[Lebe]

Bush never misses an opportunity to voice accolades for our young men in the military,.. but when it comes time for him to break out the wallet, what does he do? He finds something on his agenda which deserves 25 (B)illion dollars and funds it by pillaging the pockets of Americas veterans.

http://www.house.gov/strickland/Budget2003Rel.html

[Tamara]

You know what's amazing?

That a self-professed "libertarian" could take seriously any spiel that starts with the line:
"The House leadership has forced through a resolution that shamelessly funds an outlandish tax cut for the wealthy on the backs of veterans, children and the poor," said Strickland.

Carry on... :p

[Lebe]

Tamara,.. I don't doubt that there's some political rhetoric and posturing going on,.. but that doesn't change the facts.

Bush slashed veterans benifits to a significant degree,.. and at a time when he was sending young men into combat.

That stinks,...and you know it,..

...regardless of your personal opinion of the messenger,..

[LawDog]

STRICKLAND BLASTS HOUSE-PASSED BUDGET RESOLUTION FOR SEVERELY UNDER-FUNDING VETERANS BENEFITS AND HEALTH CARE

Congressman Ted Strickland strongly criticized the Budget that passed the House early this morning for slashing funding for veterans health care and other domestic programs.

The budget pushed through by House leaders

And from the post that started this thread:
Bush never misses an opportunity to voice accolades for our young men in the military,.. but when it comes time for him to break out the wallet, what does he do? He finds something on his agenda which deserves 25 (B)illion dollars and funds it by pillaging the pockets of Americas veterans.

George W. Bush is in the House of Representatives?

Bloody hell, here I was thinking that the man was President.

Thank you, Lebe, for enlightening me that George W. Bush is actually part of the Legislative Branch, instead of the Executive Branch as I had thought.

LawDog

[WonderNine]

own3d! :p

:D :D :D :D

[Keith]

I'm retired military. The best present congress could give the military would be to totally shut down the VA, followed by the tar and feathering of every useless bureaucrat who has any connection to that organization! Perhaps pistol-whipping would be better than tar and feathering, or even summary executions...

At any rate, the VA is the absolute nadir of bureaucratic excess waste and stupidity! The "programs" are generally useless and/or surpassed by similar items offered by veterans groups for 1/10th the cost.

The medical care is absolutely shocking! I am absolutely convinced that any health care provider working within that system does so because he/she is too dangerous and incompetent to be employed elsewhere. It sickens me that a disabled vet would be forced into one of these filthy buildings staffed by incompetent scum!

If you want to do the military a favor, shut the VA down and use that wasted money to give military people a REAL health insurance program - something along the lines of what these useless federal bureaucrats get now!

Rant =Off=

Keith

[cuchulainn]

You know what's amazing?

That a self-professed "libertarian" could take seriously any spiel that starts with the line: ...or would describe what might occur as "pillaging the pockets."

When did "no longer give" become "take"?

When did "give less" become "take"?

[Leatherneck]

What Keith said. :scrutiny:

Oh, and what WonderNine said too. :neener:

TC
TFL Survivor

[El Tejon]

Since the VA is a Congressional gift which is obtained via violence from the people, how is cutting the size of the gift "a pillage"?

[George Dickel]

Keith, apparently you have had some bad experiences with the VA but for you to label the all people there as incompetent and dangerous is way out of bounds. Just like the leftwingers saying all gun owners are homicidal maniacs waiting for the right button to be pushed to launch them into a killing rampage. I do agree with your comments on the waste and bureaucratic garbage in that organization.

My dad was quite ill for a number of years before he died. He received excellent care while in the VA hospital in Omaha, NE. I can't remeber how many times he was admitted in very critical condition and they pulled him through. Every question I had they answered to my complete satisfaction. I could not believe the compassion and attention they gave him during his stays in the hospital.

After my mom died, dad came to stay with me for awhile in Tennessee. He brought a large box of medications he had to take every day. There were 21 different drugs he took multiple times per day. He had pills he didn't know what they were for or what they did, or if he was still supposed to take them. I called the pharmacy in the VA hospital in Omaha and talked with a pharmacist. He took the time to obtain dad's medical records to determine what he was supposed to be taking. He then called me and spend almost an hour on the phone telling me what to throw out and what to keep and how often dad was supposed to take them. Dad was almost out of one particular drug that he had to take every day when he came to Tennessee. The pharmacist refilled that prescription and personally put it in the mail to me that day so it would be there before he ran out. You would have thought Dad was a retired general or something instead of a lowly engine room "wiper" on a merchant marine ship considering the attention they gave him.

VA hospitals get a bad rap because of the mortality rate of it's patients. Most of the patients the VA sees are WWII and Korean War vets who are old and in many cases in poor health or are suffering from severe injuries from military service. This leads to a very high death rate when compared to other hospitals where you have a much younger average age of patient. VA hospitals have problems but so do all hospitals. I have heard horror stories about the community hospital where I live and I'm sure there are the same stories in nearly every city in the country. I imagine you have had your own problems with the VA but in your anger you are maligning a lot of good people who don't deserve it.

[jmbg29]

Why not learn how "our" political system operates, then get back to us about "our" troops. :rolleyes: :uhoh: :barf:

[bastiat]

I haven't been around much...is Lebe one of our special European 'friends' like those who began to inhabit TFL late last year?

[Keith]

George,

I spent twenty years in military medicine and dealt with the VA on a regular basis. I know the system, I know the people who work within the system, I know some of the outright scams used to get more people into the system (to increase the budget). In fact, when I retired I had some VA buffoon "counsel" me on how I could scam my way into a VA disability, even though I was healthy!

I'm glad your dad got good care there, but honestly wouldn't he have gotten better care in a private hospital around the corner from where he lived? And didn't he deserve that?

This isn't a case of needing more money, it's a case of spending money wisely. That VA budget added to the money spent on the CHAMPUS/Tricare system would be plenty enough to give military folks a decent health care system.

It's appalling that some drone in a federal bureaucracy can get a great health care plan when he retires, but a military man who has spent 20 or 30 years of 80 hour work weeks (when he isn't getting shot at) is kicked out on the street with a useless health plan that bankrupts him the first time he needs health care or worse, told to go to some filthy VA hospital 250 miles from where he lives.

Nobody is served by this system. The taxpayers money is wasted and the military man gets substandard care.

It just ain't right!

Keith

[bountyhunter]

How many reservists families will suffer because of the +70% drop in pay they will experience when they are recalled to service. There will be medals for all, but never a decent wage.

There are many groups presently trying to raise food and clothes to help them. Some of them will be unable to make mortgage payments and lose their homes. You won't be hearing about them in any GWB speeches.

[bountyhunter]

"I'm retired military. The best present congress could give the military would be to totally shut down the VA, followed by the tar and feathering of every useless bureaucrat who has any connection to that organization! Perhaps pistol-whipping would be better than tar and feathering, or even summary executions..."

That's only a slightly exaggerated version of exactly what happened in the VA when Jimmy carter took office. I can understand why there are so many vets who hate the VA. I remember it VERY well because my father (who served 33 years) was quite ill and being given the runaround for the disability benefits he was entitled to in 1976. My father (unlike many other vets) was a real fighter and didn't give up... but, he was getting nowhere. When Carter took office he reviewed the VA's handling procedures and fired the head of the VA. he let it be known he wouldn't stand for the old practice of "stall them until they die and then the problem is gone". My father was given the benefits he deserved courtesy of Mr. Carter. Some years later, when my father was dying, he was given a place at a military hospital and received good care. However, I do remember clearly that there was a fight between his doctor and the hospital management over him. His doctor was ordered to discharge him and send him home because he had terminal cancer. The doctor refused and said he wouldn't do it because he needed to be monitored to adequately control the pain. The stupid thing was, they didn't even need the bed. The ward was only about 1/3 full.

I don't know what the present status of the VA is. I know it improved some since then, but I also know it's a lot less than it should be.

[George Dickel]

I'm retired military also and I have seen so many benefits taken away after I retired that were promised to us while I was on active duty. I would love to have the pension plan that senators and congressmen get not to mention their health plan. I blame a lot of it on the elimination of the draft. Hardly any in the congress have military experience and very little of the general populace have ever been or have a family member in the service, so they really don't care. I believe it's going to get worse before it gets better, if it ever does.

I have heard reports of guard and reserve personnel losing homes, businesses and having other severe financial problems because of long term activations. Yes, I know they volunteered but traditionally the guard has only been used for national emergencies (like world war), short term for riot control or natural disaster relief assistance. Now they are being used like full time active units. The government likes this arrangement because it is cheap manpower. They don't have to maintain active duty units all the time to have the troops necessary when they get involved in these brushfire wars. As a minimum the government should make up the difference between their military pay and their civilian pay. Otherwise no one is going to join the guard or reserves if it means losing everything they have worked for.

[John G]

Hooray! Another one of Lebe's anti-Bush threads! I'm starting to think there's an agenda here, but I'll surely be set straight. :rolleyes:

[answerguy]

How many reservists families will suffer because of the +70% drop in pay they will experience when they are recalled to service. There will be medals for all, but never a decent wage.

Just a hunch. How many of those servicemen who got called to active duty and are now taking a 70% drop in pay only have those high paying jobs because of the education they got trough being in the military in the first place?

[Leatherneck]

Answerguy,
I don't have the answer to that one either, but don't denigrate bountyhunter's point about the drastic (in many cases) cuts in family budgets that the reservists and Guardsmen endure to serve on active duty. It's quite a hardship in most cases.

I still am with Keith on the issue of VA effectiveness. I think that budget could be much better spent by subsidizing vets' medical insurance to participate in a PPO or HMO plan of their choice. Hell, everything ELSE is getting contracted out; why not health care?

TC
TFL (and USMC) Survivor :D

[George Dickel]

Hit the wrong key and posted before I wanted and could not get my earlier post to delete.

I searched for a current pay scale for the military and here are some samlings of what a guard/reserve member will receive per month while on active duty as of 1 Jan 2003.

PFC E-3 (2 yrs svc) Base Pay $ 1,356.90
Hostile Fire Pay $ 150.00
If married Housing Allowance 469.80
Family Separation 100.00

Corporal E-4 (4 yrs Svc) Base Pay $ 1,749.30
Hostile Fire Pay 150.00
If married Housing Allowance 504.60
Family Separation 100.00

Staff Sergeant E-6 (8 yrs svc) Base Pay $ 2,400.90
(Squad Leader) Hostile Fire Pay 150.00
If married Housing Allowance 645.90
Family Separation 100.00

SFC E-7 (12 yrs svc) Base Pay $ 2,838.30
(Platoon Sergeant) Hostile Fire Pay 150.00
If married Housing Allowance 698.70
Family Separation 100.00

Captain 0-3 (6 yrs svc) Base Pay $ 4,069.50
(Company Commander) Hostile Fire Pay 150.00
If married Housing Allowance 795.00
Family Separation 100.00

Lieutenant Colonel 0-5 (20 yrs svc) Base pay $ 6,329.10
(Battalion Commander) Hostile Fire Pay 150.00
If married Housing Allowance 1,090.20
Family Separation 100.00

They only receive the hostile fire pay if in a combat area.


Most people will fall into the Corporal and lower category. It doesn’t take much of a civilian job to top the pay they receive while on active duty. An aircraft mechanic making $60,000 + a year working for a major airline but is a Staff Sergeant in the guard takes a huge pay cut. How about a Lieutenant Colonel pilot who makes $150,000 + as a civilian airline pilot. A mid level manager in a corporation making $75,000 + as a Captain on active duty. I doubt very many people in the guard/reserves have gotten training that qualified them for a high paying job in the civilian market.

The opportunity is there for all to take advantgage of, just see your friendly recruiter.

[John G]

Yeah, the army pay is ridiculously low. Don't forget to factor in housing, clothing allowance, and full medical/dental coverage. Still, its too low. When I was in, I had more than one buddy who qualified for food stamps. That's just wrong.

Part of being in the military is the pride of service, but your kids can't eat pride.

[Leatherneck]

George:
But those cats get free travel and MREs! :D

TC
TFL Survivor

[George Dickel]

You know Leatherneck, I kinda liked the MRE's. They were a big improvement over C Rations. Some of the C Rations were really horrid, especially the beef and potatoes if you had to eat them cold.

When I was stationed at Ft. Hood, TX I spent a lot of time in the field. We usually went out on a Monday and returned on Friday and then back out again on Monday. Did that for about 8 months one year and the whole time we ate C Rations morning, noon and night. :barf:

[bountyhunter]

My father retired at full colonel from the Air Force in 1966 after 33 years of service. His retirement pay was as I recall, about $750/month. Try feeding a family of six on that. Our family was so poor on the retirement income alone we qualified for both food stamps and AFDC (aid to families with dependent children). They wouldn't take it. Their generation would rather starve than be "on the dole" as it was called back when they grew up.

So, he went straight out and got a job (had to) and worked his retirement years until a near-fatal heart attack dropped him for good about eight years later. That's when we found out how much all those promises about lifetime medical care were worth (not much), and he had to sue the VA. Still appreciate Jimmy Carter, without him we would have never gotten anything out of the VA. Jimmy may not have been a stellar president, but he wouldn't stand for reaming vets.

[answerguy]

My father retired at full colonel from the Air Force in 1966 after 33 years of service. His retirement pay was as I recall, about $750/month. Try feeding a family of six on that. Our family was so poor on the retirement income alone we qualified for both food stamps and AFDC (aid to families with dependent children). They wouldn't take it. Their generation would rather starve than be "on the dole" as it was called back when they grew up.

Now I'm really confused. It sounds like he retired with four children still at home. Did he have to retire in 1966? IIRC $750 a month in 1966 was pretty good money, on a par with a GM employee I'm willing to bet. What was his age in 1966? Am I missing something?

[ahadams]

and my father retired from the Guard as a Chaplain (LTC) [that's Lieutenant Colonel to you Marines and AF guys and a Commander to you Navy folks] in 1972. He had 30 years in and couldn't stay in any longer than that, or he would have done so. Anyway VA was still okay in those days - even did heart bypass surgery for him when he needed it, and it wasn't 'service connected', at least officially. I was disabled out of the Army in 85 and again out of civil service in 90. Since that time I have seen treatment at VA hospitals degrade to the point where I will go to them only as a last resort.

Oh and for all the libertarian types who don't like the idea that taxes pay for VA benefits: too bad. The VA benefits were part of the package we signed up for and you'll get no appologies from me for doing my best to see that said contract is honored in full. If you don't like the fact that VA benefits are part of the package offered to those who defend your country, then change the rules and try recruiting folks without them...:fire:

[TexasVet]

some filthy VA hospital 250 miles from where he lives.

Nobody is served by this system.
------------------------------------------------------------------

Boy, you've obviously never been in the Southeast Texas VA system! Because that is maybe the MOST factually wrong statement I have read here in a while! About this area, at least.

I get care in a small town VA clinic that is top rate and when I had to have surgery in the (fairly new and kept spotlessly clean) Houston VA hospital, my surgeon was the guy from Baylor College of Medicine who INVENTED the procedure. At the time the surgeons were all from either Baylor or University of Texas schools of medicine. I think it's just Baylor now, but they are excellent.

I've been served and served WELL by this system here and I thank God for it every time I use it. In fact, for every step I take on a leg that I thought was toast 15 years ago, til they worked on it. Not to mention the bum heart that they have kept pumping.

The complaints you spout were valid here over 20 years ago, but not since then. I don't remember even having to wait more than 20 minutes past appointment time for regular visits. I can't get in that fast at the "private" clinic here in town.

[ahadams]

Texas Vet - it's gotta be because of where you are - when I was in AZ the big thing was they'd give us anything to make us shut up and it took FIVE YEARS before I got someplace that got me off the :cuss: :cuss: :cuss: narcotics those :cuss: got me on to begin with. Then when I was in DC they cut back so many :cuss: programs that the only vets who could get seen were those who were either deathly ill or able to wait 6 months without dying or having anything else happen to them... sorry but your experience is NOT the norm, at least in the last ten years or so...

[Preacherman]

I can provide a mixed, but overall very positive, report on the VA from recent experience. In Alexandria, LA, there's a small VA hospital. They don't do major procedures there, but provide ongoing care and minor surgical and medical treatment.

My dear friend, Debra, who died early in March, asked me to take her there in mid-February, when the pain became too much for her. She had served in the mid-1970's in the US Army, and had no documentation or anything else to confirm her status. Within four hours, she'd seen a nurse, then a doctor, had her veteran's status and eligibility for benefits confirmed, and been admitted. When the diagnosis finally was made - terminal cancer - she was treated up to the end with courtesy, care and loving attention. For me, as her pastor and "surrogate parent" until her own parents could get there, there was also great courtesy and consideration. There was one doctor who was a pain in the posterior, obviously incompetent and disliked intensely by all the staff there: but all the other doctors were professional and competent, and did a great job.

Debra died on March 2. Her funeral arrangements at the Alexandria National Cemetery were handled through the hospital, and she was buried with full military honors. I'm waiting for her memorial to arrive, so that we can erect it on her grave with due ceremony.

All this was done without charging her a cent. I guesstimate that she must have received something like $20,000 in medical care and funeral benefits over a four-week period, virtually all of which was first-rate. I'm impressed.

[Leatherneck]

That's a nice story, Preacherman.

Apparently, geographic locale has a lot to do with the quality and availability of VA health care. That, in its own right, strikes me as unfair to vets in the "wrong" locations.

FWIW, when I retired in 1985, I decided that considering the recent and pending reductions in DoD-sponsored health care, I'd bite the bullet and fund our own health insurance. Never looked back; it's just a normal part of our budget now.

TC
TFL Survivor

[Keith]

>>>>my surgeon was the guy from Baylor College of Medicine who INVENTED the procedure.<<<<

That's nice, but with a health plan you could simply have gone to the Baylor College of Medicine...
And of course many people don't happen to live in a state with the political pull to get all this military money spent in the home district.
See? It doesn't make any sense to try and run an expensive parallel health system when we already have a the finest medical care in the world in our private system. Why not just use that money to fund a health insurance plan so that everyone can get good care?

Keith

[TexasVet]

--------------------------------------------------
That's nice, but with a health plan you could simply have gone to the Baylor College of Medicine...
--------------------------------------------------
I HAVE a "nice" health plan. They just have this little "get out of jail card" about not covering service connected wartime injuries. That leg "belongs" to the VA, period.

Of course then the surgery would have cost 10 grand, the plan would have covered 80%, that's 2 grand I'd be out, and, OOPS, they would have taken the $500 deductable out too, so I'd have been out $2500! Gee, that sounds like a deal, especially since I got exactly the same care FOR FREE!

Explain to me again how that would be so great???

[Keith]

>>>>I HAVE a "nice" health plan. They just have this little "get out of jail card" about not covering service connected wartime injuries. That leg "belongs" to the VA, period. <<<<

Obviously, the plan WOULD cover service related disabilities. It would be an expanded version of the CHAMPUS/Tricare system.

[TexasVet]

Obviously, the plan WOULD cover service related disabilities. It would be an expanded version of the CHAMPUS/Tricare system.
----------------------------------------------------------------

You know, my retired military neighbor has been complaining that I get so much better care than he does. Because he's on CHAMPUS-whatever. He dislikes the cost of his plan, too. I still fail to see how I could possibly be better off if I had a "health care plan", cause I've yet to see one that was free!

[Keith]

>>>>my retired military neighbor has been complaining that I get so much better care than he does. Because he's on CHAMPUS-whatever. I still fail to see how I could possibly be better off if I had a "health care plan", cause I've yet to see one that was free!<<<<

I suppose that's the problem. Why does your retired military neighbor (like me) have to get by with CHAMPUS that only covers 50% (when all is said and done), then is tossed out onto medicare when he turns 65 - while some retired federal paper pusher gets an airtight health care plan for life?

And I suppose it works for you since you live in Texas where politicians have been able to poor a lot of pork. It doesn't work very well at all if you live elsewhere and have no health care. Who would live in Texas if they didn't have to?

I think military people should be entitled to health care, period. Not just health care when they live in a certain geographical area. Not just health care dependent on staffing and availability (as in military hospitals).

A large part of the problem is the knee-jerk defense by veterans of the old VA and military hospital system. These systems have never been efficient and can't be expected to since they are in effect, socialized medicine entirely dependent on funding, staffing, etc. Once you're retired you're at the bottom of the food chain for everything - and that's never going to change within the military system which after all, must care for the active duty first and foremost.

What's needed is to shift the CHAMPUS and VA funds into the federal employee health care system and shift all retirees into that very good plan.

[Leaky Waders]

My personal observations....

In both the Military and VA healthcare system teamwork, work ethic, and compassion are common place. Of course there are flaws. Of course there is inefficiency, but it's hard to find a more dedicated cadre of individuals who are not monetarily driven.

As for budgeting and funding I know little about that...

-L.W.

edited - first post too long (long posts are rarely read...this is the basic summary..a 'cliff post' ):)

[TexasVet]

Why does your retired military neighbor (like me)

You began by lambasting the VA for bad care. I stated that was patently untrue. Then it must be good only here because of "pork". Then it must be bad because you (see above quote) don't get it. (Since you are covered by an entirely different program, I'm still trying to figure out your wrath at the VA.)
So I and my fellow VA recipients should lose what we have and go into some NEW government sponsered program. But since those "government programs" are all evil, why should we want to do that? (It would be as illogical as moving to an icebox to live.)
If your care is poor, then fight for better, instead of trying to pull down another working program.

[edamon]

Regarding "low military pay"

Yes it is low.

However, most people are in to learn a skill they can take advantage of in the free market place when they exit the
military.

What would that same skill cost to learn if you went to college
instead? nearly $100,000 in tuition/housing.

Getting paid to learn the skill and some of the benefits lended to service men/women in regards to loans, insurance, etc. I don't think the pay scale is obnoxious.

If you make it a career, you can earn a decent living. However, most don't.

For the VA?

It's a bloated system and it needs to be overhauled completely. Money waste in it's lack of efficently is no different then cutting money from the program. The bottom line is both ways the vets lose.

A friend of the family who served in in vietnam required a hip replacement. After surgery at the local VA hospital he is now confined to a wheel chair for life.

9 hours for a surgery that should take no longer then 4, he suffered a stroke and the hip replacement wasn't a proper fit.
The surgery wasn't performed by the head doctor, instead and intern under the supervision of the head doctor.

The day after the surgery and the stroke whilst under, his leg popped out of socket.. in an attempt to put it back in, they broke his leg.

That is not the medical service any person should receive - vet or not.

The system needs to be rebuilt from the ground up.

-d

[twoblink]

ahh... the VA..

The best reason not to get sick if you are a Vet...:barf:

[Keith]

>>>>I'm beginning to see a theme here... <<<<<

Yeah, it's all a conspiracy by left-wing nuts to take your benefits away...

I started my comments by noting that I have 20 years experience in military medicine. I've worked with all aspects of medical care in all branches of the service, including the VA. I've inspected those facilities, worked with people from those facilities and transferred patients in and out of those facilities. I know what I'm talking about, and the VA is not only the worst care in the entire system, it's also the most expensive and the most fraud ridden.
My hope is not that that somebody "takes your benefits away", it's to move you and all vets into private medicine at no expense to you - to see that you get treated like a congressman rather than a vet!

[Leaky Waders]

Congressmen are treated at the Office of the Attending Physician - a Navy Clinic in the Capital. They consult w/ specialist via Bethesda and Walter Reed as needed.

All persons under tricare do indeed have the option of being seen in the private sector - it's called tricare standard and covers 80% of allowable expenses. Those who choose tricare prime must be seen by prime contractors...many of whom are private sector.

All military and VA hospitals under JCAHO certification...just like private hospitals.

[Keith]

>>>>All persons under tricare do indeed have the option of being seen in the private sector - it's called tricare standard and covers 80% of allowable expenses.<<<<

Nope, it's 75% of "allowable expenses" (AFTER you pay your deductibles and cost shares) when you retire - and all benefits end when you become eligible for Medicare at age 65 - or is it 62?

The allowable expenses work like this in many cases: A doctor might charge you $100 for a service which Tricare assigns a $50 "allowable charge". In that case Tricare pays 75% of $50 ($37.50) while you pay $62.50 - OR, you pay the entire amount if you haven't met your deductible as yet.

Congressmen and Senators ARE eligible for care in military facilities - Bethesda, but they also get a version of the same health plan that all federal employees do. A very good plan that covers nearly ell expenses and which they get to keep for life.

Keith