Shotgun Kept In Space Station


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MikeJackmin
March 8, 2006, 10:41 AM
I've heard of this before, but this is the first time I've seen any details:

http://www.usa4id.com/ciwc/SawedOff.htm

Looks like the removable buttstock works as a machette. I want one.

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MS .45
March 8, 2006, 10:49 AM
Very interesting. I never thought of that as a need before but it makes sense.

V4Vendetta
March 8, 2006, 10:49 AM
How do they keep the machete end from stabbing them in the shoulder?:confused:

Maxwell
March 8, 2006, 10:58 AM
Makes perfect sense.
The russians have been taking up pistols for years, just in case they land in some unexpected area and need to keep critters off. In the future who knows?

They'll probly keep guns for the same reasons we keep them down on earth.
Which beggs the question, what is the best round for spacemen?

Edit: anyone find it cute that not only do they pack a shotgun, but they pack one thats an NFA weapon by american laws?
You can either call it a short barrled shotgun or detachable stock carbine.

The Viking
March 8, 2006, 11:12 AM
Never know when a bunch of them nasty xeno-morphs will show up:D

rnovi
March 8, 2006, 11:14 AM
"Hello Dave. What are you doing with that shotgun? Will I dream, Dave?"

Preacherman
March 8, 2006, 11:15 AM
Hmmm... Now me, I'd be tempted to pack some low-base #7½ shotshells and try a few Sporting Clays-type plinking exercises on passing satellites! :D

Manedwolf
March 8, 2006, 11:16 AM
I sincerely doubt it's ever loaded up there. A ND with hard vacuum on the other side of the wall would be VERY VERY BAD. :D

epijunkie67
March 8, 2006, 11:45 AM
The article says it's got 3 barrels. Two shotgun and one rifle. I wonder what the rifle round is? Since it's a defensive weapon it doesn't make sense for it to be .22lr but a barrel that short probably doesn't do much for 7.62X54R. Maybe 7.62X39?

Justin
March 8, 2006, 11:47 AM
I smell a marketing opportunity!

"Now you too can own the very same gun designed for use by Russian Cosmonauts and included on every Russian space flight!" <--Announcer guy voice.

Baikal should be churning these things out by the thousands, I tell you. At $300-$400 a pop, they'd probably sell like hotcakes.

12-gauge hotcakes, that is.

GEM
March 8, 2006, 11:49 AM
I read somewhere that John Glenn carried an SW 39 or 59 (?) on his first space trip in case he came down in the Amazon basin.

Anybody remember the UK puppet TV show - Captain Scarlet. I remember it when I was a kid. An Earth expedition lands on Mars. Runs into the Martians who point something like a camera at them. Our guys shot them :eek:

The Martians, reasonably annoyed, invade Earth.

It was done by the guys who did Thunderbirds - Gerry Anderson.

I'm against taking guns into space as it gives the aliens the wrong idea. After all, have guns solved the zombie problems here on Earth. NOOO! They still come back. :p

dman4384
March 8, 2006, 12:06 PM
I hear the the NJ police put out a warrant on the Cosmonots for orbiting over their state with an unregistered shotgun, and for not having a NJ FOID.

:neener:

thebucket
March 8, 2006, 12:09 PM
I'm against taking guns into space as it gives the aliens the wrong idea. After all, have guns solved the zombie problems here on Earth. NOOO! They still come back.

When you shoot the zombies, you need to aim for the head. If that doesn't work, then nuke the site from orbit. It's the only way.

VirgilCaine
March 8, 2006, 12:11 PM
Cool!

VietVet 67-68
March 8, 2006, 12:53 PM
Very nice I'll take a dozen!!

Keith ;)

Richard.Howe
March 8, 2006, 12:54 PM
12-gauge hotcakes, that is

ROFL, nice one...

Seriously, it's always been a thought experiment of mine to consider the flight path(s) of a fired bullet in space. It would literally go on for ever and ever unless sucked into the gravwell of a large mass. I guess that's a statistical guarantee if given a long enough time constant...

Ever wonder how tight your shotgun's pattern would be at 3 light-years? :D

danurve
March 8, 2006, 01:03 PM
"OutLand"

ABTOMAT
March 8, 2006, 01:06 PM
In "MiG Pilot" Belenko mentions a Soviet pilot who had to bail out in the middle of nowhere. They found his body much later, along with his diary which lamented not having a firearm available. After that pilots were issued pistols. Then one killed his family, so they started keeping them locked up at base, only to be signed out for a flight.

Lupinus
March 8, 2006, 01:21 PM
hey man if I was stuck in a tin box in outer space with a few other guys lonley going stir crazy thousands of miles from the nearist Nevada licensed working girl house I'd want a gun too

MechAg94
March 8, 2006, 01:24 PM
Didn't the early cosmonauts bail out of their capsules in the air? I remember seeing a History Channel show saying they did that with the first Cosmonauts and covered it up so they could claim they safely brought the spacecraft back down. No capsule to hide in once they get to the ground.

aguyindallas
March 8, 2006, 01:28 PM
CCW Anyone?

Dr.Rob
March 8, 2006, 01:30 PM
You know there was a SMOKING area on Mir?

A shotgun seems mild compared to that.

ArmedBear
March 8, 2006, 01:31 PM
Trapshooting in space could be interesting.

Maybe they shoot off the side of the space station, like a cruise ship at sea.

Lupinus
March 8, 2006, 02:22 PM
think of the range and trajectory :D

Rickstir
March 8, 2006, 02:27 PM
No one has started it so I will...

Clearly the 9mm is better than the .45 ACP in outer space.:neener:

OBXMIKE
March 8, 2006, 02:30 PM
Think of what the RECOIL would do in zero grav....you'd go pinging around the space station like a pinball unless you were anchored to something......:confused:


Besides....everybody knows that to kill a martian, all you have to do is play Hank Williams music real loud....thier heads just explode....

ABTOMAT
March 8, 2006, 02:38 PM
Besides....everybody knows that to kill a martian, all you have to do is play Hank Williams music real loud....thier heads just explode....

I thought everybody did that...

Working Man
March 8, 2006, 02:38 PM
No one has started it so I will...

Clearly the 9mm is better than the .45 ACP in outer space.

Is no place is safe :confused: :D

Master Blaster
March 8, 2006, 03:10 PM
The .45 is better because it has higher momentum so its less likely to fall into a black hole, but then the 9mm is faster so it will get there first......

Of course you could use a 155 grain bullet for the .45...... so that would make the .45 better in every way...

Red Tornado
March 8, 2006, 03:15 PM
I think a 12" drilling w/ detachable stock is just too cool. I agree Baikal should be churning these things out. Even with the short barrel, I imagine 7.62x54 would still kill most things in your way.

Actually, why isn't Baikal making a normal size drilling? Surely they could do it at a reasonable cost, at least compared to extant drillings.
RT

engineer151515
March 8, 2006, 03:36 PM
Lupinushey man if I was stuck in a tin box in outer space with a few other guys lonley going stir crazy thousands of miles from the nearist Nevada licensed working girl house I'd want a gun too

You're in Florida. You ARE thousands of miles from the nearist Nevada licensed working girl house. :neener:

But at least you're not in a tin box ... right? :)

GEM
March 8, 2006, 04:37 PM
If you shoot someone in space, do you get sued in Galactic Civil Court?

Ayoob has an article with 10 cases of such happening in Space Guns and Aliens magazine.

Betcha the crew of the Nostromo in the first Aliens movie wish they had some of those Colonial marines guns from the second Aliens movie.

1 old 0311
March 8, 2006, 04:49 PM
The Russians program their ships to land on the ground. We program ours to land in the sea. Wonder if ours have spear guns:neener:

Kevin

GEM
March 8, 2006, 04:54 PM
The space shuttle lands in the sea? Are we going back to the capsules? :what:

Harry Tuttle
March 8, 2006, 05:01 PM
Lev Andropov: Excuse me, but I think I know how to fix this.
Watts: Move it! You don't know the components!
Lev Andropov: [annoyed] Components. American components, Russian Components, ALL MADE IN TAIWAN!

Justin
March 8, 2006, 05:15 PM
Besides....everybody knows that to kill a martian, all you have to do is play Hank Williams music real loud....thier heads just explode....

Slim Whitman, actually.

Maxwell
March 8, 2006, 05:24 PM
Are we going back to the capsules?

Actually, for the new moon shots it looks like we are.

Fly320s
March 8, 2006, 05:28 PM
Richard.Howe: Ever wonder how tight your shotgun's pattern would be at 3 light-years?
The pattern wouldn't spread because the wad would not release the pellets. No air resistance, you see, to pull the wad away from the shot.

Now, pull out your pocket supercomputer to determine the effects of all of the gravitational fields that will affect the shot. :neener:

MrTwigg
March 8, 2006, 05:32 PM
Funniest thread I've read in a loooong time !

You can either call it a short barrled shotgun or detachable stock carbine

What about the BFK ? :eek:

Kim
March 8, 2006, 08:25 PM
I hate to say it but John Glenn is anti-gun. I forget which University has the John Glenn institute but if you google it you will find it has a Violence Prevention antgun program and you will find many names you recognize working there. Oh yeah he is a BiG DEM of coarse.:confused:

DJJ
March 8, 2006, 08:28 PM
I guess if you were a cosmonaut packing a piece under your spacesuit, it'd be a
.45 ACPCCCPCCW?

bigray327
March 8, 2006, 09:16 PM
Actually, for the new moon shots it looks like we are.
True, but the nominal landing sites for Constellation flights will likely be on land, in the continental United States.

default
March 8, 2006, 09:54 PM
Space station smoking area. Crazy 3-barrel space shotgun/carbine/machete, for wolf defense (!). I'm sorry, but sometimes Russians are just plain cool.:cool:

Maxwell
March 8, 2006, 09:55 PM
True, but the nominal landing sites for Constellation flights will likely be on land, in the continental United States.

...so what happens if they miss Vermont? :uhoh:

sometimes Russians are just plain cool.

Agreed, I miss the cold war.

Kharn
March 8, 2006, 09:59 PM
I'm suprised they didnt opt for an underfolding AK.

Kharn

Mulliga
March 8, 2006, 10:00 PM
"I like to keep this handy...for close encounters."

- Cpl. Dwayne Hicks

AirPower
March 8, 2006, 10:06 PM
I'm surprised no one mentioned this.

How to deal with OVER PENETRATION in the space station? You definitely don't want to poke a hole in the spacestation "wall". :what:

Maxwell
March 8, 2006, 10:08 PM
Spacecraft walls, currently, are made of tinfoil and cloth.
Its a lost cause to worry about overpenitration since throwing a fork can kill everyone onboard.

Brian Dale
March 8, 2006, 10:12 PM
Kim, when they sent John Glenn back into space a few years ago, a lot of my friends were disgusted by such a blatant publicity stunt. Not me--I'd much rather have John Glenn in space than on the Senate floor. He causes less trouble when he's in space.

DJJ, good one.

On packing a shotgun in space: hey, it worked for Zoe; it works for me.

Knob Creeker
March 8, 2006, 10:23 PM
There was some talk about this over at subguns.com. Some one said that the firearm was a "Soviet/Russian TOZ TP-82 survival weapon. Basically a 12-inch (11.9 or saomething like that) drilling, two 20 gauge barrels over a 5.45x39mm rifle barrel." I have no clue, sound good to me.

bigray327
March 8, 2006, 10:25 PM
...so what happens if they miss Vermont?
We'll certainly be aiming for a landing site in the western United States, probably at the dry lake beds at Edwards AFB, so I'm not too worried about Vermont. As for targeting, even back in the later Apollo days, we had the ability to put a capsule within a square mile or so, based solely on knowing the winds of the day and choosing a good time to deploy the chutes. Now, with GPS and more sophisticated targeting methods, life is good.

/guess where I work

warwagon
March 9, 2006, 12:41 AM
As for me,I hold the opoinion that when John Glen took that fall in the tub, and hit his coconut, that wires got shorted in the brain pan.
That was about the time he transfomed from a Marine hero into a liberal pansy.:banghead:

Optical Serenity
March 9, 2006, 01:31 AM
So, which is better? An AR-15 vs. AK-SOYUZTHREEBARRELEDSHOTGUNRIFLE?

Nightcrawler
March 9, 2006, 02:14 AM
Many people assume that some kind of laser weapon (http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/rocket3l.html) would be the weapon of choice for the crew of your nuclear powered rocket (http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/index.html), but there's no reason conventional guns won't work just as well. Lasers would offer less of a penetration risk, though.

As for firing in zero gravity, I think all you'd have to do is brace yourself with one hand and you'd be okay. You'd want to be behind cover anyways. Even a grazing hit can be quite lethal if you don't have a self-sealing space suit (http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/rocket3m.html).

Makes firing longarms a bit tricky, perhaps, but how would you shoulder a weapon and use your aiming device in a bulky vac suit anyway?

The thing is, I don't think normal firearms would work very well for space walks, use on the moon, etc. The thing is the temperature differences. You're talking about things heating up to hundreds of degrees, then cooling back down to about 3 Kelvin, depending on whether or not the sun is shining. I think normal guns might seize up under those circumstances, if used "outside" for long periods of time. (Don't metals tend to stick to each other under exteme cold?)

Perhaps a specially designed "vac gun" that's built with just such tolerances in mind?

loose cannon
March 9, 2006, 02:18 AM
well no ones mentioned it yet so i may as well....its for when the wraith hive ships arrive from the pegasus galaxy.

theyre tough to kill so if the rifle barrel doesnt do it the rifled slugs from the shotgun barrels will.

Nematocyst
March 9, 2006, 02:52 AM
"Hello Dave. What are you doing with that shotgun? Will I dream, Dave?" <snort>

Oh, so subtle.

<updated by a decade; slight British accent of Patrick Swayze>
"Number 1, what are you going to do with that shotgun?"

And just imagine the ballistics of a 7mm08 in space. Talk about flat trajectories...

Nem

LAK
March 9, 2006, 03:26 AM
More like to handle a runaway astro-nut; or a general mutiny. Conditions being what they are, this is not unlikely to happen sooner or later, and it is not like a sub that in a bad situation can make a rapid surface.
---------------------------------------

http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org

Herself
March 9, 2006, 07:03 AM
Both the Soviet/Russian and U.S. space station programs have experienced "mutinies." The first ones on each side were by crews given too much to accomplish in too short a time, on one of the pre-Mir (Saylut?) stations and on Skylab. Essentially, the crews realized Mission Control wasn't going to be able to come up and make them toe the mark, so when schedules became too hectic, they took a day or so off!

The most recent one was when the first crew of the ISS named the place "Alpha," over objections from their bosses on both sides. Not high drama but there were some hard feelings.


...A smoking area on Mir? Good for them! I was never fond of the USSR but when the space program over there kept Mir running and running, long past its expected service life with little more than perserverance, duct tape, bungee cords and string, I really came to admire the talent and spirit of their cosmonauts and engineers. --Plus you have to admire anybody launching manned and cargo rockets from approximately the latitude of Detroit! Didja know they sent canned food up for crew rations? Steel cans! Just like you'd buy at the supermarket, if you were shopping in Russia. Mir was the way I thought a space program would be; it had its warts but it was a very survivable machine. The place managed to get through a fire after all, no small thing when the nearest firehouse is a world away and any air that goes up with the flames is air you won't have for breathing!


On the last page of gun drawings in the beautiful "The Illustrated Encyclopedia of Handguns" by A. B. Zhuk, the Russian .410 "Mars" will be found. It may be ancestral to the current Russian space program's "wolf gun," as the description notes it was "...[d]eveloped...for cosmonauts, pilots, geologists, prospectors and others who must survive under extreme conditions." 260mm barrel, detachable shoulder stock. It looks like a space gun!

--Herself

Working Man
March 9, 2006, 07:33 AM
Space station smoking area. Crazy 3-barrel space shotgun/carbine/machete, for wolf defense (!). I'm sorry, but sometimes Russians are just plain cool.

Sounds like they have more rights up in space then we have in some Dallas
restaurants.

MrTwigg
March 9, 2006, 09:22 AM
Open the pod bay doors Hal, d*mmit ! :D :neener: :D

Manedwolf
March 9, 2006, 09:43 AM
On packing a shotgun in space: hey, it worked for Zoe; it works for me.

Except that's not a shotgun. Her sidearm is a cut-down Winchester rifle. :D

Justin
March 9, 2006, 10:05 AM
The Mare's Leg is nice, but I think I'd have to go with Vera. :D

AJ Dual
March 9, 2006, 10:31 AM
In the 1970's the Soviet Union launched a series of Salyut stations that had classified military missions.

To prevent "capture" or close inspection by the U.S. some of the stations were armed with a 23mm machine gun/cannon! ("Go big or go home…" theory I presume!) It's station keeping and attitude control could be slaved to the fire control, firing thrusters to counter-thrust automatically against the recoil of the cannon. The system was tested at least once by ground control before the station was manned.

To prevent the recoil from imparting rotation to the Salyut station, the cannon was in a fixed mount along the stations major axis of mass, and it was aimed by maneuvering the entire station.

The Soviet designers later decided that, space, even just low orbit, is a VERY big place. And if the Americans wanted to spy on their station, they could just keep their distance with a "dark" satellite with a bigger camera, affording them no target. And in the aftermath of post-Apollo cutbacks, the U.S. had virtually no manned space transportation with which to board or capture the station. So subsequent Salyuts went unarmed.

Although there is anecdotal evidence that the US had a secret military spaceplane in development during that time, (But not actually deployed until the 90's.) Aviation Week and Space Technology has an article on a spaceplane launched from a mach 3 parent aircraft at high altitude that was based on the Mach 3 XB-70 bomber prototype. (The XB-70 itself scared the bejesus out of the USSR, causing the development of the massive Mach 3 MiG 25 Foxbat) If it really did exist, it could have been launched with little warning, and attacked Soviet space assets. So perhaps they weren't utterly paranoid after all… :)

(Remember the big space-suit/laser battle from "Moonraker"? LOL…)

Frankly, I would be shocked if it were proven that there were never any undeclared weapons systems or satellites with nukes up there between the beginning of the space race and today...

Carl N. Brown
March 9, 2006, 10:57 AM
Given the popularity of Russian Nagants, SKSs, and Kalashnikovs, and
the popularity of AR7, M6 and other "survival" backpacker guns,
the "TOZ TP-82 survival weapon, 20 gauge shotgun over a 5.45x39mm rifle"
could be modified for the US market:
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=36846&stc=1&d=1141919286

default
March 9, 2006, 11:39 AM
AJ Dual, at first I thought "yeah, right" when I read the part of your post about a 23mm cannon on a Salyut. Glad I kept my mouth shut, and thanks for bringing to my attention something I should have known about as a Soviet space program buff.:)

Among other places:

http://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/spaceguns/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salyut

http://www.geocities.com/i_s_s_alpha/past_spacestations.htm

glockamolee
March 9, 2006, 12:02 PM
The Machete was one of two that was sold by Sovietski years ago. The other machete is the version that I was able to pick up

tellner
March 9, 2006, 12:13 PM
You know there was a SMOKING area on Mir?

Can't they just go outside to smoke like everyone else? :p

ABTOMAT
March 9, 2006, 12:16 PM
I have to imagine it wouldn't have taken many hits to stop an enemy spacecraft. Especially 23mm!

VirgilCaine
March 9, 2006, 01:02 PM
The thing is, I don't think normal firearms would work very well for space walks, use on the moon, etc. The thing is the temperature differences. You're talking about things heating up to hundreds of degrees, then cooling back down to about 3 Kelvin, depending on whether or not the sun is shining. I think normal guns might seize up under those circumstances, if used "outside" for long periods of time. (Don't metals tend to stick to each other under exteme cold?)

The problem with firing guns in space is heat--without an atmosphere of molecules to get heat away from the gun, heat can only radiate away from the gun, which is very slow. So after a few shots, the barrel might be too hot to fire.

Brian Dale
March 9, 2006, 03:56 PM
Manedwolf,Except that's not a shotgun. Her sidearm is a cut-down Winchester rifle. :D Man, you can tell that she's pretty if I'm distracted enough to mistake her rifle for a Model 1897 shotgun. I stand corrected.

...and :D :D , too. :neener:

thatguy
March 9, 2006, 05:03 PM
Seems to me that I read a few years ago that there is an international agreement barring all weapons from space, even small arms. I find the survialist angle hard to swallow given the tracking on any returning vehicle. They would be all over a crashed spaceship within minutes, hardly enough time for surviving astronaughts to be playing wild kingdon with the wolves, which, BTW, don't hunt humans.

Also, some American astronaught was once asked in an interview if any small arms were ever taken into space and he said no.

If they do have a gun on the station it might be to kill any personnel who go nuts and threaten the vehicle.

Dr.Rob
March 9, 2006, 05:37 PM
Seems to me that I read a few years ago that there is an international agreement barring all weapons from space, even small arms. I find the survialist angle hard to swallow given the tracking on any returning vehicle.

Yes because no nation ever violated a treaty, ever. And because big dollar technology projects never ever fail, ever. (Hubble) And that wolf chewing on your foot never attacked anyone. (Except that little Siberian girl that never made the papers here) :scrutiny:

The Russians, from experience, prepare for the worst. I'm not saying a Russian engineer could have kept the Titanic from sinking, but you can damn well bet there would have been enough lifeboats. And your chafing dish could be used as an oar.

Russians have been doing more with less for over a century, and while we might look sideways at our former adversary's inventions, they often work astonishingly well. (Do a web search on limb re-attachment, for example)

There is also a level of machismo in the Russian Armed Forces that we westerners likely just don't get. For example, G-Suits were often NOT worn by Soviet pilots, because they were for 'pansys.' Russian special forces were trained in extensive hand to hand combat, not for use against US, but to keep them from using their trusty kalashnikovs on their own citizens. You have a riot in Georgia? Send out some Spetnatz boys armed only with shovels. The result though is that the average Russian snakeeater can break bricks with his pinkie because they LIKE the hardship of constant training.

You want to assault a bridge? Get blind drunk on potato spirits the night before.

You want to build a space station? Keep a fur suit in the storage locker in case the heat goes out. (TRUE STORY, as reported in National Geographic... Russian Kosmonauts wearing fur suits to stay warm while repairing an abandoned space station, they smoked a lot during the repairs.)

You want to take a new American rifle to the range for testing, put it in a padded case and drive it to the range. You want to take a Russian rifle to the range for testing? Wrap a chain around it and drag it behind the truck to the range. (Cue Russian gun designer holding up AK-74 and smiling saying, "Yes but our rifle is also a club!")

And just to stay gun related, I really want one of those three barrelled Kosmonaut machete guns!

Sistema1927
March 9, 2006, 06:23 PM
You want to take a new American rifle to the range for testing, put it in a padded case and drive it to the range. You want to take a Russian rifle to the range for testing? Wrap a chain around it and drag it behind the truck to the range. (Cue Russian gun designer holding up AK-74 and smiling saying, "Yes but our rifle is also a club!")

And, the Russian rifle will probably look better after being dragged to the range.

default
March 9, 2006, 11:31 PM
Well put, Dr. Rob. The Russian mixture of technical brilliance and brute force has resulted in some incredible devices, some more successful than others:

A single-seat attack helicopter with coaxial rotors and an ejector seat. (Ka-50)

A titanium-hulled submarine with a reactor cooled by liquid metal capable of submerged speeds up to 44 knots. It was built in giant assembly buildings from which the air was removed and substituted with argon. Workers wore spacesuits. (Alfa-class)

A rocket-powered 200-knot supercavitating torpedo. (Shkval)

A select-fire assault rifle optimized for use underwater. (APS)

A supersonic interdiction bomber/fighter capable of 9g turns that has a kitchen...and a bathroom. (Su-32FN/Su-34)

A ring of shaped charges on a tank turret roof slaved to a millimeter-wave fire control radar to defend against antitank missiles. (ARENA)

A probe that landed on Venus in 1975 and survived for 65 minutes...at 90 atmospheres, 485 degrees centigrade, in an extremely corrosive atmosphere.

These are just some of the wackier Russian inventions. There is also:

A pistol in which the slide stop lever doubles as the ejector, and the mainspring doubles as the magazine release. It has 27 parts, 7 fewer than your average GLOCK. (Makarov PM)

An assault rifle with a way-oversized gas system and significant bolt overtravel that virtually guarantees reliable function, irrespective of how dirty the weapon is or how substandard the ammunition is. (AK-47, AKM, etc.)

A combination screw-driver/firing-pin protrusion gauge. (Mosin-Nagant bolt tool)

A 30-caliber rifle cartridge that was rimmed to ease headspace issues. (7.62x54R)

Ok, the last couple ones are kind of a joke (had to work the MN in there somehow). And admittedly some of these projects were not successful (too-high pilot workload in the Ka-50, tremendous expense with little subsequent advantage (Alfa-class). I'm very proud of American technical achievements, and have great respect for the engineers of Germany, France, Austria, Italy, Great Britain, and Japan, but there's something about the Russian combination of pessimistic realism and resultant overengineering and a design approach not always overly-burdened by "what worked before" that I like.:)

Mal H
March 9, 2006, 11:54 PM
About the "Shotgun Kept In Space Station" - I haven't read every post here, but there seems to be a misconception about it. The shotgun isn't kept in the ISS, it is stowed, unloaded, in the Soyuz up/down vehicle. It probably hasn't been taken from its storage compartment for years and is never taken into the ISS (or MIR when it was manned).

default's excellent post above reminded me that the Russian K36D ejection seat is now used, with modifications, in US fighter planes. Their technology was extensively tested and found to be superior to anything we (NATO countries) had.

Maxwell
March 10, 2006, 06:05 AM
The shotgun isn't kept in the ISS, it is stowed, unloaded, in the Soyuz up/down vehicle.

I would dare say 90% of weapons are kept the same way in America. In its storage box, unloaded, in the closet or a drawer.

What I find amusing out of all this is that russia and nasa have never exactly been rkba fans, they are also alarmingly weight conscious. Yet one sees the need to be ready "just in case" while the other lets it slide despite the non-pc nature of guns in space.

Stiletto Null
March 10, 2006, 06:59 AM
The Mosin bolt tool makes a wonderful Mauser took, too.

TOO BAD THE FRONT BARREL BAND ON MY M48A IS TOO TIGHT!!!

***

Uhh...right.

Recoil impulse on a .45ACP: about 3.9N·s. P = mv, so given P = 3.9N·s and m for an astronaut will be around 60kg, that gives a v of about...0.065m/s. 6.5cm/s, or about 2.5in/s.

That's not exactly "bouncing off the walls" speed.

Also, shotguns wouldn't pattern at 3LY, both because their shot cups wouldn't open up and because they wouldn't reach escape velocity. Fired on a tangent trajectory, maybe a really fast round (.22-250?) could break out of Earth's gravity well, but it still wouldn't make it out of the solar system.

Space is BIG, guys. :p

Tankcommander
March 10, 2006, 08:14 AM
Remember Nasa spent a fortune to develop a pen that writes in 0-gee.
The Russians brought a pencil.:)

With all the problems that are looming with space junk what will happen with all the buckshot in orbit from all the skeet shooting. or do you use earth as you back stop.

TC

ABTOMAT
March 10, 2006, 01:20 PM
NASA used pencils and the space pen was developed privately. When it was ready, they called up both the US and Russians and sold a ton to each.

Onmilo
March 10, 2006, 04:21 PM
I can envision some astronaut firing the rifle barrel and having the recoil break that spiffy buttplate/blade protector on the machete/buttstock which could cause a fairly nasty wound.

cordex
March 10, 2006, 05:55 PM
Onmilo,
I can envision some astronaut firing the rifle barrel and having the recoil break that spiffy buttplate/blade protector on the machete/buttstock which could cause a fairly nasty wound.
Is feature!
Tink ... Yuri and Boris stranded in vilderness. Boris has foot gnawed half off by rabid volf. Both are veak from lack of food and exaustion. How to amputate foot, eh? Take protector off and use two loads of 20 gauge, that's how!

thorazine
March 10, 2006, 06:47 PM
I always wondered how bad it would smell if you farted in your spacesuit. :eek:

Willo
April 16, 2006, 04:50 PM
dude that russian space gun is cool but it needs some rails so they can tac it out. ;) :barf:

Brass Fetcher
April 16, 2006, 05:33 PM
+1 on the Russian engineering.

Despite the gawdy looks (to some) of some of their equipment, what is of first importance is "did it work?" I think this is where the primary difference between the US and the Eastern Bloc (and most of the rest of the world) arise : we have had a condition of general peace (no invasions of the US) and great prosperity for the last 150 years, the Former Soviet Union countries have been subjected to war and hard economic times for most of this time period. Like they say, adversity is the best teacher, and I think that much can be learned from the Eastern bloc example(s).

KC&97TA
April 16, 2006, 07:31 PM
We need to put a M16/M41 on the moon, and it definetly needs surefire and ACOG on it; so that both companies will be able to run ads in the guns mags bragging

Willo
April 16, 2006, 09:55 PM
0.0" of bullet drop at 6 billion miles!

k_semler
April 16, 2006, 11:24 PM
*** they need a shotgun in OUTER SPACE for? Afraid of the Aliens, (not the ones walking across the US/Mex border), or something? :what: :rolleyes: If they can travel LIGHTYEARS to invade earth, I don't think a 14" shotgun is going to be of much use there. :banghead:

Stiletto Null
April 17, 2006, 07:35 AM
In space? They don't.

The problem is that sometimes they land in bear or wolf country. :)

snafu_72
April 17, 2006, 08:53 AM
When I trained as a SSDG (Space-Shuttle Door Gunner) we were issued one of these as a back up weapon in case our lithium-hydroxide powered, laser-range finder, heat-seeking, recoil-buffered double-barreled plasma cannon/shotgun and Pez dispenser went down with a bad case of the the wobblies.

:rolleyes:

Beachmaster
April 17, 2006, 10:11 AM
We need to put a M16/M41 on the moon

Don't think we didn't test a weapon on the moon!

jerkyman45
April 17, 2006, 01:35 PM
Neil Armstrong went hunting on the moon. The carcas he brought back was resurected and is now Hillary Clinton.

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