[YellowLab]

Man.. I am really getting my but kicked. The Loadmaster I have works FINE for large pistol or rifle. When putting .223 through it I can't go 100 cartridges before a primer gets mashed.

I JUST got back a bag of 5 primer sliders today. Wrecked 4 in less than an hour. Wnt over the press with a fine tooth comb and here's a list of parts that are going back:

carrier
draw bolt
ejector
yoke retainer
small primer trough
4 small primer sliders
1 primer punch return spring
.223 die (snapped off decapper pin).

Thats about $50 in parts. Lee has NO clue.. I beg them for help every time I send in parts (bout once a month for the last 4 months... had press for 6 months total).

I am not a mechanical moron... was an Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic for a few years... own my own mill and lathe.. I just can't figure out why small primers are kicking my but.

I am fully prepared for the 'Buy Dillon, don't look back' posts... if I could I would at this point BELIVE ME I WOULD.

[dakotasin]

well...
i'm no fan of lee, and have been burned crispy for that stance on this board in the past. still, i haven't changed my mind on lee.

even w/ lee stuff, you shouldn't have this much trouble... is it something you may be doing?

hope they get everything right for you this time. good luck.

[trickyasafox]

those should all be under warrenty. it should be free for you they warrenty all their stuff unconditionally for 2 years i think. i'd be pissed if i were you. this might sound silly, but do you have the right seater in for small primers? their are two, one for large primers and one for small primers. not sure of the technical name, but it might be part of your problems, trying to use a small primer slider with a large primer seating pin.

edited to add context: i have a pro 1000, and change the primer seater when i change primer sizes. never tried to seat the other with the different punch.

[burrhead]

RCBS

[The Bushmaster]

OK...Where's my blow torch...:D

[HSMITH]

Send the whole dang thing back to them, seriously. Tell them you want it fixed.

Why do you have to send parts back to them? They won't just send out what you need?

[Kamicosmos]

I also had more trouble with small primers vs large on my Loadmaster. Large pistol would load all dang day. Small pistol, constantly flipping upside down, or even sidways! Very hard to tear everything apart with a crushed sideways primer in the works!

I didn't tear up the primer arm thingie very often, but I did crunch 2 or 3 of them over the 2 years I owned my press. I kept both assemblies very clean and topped off with primers. But the small primer assembly just gave me all kinds of trouble.

In fact, the primer problems were one of the top reasons I sold my Loadmaster and went with a RCBS turret press. Although, I pretty much hand prime my cases now.

[YellowLab]

Primer punch is correct size.

I would like to get this solved.. like I said I have no issues with the large primer setup.

I want to send them the parts so they can (I HOPE) at least look at them and see *** is up.

If they just want to play the swap parts and see game fine with me.... another 16 months under warrantee.

I may get a dedicated press for .223, maybee for x-mas.

[xring44]

I bought one of those loadmasters, after hours of continual primer problems, I sent it back to MidWay, they credited my account....I now own a 650 dillon:D

[YellowLab]

After looking at what is going on I think the Lee 'fixed' on problem at the expense of causing another.

The 'nubs' that agitate the primer tray (2 of them) actually shake the whole primer trough. There is not much holding the trough in place... only the shell holder.

The primer trough probibly needs a shim or two under it to give it firm contact with the bottom of the shell plate.

I'll try that when I get all these parts back. :banghead: :banghead:

[YellowLab]

Large primers are great. Small primers, not so much.

I've deduced that many, many progressive owners do sizing and priming off the progressive... no matter who's it is.

I generally shoot to much (500-1K a month) and don't have enough spare time to do off press prep (other than crimp removal an trimming).

[Rottweiler]

Drink the blue kool aid...drink the blue kool aid...drink the blue kool aid

[redneck2]

e-bay is your friend

[Uncle Don]

While my Loadmaster runs flawlessly, I have never tried rifle rounds in it. The new Classic Turret may be an answer if you were looking for a dedicated press. This arrangement works well for me because almost all handgun is done on the progressive and all rifle and bottleneck handgun are done on the Turret. I also like the inexpense of changing calibers. With the higher clearance of the new one, you would not have to disable the auto index and getting 200 - 250 rounds of rifle out of it shouldn't be a problem. Priming is done at the bottom so that issue should go away for you.

If you are looking for a one-stop shop, I would consider the Classic Turret or a Dillon 550. Both basically operate as a single stage but the Dillon doesn't auto index and that is something that is a deal breaker for me. Additionally, I like the quick change and inexpense of changing calibers on the Turret Press, but 550 owners are a pretty loyal bunch. However ,if you do a search, you'll see quite a few threads of people have priming issues with those too.

[YellowLab]

Once I get the parts back I'm gonna fire up the mill and make some changes for reliability of primer feeding... have some ideas that should work quite well.

I cannot understand why I can rip off 1k .30-06, 500 .45ACP and not mash a single primer, but cannot get through 100 .223 before performeing major surgery on the damn thing.

At least I have enough ammo to get through this weekend and the parts get back. Supposed to be 60+ deg this sat. Bowling pins at the range shall witness to the wrath of a frustrated reloader! :evil:

[1911user]

I've deduced that many, many progressive owners do sizing and priming off the progressive... no matter who's it is.


For rifle loading, maybe for some. For pistol loading, I'll bet a lot more do everything on the press at once than those that do sizing and priming off-press. Why get a progressive if you're doing half the work on another machine; especially for pistol ammo?

I understand priming is a big weakness on the Lee progressives, but that's not generally true of other progressive loaders.

[YellowLab]

For pistol ammo, even for small rifle I would say that its all done on a progressive.

But large rifle, with a shoulder or magnum/belted case I would say a more reloaders than you think a using a single stage to size than thier progressive.

[1911user]

That would not surprise me at all since those larger rifle calibers generally aren't loaded in large quantities and if they are then it's probably match ammo and extra steps will be taken off-press.

I think we agree.

[Rockstar]

On another board (and I forget which one) there's a list from Uncle Don of 125 or so steps to take to get your Loadmaster running smoothly.

On the other hand, Mike Dillon says just bolt that Dillon to the bench and start cranking 'em out! :evil:*














*It's a joke, U.D.!!!! I realize there are probably only 25 or so steps on your list.

[YellowLab]

I found them.. there is like 10.

I'm gonna steal them and post on my site so the search engines can pick them up and help out more Loadmaster users.

Thanks Unca' Don!

[Rockstar]

Thanks for the correction. Good luck with your Loadmasters!

[loadedround]

Lee makes fine cheap single station presses but when it comes to making progressive presses they are all POS! You have a fine boat anchor now, get yourself a Dillon and enjoy your hobby, not cuss it.

[YellowLab]

I'll take $5 in shipping over a $150 per cartridge changover (toolhead, powder measure, cal change kit, dies).

Dillon make good presses. But THEY ALL MAKE THE SAME QUALITY AMMO :neener: :neener: :neener: :neener: :neener: :neener: :neener: :neener:

[loadedround]

YellowLab: You are certainly 100% correct, all Dillon presses make the same quality ammo. You must own one to know this one basic fact!:fire:

[Uncle Don]

Why does it anger you so much that someone makes a choice other than Dillon? The fact that Yellowlab is having issues right now doesn't mean the press isn't any good. Do I really need to keep track of all the threads in which Dillon owners are having trouble with something? I read about charge bars, priming systems that are stuck and dirty, powder measures that don't measure correctly, etc. What I don't do is jump into such threads and make the person feel worse - I'd rather let people that know the press help them out. Why is that such an issue with some Dillon owners if someone is having an issue with a Lee press?

It's interesting that many Dillon owners think that some Lee owners are being contentious when they defend themselves against such attacks. Why is this a big deal to you? If you have a 550, there is no way you can keep up with my Loadmaster, even if I disable the case feeder. If I enable it, I'll run with a 650 for quality and quantity. To you, those are blashphemous statements, even though they are true. I don't have anything against Dillon even though I don't care to own one, why can't some Dillon owners take the same road. If it comes from not being able to run a Loadmaster before you switched, you need to look in the mirror for the problem even though no one wants to admit that.

[Rockstar]

Uncle Don: Your obsessive behavior can be treated. Paranoia isn't necessarily terminal. Nobody's getting angry but you.

[Uncle Don]

I'm not upset at all and really coudn't care less - just pointing out the obvious and if you don't belive it, do a search. I still pose the question however, why the necessity to jump into a thread merely to make fun of someone elses choice simply because it isn't yours? I've run a Dillon that a friend owns and don't understand the hype - but I don't find the need to trash it.

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

I don't have a dog in this hunt, as I don't own either a Lee Progressive (Either a Pro 1000 or a Loadmaster), a Dillon semi-automated turret (550) or a Dillon progressive (650). I agree with Uncle Don related to his comments about the Dillon owners bashing other presses and about his comments that Dillons have problems of their own.

What I do not see is the Dillon owners having zero problems out of their high priced presses and I do see many folks who had problems with their (put the press they bashed here) and are now having problems with their Dillons. Of course, since they now have "the press every one should have" they don't care bash it, after spending all that money on it.

Dillon makes good equipment. I think I will eventually own a couple of their pistol resizing dies and maybe another specialty item or two. But they are expensive and like high priced rifles getting outshot but some fella with a 100 plus year old milsurp, it ain't the gun, it's the man behind the gun.......or the man pulling the handle on the press.

YellowDog,

Hang in there buddy. You'll get this press figured out and when you do, you'll have the satisfaction of having stuck with it and fixed it. I hear those things load some mighty fine ammo pretty fast when they're set up right. I own a Hornady Lock N Load I'm very happy with, but I'm not gonna bash your choice. I too had issues with mine when I first got it. I figured them out or Hornady upgraded the press and the upgrade solved the problem. That's all part of any machinery. Now my press reloads components faster than I can shoot them up or afford to buy them. Maybe I shoulda bought a Lee classic turret press. Wait a second, I think I am planning to do so. :cool:

[Rockstar]

DaveinFloweryBranch: Go pull the handle a few times on both a Dillon press and a Loadmaster. Take a close look at the mechanics of both. Substitute Hornady, RCBS, just about any other brand for "Dillon". Then judge for yourself about quality of design and function. Previous sentence not too clear: Point is that they'll all be superior to the Loadmaster.

[Uncle Don]

Which is your opinion. I'm guessing I must be part of an exclusive club as I can read directions and set up a press to operate without any problem. I didn't have any need to get rid of something that works as advertised and does it at less than a third of the cost.

Rockstar: Did you have one and couldn't get it to run or are you simply a mouthpiece for othes? I tell you what, send me your email and I'll send you a video of the press working with and without a casefeeder. Then, you send me one back that shows you can keep up. I hate to break it to you but the 550 is nothing more than a turret press - it's just that the turret is on the bottom.

Like I said, I really couldn't care less but in my opinion, Mike Dillon realized that 90% of the progressive loading crowd are idiots. He built a press that overcomes ham handed idiocy and he should be commended for it. On his 550 he probably said, I'll remove the casefeeder because people can't run them anyway, I'll remove auto indexing because most can't get that to work either. I'll have it prime on the bottom because most people can't set dies and by doing this, they don't have to worry about an adjustable feature. Then, I'll charge three times what it costs me to make (It's still aluminum) it because they'll still screw it up and then they will build a monument to me because I send them free parts that they break through their own fault. If they have to break parts that equal the value of another press, his profit is probably only about 30% or so. He banks on those customers who actually know what they are doing to offset those who don't. There is no doubt in my mind that those numbers are crunched at Dillon and that they play the averages. The more people that write about the fantastic no BS warranty that they continue to take advantage of, I just smile because they just outed themselves as part of the crowd I described.

Lee on the other hand makes the incorrect assumption that progressive loaders are fairly bright bunch and can set things up properly. He was wrong about that. Those that can run them love them, those that can't give up and buy a press that enables thier degree of capability to operate them.

[YellowLab]

I gave up trying to justify owning the press I own. Its like any other debate (9mm vs .45, .223 vs .308, ford vs chevy) there is no right answer, only opinions.

My press works fine... I am not setting it up right, with help I will figure it out.

If you think your press makes better ammo than my press... well, then OK. Its not true, but you can think what you like.... I don;t care to change minds.

Its like going to a gym... I wear baggy sweats and an old Ozzy tee shirt. EVERYONE else wears some sort of leotard or $100 outfit. I lift the same weights, ride the same bike... but they probibly think that they are getting a better workout. Exact same thing with my press.

[YellowLab]

BTW This weekend I'll be dumping 1000rds of .30-06 out my 1919a6... all that crappy ammo I made with my loadmaster cannot be allowed to live!

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

[stiles]

Uncle Don
Like I said, I really couldn't care less but in my opinion, Mike Dillon realized that 90% of the progressive loading crowd are idiots. He built a press that overcomes ham handed idiocy and he should be commended for it. On his 550 he probably said, I'll remove the casefeeder because people can't run them anyway, I'll remove auto indexing because most can't get that to work either. I'll have it prime on the bottom because most people can't set dies and by doing this, they don't have to worry about an adjustable feature. Then, I'll charge three times what it costs me to make (It's still aluminum) it because they'll still screw it up and then they will build a monument to me because I send them free parts that they break through their own fault. If they have to break parts that equal the value of another press, his profit is probably only about 30% or so. He banks on those customers who actually know what they are doing to offset those who don't. There is no doubt in my mind that those numbers are crunched at Dillon and that they play the averages. The more people that write about the fantastic no BS warranty that they continue to take advantage of, I just smile because they just outed themselves as part of the crowd I described.

Why do you assume the only Dillon press that anybody owns is a 550. Mike Dillon entered the market by offering a Star reloader upgrade kit, followed by the RL-1000 and the RL-1050. I own a loaded XL650 and I love it but if I get another progressive press it will be a super 1050 which is more complex than anything Lee makes and they run even in commercial environments.

As far as the warranty goes what happens if YellowLab doesn't get the small primer system running and his warranty goes out? What exactly is the value of a machine that doesn't work and the company that sold it won't stand behind it?

The no BS warranty is nice but Dillon's technical support team which is top notch. I personally haven't had the need but I know someone that had problem with the primers feeding in a new Super 1050 and Dillon support stayed on the phone with him for hours until the problem was figured out and then overnighted the parts that were wrong. I've never heard of any comparable story coming from Lee's support, but I have herd good things about RCBS, and Hornady's tech support. I wonder why.

That's real classy calling 90% of the progressive reloading crowd idiots, does that make you feel better about yourself and your superior intellect?

Uncle Don
Lee on the other hand makes the incorrect assumption that progressive loaders are fairly bright bunch and can set things up properly. He was wrong about that. Those that can run them love them, those that can't give up and buy a press that enables thier degree of capability to operate them.


Actually if you read Lee's self promotional book, errrr loading manual you'll see Lee believes that people don't really want quality tools that are overbuilt to last a lifetime but instead want something cheap so that when it breaks they can just though it away and buy a new one. Not my words I'm just paraphrasing Mr. Lee.

Yes I do understand that many Lee presses do run but I also understand that Lee progressive presses have more than their share of problems. Yes I do not own a Lee progressive press but I do know people who do own Lee presses among other brands.

[Don't Tread On Me]

Friends don't let friends load with Lee.




jk. :neener:



I use Lee stuff with excellent results.

[Uncle Don]

As far as the warranty goes what happens if YellowLab doesn't get the small primer system running and his warranty goes out? What exactly is the value of a machine that doesn't work and the company that sold it won't stand behind it?

The no BS warranty is nice but Dillon's technical support team which is top notch. I personally haven't had the need but I know someone that had problem with the primers feeding in a new Super 1050 and Dillon support stayed on the phone with him for hours until the problem was figured out and then overnighted the parts that were wrong. I've never heard of any comparable story coming from Lee's support, but I have herd good things about RCBS, and Hornady's tech support. I wonder why.

That's real classy calling 90% of the progressive reloading crowd idiots, does that make you feel better about yourself and your superior intellect?

First, I can guarantee you that if Yellow Labs press goes out of warranty, Lee will stand behind it. Why people assume that this isn't the case, I don't know - if you can give me an example of them saying "sorry, it's out of warranty", it would be news to me. How do they know how long he had it? - Geez.

Stayed on the phone with him for hours huh - it goes to further my point. If you have to stay on the phone for "hours" over a primer system, there is a weak link somewhere - you figure out where. I'm doubting the parts were wrong - it's more like they were destroyed, brokern or otherwise damaged and the parts were sent out to him - just like Lee does. If you've never heard of good stories of Lee support - you're not reading very many threads. I've never heard of them actually charging someone 1/2 new price if a press was sent to them regardles of age.

With all the people saying what they do about Lee and Lee owners, I just decided to return the favor - and it raises someones dander. It may not be classy, but it's no different than the baseless claims made by some that have no clue what they are doing. What a hypocrite. As to my feeling of superior intellect - no, but I can read and follow directions and it apparantly causes you to be ticked off about it. It is people such as yourself that evidently feel superior just because your press is blue and you make that well known. I stand by my asserstion that Dillon is a brilliant marketer and over engineers product trying to stay ahead of the majority of people who continue to break stuff and then hold someone else responsible. He has turned that problem around and capitalized on it and for that I respect him. Someone is paying for it and it's Dillon owners that know what they are doing and don't have to spend "hours" on the phone with tech support.

Remember, Mike Dillon prefers that you continue to tout the warranty and break your presses and brag about it because he makes money at it. America is a great country.


Actually if you read Lee's self promotional book, errrr loading manual you'll see Lee believes that people don't really want quality tools that are overbuilt to last a lifetime but instead want something cheap so that when it breaks they can just though it away and buy a new one. Not my words I'm just paraphrasing Mr. Lee.

Can you give me a page number where it says that? Or are you paraphrasing again? I belive he says that there is no reason to "over-engineer", and I personally think he's wrong and it goes to further my point that he gives too much credit to the average progressive press reloader. Most do in fact need something over-engineerd to overcome operator error; Mike Dillon knows it and came to your rescue. All you have to do is pay for it.

[stiles]

Uncle Don
Stayed on the phone with him for hours huh - it goes to further my point. If you have to stay on the phone for "hours" over a primer system, there is a weak link somewhere - you figure out where. I'm doubting the parts were wrong - it's more like they were destroyed, brokern or otherwise damaged and the parts were sent out to him - just like Lee does. If you've never heard of good stories of Lee support - you're not reading very many threads.

Well you guess like ???? Uncle Don, what happened to your superior reading skills I told you it was wrong parts! It was assembled with a large primer tube and the rest were small primer parts causing every 10th or so primers to flip. I'm not sure who assembled the press if it was Dillon or a dealer local to him. The tech support guy listened to the problem and the owner vent a bit first, followed by some simple trouble shooting. After that didn't prove out it was time to disassemble the entire primer system, yea the guy was disassembling the system while on the phone, not an idea situation but you do what you gotta do. Of course he had to run all the primers out of the system before he disassembled the primer system too. After the primer system gets tore down and they start to identify the parts 1 by 1 thats when the problem was discovered. The tech support dude got the part numbers that were needed and had him check the primer swageing assembly while it was disassembled just to make sure since things were already tore down. After it was all said and done it was just about a 2 hour call.

Now for some Lee support contrast from this thread:

YellowLab
Thats about $50 in parts. Lee has NO clue.. I beg them for help every time I send in parts (bout once a month for the last 4 months... had press for 6 months total).


Where is the great Lee support here? 4 months and nothing, I rather get down to it and take 2 hours out and get the problem fixed right but that doesn't sound like it's happening here now does it? Uncle Don I am curious do you have to send in parts that get broken to get a replacement when you deal with Lee? Has Lee ever overnighted you parts at no cost to you because you had to load ammo ASAP to shoot a match?

Uncle Don
With all the people saying what they do about Lee and Lee owners, I just decided to return the favor - and it raises someones dander. It may not be classy, but it's no different than the baseless claims made by some that have no clue what they are doing. What a hypocrite. As to my feeling of superior intellect - no, but I can read and follow directions and it apparantly causes you to be ticked off about it. It is people such as yourself that evidently feel superior just because your press is blue and you make that well known. I stand by my asserstion that Dillon is a brilliant marketer and over engineers product trying to stay ahead of the majority of people who continue to break stuff and then hold someone else responsible. He has turned that problem around and capitalized on it and for that I respect him. Someone is paying for it and it's Dillon owners that know what they are doing and don't have to spend "hours" on the phone with tech support.

I have never said 1 negative thing about Lee progressive press owner, quit putting words into my mouth. You put yourself up on this pedestal because you can "read directions" but if you read into this the only person that should be offended is YellowLab cause he is obviously too stupid to "read directions" and make his Lee small primer system work. He's the one with problems getting his press to run not me. And no I don't think I'm superior because I have a Dillon press, but I'm not the one chastising everybody that can't make a Lee press run, you are. Way to show them current and former Lee press owners how good you are!!!!

[red]

I had a similar problem. Make sure there is absolutely no wiggle to the press or the bench.

Use a smooth touch operating the machine.

This shouldn't turn into a Lee bashing thread when someone needs a hand getting his press to work!

red

[Uncle Don]

Yellowlab has punched out several thousand rounds without issue. He is having a problem now and to my knowledge, Lee is standing behind it. No, I haven't had to send in any parts because after countless thousands of rounds, I haven't hand to ask for a replacement on anything. I've ruined one single $1.00 part and have NEVER made a good attempt at cleaning the priming system. As to the directions - no, I don't think that puts me in a special class, it makes me normal. However, even with videos, directions, "expert" phone support and no BS warranty, many of you still manage to break parts that amaze me.

I read the bashing all the time and most of the time I stay silent. What I find interesting is that when I speak up, I'm accused of having the attitidue that was presented by someone else in the first place. Apparantly, it's fine to bash a Lee product but it's somehow sacreligious to even defend let alone give a taste of someone's own medicine.

The people I'm referring to about not being able to run a Lee Loadmaster are those who bash it and have switched because they couldn't make it run, and you know it. Yellowlab is frustrated right now but he'll work through it. BTW - what is your experience with the Loadmaster? To be honest, I rarely look for a fight, but when I see the comments I read, I defend - why is that difficult to belive and why is it hard for you to understand? I'm simply giving a taste of peoples own medicine. It continues to surpsise me that some Dillon owners have no concept of how they come across to others but are somehow surprised and defensive when it's pointed out.

Lastly - I still doubt that Dillon somehow built the press with the "wrong" parts but even if they did - two hours still means there was definately a weak link somewhere. I'm out! Have a ball.

[Uncle Don]

Hit the button twice - wow, I should have read directions more clearly.

[stiles]

The people I'm referring to about not being able to run a Lee Loadmaster is those who bash it and have switched because they couldn't make it run, and you know it. Yellowlab is frustrated right now but he'll work through it.

First I really do hope Yellowlab get his machine up and running and if I hand any insight to share I would. Now to the point of only insinuating former Lee Loadmasters owners are idiots but current ones having problems are well alright, that's just lame. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, well at least that's how I see it.


To be honest, I rarely look for a fight, but when I see the comments I read, I defend - why is that difficult to belive and why is it hard for you to understand? I'm simply giving a taste of peoples own medicine. It continues to surpsise me that some Dillon owners have no concept of how they come across to others but are somehow surprised and defensive when it's pointed out.

Yes I find it hard to believe any reloader would call 90% of the progressive reloading crowd are idiots. I do see lots of Dillon owners say "buy a Dillon and don't look back, you wont regret it", but that's a far cry from "I can't believe how stupid you were to buy a Lee press" which is something I have never seen any Dillon owner say thank God. That would be a terrible thing to say. I do understand the allure of getting a press that cost less (I came very close to getting a Hornady press but I was buying right when Hornady was changing from the projector to the lock-n-load). I do also know how it feels to regret going the less expensive route and buying twice, it's not fun, no actually it sucks. I wouldn't say anything to put salt in those wounds, but obviously you have no problems doing just that.

Show me where someone in this thread called a Lee press owner an idiot (other than yourself), to be honest I don't know what your defending. Why do you feel so compelled to defend a reloading machine? If it's such a great machine it's reputation should be just as great. I really don't find that reloaders are in general are full of you know what and will share their experiences honestly. Of course you'll have someone that has an ax to grind but when you see a trend there is probably a reason that trend exist.


Lastly - I still doubt that Dillon somehow built the press with the "wrong" parts but even if they did - two hours still means there was definately a weak link somewhere. I'm out! Have a ball.

Nice round about way of calling me a lier, your so cool Uncle Don, can I be your friend? As far as the "week link" comment, how many Loadmasters have been used by commercial reloaders, this was a super 1050, yes you can load 100,000+ rounds a month on one and it will keep running, long as it's set up right of course ;) How many rounds have you loaded on your loadmaster? I only have ~20,000 loaded on my 650 :( I need to shoot more.

[HSMITH]

I have used a Loadmaster quite a bit, set one up (used) and got it running. Lee tech support wasn't worth the dial time, ended up just winging it. What the heck, the press with case and bullet feeders cost me $80 and came with 3 powder measures :what: When set up RIGHT they will load a TON of ammo in a real hurry, at least as fast as a Dillon 650. What irked me, and sent it down the road, is the fact that it needs 'tuning' now and then to stay working. Running beautifully, POUNDING out the ammo at a furious clip, then WHAM all comes to a screeching halt due to primer feed problems. Twiddle and tweak, get it going again and pound out a hundred or two and WHAM, all is in the crapper again.

Learning how many bullets you can have in the feeder tube, switching to a new bullet and learning how many of them will work, the powder measures just plain suck (sorry, but that is how I see it) and constant primer feed problems just took the luster out of the Loadmaster. I sold it to a friend with a 100% money back guarantee, told him EXACTLY what I thought of it and he still wanted to try it. This guy is a MASTER mechanic and a super sharp guy all around. He likes the machine, complains a little here and there about the primer feed and the bullet feed but won't take my $80. He loads on a lot more relaxed schedule than I do, and is willing to twiddle and tinker a bit here and there. Best $80 he has spent on guns according to him, and I suspect Uncle Don and he have a lot in common.

Myself, I run hot and heavy. I have a young family, limited reloading time and the ONLY reason I reload is to support my shooting habit. If I could afford to buy my ammo I would not reload. I absolutely NEED a press that I can walk up to and crank out a couple hundred rounds without ANY hassles at all. I absolutely NEED a press that I can yank 40 out of and be loading 45 in 3 minutes.

I had a Dillon 550B, it is dead solid reliable and that means more to me than the nearly double production rate of the Loadmaster. The Loadmaster came after the Dillon, was a gamble to up my production rate/reduce loading time. When the Loadmaster ran it was REALLY fast and made good ammo, but it would not stay running without tinkering.

The Loadmaster is 'nearly there'. If Lee ever finishes the Loadmaster they will absolutely CRUSH Dillon progressive sales. It doesn't need a lot to be 'there', but it is enough that a lot of guys have a bitter taste in their mouth when it comes up.

Sorry for the long story, just a bit of where I was and where I am coming from.

[YellowLab]

http://www.42gpw.com/reloadingbench/1919loadout.jpg

Thats 1000 rounds (1250 if you count the sting of blanks I made) off my loadmaster and I never stopped excpet for powder and primer refills. And that is not including the 750 .45ACP I've got loaded up for my 1918 Colt 1911.

I really don't know what you people are trying to prove.... for the cost of your blue cool aid I bought that gun..... and for the cost of a few 'quick change kits' I bought my ENTIRE setup.

The Lee Loadmaster is an outstanding value. It makes accurate bullets, in BULK.

I am doing something wrong with the .223 ammo.. I know I am. It sucks that I beat up the press and break stuff... but hey, stuff happens, I learn, and life goes on.

I'll let you know how the shoot a thon turns out.

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

Rockstar,

I owned a 550 I sold to a buddy of mine because it was nothing more than a jazzed up and very overpriced turret press. My best buddy has a 650 and I've used it. It's no faster than my Hornady Lock N Load and is slower and way more expensive to change calibers.

Another buddy owns a Loadmaster. Guess what? He takes his time, sets the thing up and it runs and runs, never hangs up. Guess Uncle Don is right. That thing is fast as all get out too at a very reasonable price.

Right now, I'm considering adding a Lee classic turret press to my press lineup to load my milsurp rifle stuff. From what I'm reading and hearing (And I've been asking a lot of questions on a couple boards, plus emails and pm's.), it's pretty darn close the the Dillon 550 turret in speed and a heckuva lot less in cost. I'll likely buy one soon.

Again, I'll repeat, I don't have a dog in this hunt, but Uncle Don and Yellowlab are right. If you blue kool-aid guys can't take the heat and help fix the broken machinery, stay the heck outta the kitchen and have the manners to not take pot shots at other people's equipment. Because frankly, after comparing my Lee Classic Cast press is doing to RCBS's Rock Chucker, I'm sure the Rock chucker business ain't what it used to be. (I owned a Rock Chucker before I bought my Lee Classic cast press. Guess which one I sold after owning both and deciding I'd rather have one single stage and turret press?) Think on it, because the way things are going, Lee may very well modify the Loadmaster to the point any bonehead can load on it. If they do, Dillon's very outdated designs are going to be sucking wind.:uhoh:

[stiles]

Dave can I ask you a few things about your Hornady press without offending you too terribly? You say it's faster to do caliber conversions, can you expand on how it's faster? I cut my teeth loading on a friends Projector and the only thing I can figure out is you must save time when your changing priming systems. The lock-n-load system is very neat but it's not faster, the problem I would have with that is organization and only having two hands, but that's me (maybe you have 2 hands too but if it's a faster system for you you probably have more than 2 :eek: ). Changing the shell plate from what I remember is the same on the 650 v the Hornady. I know the Lock-n-load had a primer system revision and I don't remember much about the Projector primer system after all it was back in '95, is this where you get your faster caliber changes? I'm spoiled cause I have both the large and small primer assemblies for my 650, but my guess it's the primer seater. The little parts for the case feeder and the station 1 locater are simple enough to change, I can't see that being the advantage. Spill the beans already! Since your buddy has a 650 show him this link (http://www.nfatoys.com/dillon/), it will help him save money on conversion kits by letting him buy just what parts he needs, it's a very cool utility for 650 owners.

The other question I have about the Hornady press has to do with the crimp die and the ejector spring interfering with non Hornady crimp dies. Has this been a problem for you? If so have you found a workaround other than grinding the crimp dies? I would really like a picture of a modified ejector spring for reference if somebody has one so I can share it with other Hornady owners, it is after all the machine I recommend if the 1050 or 650 are too pricey.

I like the Hornady press and if I didn't get the 650 I would have gotten the early Lock-n-load. The reason I went with the Dillon was because I liked that the Dillon did belling in the powder drop stage and I like the removable tool head design better than the individual lock-n-load thing. I know Hornady is redesigning the case activated powder drop system right now, who knows they may be adding powder drop though a belling expander, if so I wonder if Lee's patent ran out or they decided to pay royalties. That could be neat for Hornady owners, no more Lyman belling expander tricks needed if that is the change. For the record I didn't buy the Dillon because I disliked the Hornady, but more because I like the Dillon more than I like the Hornady :)

Dave why do you tell people not to take pop shots at other peoples equipment and then you turn right around and do just what you told everybody else not to do? Old designs usually stick around in the market place because they are good :p . Old designs that dominate the market place do so because they are great! If you don't think that Dillon dominates the progressive market you may be shocked to know that 98% of all USPSA competitors polled used Dillon machines (the stat is from Front Sight mag).

How are you liking the cast classic press, does it catch all the primers like it should in it's primer tube setup? I have a rock chuncker which cost me a grand total of $0 but getting primers and the muck everywhere sucks. When you had them side by side how was the effort on FL sizing a bottle neck cartage?

I don't get the whole 550 is just a turret press rant but your kidding yourself if you think a real turret press is almost as fast as a manual indexing progressive press. I have no interest in a manual indexing progressive press what so ever and have never suggested to anyone to buy one I understand that, but a single ram turret press is what it is. That being said it doesn't make a turret press a bad tool but for me I'd only be interested in one for case forming wildcats which I don't do a lot of (I only fire form a 30'06 ackley improved and it aint even my rifle, errrrr).

And Dave while I haven't helped fix the Lee priming problem the only person that has given a go at it is trickyasafox, not you or Uncle Don have taken a stab at helping either. Pot, kettle and black comes to mind ATM. Didn't think anybody would notice that did ya ;)

[YellowLab]

' 98% of all USPSA competitors polled used Dillon'

Its called 'keeping up with the jonese'. :D

I wonder if they get discounts like in every other sport that a manufacturer wants to get market share in.

Plus NO ONE, not after the all the cool aid they drank, can still make the claim that the ammo off a Dillon is *BETTER* than an ammo off press X. Not even Dillon makes that claim.

I'm still waiting for a video of someone actaully making the rated number of rounds off a 650 (like 700 rounds an hour?) One every 4 seconds.

Like 'Jerry' said "SHOW ME THE VIDEO!!!!!!!"

[Uncle Don]

And Dave while I haven't helped fix the Lee priming problem the only person that has given a go at it is trickyasafox, not you or Uncle Don have taken a stab at helping either. Pot, kettle and black comes to mind ATM. Didn't think anybody would notice that did ya

Actually I have offered - just did it without the background noise. I'm with Yellowlab on the "Show me". My offer stands - I'll send you a video of my press operating at a capability rate of 1000 rounds an hour (WITHOUT A CASEFEEDER) . You in turn practice up and then send me one showing the same thing or one that surpasses it. Even if you can, and I don't think you can - you are not going to exceed by enough to justify three or four times the price. When the casefeeder is attached, my throughput then kicks into high gear and I have a video of that too. Let's exchange, shall we?

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

stiles,

Ah, a Dillon owner that wants to see what's down the rabbit hole. Be careful, you're mind is made up, are you sure you want to be confused with facts?

"Dave can I ask you a few things about your Hornady press without offending you too terribly? You say it's faster to do caliber conversions, can you expand on how it's faster?"

You own a Dillon, so you don't need to be told how it's done. Here's a complete caliber change, including primer size change for a Hornady. This is from .45ACP to 9MM. This is moving slowly and methodically, as I'm not a hurry kind of guy. Steps 1 through 5 and 10 I would do with any press I owned, so time for them would be the same. I only own one powder measure, so I don't change it. I would only own one powder measure with a Dillon, so I wouldn't change it either. In both cases, one would have to empty the powder and clean the measure out before inserting new powder. At least that's my preferred habit, others may differ.


1. Pull out reloading manual. Check recorded load "set up" for the cartridge I want.
2. Lay out tools, shellplate, primer punch and die set, plus the empty box for the new die set. Load new caliber primers into feeding tubes.
3. Remove original caliber bins and empty into storage containers.
4. Lay out brass and bullets in AKRO bins with spares.
5. Set up powder scale to check powder weight.
6. Break shellplate locking nut loose with wrench, spin out with fingers, remove original shellplate, case retainer spring and remove original primer punch - 20 seconds - (Note: if you can't do this in this time, you're either deliberately going slower than me, because I'm a turtle or you're a mechanical klutz.)
7. Install next primer punch, place shellplate on sub plate, install locking nut and flip case retaining spring into postion - 20 seconds.
8. Swap out the die set, twist and click out, then twist and click in - 15 seconds. (Note: If one had additional powder measures set up for each caliber, one could simply swap it out the same as the dies. Add one or two more seconds to time totals. BTW, I'm being conservative with the time changeover takes, not exaggerating.)
9. Swap powder measure insert for small pistol insert and adjust setting using note from Loading Notebook - 10 seconds.
10. Load powder, then check powder dump setting by dumping three powder dumps and measuring fourth. Make any minor adjustment needed. (Note: I did this when I owned my Dillon as well, so time would be about the same.)
11. Swap primer feeder tube - pull out original tube and drop in new tube. 2 seconds.
12. Install primers from loading tube into feeding tube - 2 seconds.

Well, let's see, if my math is right, that adds up to about 69 seconds or 1 minute, 9 seconds. Of course, I coulda missed a second or two. hmmm....

"I cut my teeth loading on a friends Projector and the only thing I can figure out is you must save time when your changing priming systems."

It's nice you "cut your teeth" on a Projector, but a Projector isn't a Lock N Load. It looks similar, but it definately isn't a Lock N Load. Those Lock and Load bushings ARE GENUINELY faster. I KNOW, because I OWNED a Dillon, remember?

"The lock-n-load system is very neat but it's not faster, the problem I would have with that is organization and only having two hands, but that's me (maybe you have 2 hands too but if it's a faster system for you you probably have more than 2 )." Changing the shell plate from what I remember is the same on the 650 v the Hornady."

I'm not going to tell you that you're a mechanical klutz. Again, a Projector isn't a Lock N Load. It's a very different press, though it looks the same.

"I know the Lock-n-load had a primer system revision and I don't remember much about the Projector primer system after all it was back in '95, is this where you get your faster caliber changes?"

Dunno, you were the one that "cut your teeth" on the Projector, not I.

"I'm spoiled cause I have both the large and small primer assemblies for my 650, but my guess it's the primer seater."

You mean you have to change out an "assembly" to change between large and small primers? Wow, I just gotta change a cheap assed aluminum tube that isn't even locked down to anything. I just pull it out and drop another one in it's place.

"The little parts for the case feeder and the station 1 locater are simple enough to change, I can't see that being the advantage."

What little parts for the case feeder? What station 1 locator parts?

"Spill the beans already!"

Nope, that'd make a damn mess. I like things neat and orderly.

"Since your buddy has a 650 show him this link, it will help him save money on conversion kits by letting him buy just what parts he needs, it's a very cool utility for 650 owners."

Oh...that's how you save money with Dillon caliber changes. Ya gotta cut corners, I get it now. I'll check the link out and see what it costs that way and I'll pass the link onto my buddy. Yes, I'm busting your balls, just like I bust his.
To not be an total horse's rear, he busted my balls during the Hornady upgrades to the shellplates and primer systems. But now they're done and past history, he's hating it.:neener:I got all my parts free, just like he does with his Dillon, except with mine, most stuff is steel or aluminum and no "small" parts.

I should note with the Hornady, anything you buy related to a caliber change is made of steel. Once you buy the shellplate #1 (.45ACP, 30.06 and similar bases) and the one for .223, you cover most of the calibers. I only needed 7 total to cover most all the calibers I could ever dream of load. Bushings coming cheap in the ten pack. I guess you could add a powder measure or two, which ain't cheap.

"The other question I have about the Hornady press has to do with the crimp die and the ejector spring interfering with non Hornady crimp dies. Has this been a problem for you?"

My 9MM die set is Lee and I use the FCD unmodified, if that's what you're asking.

"If so have you found a workaround other than grinding the crimp dies?

Yes, takes a couple of minutes to do. Just bend a "U-shaped" bend in the ejector spring towards the rear of the press. Bend in two places to form the "U." 1. Bend once close to where the ejector spring wire is located and 2. bend close near where the ejector spring touches has the bend that goes into it's retainer above the shellplate. Measure the die intrusion into the wire and use this distance and add a couple thousandths to get your bend radius. You can use appropriate sized drill rod (It's nice and stiff.) to make the bend radius. When you're done, polish the ejector spring rod with sandpaper, then green scrubby pad to insure smooth ejection.

"I would really like a picture of a modified ejector spring for reference if somebody has one so I can share it with other Hornady owners, it is after all the machine I recommend if the 1050 or 650 are too pricey."

I apologize, but I suck at posting pictures on the internet. I suspect the description above should be adequate for someone that owns the press. It's a simple mod and Hornady could be making these springs like this, but they're being turds and not helping Lee. Maybe because it's the competition. Hornady crimp dies clear. Not sure about Dillon dies, they may also clear.

"I like the Hornady press and if I didn't get the 650 I would have gotten the early Lock-n-load. The reason I went with the Dillon was because I liked that the Dillon did belling in the powder drop stage and I like the removable tool head design better than the individual lock-n-load thing."

A personal preference thing. I know, having owned a 550, I would never advise anyone to get a 550 over the Hornady. I also would concur it's 6 one way, half a dozen the other related to satisfaction with the Lock N Load vs. the Dillon 650.

"I know Hornady is redesigning the case activated powder drop system right now, who knows they may be adding powder drop though a belling expander, if so I wonder if Lee's patent ran out or they decided to pay royalties."

The new case activated powder drop is out the middle of this month. MidwayUSA is already displaying prices ($45.99) for it. It fits the original Lock N Load powder measure, has a slightly different operating mechanism and has belling expander inserts one can buy ($7.99 each) in most all popular pistol calibers. I Dunno about the Lee Patent, is that way Dillon presses are so expensive? Having to pay royalties to Lee for using so many Lee design patents?

"That could be neat for Hornady owners, no more Lyman belling expander tricks needed if that is the change."

Tricks? That was a cheap (The price of one Lyman die set.) and easy mod. And I know Dillon owners mod their presses, because my buddies that own Dillons have modified their presses. Is it only a modification if it's on a Dillon press and it's a "trick" if it's done on "non-blue" presses?

"For the record I didn't buy the Dillon because I disliked the Hornady, but more because I like the Dillon more than I like the Hornady."

It's ok, we know you drank the blue kool-aid and are comforted by the soothing blue color of the press any time you realize you don't have that other milsurp you wanted because you spent the money on the Dillon.:D

"Dave why do you tell people not to take pop shots at other peoples equipment and then you turn right around and do just what you told everybody else not to do? Old designs usually stick around in the market place because they are good . Old designs that dominate the market place do so because they are great!"

I'm not taking pot shots. I said what I know to the the truth about those presses. I didn't say anything I think is negative about Dillon presses. Facts aren't negative, they're just facts and unlike you blue kool-aid drinkers, I didn't tell him to solve his problems by throwing money at it. (aka give more money to Mike Dillon to support his machine gun habit.) And Dillon designs have been good ones, but they are getting dated and could be improved. Both my pals think their powder measures leave something to be desired and bitch about them. Old designs are great, until they get surpassed by new, better, more efficient to manufacture and less expensive designs.

"If you don't think that Dillon dominates the progressive market you may be shocked to know that 98% of all USPSA competitors polled used Dillon machines (the stat is from Front Sight mag)."

Big whoops. This same crowd (I know, I'm a gunsmith and I work on their guns.) pisses off more money on gadjet guns trying to win than one can shake a stick at. Most of them don't. Win, that is. I see a lot of guys paying high prices for various guns, then they end up bringing them to me to fix some issue or another. I see this REGULARLY. I also know of other firearms that are as good and most cases way better than the ones they spend their money on, but the snob factor won't let them buy the less expensive gun, because they wanna feel "secure" emotionally in their purchase and get oohs and ahhs at the range.:rolleyes:

"How are you liking the cast classic press, does it catch all the primers like it should in it's primer tube setup?"

It's great - has a hole right down the middle of the ram and a tube that you can use to feed the spend primers through a hole in your bench to a trash can or bucket below.

"I have a rock chuncker which cost me a grand total of $0 but getting primers and the muck everywhere sucks."

Had a used one too, got rid of it after using it and the LEE side by side for a few months. A perfect example of a great old design being eclipsed by a new , more efficient design.

"When you had them side by side how was the effort on FL sizing a bottle neck cartage?"

The Lee linkage is very similar to the RCBS Junior press linkage and is very efficient. It's hard to say, but the Lee may have even been less effort than the RCBS.

"I don't get the whole 550 is just a turret press rant but your kidding yourself if you think a real turret press is almost as fast as a manual indexing progressive press.

If it isn't auto indexing, have the capability for case activated powder dumps, an automated powder feed, auto eject and the ability to add a case feeder, I don't consider it a progressive press, because basically, it isn't one. If you wanna fully understand my thinking, look at what the 550 is based on - the AT500 TURRET press. So basically, it's a "jazzed up" turret press. That's reality.

""I have no interest in a manual indexing progressive press what so ever and have never suggested to anyone to buy one I understand that, but a single ram turret press is what it is."

I assume you're talking about the LEE classic cast turret press. But you should realize that press has an auto indexing turret. And wether your auto index the turret or the shellplate, the automation is there. The Lee also has automatic powder dump and a fairly quick manually operated primer feed system. I would guess it's probably capable of 300 rounds per hour if the guy works at it a little bit. Most 550 owner really aren't doing any better speed wise and the LEE classic turret press fully set up is less than 200 bucks, including dies. Hell, at that price difference, the two presses shouldn't even be comparable or close to comparable output wise. Another example of new designs being more price efficient. If I were looking at the 550 because I didn't need high output, I'd look hard at the Lee classic cast turret as well and spend that extra money on loading components.

"That being said it doesn't make a turret press a bad tool but for me I'd only be interested in one for case forming wildcats which I don't do a lot of (I only fire form a 30'06 ackley improved and it aint even my rifle, errrrr)."

Hmm, you might be a candidate for the LEE for such purposes, it's a cast iron press with an excellent linkage design, the same one that's on the classic cast single stage and has the nice spent primer dispense as well. I'm buying one for loading milsurp rifle.

"And Dave while I haven't helped fix the Lee priming problem the only person that has given a go at it is trickyasafox, not you or Uncle Don have taken a stab at helping either. Pot, kettle and black comes to mind ATM. Didn't think anybody would notice that did ya"

No, I couldn't help him or I would have. But I did defend him and his press, along with offering him encouragement, which is what YOU DILLON KOOL-AID DRINKERS DID NOT DO, which is WHY I posted. You guys just attacked his press and did the "buy dillon" kool-aid rant.

One last point and this is the bottom line. You Dillon owners need to learn to RESPECT the choices of others if they didn't choice Dillon.

[Bronson7]

For the guys that are saying the Dillon 550 is just a glorified turret press: BALDERDASH! A completed round with every stroke of the handle is not a turret press. No way will I ever believe a turret is as fast as a 550. The Dillon 550 CAN be used though, in turret mode if desired. You're talking apples and oranges.
Bronson7

[trickyasafox]

I have a dream.. . .a dream that someday loaders will unite under one common goal, a dream where blue and red loaders stand side by side. I dream of equality. . . .
:D

[Bronson7]

Tricky, you are absolutely correct. Who gives a rat's butt what you re-load on as long as you're re-loading. That's what counts. It's the old Chevy, Ford, Harley, Honda thing. No one wins in the end and you just walk away feeling bad.
Bronson7

[stiles]

It's nice you "cut your teeth" on a Projector, but a Projector isn't a Lock N Load. It looks similar, but it definately isn't a Lock N Load. Those Lock and Load bushings ARE GENUINELY faster. I KNOW, because I OWNED a Dillon, remember?

I'm not going to tell you that you're a mechanical klutz. Again, a Projector isn't a Lock N Load. It's a very different press, though it looks the same.

Now come on the first generation Lock-n-load press was just a projector with the lock-n-load bushings, around '03 Hornady revised the primer system, changed the shell plates yadda yadda.

So how is it faster to individually change each die with the lock-n-load bushings verses change 1 toolhead? I really don't care how long it takes to make a caliber change within reason but the only thing that bugs me is having to organize all the dies that are in the lock-n-load bushings, if it wasn't for that I would call it a push regardless of speed (within reason).


What little parts for the case feeder? What station 1 locator parts?

I though you were familiar with a 650 sorry my bad. The station 1 locator is the little slidy thing at station 1, and the small parts for the case feed would be the casefeed arm bushing, the case feed adaptor, and the casefeed body bushing. If you need further clarification please consult dillonhelp.com


Oh...that's how you save money with Dillon caliber changes. Ya gotta cut corners, I get it now. I'll check the link out and see what it costs that way and I'll pass the link onto my buddy. Yes, I'm busting your balls, just like I bust his.
To not be an total horse's rear, he busted my balls during the Hornady upgrades to the shellplates and primer systems. But now they're done and past history, he's hating it.I got all my parts free, just like he does with his Dillon, except with mine, most stuff is steel or aluminum and no "small" parts.

I should note with the Hornady, anything you buy related to a caliber change is made of steel. Once you buy the shellplate #1 (.45ACP, 30.06 and similar bases) and the one for .223, you cover most of the calibers. I only needed 7 total to cover most all the calibers I could ever dream of load. Bushings coming cheap in the ten pack. I guess you could add a powder measure or two, which ain't cheap.

If you took the time to see what that utility was you wouldn't have busted my balls for doing the same thing your doing, it's just with that utility I set up a database of what conversion parts I own and then I can choose a new caliber I want to load and right click on it and pick the "what do I need..." option and it tells me what part numbers of the individual parts I don't already own. It's the same thing as using tables and checking against your inventory it's just much easier.


Yes, takes a couple of minutes to do. Just bend a "U-shaped" bend in the ejector spring towards the rear of the press. Bend in two places to form the "U." 1. Bend once close to where the ejector spring wire is located and 2. bend close near where the ejector spring touches has the bend that goes into it's retainer above the shellplate. Measure the die intrusion into the wire and use this distance and add a couple thousandths to get your bend radius. You can use appropriate sized drill rod (It's nice and stiff.) to make the bend radius. When you're done, polish the ejector spring rod with sandpaper, then green scrubby pad to insure smooth ejection.

I apologize, but I suck at posting pictures on the internet. I suspect the description above should be adequate for someone that owns the press. It's a simple mod and Hornady could be making these springs like this, but they're being turds and not helping Lee. Maybe because it's the competition. Hornady crimp dies clear. Not sure about Dillon dies, they may also clear.

No problems with the picture, the description helps I just gotta stuff it away where i can find it in case I run across someone that need the 411. Thanks.


The new case activated powder drop is out the middle of this month. MidwayUSA is already displaying prices ($45.99) for it. It fits the original Lock N Load powder measure, has a slightly different operating mechanism and has belling expander inserts one can buy ($7.99 each) in most all popular pistol calibers. I Dunno about the Lee Patent, is that way Dillon presses are so expensive? Having to pay royalties to Lee for using so many Lee design patents?

Tricks? That was a cheap (The price of one Lyman die set.) and easy mod. And I know Dillon owners mod their presses, because my buddies that own Dillons have modified their presses. Is it only a modification if it's on a Dillon press and it's a "trick" if it's done on "non-blue" presses?

Good to know that is the revision that's being done. Now Dave, are you really that touchy? Trick, mods, tips, none of these things denotes anything bad, it's not s slur. Yes I have a modified indexing detent spring which slows down how fast my press stops indexing so it doesn't spill powder on pistol ammo (not that it was bad to begin with it's just better now). Anybody that has any progressive press will have some sort of mods they come up with to suit themselves. As far as the patents, Dillon and Lee have exchanged patents, you use mine I use yours type of a thing, other than that I don't know if either pays royalties.


Big whoops. This same crowd (I know, I'm a gunsmith and I work on their guns.) pisses off more money on gadjet guns trying to win than one can shake a stick at. Most of them don't. Win, that is. I see a lot of guys paying high prices for various guns, then they end up bringing them to me to fix some issue or another. I see this REGULARLY. I also know of other firearms that are as good and most cases way better than the ones they spend their money on, but the snob factor won't let them buy the less expensive gun, because they wanna feel "secure" emotionally in their purchase and get oohs and ahhs at the range.

That's really classy, they are nothing but a bunch of know nothing snobs that spend too much money on guns. Let me ask you thins Dave, has any right minded intelligent person ever bought anything other than what you think is the right choice? Why do I see more personal attacks from the non-blue camp?


It's great - has a hole right down the middle of the ram and a tube that you can use to feed the spend primers through a hole in your bench to a trash can or bucket below.

The Lee linkage is very similar to the RCBS Junior press linkage and is very efficient. It's hard to say, but the Lee may have even been less effort than the RCBS.

Good to hear the primer tube catch thing works as described, it looks like a really nice press. I'm not running out to pick one up but it's something I keep an eye out for and if I can get it for a song I'll get it.


I assume you're talking about the LEE classic cast turret press. But you should realize that press has an auto indexing turret. And wether your auto index the turret or the shellplate, the automation is there. The Lee also has automatic powder dump and a fairly quick manually operated primer feed system. I would guess it's probably capable of 300 rounds per hour if the guy works at it a little bit. Most 550 owner really aren't doing any better speed wise and the LEE classic turret press fully set up is less than 200 bucks, including dies. Hell, at that price difference, the two presses shouldn't even be comparable or close to comparable output wise. Another example of new designs being more price efficient. If I were looking at the 550 because I didn't need high output, I'd look hard at the Lee classic cast turret as well and spend that extra money on loading components.

Hmm, you might be a candidate for the LEE for such purposes, it's a cast iron press with an excellent linkage design, the same one that's on the classic cast single stage and has the nice spent primer dispense as well. I'm buying one for loading milsurp rifle.

I was talking about any turret press actually, I'm just not looking for one ATM. I do think your doing a bit of an apples to oranges thing here but I have no love for the 550 so it's all good. One question about your interest in the turret press for the rifle, why wouldn't you just load for it on the Lock-n-load? Maybe I shouldn't ask you may take it as some type of implied slander but really I'm just curious.


No, I couldn't help him or I would have. But I did defend him and his press, along with offering him encouragement, which is what YOU DILLON KOOL-AID DRINKERS DID NOT DO, which is WHY I posted. You guys just attacked his press and did the "buy dillon" kool-aid rant.

Why would I defend something I have reservations about? I never told anybody to just buy a Dillon in response to a reloading problem, the most I have said about YellowLab's problems is I hope he get's his press running! Please don't put words into my mouth and the kool-aid thing is tired. If you would like to know my name is John not you guys.


One last point and this is the bottom line. You Dillon owners need to learn to RESPECT the choices of others if they didn't choice Dillon.

Respect is a two way street. In this thread I have not seen anybody make a personal attack towards somebody for not choosing Dillon equipment, but it has been insinuated that former Lee owners that moved to Dillon machines are idiots, that 90% of the progressive reloading crowd are idiots, and that competitive shooters which overwhelming use Dillon presses are know nothing spend happy snobs.

Good day

[stiles]

Actually I have offered - just did it without the background noise. I'm with Yellowlab on the "Show me". My offer stands - I'll send you a video of my press operating at a capability rate of 1000 rounds an hour (WITHOUT A CASEFEEDER) . You in turn practice up and then send me one showing the same thing or one that surpasses it. Even if you can, and I don't think you can - you are not going to exceed by enough to justify three or four times the price. When the casefeeder is attached, my throughput then kicks into high gear and I have a video of that too. Let's exchange, shall we?


Good deal on helping him out, I really do hope YellowLab get's his press running with the small primers.

Your a hoot on the video challenge. If I were to take the video challenge it would be a race to a 1000 not a burst contest, but man that would be the most boring videos ever. I don't know if it would be high comedy or just mildly retarded for two grown men having a reloading shootout grudge match, but it would be something. I'll think about it because something about the idea of a reloading shootout grudge match just cracks me up to no end but I'm really not to interested in proving anything.

[YellowLab]

Booring video's? They have LUMBERJACK races on ESPN2 all the time. How exciting is SAWING A LOG? But they do it, and we watch it. Maybe we want to see a foot get sawed off? (Wasn't that in a movie?) :evil:

Basically till I SEE IT, I WILL NOT BELIEVE IT. Glossy brochures are one thing. But take a Dillon 550, STOCK OUT OF THE BOX and do the 500 or 600 they say you can do in an hour. I bet you don't get more than 100 done before your primer tube is empty. And STOCK presses only get 1 tube... with no loading tray. I doubt that the Lee's priming refils will be dramatically faster but enough so to make a difference. On top of that can anyone actually get all the hand/eye jobs correct for an HOUR STRAIGHT?

They are ALL GOOD PRESSES... THEY ARE AS GOOD AS THE MONKEY PULLING THE LEVER!!!! :neener:

[caz223]

Why all the bad karma in this thread?

[stiles]

No I don't watch LOG SAWIN!!!! OMG that cracks me up!

Now if your asking cause you really want to know about the 650 I'll tell you what I know. Can I operate the press for an hour non stop, yes but only after I got the roller handle, when I had the ball my palm would start to cramp after about 200 rounds and it would become annoying after 300 or so rounds and I would just walk away from it. When the primer buzzer goes off I pull out the primer follower flip up the buzzer switch and drop another tube and put the follower back on top. I have 11 primer tubes in each size. The press is pretty good about just letting you just load bullets and pull the handle, the only time my hand comes off the crank is when primer system buzzes at me. All I do with my left hand is load bullets.

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

"Now come on the first generation Lock-n-load press was just a projector with the lock-n-load bushings, around '03 Hornady revised the primer system, changed the shell plates yadda yadda."

Just like the first dillon was what, the 450? What's the 450 gotta do with the 650, except it was the path Dillon got there?

"So how is it faster to individually change each die with the lock-n-load bushings verses change 1 toolhead?"

5 seconds per die if you go slow. Seriously, it's true, one reason why I love the thing.


"I really don't care how long it takes to make a caliber change within reason but the only thing that bugs me is having to organize all the dies that are in the lock-n-load bushings, if it wasn't for that I would call it a push regardless of speed (within reason)."

Amazingly, it's not, because you just throw the dies back in the die box, just like you would on a single stage. So when you're ready to throw them back on, it's just twist and click, done. I know that's hard to believe, but sometimes the truth is strange. I did not originally buy the lock and load for this feature, but rather so I could quickly swap out an individual die if I wanted to tune the press to load a special cartridge, like swapping a neck sizing die for a full length resizing die at station 1. That's where the Hornady can really shine, if you use it to to load rifle, which I have done a lot in the past. I have both bolt and semi-auto 30.06 rifle and it's wonderful to load for both of them.

What little parts for the case feeder? What station 1 locator parts?

I though you were familiar with a 650 sorry my bad. The station 1 locator is the little slidy thing at station 1, and the small parts for the case feed would be the casefeed arm bushing, the case feed adaptor, and the casefeed body bushing. If you need further clarification please consult dillonhelp.com

I'll pass, because the Hornady has a lot fewer parts to change over and I'm not saying that as snobbery, it's just true. When I load on my buddy's, which I have, to help him get ready for a match, he handles any setup and issues, I'm just the operator flunky. BTW, I do think the 650's are great presses, just pricey with a lot of little stuff to buy.


"If you took the time to see what that utility was you wouldn't have busted my balls for doing the same thing your doing, it's just with that utility I set up a database of what conversion parts I own and then I can choose a new caliber I want to load and right click on it and pick the "what do I need..." option and it tells me what part numbers of the individual parts I don't already own. It's the same thing as using tables and checking against your inventory it's just much easier."

I can see you doing that, but with Hornady, adding new calibers is pretty much just adding a shellplate, and/or casefeed plate, new dies (If you need them.) and two or three Lock N Load bushings. I just buy the bushings by the ten pack when I need some. I add shellplates as I need them. Simple and not real pricey.

"No problems with the picture, the description helps I just gotta stuff it away where i can find it in case I run across someone that need the 411. Thanks."

You're welcome. A suggestion: Do what I do when you see somebody post a good post on any type of press on the net. Save it to a word document and keep a file with such documents called reloading/pressisssues or something like that.

"Good to know that is the revision that's being done. Now Dave, are you really that touchy? Trick, mods, tips, none of these things denotes anything bad, it's not s slur."

Heck no, I was sitting here laughing and was basically carrying on for the fun of it. Keeps me entertained while I'm waiting for the blueing to finish it's cycle. (Today is "dunk the gunds day" for me and I get some time between dunks which average 30 minutes.)

"Yes I have a modified indexing detent spring which slows down how fast my press stops indexing so it doesn't spill powder on pistol ammo (not that it was bad to begin with it's just better now). Anybody that has any progressive press will have some sort of mods they come up with to suit themselves. As far as the patents, Dillon and Lee have exchanged patents, you use mine I use yours type of a thing, other than that I don't know if either pays royalties."

I wonder if that's why my buddy swapped out his Dillon measure for a Hornady one to load powder. The Lee Auto Disk design doesn't (this is word of mouth only, mind you and not from me, I heard it third hand from a lame horse.) appear to handle powders like 4895 all that well. He was trying to reload 30.06 and got aggravaged, asked me about my measure, then bought one, put it on his Dillon.


"That's really classy, they are nothing but a bunch of know nothing snobs that spend too much money on guns. Let me ask you thins Dave, has any right minded intelligent person ever bought anything other than what you think is the right choice? Why do I see more personal attacks from the non-blue camp?"

Maybe because you are in the blue camp? An us vs. them thing? About the "classy." I see more guys buying certain brands of guns because of reputation than because they're genuinely getting a good gun. I know, because they bring them to me to work on. My point was, just because a bunch of people buy something, doesn't make it the most intelligent or best choice. I'm not a person that's impressed with "everybody's got one." Never have been, never will be. So that sort of information doesn't make a point with me. You're a smart guy, you can offer more tougher discussion points than that and I expect you to.

"Good to hear the primer tube catch thing works as described, it looks like a really nice press. I'm not running out to pick one up but it's something I keep an eye out for and if I can get it for a song I'll get it."

If you have a buddy with an FFL, they're less than 60 bucks wholesale from Jerry's Sport Center in PA.

"I was talking about any turret press actually, I'm just not looking for one ATM. I do think your doing a bit of an apples to oranges thing here but I have no love for the 550 so it's all good. One question about your interest in the turret press for the rifle, why wouldn't you just load for it on the Lock-n-load? Maybe I shouldn't ask you may take it as some type of implied slander but really I'm just curious."

A new toy, curiousity somewhat, I wanna see if I can use it to speed up reloading for the 600 yard line on high power rifle. The LEE turret has some interesting design potential that may allow it to load very accurate 600 yard line high power ammo at close to a progressive rate of speed. But the really hard core reason is my son, who's off to college, started at gun club at UNC Chapel Hill, is getting all kinds of opportunities to shoot and has been talking lately about "borrowing" my progressive. IF he takes it off to college, the Lee Classic Turret will be less money out of my pocket to replace and appears by all accounts to be a top notch press, plus that turret will be a little bit safer than a progressive for the young man to reload on. ;)

"Why would I defend something I have reservations about? I never told anybody to just buy a Dillon in response to a reloading problem, the most I have said about YellowLab's problems is I hope he get's his press running! Please don't put words into my mouth and the kool-aid thing is tired. If you would like to know my name is John not you guys."

Fair enough, I was generalizing, but sadly, I've seen it and experienced in enough posts of my own from Dillon owners that after awhile, ya tend to talk back. Nice ta meetcha John. I'm Dave.:)

"Respect is a two way street. In this thread I have not seen anybody make a personal attack towards somebody for not choosing Dillon equipment, but it has been insinuated that former Lee owners that moved to Dillon machines are idiots, that 90% of the progressive reloading crowd are idiots, and that competitive shooters which overwhelming use Dillon presses are know nothing spend happy snobs."

I have seen it both ways. After a while, the whole "You should buy a Dillon!!!" chant gets tiresome. Frankly, the reason I haven't bought some Dillon equipment is over the years reading reloading forums, I got tired of hearing it. So I (and others who own other types of equipment) got to the point we started chanting back. When the Dillon owners in general stop that and start offering more intelligent reasons than "everybody has one, you should to" whenever anybody has a problem with their press, I'll stop.

My apologies to Yellowlab for jumping on his thread.

[Master Blaster]

Hmm I wonder why it is that folks get so worked up over this??????

I have a Dillon 550, I have loaded about 60,000+ rounds on it over the last 7 years. I have not had to replace one part on it not one. Not even the smallest spring or piece of plastic has broken or fallen off of it. I have never had a single primer detonate ever. I have never had a squib load off it either.

It works with boring reliability for the 6 different calibers I use it to load.
I only own one powder measure, I move it from tool head to tool head. Tool heads take 10 seconds to change. The measure I twist the bolt on it and it takes me 4 or 5 throws to adjust it with my balance.

as far as it being a turret press...............

Its not. If you think its a turret press, a little clue for ya: Turret press holds one round in the shell holder. Dillon 550 holds 4. Turret press you rotate the dies 4 times and pull handle 4 times to make 1 round. Dillon 550 makes one round with each pull of the handle.

I would never recommend anyone who owns a Hornady or a Lee buy one ever. The machine you already own is the very best. Lee parts never break and their machines never malfunction or blow primers. DILLON IS CRAP, so please dont buy one 'Kay??????

You stick with whatever you like, and I'll stick with what I like so go have some gatoraide or ensure or whatever it is you drink.

Have a good day.

[stiles]

I think your sunk on the LNL if he's going to borrow it, better get something quick!

Naw the index detent spring mod has nothing to do with the powder measure itself, all it does is reduce the pressure the detent has on the shellplate and when it stops indexing it doesn't snap into place as hard which sometimes causes a few kernels to fly out.

It may shock some people in this thread but I actually have an origional Lee Reloader in my collection of gear. No I wasn't around to buy it I'm a second generation reloader my partner got it, it's all his fault!

[redneck2]

Man, you guys have got WAAAY too much time on your hands. Some of these replies must have taken an hour to write

I have a great idea. Get a life

[YellowLab]

No no no.. get a Dillon! :rolleyes: :barf:

Relax.. its all good fun.

BUT (there's always a BUT).

Even the MIGHTY DILLONS are not as capbile out fo the box as a Loadmaster. Why? You need to sink $80+ in parts to do the same thing I pay $30 for. (Delux calibure change or whatever its called). And unless you buy the primer tubes at like $6 a pop you are gonna stop every 100 rounds, just like the rest of us.

Paying all that money for stuff that other presess do either out of the box or for 1/3rd the price should entitle you to brag about it... you have no money left to buy supplies! :evil: :evil: :evil:

For every Dillon owner that get board with reloading cuase thier press 'just works' there are just as many Brand X reloaders that can say the exact same thing.. but for 1/3rd the price. :neener:

One day I will be one of THOSE people :D

[Rockstar]

Yellow: You won't pass the spelling/grammar test required of Dillon purchasers. :cool:

I think the Hornady is a good press. I KNOW the Loadmaster is a p.o.s. Caliber changes don't cost me very much for my 650---you're way off on the caliber change costs.

Save your pennnies; buy RCBS, Hornady, or, Gawd forbid, Dillon. :evil:

[Uncle Don]

I think the Hornady is a good press. I KNOW the Loadmaster is a p.o.s. Caliber changes don't cost me very much for my 650---you're way off on the caliber change costs.

Why do you think the Hornady is a good press and how do you know that the Loadmaster is not? Did you own one and couldn't run it and then assume it's the press? Tell us - how much is a caliber switch when the casehead is different? After all, we don't want to go running around making claims of which we have no factual basis.

[snbend]

Yaaaawn!

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

redneck,

Not they didn't. I type 135 WPM. I did it while I was waiting for the stuff to finish blueing in the tank instead of twiddling my thumbs, as my work is caught up (thank God, no weekend work for once). Dunno about stiles though. I'm sure he was entertained though.

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

For those that "Balderdashed" me, here's some food for thought. You just might wanna go to this link:

http://www.eguns.com/Dillon_Precision/AT500/at500.html

and read this (a quote from the link):

"AT500 Advanced Turret Reloading Press

The AT500 is a great starter press. A stripped down RL550B, it can be slowly upgraded to a full RL550B as your needs expand. Able to load over 40 calibers out of the box (excepting dies, which need to be purchased separately), it includes such RL50B features as the interchangeable toolhead, standard 7/8” x 14 dies, and the dillon lifetime “No-BS” warranty."

Hmmm......Note the fact the AT500 turret press is a stripped down RL55B. So, if that's so, then the statement the RL550B is just a "jazzed up" aka "upgraded" AT500 isn't so nutso after all, eh? I guess if Dillon thinks it's a turret press, so it must be a turret press, eh? Maybe we need to figure out the a better definition for a progressive press.:neener:

I propose this definition for a progressive press to you:

"A round with each pull of the handle" is actually nothing more than advertizing hype from the sales department. Besides, with the RL550B, you do not produce a round with each pull of the handle. You have to rotate it's shellplate turret. In fact, with most "progressives" available today, you have to do more than just pull the handle to produce a round. You may have to insert a case or you may have to insert a bullet or both.

A better definition for the purposes of deciding upon and purchasing a reloading press would be: "A home use progressive is a reloading press that's as affordable as possible, but automates every process possible, except for actuation of the mechanical operation of the press, which is done by actuating the handle to reduce purchase costs for the home reloader."

If one uses this definition and integrates the the concepts of practical efficiency and cost efficiency, one can make very good reloading press purchase decisions, regardless of brand.

By this definition, the only press that makes the label progressive is the Lee Loadmaster. Everything else is a turret. I hate to say it, but that includes my beloved Hornady.:banghead:

The ACC tournament is on, so I'll get back with this and do a reloading efficiency vs. cost efficiency analysis on the various presses. Should be fun and give some food for thought.

Regards,

Dave

[Johnny Guest]

I'm disappointed that our Handloading and Reloading forum, normally a quiet, technically oriented, backwater on THR, has deteriorated into a bickerfest, over, of all things, progressive loading presses. Heavens! You'd think the topic was Glock vs. 1911 or .45 vs. .40 vs. 9mm.

Perhaps this is my fault for being too laid back, allowing things to take their own course, and simply deleting the few instances of ugly language.

There have recently been a number of really acrimonious disputes over presses. Looky here - - This is a technical forum. When a member asks a serious question, in an earnest quest for knowledge, it is not the place or time for cutesy little digs at the other guy's apparent choice of loading gear. It makes sense to point out if the member is laboring under some false impression. It is only nice to indicate that Brand Z has a problem with the little safety chain breaking, or Brand Q's pretty blue paint fading when exposed to sunlight.

So, here's the drill. Say whatever you wish in direct answer to the question posed, writing about the brand in question ONLY. If Member Joe asks the question, answer Joe. If you have personal experience with that brand of gear, fine, say so. If you personally own a bit of gear that is better in your mind, you may mention it gently. You must NOT belittle or demean the other guy's choice of gear. Do NOT comment on any answer given by other members. You make your answer, they make theirs. It was mentioned above that some of these posts probably took hours to write. Friends, I trust you are justifiably proud when you post some magnum opus. I respectfully ask that you carefully proof read and edit it to assure there is no personal attack on any other member, no silly slams or funnyish flames. If there are, your carefully crafted composition will disappear, waft away like smoke in a breeze, evaporate like dew in the desert, go - - Well, you get the idea.

THR moderators and staffers do have a life away from the board, and it is possible that I'll miss some infractions for a few days. I take heart, though, in the number of members who are apparently becoming equally impatient with flames, silliness, and antagonism. More and more are clicking on the little red Report Bad Post triangle. I'll personally review the material before I erase anything. Please, treat one another with respect, so it is not needful that I cause your finely wrought writings to disappear. I've resisted the temptation to delete several posts, or even the entire thread. I've left it alone as an example of what we're trying to cure here.

Oh, while we're at it, please discontinue the bandwidth-wasting practice of posting nothing other than some emoticom (smiley face -- :) :evil: or whatever) or "I agree," or, worst, the "+1" entry. If you have nothing to say, please - - say nothing. In that they indicate nothing, nothing will be lost when the post is lost.

I will "Sticky" a version of this post on H&R forum. I'm closing this thread now. If you feel the need for input, please PM me, send an e-mail, or start a thread in Technical Support.

To all who are doing well and will help out, thank you all for your cooperation. For those who will not, well, see you around.

Very sincerely,
Johnny Guest
H&R Moderator

CLOSED