Sights to compliment a Knoxx SpecOps?


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Pepe Domingo
March 6, 2006, 10:01 PM
I have been shooting a Knoxx Specops stock for a couple of months. It is all that and the cat's meow to boot. However, I need some advice on sights. I currently have just the front bead, but it sits too low to be useful with this stock. To get any kind of sight picture, I need to get too close to the stock and am getting smacked in my upper cheek.

Anyway, I have been overdue for some ghost rings sights for awhile now. I assume that these will bring the aiming plane (is that a word or did I just make it up?) higher? Am I correct in this assumption? Is any particular style (Wilson, Remington, AO, etc.) better than another (in relation to this stock)?

Thanks for the help. BTW, before I got this stock, five rounds of good buck or slugs was too much for my cheek and shoulder with the factory 870 stock. Two days ago I sent fifty down range and am not even tender.

Pepe

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backlash
March 7, 2006, 12:49 PM
I might be looking to get an 870 with a spec ops and some ghost rings in the future. I would be curious to know which ghost rings are preferred and how much they are as well. The ghost rings on my Nova are freakin dope.

ArmedBear
March 7, 2006, 02:29 PM
To get any kind of sight picture, I need to get too close to the stock and am getting smacked in my upper cheek.

Hmmm...

I thought that the Knoxx stock might be too good to be true.:(

A shotgun should be held AGAINST your cheek. That helps you quickly acquire a target both initially and for followup shots. If you're getting smacked, it's too far away, not too close. Perhaps you should try the cheekpiece add-on that some places sell for the M4 stock.

Zak Smith
March 7, 2006, 03:53 PM
The SST-870 does not have this problem since they have a replacement front sight at the proper height.

CaCrusin
March 7, 2006, 08:02 PM
Hmmm...

I thought that the Knoxx stock might be too good to be true.

Talk about skeptical!

If you are experiencing cheek slap, it is because you are too far forward on the stock. That is also the problem with the bead sight. Extend the stock all the way out and then shoot and adjust until the sight picture is correct and the cheek slap is gone. That sweet spot is different for each shooter.

Training and practice is required to be proficient with any firearm and bad habits (crawling up the stock) must be overcome.

Now about cheek weld: It is conventiional wisdom that a solid cheek weld must be maintained at all times when shooting a shotgun. This is a fallacy. The combat shotgun is a pointed weapon at close range and a cheek weld is neither required or beneficial. At longer ranges, a shotgun becomes an aimed weapon and a good cheek weld is appropriate. Using the SpecOps at it's shorter length for close-in pointed use and extending it for longer range aimed shooting is correct usage.

Thanks for listening. your opinion may vary.

CaCrusin :cool:

Pepe Domingo
March 8, 2006, 09:13 AM
Well, the main reason I got the SpecOps (besides recoil reduction) was for the adjustable LOP. You see, I am blessed with very short arms. I am only comfortable with the stock all the way in, or at the most one notch out.

I am quite aware of what proper cheek weld is. However, in order to hunch down enough to get close to a bead sight, my very upper cheek bone must rest against the stock. Regardless of how tight it is welded, I still get a wack. In fact I am still tender from last Saturday.

Anyway, CACrusin, any advice an sights? Extending the stock will not work as I am too short. I need something higher or this is the end of my affair with the shotgun as a defensive tool.

For those of you with normal to long arms, I still believe the SpecOps is the best thing out there. It allows for much more trigger time without pain or flinch.

ArmedBear
March 8, 2006, 11:55 AM
Hmmm...

Two possibilities, then.

One: it doesn't fit you right and it won't (POI is off to the side somewhere).

Two: adjust it for comfort and consistency. Your eyes don't need to be down so low that the bead acts as a rifle sight; you just need to know where the thing will shoot when your head is in a comfortable, consistent position.

You just need to practice and know where your POI is, which will be just over the bead, probably. This is a lot like many familiar pistols shoot: a 6 o'clock hold.

WRT CaCrusn's comments about point shooting... Yes, at close range, you can float your head above the stock and get some semblance of consistency, though nowhere near what you can easily get if you just bring the thing to your cheek, which is quick and repeatable. If you practice, perhaps you can get very consistent with your POI. However, "point shooting" does not use the sights, so adding them might just complicate things. It will certainly slow down your target acquisition compared to practice with the plain barrel.

At longer ranges, yeah, I guess you need sights for a gun that doesn't have a provision for a good cheek weld. How else can you line it up?

Depends what you are doing with the gun.

Pepe Domingo
March 8, 2006, 12:38 PM
I need something more consistent than that. Maybe it is because I am a rifle guy and not a shotgunner, but I am looking for some precision at 50-75 yards with slugs and I need sights for that, or at least a reference bead that I can look down the tube and see.

While I have no doubt that with time I can get mighty good guestimating where my slugs will go, I do not have the luxury of that much range time. Heck, with enough time and ammo, I am sure that i could point shoot a revolver like Bill Jordan, but it isn't going to happen.

Kentucky windage is a dangerous option for me. Give me proper sights and I can hit it.

ArmedBear
March 8, 2006, 01:19 PM
Ah.

75 yards with slugs is basically rifle shooting, not shotgun shooting. And point-shooting slugs at 75 yards would indeed be pretty silly!:)

That gives you a whole list of other options, of course.

If you have the gun set up with AR-style ergonomics, the most appealing way IMHO to have more heads-up shooting with rapid target acquisition would be to finish the job and put on a rifled barrel with integral scope mount and an EOTech, Holosight, or some other heads-up red dot that is favored by the AR carbine guys. Not free, but it would make a nice shooter with the M4 stock and Knoxx recoil system.

With the right slugs, an 870 with a rifled barrel is supposed to be able to beat 2 MOA.

Zak Smith
March 8, 2006, 01:33 PM
AR-15 ergonomics and sight plane--
http://apollo.demigod.org/~zak/DigiCam/SST-870/small/154_5407_img.jpg (http://apollo.demigod.org/~zak/DigiCam/SST-870/?medium=154_5407_img.jpg) [ link to LARGER image ] (http://apollo.demigod.org/~zak/DigiCam/SST-870/?medium=154_5407_img.jpg)
http://apollo.demigod.org/~zak/DigiCam/SST-870/small/157_5735_img.jpg (http://apollo.demigod.org/~zak/DigiCam/SST-870/?medium=157_5735_img.jpg) [ link to LARGER image ] (http://apollo.demigod.org/~zak/DigiCam/SST-870/?medium=157_5735_img.jpg)

Pepe Domingo
March 8, 2006, 01:53 PM
I have looked into the SST before, however it does not offer the recoil reduction of the SpecOps.

I have a hard time putting more than 10 shots of even reduced recoil ammo through a shotgun (normal or AR style stock) without a level of discomfort that discourages me from picking it up again.

I suppose I could get some sort of rail for an Aimpoint, but I did not want to add the weight. With the side saddle, extension and the bigger Surefire forend, I feel that my shotgun is already on the portly side.

Basically, does anybody run a ghost ring with a SpecOps, and if so, is the combination useable with the stock all the way in?

Thanks

ArmedBear
March 8, 2006, 02:11 PM
I suppose I could get some sort of rail for an Aimpoint, but I did not want to add the weight. With the side saddle, extension and the bigger Surefire forend...

LOL

Bix
March 8, 2006, 02:34 PM
CaCrusing -

I respectfully disagree with your contention that:

"at close range and a cheek weld is neither required or beneficial"

At close range (just as at long range) shotguns need to aimed. A shot charge will, in my experience, remain close to bore diamater for several yards after exiting the muzzle of the weapon - this is especially true in the case of reduced recoil loads. The charge is, in effect, a single projectile for some distance. Maximizing terminal effect with this, say, ~1" pattern requires proper placement - which, in turn, requires aiming.

You suggest that when "a shotgun becomes an aimed weapon and a good cheek weld is appropriate". I woud argue that a shotgun - especially one loaded with reduced recoil buckshot - is an aimed weapon at room distances.

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