 7, 2006, 03:20 AM
The NAACP is as bad as the KKK? Please..
How many murders and bombings are the NAACP responsible for? How many families have been terrorized in the middle of the night by costumed black men on horses?

And how do you know I'm a small percentage of the black population? How many black people to you even interact with on a daily basis? People always blame the mainstream media for making gun and gun owners look bad, yet you guys get your ideas and images of black people from these same media outlets. On every board I go on people always say "Blacks are always blaming whites for everything!!!" .. In my experience, most blacks are just trying to work, survive, and be happy.. just like everyone else.

And who says the NAACP "despises" whites? Please get your facts straight before you post.

EDIT: here's a quick start.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naacp
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kkk

VacuumJockey
March 7, 2006, 04:47 AM
We all know that the ACLU holds basically an anti-gun ownership position: they concur with the (flawed) 1939 US vs. Miller SCOTUS decision, and their take is that only the militia may bear arms, and the militia is now essentially the National- or State Guard.

So, the next time you happen to debate someone who holds this asinine view, you need to ask the question of them thus: “So what you’re saying is that only the police and military may own firearms?"

* If they say “No”, then ask them under what circumstances a private citizen may then own a firearm. If they mumble something about “hunting”, ask them why the Founding Fathers would have been so insistent on protecting the right to hunt—especially in light of the fact that not one of their individual writings of the time allude to hunting, at all, whereas on several occasions the right to self-defense is mentioned, among other reasons (but not hunting).
* If they say “Yes”, then you can kick them in the teeth say, “Well, that situation really worked out well for the Jews in Nazi Germany and for Soviet dissidents, didn’t it?"
* The final question to be asked is this: “Can you think of any time in this nation’s history when the Jewish Holocaust could have taken place?"

If they still hold their original opinion after this, ask them that if they were ever the target for some kind of punitive governmental action, whether they would expect you to come to their aid.

Facts, and history, are on the side of the citizen gun owner. Don’t ever let them try to change that truth.

DigitalWarrior
March 7, 2006, 09:35 AM
LMC, you strain my ability to act politely.

Crazed is not like a small percentage of the population, unless you are counting men who are 26 yo, raised by their mother, with two sisters, former marines turned network engineers. The fact that you find his story exceptional screams that you need to go find a church with a black congregation, and attend for two months. When you come back you might have something more reasonable to say.

NAACP is not very similar to the KKK. Has the grand-donkey-mule of any coven of KKnucKleheads EVER asked a black guy to join up? I (fat white guy) was asked by the PoSDNAACP to join.

Will
:cuss:

ARTiger
March 7, 2006, 11:07 AM
Lately the NAACP seems to be blindly backing ultra liberal causes whether or not they have anything to do with African Americans.

My question would be this . . . How many gun crimes are perpetrated by the original purchaser of a handgun from a licensed dealer? Do any of you LEO types have an FBI stat on that somewhere? My guess is the percentage would be very small. Also, I'd bet a larger percentage than everyone would think of inner-city murders are done with blades of some sort rather than guns.

Maxwell
March 7, 2006, 01:01 PM
I think what we've been seeing is a firm belief in gun control acting itself out.
Many people think "black men are violent, we must sieze their weapons"... before noticing that many of their communities are already disarmed to the point where criminals go from one violent act to another unopposed.

My question would be this . . . How many gun crimes are perpetrated by the original purchaser of a handgun from a licensed dealer?

Very few.
If I recall one article debunking the "evil gun show" myth, it noted that far more crime weapons came from straw purchasers than legal sources.

In other words we should have been screening the white folks who buy 10 guns at a time in another state and can fly easily through all the federal loopholes, instead of worrying over gun shops in minority population centers that follow all the rules.

The government attacks the dealers because their static targets and Id wager (simply because of location) its a good chance these stores are also being run by minorities.

PlayboyPenguin
March 7, 2006, 01:08 PM
ARTiger, this website has some interesting info...
http://www.benbest.com/lifeext/murder.html
It seems to say that 40% of all murders are black on black but 40% are white on white. It says 17% was black killing white and only 3% was white killing black. I would never have guessed these to be the numbers. Unfortunately it does not differentiate between gun and knife deaths or other causes. It does give the percentage of gun homicides as being roughly 2/3 in the US.

Davo
March 7, 2006, 02:09 PM
This has been a good subject. I recommend you DO join the NAACP. I belileve that many who have joined for other reasons which frankly are more important to them, need exposure to other viewpoints. When EVERYONE around you thinks the same, and only spews the same "facts" over and over you miss one very important thing-perspective. Perhaps a white guy who cares enough to join up may not be such a bad guy...and maybe he's even got a point.
crazed_ss you have made some very eloquent points, and I realize that others constantly assuming that you are a drug-dealing gang banger is no way to go through life. Perhaps all of the readers of this post should stop and relflect on the point that much of the info we get on the black population is from the media, and its usually negative. Im only 25 and I think that pretty much all teens look like little punks :p , and thats regardless of color.
One more for you all who think its color thats the problem. The recent development of a black and hispanic middle class has brought one more idea home. ITS THE CULTURE OF POVERTY, NOT RACE thats the problem. Its no coincidence that many of these people are poor, and its not because of color. Its lazyness, entitlement, and ignorance.

jbrown50
March 7, 2006, 02:16 PM
DigitalWarrior I too have considered joining the NAACP. On the other hand
Jim Keenan's post expresses exactly how I've come to feel about this once great organization.

They're more interested in gaining political power nowadays than supporting the causes of civil rights. They blindly support and identify with the extreme left even when the left's issues are either blatantly racist and detrimental to African Americans or violate civil rights. They support the anti-Constitutional proposals of the loony left in exchange for political crumbs that are thrown at them like birds.

That being said, I have a couple of friends who are members. They're telling me that changes are coming about and that the younger leadership are refusing to just follow the status quo. ;)

SSN Vet
March 7, 2006, 04:31 PM
Interesting post...thanks Digital Warrior for putting it out there.

Re. the xxx drill bit.....that kind of thing has happened to me before...but I assume it's the result of the clerk being ill informed and too stubborn to admit it. The "boss" comment, with the limited detail given, does not necessarily imply a racist attitude. I'm an engineer and tradesmen types love to rag on "Mr. Dapper Dan engineer" because my hands are less calloused. So what! I'm secure in who I am.

Re. the NAACP....I've considered joining it myself.....but have concluded that any organization that serves to promote one race (or group of races) exclusively is itself inherently racist.

IMHO the only way this country is going to move beyond where it's stuck and the land of MLK Jr.'s dream is going to be when we become completely color blind. Let's face it....there's only one race...it's called the human race.

Other distinctions are pure fabrication by people with agendas. A Fig-Newton of the imagination.

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