9x19 vs 9mm Parabelum vs 9mm Luger


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creitzel
March 7, 2006, 11:48 PM
I have seen these terms thrown around on various web sites. Are these all the same cartridge? If not, what are the differences between them? Just a newbie wondering about terminology :)

Thanks for any info you can give me,

Chris

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Bill2k1
March 7, 2006, 11:51 PM
9X19 and 9mm luger are the same. I think parabelum is too, but I have never run into it. As far as I know the only 9mm that isn't what you think a 9mm should be is 9mm Markov, that stuff is like 9x18 or something.

spooney
March 7, 2006, 11:57 PM
9X19 describes the cartridge by its diameter and length

9mm Luger describes the cartridge by its inventor Georg Luger

9mm Parabellum describes the cartridge by its purpose 9mm for war

There is also 9mm Makarov or 9X18, which is a russian service round, 9mm Browning which is the 380 auto, 9X21 which is known as 38 super, and a whole host of other 9mm.

whm1974
March 8, 2006, 12:09 AM
There is also 9mm Makarov or 9X18, which is a russian service round, 9mm Browning which is the 380 auto, 9X21 which is known as 38 super, and a whole host of other 9mm.

.38 Super is 9x23mm as is 9mm winchester magnum. Offhand I think there are at least three 9x21mm. And there are two 9mm Brownings the Short AKA .380 ACP and the Long.

Of course there loads more 9mm pistol cartiages are there...

-Bill

eastwood44mag
March 8, 2006, 12:09 AM
The 3 you mentioned are all equivalent.

Try going into a gun shop, and asking for 9x19. The reactions are priceless.

Black Majik
March 8, 2006, 12:28 AM
9x19 : 9mm parabellum, 9mm Luger, 9mm NATO

9x18 : 9mm Makarov

9x17 : .380 ACP, 9mm short, 9mm corto, 9mm Browning short

:)

Steelharp
March 8, 2006, 12:39 AM
Hey, Majik... don't forget 9mm kurz... ;)

akodo
March 8, 2006, 12:46 AM
Try going into a gun shop, and asking for 9x19. The reactions are priceless.

???

more info please.

are you seriously telling me this stumps your gun shop guys, or that they just think you are a militia wacko, gamerkid, or something?

Maybe I could see this stumping the local pimpleface walmart type in a supereverything store, or even in a general sporting goods store, but in a gunshop?

Black Majik
March 8, 2006, 12:54 AM
Hey, Majik... don't forget 9mm kurz...

Holy moly! I forgot! :D

creitzel
March 8, 2006, 01:00 AM
Thanks for all of the replies :) It seems that the topic is even more confusing than I had seen so far lol.

Thanks again,

Chris

creitzel
March 8, 2006, 01:02 AM
Oh, and mods, sorry I posted in the wrong place thanks for moving it :)

hurrakane212
March 8, 2006, 01:06 AM
Not really that confusing. If you ask for 9mm you will get 9X19, NATO, Parabellum.
The other stuff may be a "9mm" in truth...
but you will have to specify. Otherwise the clerk will hand you a box of 9mm/9X19/NATO/Parabellum.~Nathan

Hemicuda
March 8, 2006, 02:15 AM
Ain't there a "9MM Largo" also?

Big Gay Al
March 8, 2006, 02:26 AM
Yup, and a 9mm Ultra as well.

whm1974
March 8, 2006, 03:24 AM
Yup, and a 9mm Ultra as well.

AKA 9mm Police and 9x18(not the same as Makarov)

-Bill

Big Gay Al
March 8, 2006, 09:45 AM
AKA 9mm Police and 9x18(not the same as Makarov)
I don't think it's the same. The 9mm Makarov could more accurately be called the 9.2mm, as the diameter is .363, in stead of the .355 that the 9x19mm round is, in English measurement.

Rockstar
March 8, 2006, 10:08 AM
They're not just "equivalent", they're the same. ;)

Medusa
March 8, 2006, 10:24 AM
well, the 9x19 mm is called 9 Luger in US and 9 Para (or Parabellum) in Europe. At least that's what i know about it.

Big Gay Al
March 8, 2006, 10:29 AM
They're not just "equivalent", they're the same.
If you're referring to the main subject, then yes, like everyone else has said, 9x19mm, 9mm Luger, and 9mm Parabellum are all the same. I guess it just depends on what you want to call them.

If you ask me, there's too darn many 9mm variations. ;)

perpster
March 8, 2006, 10:31 AM
"Parabellum" means "prepare for war"

eastwood44mag
March 8, 2006, 02:03 PM
are you seriously telling me this stumps your gun shop guys, or that they just think you are a militia wacko, gamerkid, or something?

Mostly the former. This is a college town, and most of the employees are college kids. Yes, it is fairly easy to stump them.

HammerBite
March 8, 2006, 03:05 PM
Don't forget 9X21 IMI.

MrBigStuff
March 8, 2006, 03:16 PM
I've heard all three are interchangable and I've also heard 9mm Parabellum is traditionally loaded " hotter" and designed for use specifically in submachine guns. Don't have a 9mm so

Archie
March 8, 2006, 08:07 PM
I've heard all three are interchangable and I've also heard 9mm Parabellum is traditionally loaded " hotter" and designed for use specifically in submachine guns. Don't have a 9mm so…Not exactly. During the last part of WWII, Germany was running out of basic components – lead, for example. They started using ‘sintered’ (compressed or MIM) mild steel bullets in 9mm Parabellum ammo. Those bullets were lighter than the standard lead core bullets. In order to produce the standard pressure, the charges were adjusted (jacked up) to make the guns work. So the lighter bullet going faster was thought of as ‘hotter’. It was the same pressure as the regular lead core ammo. Which is somewhat higher than the ammo loaded in the U. S.

Some U. S. munitions makers started manufacturing 9mm ‘Lugar’ ammo (don’t know why they changed the name, but marketing has always been a mystery to me) for the British Army to use in Sten submachinguns. U. S. munitions makers seem to be a conservative bunch and the pressure levels were keep at minimal ranges, to not blow up anything. The result being the ammo would not correctly work the Sten gun; it would not always move the bolt far enough to the rear to engage the sear when the trigger was released. This caused the Sten guns to continue to fire until the magazine was empty. This in turn caused the British Army to mark the ammo “Not for submachinegun use”. This information trickled back to the U. S. but was garbled into the myth ‘submachinegun ammo’ was more powerful and would destroy American handguns.

Think about this for a moment: Would any government load a ‘special lot’ of any ammunition that would destroy some guns? Proof test ammo is not general issue. ‘Sabotage’ ammo left for insurgents to blow themselves up is not general issue. No Army every knowingly issued ammo to its own troops dangerous to be fired.

The same sort thing happened in the U. S. .357 Magnum ammo used to be loaded with 158 grain bullets. In the 1970s or so, Federal (I think) picked up on Lee Jurras’ idea of ‘SuperVel’ ammo and developed a 115 grain bullet at very high velocity in the .357 Magnum. This ammo would sometimes crack the forcing cones of S&W “K” frame model 19 revolvers. The ammo was still loaded to the same maximum pressure levels; but the stress on the barrel was different. Still, this lead to the belief the 115 grain ammo was ‘hotter’; generated more pressure. Does that sound familiar?



Okay, European ammo has always been loaded to higher pressure levels than the equivalent U. S. ammo. U. S. made 8x57 Mauser ammo is weaker than the European versions. Even .38 Special is loaded stronger in Europe. Europe (at least used to) thinks if you put modern ammo in an old gun and blow yourself up, you’re a dummy. It’s probably changing. Still European ammo will not ‘blow up’ a properly made American gun. It might wear out faster, but it won’t explode.

Big Gay Al
March 8, 2006, 09:16 PM
Yup, mostly chambered in Spanish made guns.
(9mm Largo that is)

KriegHund
March 8, 2006, 09:24 PM
I dont think anyone mentioned the russian 9x39mmm. I think its used int the special silenced form in the Groza?

Gixerman1000
March 8, 2006, 10:55 PM
Here’s my list firearms chambered for the 9mm Luger and how they are marked.

1. Beretta CX-4 ----- 9mm Para
2. Beretta 92FS Centurion ----- 9mm Parabellum
3. Beretta 92FS ----- 9mm Parabellum
4. Beretta 92FS INOX ----- 9mm Parabellum
5. Beretta 8000F Cougar INOX ----- 9mm Para
6. Browning Hi-power ----- 9mm Luger
7. CZ 75B ----- 9mm Luger
8. Glock G17L ----- 9x19
9. Heckler & Koch P9S ----- 9mm Para
10. Heckler & Koch P7M8 ----- 9mm x19
11. Heckler & Koch USP9 ----- 9mm x19
12. Sig Sauer P226 ----- 9mm Para
13. Sig Sauer P228 ----- 9mm Para
14. Sig Sauer P239 ----- 9mm Para
15. S&W PC 952 ----- 9mm
16. S&W 3906 ----- 9mm Parabellum
17. Walther P38 ----- 9mm

Hemicuda
March 9, 2006, 03:47 AM
Blue Dragon, my man...

13 posts ABOVE yours, i already mentioned the 9MM Largo... read before posting, dude...

R.W.Dale
March 9, 2006, 07:28 AM
a few more 9mm Bergmann , and 9mm Steyr, cousins to 9x23 largo as well as 9mm mauser , 9mm glisenti , 9mm browning long and 9mm federal

atblis
March 9, 2006, 01:52 PM
9x19 = 9 Parabellum = 9 Luger
9x21 is not 38 Super
38 Super is not 9x23
9x23 and 9x23 Largo are not interchangeable

1911user
March 9, 2006, 02:36 PM
Don't forget the 9x25 Dillon (10mm case necked down to 9mm). It was a hotrod cartridge developed for IPSC shooting in open guns; it didn't go far.

MrBigStuff
March 9, 2006, 07:38 PM
Thanks for the myth-clearing

Jadecristal
March 8, 2008, 06:37 AM
/me carefully looks at the thread he's about to necro, and tries to decide if the thing with be a safe zombie or one that needs shot in the head quickly.

Ok, in reference to all of this, why does SAAMI say that you should not shoot 9mm NATO (which from all I can tell is just 9x19) from a gun chambered for 9mm Luger? Are all "modern" 9mm set up such that it's perfectly safe to fire 9x19/9mm NATO from them, and 9mm Luger happens to work too?

link: http://www.saami.org/Unsafe_Combinations.cfm

I see people claiming that 9mm Luger is the same as 9mm NATO is the same as 9x19. Some expounding on this would be great.

Jadecristal

Pilot
March 8, 2008, 11:36 AM
9x17 : .380 ACP, 9mm short, 9mm corto, 9mm Browning short


And don't forget its 9MM Kurz also!

:)

robertbank
March 8, 2008, 11:54 AM
Not sure why it takes so long to get info across a thread. Simple question...simple answer. The three names refer to the same cartridge, period.

Commercial loadings come in 115, 125 and 147 gr bullet weights. Some Euro ammo is loaded hotter than other Euro ammo. So too ammo made in the US. All can be fired in a 9MM gun designed for the cartrdge and marked with either of the three names. You got a rusty clunker made during WW 1 or WW11 by slave labour you might want to think about shooting the gun at all.

Take Care

Bob

YZR
March 8, 2008, 12:32 PM
Latin: "Si vis pacem, para bellum."
English: "If you want peace, prepare for war."

lookin4fun
August 31, 2009, 03:10 PM
I order some ammo that is marked 9mm Luger yet size is 9X18 is this ammo ok to use in a 9x19. Its marked as range/target ammo?

cchris
August 31, 2009, 03:49 PM
No, 9x18 is 9mm Makarov. The Mak ammo, I believe, is actually more than 9mm in diameter, so it probably wouldn't chamber. Even if it did, I don't think the firing pin would even hit the primer due to the extra 1mm spacing difference.

Point is, don't try it. I don't know where you got the ammo from, but those are two different rounds. If the casing is marked "9x19", "9mm Para (or Parabellum)" or "9mm Luger", then it's okay to use. Otherwise, "9x18" or "9mm Makarov" it is NOT okay to use.

Out of curiosity, was it the Brown Bear FMJ ammo? As far as I know, that's the only widely-produced commercial Makarov ammo that you see much online.

Post a link to the place where you ordered it, if it is online.

Demitrios
August 31, 2009, 07:01 PM
On a side note, via the fact that all the diameter's are the same for those who are shooting 9x19 Luger pistols can you shoot the other variations of 9mm out of said pistol? Or is it considered unsafe or impossible to feed the ammo into your gun?

rcmodel
August 31, 2009, 07:07 PM
If it says:
9x19
9 mm Luger
9 mm NATO
9x19mm
9x19mm NATO
9 mm Parabellum
9 mm Para

You can shoot it.

If it says 9mm something else, you can't shoot it in a 9mm Luger chambered gun.

rc

wditto
August 31, 2009, 07:15 PM
Gixerman1000 , will you marry me ?

lookin4fun
August 31, 2009, 07:25 PM
Hey cchris the place i ordered from is natchezss.com. Not certain if we are allowed to post links in here! After measuring and checking other boxes I found the ammo is 9x19 some of the casing's must have got stamped harder than other cause the 9 looks like an 8 on some of them! The company is Sieller and Bellot is the maker of the ammo!

herohog
August 31, 2009, 08:51 PM
9mm Winchester Magnum is NOT 9x23, it is 9x29! It was used in the AMT AutoMag and a FEW others. Here is a comparison or the 9x19, and the 9mm WinMag (9x29):
http://herohog.com/images/guns/Compare9mms.jpg

gearjammer-2000
August 31, 2009, 11:41 PM
ok now my head hurts,lol

mesinge2
September 1, 2009, 12:06 AM
Sooo Many nines!!!!

rbohm
September 1, 2009, 12:13 AM
Sooo Many nines!!!!

so true, my head hurts after reading this thread. now i know why i try to stick to the .45acp.

mljdeckard
September 1, 2009, 12:18 AM
When I was a kid I went to the big thick dictionary in the local library to find out what 'parabellum' meant. It wasn't in there.

There's also the 9x25 Dillon, which is a 10mm casing necked down to a 9mm bullet.

(1911 user beat me to it.)

GRIZ22
September 1, 2009, 12:29 AM
9x19 metric designation

9mm Parabellum proper name of cartridge

9mm Luger proprietary name owned by Stoeger

jakk280rem
September 1, 2009, 02:18 AM
all this talk of 9mm and no mention of the 357 sig? shame.

since this thread was resurected after a year by a person asking about the use of 9mm mak in a 9mm para marked gun i will address that, even though the answer was previously answered in the thread.

I order some ammo that is marked 9mm Luger yet size is 9X18 is this ammo ok to use in a 9x19. Its marked as range/target ammo?

no, 9x18 cannot safely be chambered and fired in a 9x19 gun. 9x18 makarov bullets are sized .363, 9x19 are sized .355. if a 9x18 found its way into a 9x19 chamber and was succesfuly fired, excesive pressures would result. this would result in the rapid deterioration of your barrel at best, and burst barrel or blown case at worst.

look at your invoice. if you inadvertently bought 9x18, you have an excuse to buy a very nice new pistol. cz 82's can be had for $250 all day long, or another hundred will get you a real makarov. if you ordered 9x19mm and they sent you 9mm mak, thats a return issue.

cchris
September 1, 2009, 03:16 AM
lookin4fun: If this is the box they sent you (image is from the seller's website)...

http://www.sellier-bellot.cz/img/boxes/sb31042-kd.jpg

And they are stamped 9x19 and the ones that look like 8's are the same size, then yes they are safe to shoot. There might have been a mix up, but if you compare them all side by side, they should look the exact same. 1mm is somewhat noticeable, so one should appear shorter if it is 9x18.

Autolycus
September 1, 2009, 04:07 AM
I just like my 9mm to be good old fashioned 9mm.

wilkersk
September 1, 2009, 04:17 AM
Not exactly. During the last part of WWII, Germany was running out of basic components – lead, for example. They started using ‘sintered’ (compressed or MIM) mild steel bullets in 9mm Parabellum ammo. Those bullets were lighter than the standard lead core bullets. In order to produce the standard pressure, the charges were adjusted (jacked up) to make the guns work. So the lighter bullet going faster was thought of as ‘hotter’. It was the same pressure as the regular lead core ammo. Which is somewhat higher than the ammo loaded in the U. S.

Some U. S. munitions makers started manufacturing 9mm ‘Lugar’ ammo (don’t know why they changed the name, but marketing has always been a mystery to me) for the British Army to use in Sten submachinguns. U. S. munitions makers seem to be a conservative bunch and the pressure levels were keep at minimal ranges, to not blow up anything. The result being the ammo would not correctly work the Sten gun; it would not always move the bolt far enough to the rear to engage the sear when the trigger was released. This caused the Sten guns to continue to fire until the magazine was empty. This in turn caused the British Army to mark the ammo “Not for submachinegun use”. This information trickled back to the U. S. but was garbled into the myth ‘submachinegun ammo’ was more powerful and would destroy American handguns.

Think about this for a moment: Would any government load a ‘special lot’ of any ammunition that would destroy some guns? Proof test ammo is not general issue. ‘Sabotage’ ammo left for insurgents to blow themselves up is not general issue. No Army every knowingly issued ammo to its own troops dangerous to be fired.

The same sort thing happened in the U. S. .357 Magnum ammo used to be loaded with 158 grain bullets. In the 1970s or so, Federal (I think) picked up on Lee Jurras’ idea of ‘SuperVel’ ammo and developed a 115 grain bullet at very high velocity in the .357 Magnum. This ammo would sometimes crack the forcing cones of S&W “K” frame model 19 revolvers. The ammo was still loaded to the same maximum pressure levels; but the stress on the barrel was different. Still, this lead to the belief the 115 grain ammo was ‘hotter’; generated more pressure. Does that sound familiar?



Okay, European ammo has always been loaded to higher pressure levels than the equivalent U. S. ammo. U. S. made 8x57 Mauser ammo is weaker than the European versions. Even .38 Special is loaded stronger in Europe. Europe (at least used to) thinks if you put modern ammo in an old gun and blow yourself up, you’re a dummy. It’s probably changing. Still European ammo will not ‘blow up’ a properly made American gun. It might wear out faster, but it won’t explode.
"si vis pacem, para bellum"

Interesting post, thanks!

doubs43
September 1, 2009, 02:39 PM
In the mid-late 1950's Interarmco was selling WW2 surplus 9mm ammo through their civilian outlet "Ye Olde Hunter", based in Alexandria. VA. Corrosive 9mm was $4 per 100 and non-corrosive was $5 a hundred. The non-corrosive was boxer-primed Winchester and I shot quite a bit of it in a couple of Lugers, an AC-41 P-38 and an Astra 600. It came in a plain white box, 50 rounds per container. It was good reliable ammo.

I can't comment on the cheaper corrosive ammo as I never bought any of it. It could have been made almost anywhere.

I'm surprised this thread has reached 3 pages as the answer to the original question is simple: It's all the same cartridge by a different designation.

rondog
September 1, 2009, 04:04 PM
Meh, I just shoot .45 acp to keep things simple.

atblis
September 1, 2009, 04:38 PM
$4 per 100 rounds in 1952. That sounds really expensive. What is that in today's dollars?

middy
September 1, 2009, 05:28 PM
$4 per 100 rounds in 1952. That sounds really expensive. What is that in today's dollars?

That's the equivalent of $32.44 in 2008 dollars.

cchris
September 1, 2009, 05:58 PM
Which is expensive, but that's the price that people jack it up to these days.

Wal-Mart, when they have ammo, has 100 rounds of Remington UMC for $22, 100 rounds of WWB for $20, and 100 rounds of Blazer for less than $18.

Shadow 7D
September 1, 2009, 07:00 PM
Look on wikipedia, there is a whole chart for the 9mm family

cchris, 9x18 covers a couple of incompatible rounds, one of which is the 9mm Mak

mesinge2
September 2, 2009, 09:07 PM
9x18mm Makarov
9x18mm Police (9mm Ultra)
9mm Browning Long (9x20mm Browning SR)
9mm Glisenti
9x19mm Parabellum (9mm Luger, 9x19mm NATO)
9mm Federal
9x21mm IMI
9x21mm Gyurza (9x21mm SP-10)
9mm Action Express (9mm AE)
9x23mm Steyr
9mm Largo (9mm Bergmann-Bayard, 9x23mm Largo)
9mm Super Cooper (9x22mm Super Cooper)
9x23mm Winchester
9mm Mars
9mm Mauser Export (Export caliber for C96)
9mm Winchester Magnum
9x25mm Dillon
9x25mm Super Auto G
9x30mm Magnum (9mm Dillon Magnum)

Krayzae Karl
August 22, 2013, 11:46 AM
I came across this thread and thought I could add a bit of what I know. I still see this dicussed quite often. If anyone knows otherwise please correct me. This is what I have gathered based on my loading data, service training and a love of German made firearms.
9x19mm cartridges, Are they the same? Well yes and no. For all intensive purposes, Yes.
Anytime you see the 9mm or 9x19mm they are interchangeable, based on the three mentioned.
All these terms are the same as far as the 9x19 cartridge are concerned. The names have been adopted based on the pressure testing by C.I.P and SAAMI and the name it was submitted to them under. This is the reason for the different names of the 9x19mm cartridge. Luger created the 9x19mm. Nicknamed 9mm Luger because of the first firearm it was used in, the Luger Semi-automatic pistol built by the German company DWM. DWM's motto was Si vis pacem, para bellum Latin for "If you seek peace, prepare for war". Most likely where the name parabellum came from. The word parabellum is still used in Germany (have an H&K you know this) and a good part of Europe.
9x19 Variants:
9mm Luger and
9mm Parabellum are the same.
9mm NATO is the same as a 9mm Luger or parabellum that is over pressure:
9mm Parabellum +P or
9mm Luger +P
NATO rounds are also almost always exclusively FMJ ball rounds

If you load you know +P is an over pressure round and +P+ is an extremely over pressure round. +P+ is used by many military and LEO's as their SERVICE ammo +P+ is not used for training, this is due to the added stress it puts on the firearm. Most any high quality handgun can use any of these ammos without malfunction.
Two types of 9x19mm that were developed by the Russians for cycling of submachine guns and armour penetration are:
9×19mm 7N21 +P+
9×19mm 7N31 +P+
Caution should be used before these are used as they haven't been tested by C.I.P or SAAMI and are suspected of running pressures even higher than that of traditional +P+.

The Lone Haranguer
August 22, 2013, 12:26 PM
I need to learn to check dates on these threads. :rolleyes:

Madcap_Magician
August 22, 2013, 01:02 PM
This is the thread that refuses to die. KILL IT. KILL IT WITH FIRE.

Hurryin' Hoosier
August 22, 2013, 07:59 PM
This is the thread that refuses to die. KILL IT. KILL IT WITH FIRE.
Nah. Use a 7.72X25! ;)

9mmepiphany
August 22, 2013, 09:45 PM
This is the thread that refuses to die. KILL IT. KILL IT WITH FIRE.
I can do that

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