Thug holding your wife/girlfriend at gunpoint...

[Davo]

You hear unusual noises while at home with just your wife/gf, arm yourself, and arrive in a back room of your home to find a bad guy with a gun to your wife/gf. Youve suprised him, and now hes using your loved one as a shield. You are not an action movie hero, and would never take a shot even if its a shot you could make "at the range". The thug states "Drop the gun or she dies!":eek:
What on earth do you do? If you surrender your weapon, your family is now at the mercy of an armed nut-one who is even more amped now that he was just looking down the barrel of your gun. If you do not surrender, your now in a standoff. You have not called 911, as your instinct was to run to your loved ones aid. The phone is in another room. You also have no idea what this guy wants, he could just be a thief, he could be a killer.
I am sure this scenario is rare, but its among my worst case scenarios. I am not SWAT, even on a good day. What would you do and why?

[matthew.g.george]

Go all "Kayser Soze" and shoot the wife/gf, then him... then hunt down anyone he has ever had personal contact with...

[Jubei]

Shoot through her. She'll understand, even if it is a fatal wound.:D

In all reality, I couldn't make that call until I was faced with it.

Jubei

[HankB]

You are not an action movie hero, and would never take a shot even if its a shot you could make "at the range". By specifying this you're unrealistically limiting the response. This type of hostage situation will be at VERY close range, you don't need to hit a golfball at 300 meters, just a softball at 2 or 3 meters. If you can't do that, you shouldn't have a gun.

As for the scenario itself, it's a bad situation - very bad. If you comply with the BG's demands, there's an excellent chance you and your SO are both dead.

Run away? Can you outrun the BG's bullet?

Me, I'd try to distract the BG by talking to him, at the same time closing the distance even more. At some point, while I'm still talking, I will, without warning, right in the middle of a sentence - make a headshot.

There are NO guaranteed responses that end up with both you and your SO getting out of this OK - but I think my response is the "least bad" of several bad alternatives.

[Rockrivr1]

First you have to think for a second about how much life insurance you wife has on her. They you have to think about whether you'd like to keep her around or have the 6 figures you'll get from insurance. Then you have to factor in kids and whether you'll be able to take care of them without her. But then again, you'll have the 6 figure insurance policy to hire a nany. Then by the time your done thinking about it, you wife is dead, you shoot the bad guy dead and your already thinking about what the insurance companies phone number is before the bodies hit the floor. ;)

Ok Ok, before I get flamed I'm just kidding. Seriously though. The last thing I would do is put the gun down. These hostage situations never work out in your favor if your the hostage. Dead because you had a gun battle with a bad guy seem better to me then being dead because the bad guy slit your throat while you were tied up watching you family be assaulted.

[DKSuddeth]

When he says "drop the gun or she dies"
You say "You'll be dead before she hits the floor"

[Davo]

Hank B, one physiological responce the human body goes through when the CNS is suddenly and severely traumatized is a massive "tensing", several of the bodies muscles flex/extend at once. You may have seen this with a head shot rabbit, or more realisticly a person involved in a bad traffic accident. There is a very real possibility that the gun held by the suddenly dead bad guy could involuntarily fire as he falls like a ton of bricks. If the gun was held away from her and I could see the opportunity for a shot with some degree of saftey to her of course I would take it. I think that is unlikley to happen though.
My instinct is to NOT surrender my weapon, and perhaps knowing that the thug realizes his only bargaining chip (and frankly now his only reason for still being alive) is being held in front of him.

[MrTwigg]

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=175795

[Riz58]

I have told my wife and kids that I am not going to let some kook leave the house with them; that they are for sure dead if he takes them.

We have a code word, and when they hear that word as a command to the bad guy, they totally relax and drop to the floor. It is a technique a martial arts expert told me they use to get out of full nelsons.

Hopefully the BG will 1. Be surprised when the person disappears from his arms, or 2 bends over trying to hang onto the person. Either way it should open up a clear line of fire and get the gun away from their head.

[Templar223]

Is this a trick question?

Obviously the answer would be different for ex-girlfriends and current ones.

Also, most of the guys I know would shoot. They win no matter who dies.

;-)

J

[Powderman]

Riz58 has the correct response.

NEVER give up your gun. Your chance of survivability falls to zero, and the hostage might as well be dead too.

And you can make the shot. Train for it and prepare for it.

[DavidBR]

NEVER give up your weapon! Once you do you have empowered the BG and placed yourself (and anyone else in the house) at their "mercy" in addition to the wife/gf.

Do not allow yourself to get tunnel vision. Watch out for accomplices.

Negotiate. Speak quietly and softly. The best resolution is to defuse the situation without gunfire. Always remember that your top priority is the safety of your loved one(s), so it doesn't matter if the BG gets away as long as they don't take a hostage with them. The BG doesn't want to get shot any more than you do. Everything is negotiable EXCEPT: 1) you are not giving up your weapon and 2) they may not leave with a hostage.

You are under no obligation to keep any promises you make except 1 & 2 above. While you are negotiating stay aware for a clear shot. If the negotiations do not seem to be working or are breaking down, take the shot! If they are willing to walk away, let them go.

That's my .02

[geekWithA.45]

Never surrender your weapon, (except as a distraction to draw a BUG)
Never allow yourself to be bound.

Also, the wife & I have worked this out. The shooter counts 1...2....BOOM. By then, the idea is to have cleared the impact area as best as can.

I explained it as...you will not hear "3". It will be replaced with a very loud BOOOM!. The bad guy will not hear "3" either.

[Davo]

Excellent points, especially Mr. Twigg and DavidBR. This is something I need to think of now, not when in a bad situation.

[hso]

I agree that the approach would be to tell the BG, "If you shoot her I shoot you dead and no one wins. I won't turn over this gun and let you shoot both of us so get out right now and you won't die."

[engineer151515]

The thug states "Drop the gun or she dies!"


No


Let her go.

BOOM


BOOM BOOM


Dear - go call the police.

[Hemicuda]

My girlfriend and her kids all know that in that situation, upon the release of the codeword, they go limp and drop like a sack of grain...

I then reverse-mozambique the BG... one to the head, 2 to the COM...

under NO circumstance do I relinquish my firearm, 'cause we're all dead then...

[DavidBR]

I hadn't thought of code words, etc.

Obviously I need to speak with the Mrs. but better to be prepared for something that never happens than have to improvise when the s*** hits the fan.

We have a fire plan for the family, why not a home invasion plan?

[ball3006]

will lose. If the perp has not shot at you by this time, you have the upper hand. My wife and I do the "drop to the floor" defense as stated above. We have phrases to destract a perp, like "hon, give him your wallet, I left mine at home". When he turns to her BLAM. And vica versa as we both carry. A perp can have my gun after it is empty or from my cold hands........I will defend my wife and 4 cats with my life.......and, I am VERY good at it......chris3

[Hemicuda]

of course, then there's my mom, dad, sis, and me...

BG grabs one of us, the others will just wait for the "hostage" to pull their own gun and shoot backwards... the BG will never know what happened... :D

[cpileri]

'I am convinced that every man among you would rise up and tear me down from my post if I was for one minute to contemplate parley or surrender. If this long, island struggle of ours is to end; let it end only when each of us lies choking in his own blood on the ground!"
-W. Churchill

[choochboost]

We have a code word, and when they hear that word as a command to the bad guy, they totally relax and drop to the floor.
Might work if the BG has a gun to her head, but not if he has a knife to her throat!:(

[ArmedBear]

If he has a knife to her throat, I'd be more comfortable taking the shot, though.

She could take care of him once he's wounded; it takes a lot less to pull a trigger than use a knife on a woman who is strong and quick like my wife, once he's shot. More than likely, it'd be a head shot anyway.

If I drop the gun, I figure he'll kill one or both of us anyway.

What he DOESN'T figure on, though, is someone icy enough to pull the trigger. He wouldn't hurt her right away because he would know that means he's a dead man. That buys you a few seconds. Just got to hang onto yourself for that long, squeeze off like you've done a thousand times, and it's over. I sometimes shoot at shotgun hulls with a revolver for fun/practice; if I can stay steady I could easily splatter his head if I have a few inches of clearance.

You can (and I would) shake uncontrollably for the next half hour, as long as you keep your head on for a few seconds. Could I shut down my fear for that long? I hope so, if I ever have to. It is amazing, though, what you can do when you have to. Truly.

This scenario is a good reason not to have only a shotgun for HD.

[choochboost]

If he has a knife to her throat, I'd be more comfortable taking the shot, though.
Same here.

[MrTwigg]

Excellent points, especially Mr. Twigg and DavidBR. This is something I need to think of now, not when in a bad situation.

A tip 'O the Stetson must go to PAX who is the originator of the thread I linked my post to.

She is a very insightful lady.

[kbheiner7]

I've actually thought about this a time or two. I'd make it very clear that the only way he was getting out of there alive is to let her go.

Because my wife is only 5' 3", I'd probably have a clear shot at his head.

It would be more difficult tactically if the BG had one of my small children and was holding them up in front of his head.

[Riz58]

Actually the drop technique works with the knife to the throat. In that situation, wife/daughter grabs the wrist and arm of the hand with the knife and clenches down. (Even a weight lifter cannot pull the knife across a throat at that point.) Turn the head and drop!

The result is that she will either slip out from under the arm, or her dead weight will pull the BG over, clearing the shot.

[choochboost]

My point was that simply dropping is a bad idea with a knife at your throat, and if we're going to run our family through training scenarios, we need to consider the differences between a knife and a handgun.

[rnovi]

This is a very, very scary situation to be in. If she was a hostage I know this, the only way the thug lives is if he let's go and leaves. My wife is a tough woman who has told me in no uncertain terms - He Dies.

It's a scary proposition. I spend a lot of time at the range working with my handguns and my handgun skills to be able to put a shot exactly where I want it. I ride a motorcycle and regularly lane split among cage drivers (it's legal in Cali folks. And it's not crazy - trust me on that.) however not a day goes by that I don't see some nimrod do something stupid. The result of this is adrenaline control. You can't ride with masive adrenaline pumping through your body. I do think I have enough control over my body to be able to get that one clean shot off.

Another, sad, consideration is that this thug needs to be put down. If he hurts one person he will go out and do it again. I wouldn't want this to ever happen again to anyone else.

I do however love the suggestion of the codeword. It makes a lot of sense on a lot of levels.

Do I ever want to be in that position? Hell no. Noone does. I want to die an old man after a full life and I want to live out the rest of my life with my beloved wife.

[hurrakane212]

If my 1911 loving wife hasn't shot the BG yet then my first step is to keep the BG engaged in conversation wilst getting a clear sight picture, as soon as I have the target locked on, fire mid-sentence. My wife is 5'2'', so I should have a decent headshot. Also, I hope to have a sight picture before my wife tries to rip his "dangly bits" off because believe me, she would. She is not the kind to die without a fight. That's one reason I love her, she has such a fire. Oh and she likes Guns, martial arts, video games, fast cars, and action movies.~Nathan :evil:

[TallPine]

This is going to sound harsh, but I have preached and preached and preached to my wife about personal safety and home security (things like not opening the door to strangers, carrying her own gun when outside on our land, etc) , but she mostly dismisses my warnings as fear-mongering.:banghead:

If this kind of situation ever became reality then it is probably because she wasn't looking out for herself while I wasn't there. I'm dang sure not giving up my weapon and becoming another victim.

Hopefully things would work out for the best. I can tell you that anyone who threatens a member of my family with a deadly weapon probably isn't leaving alive:evil:

[Kentucky]

I have noticed several people mention that they would be talking to the BG and shoot in mid-sentence. This is actually backwards. You want HIM to be talking and blast him then. You dont shoot as quickly when you are talking, and the BG will actually react a little slower if he is talking.

This is something I first learned in my martial art studies, and then was re-iterated in some of my weapons training. Me and some of my buddies do a lot of scenario training and I have seen it work over and over.

Love this thread!!

[JohnKSa]

there's an excellent chance you and your SO are both dead.If that were the worst possible outcome, I might consider putting the gun down. It's not the worst possible outcome by a long shot. The worst possible outcome is that you are tied up and get to watch the BG rape and torture your wife, maybe kill her in front of you depending on his mood, do what he wants to your kids and then leave. And yes, that kind of thing has happened.

People get all confused about what is causing the problem, what is the threat, in this kind of situation.

The threat is not your gun--your gun is not causing the problem. Therefore, eliminating your gun from the picture can't solve the problem. The threat is the bad guy. He must be eliminated or controlled before anything else constructive can happen.

[CAnnoneer]

I would never surrender my weapons.

Simple calculation: disarmament means the number of hostages increases by at least one; so does the number of likely victims. Fear is the only deterrent. No guns in my hands, no fear in the perp.

[Sinsaba]

(Logic speaking here) ...

I've thought of this and the answer is (if I were to remember at the time) ...

If you shoot her you die, if you turn around and walk I can only call the police.

[Furncliff]

"Thug holding your wife/girlfriend at gunpoint..."


Not if my dog has a breath left him.

[KC&97TA]

the thug doesn't expect you to be 'cold blooded' enough to walk up smoothly and shoot him in the head w/o saying a word - this beats everything that your body tells you in a situation of that caliber

[Double Naught Spy]

My wife and I have discussed this at length. At least for the situations we can purceive, giving up a gun because one spouse is held hostage is not reasonable. The spouse with the gun does not have to shoot as there may not be a realistic shot that can be made in the given circumstances. That spouse has the options of retreating to safety, holding ground and waiting for an opportunity, or attempting some other tactic to bring resolution other than giving up the gun being held or exposing said spouse to more danger that would increase the danger to the spouse not being held hostage.

We deem it critical that one spouse survive as a matter of raising the children. Having the spouse not actually being held at gun point to give up a gun is not a realistic way of assuring the survival of either spouse or both spouses. When negotiating at gunpoint with a bad guy who is breaking the law, you have no real reason to believe that giving in to his wishes of relinguishing your weapon will actually result in a happy ending for all involved.

I may be screwed if I am the one being held hostage. My wife's preferred weapon of choice is a Rem 870 with an 18" barrel and 00 buck. Well, at least she could settle two problems with one shot anyway. :)

[choochboost]

the thug doesn't expect you to be 'cold blooded' enough to walk up smoothly and shoot him in the head w/o saying a word
I think something is being over looked here. If the BG is bent on killing, not only will he use your wife as cover but the person that is in real danger is you - the gun-weilding home owner who is standing out in the open wrestling with the decision to shoot or not. He'll shoot you right over her shoulder!

[GoBrush]

Without hesitation I charge the guy put my gun to his head and pull the trigger. Hopefully the wife or girlfriend knows what I am going to do because we have played the what if game and ducks the same time I make my move. Attacker will most likely switch from gun to her head to focus on me and before he can complete the switch and fire he has a 40 caliber hole in the side of his head. I know there is risk but that is my predetermined response any hesitation on my part would be fatal and because I have already thought through the senerio and I know what I am going to do bad guy does not know what I am going to do I take the risk.

Not a very good senerio to be in but that is my answer.

[choochboost]

I don't see how charging him will work under any circumstance. If you're starting from at a distance, the BG shoots you coming at him. If you're fairly close already and charge him, he may have a knee-jerk reaction and even unintentionally put a bullet through your wife's head. Sure, you get him too but your wife is dead. That's why shooting works so well......bullets move faster than we do.

[LAK]

You are not an action movie hero
Correct.
and would never take a shot even if its a shot you could make "at the range"
Not correct.
The thug states "Drop the gun or she dies!"

And it behooves people with spouse and family to plan and even drill for this - including allowing for more than one badguy and hostage etc. A hostage can "feint", drop, or break among options. This is decided by and on a signal which is initiated by the hostage - at which immediate point your business is to land one or more good central nervous system hits. I would aim for the point where the lower eyeline meets the nose, or anywhere at het latitutde as far back as either ear depending on the angle of the target.

The thug will likely die.

Risky? Yes, certainly. But far less risky than throwing you and one or more hostages at the mercy of a vicious thug who may not only have already decided to kill you; but may have other recreational plans before he does.

The rabbit people see it differently of course, but the phrase "over my dead body" comes to mind. And yes, there are some things worth dying for.

--------------------------------------------

http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org

[chopinbloc]

wait for him to bleed out. if he has the love of my life in a head lock it's probably because she already shot to slide lock. otherwise, i'd shoot if i had a minimum of three inches between her vital areas and his. if not i'd keep him talking until i got what i wanted - the perp, horizontal, covered by a white sheet. no other solution has any reasonable chance of a positive outcome.

[Nematocyst]

This is why we spend time at the range shooting lots of boxes of rnds at 7 yds, eh?

If you're that close (< 7 yds), then just put one into his ugly skull. :cool:

<gasp> Did I really say that on a family friendly forum?

Such a scenario is so improbable in my space
(for reasons that I'd have to kill you if I told you)
that i'm able to joke about it. :D

YMMV.

:scrutiny:

Nem

[gunsmith]

would know that I'm going to shoot.

I wouldn't even negotiate as soon as I see the situation I aim & squeeze.


edited to add, I was a victim when I lived in NYC, I cooperated and they stabbed me in the back after they tied me up...and they laughed about it too...never again!

[benEzra]

You hear unusual noises while at home with just your wife/gf, arm yourself, and arrive in a back room of your home to find a bad guy with a gun to your wife/gf. Youve suprised him, and now hes using your loved one as a shield. You are not an action movie hero, and would never take a shot even if its a shot you could make "at the range". The thug states "Drop the gun or she dies!"
What on earth do you do? If you surrender your weapon, your family is now at the mercy of an armed nut-one who is even more amped now that he was just looking down the barrel of your gun. If you do not surrender, your now in a standoff. You have not called 911, as your instinct was to run to your loved ones aid. The phone is in another room. You also have no idea what this guy wants, he could just be a thief, he could be a killer.

I am sure this scenario is rare, but its among my worst case scenarios. I am not SWAT, even on a good day. What would you do and why?
My wife has informed me in no uncertain terms that if such a situation ever arises, that I am NEVER to surrender to the bad guy, and that I am to take the shot as soon as I get one (and she's not likely to be compliant, either).

If a violent criminal isn't looking to escape, and instead wants both of you disarmed and completely in his power, putting yourself at his mercy isn't a good plan.

You are correct that this is a nightmare scenario, but the worst possible outcomes in this scenario all result from putting yourself under the complete control of the criminal.

Look up the transcripts of the BTK serial killer confession and you'll find that this isn't all that different from what he did. Threatened the family and promised that everyone would be OK if they surrendered and let him tie them up. Then he tortured and murdered them all, including their little kids. I will NOT voluntarily give a known violent criminal in MY house absolute power over me, my wife, and my kids.

[Mizzle187]

Let me ask you this is the BG wearing a mask?

[pax]

Go back and re-read JohnKSa's comments (http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=2303196&postcount=33). He nailed it.

pax

[MrTwigg]

The threat is the bad guy. He must be eliminated or controlled before anything else constructive can happen.

[dfaugh]

I have noticed several people mention that they would be talking to the BG and shoot in mid-sentence. This is actually backwards. You want HIM to be talking and blast him then. You dont shoot as quickly when you are talking, and the BG will actually react a little slower if he is talking.

This is something I first learned in my martial art studies, and then was re-iterated in some of my weapons training. Me and some of my buddies do a lot of scenario training and I have seen it work over and over

Actually this is just the OPPOSITE of what I was trained to do, in various types of martial arts training. ACTION is ALWAYS better than REACTION.

Ever been sucker punched? I have (before I took martial arts training)...It always happened when the aggressor was talking. Natural reaction is to relax slightly when someone is talking, and to assume they won't act until they finish the sentence..I've proven this (by disarming people w/ weapons) many times. I have them hold a knife 1/2 from my throat, and tell them to stick it in, as soon as I move. No way can they do it...I just keep talking about it then move in the middle of a sentence.

As for the scenario we're talking about, all of my family know enough to "make a move" under these circumstances, to move themselves away fro the BGs line of fire. I then pop the idiot, just under the nose, which will stop any involuntary reactions.

[pax]

MrTwigg ~

Actually, I meant the entire post. JohnKSa just put it really well.

pax

[para.2]

I have been over this situation mentally, and on the range many times. With both my wife and my children as the "hostage". I would kill him without hesitation, negotiation, or remorse, whatever the outcome to my loved one or me. Someone actively threatens me or mine, they forfeit their right to continue breathing.

[mmike87]

Well, I am NOT going to drop my gun. Once your drop your gun you have NO options and NO say in how the situation progresses afterwards.

[HighVelocity]

I saw this thread and asked my wife what she thought I should do, before I posted my answer.

Wife says; "If he's still standing by the time you find him and you don't shoot him immediately, without hesitation, then I'm will take the BG's gun away and shoot him myself." :eek: :evil:

I know she means it too. I imagine what would likely happen is I'd find the BG on the floor in the fetal position bleeding from a head-butt, screaming in agony while holding his most prized body parts and begging for mercy.

[MrTwigg]

Oh. He does make the point rather well.


(Shutting up now.) :o

[simon691]

Keep pointing your guns at the BG while getting yourself behind something like a couch, kitchen island, or a wall and say, "Honey, this is what cheating gets you into". Load the whole clip on them both.:D

[aufevermike]

Doesn't this all change considering what most people use for home defense...... a shotgun??????? From many of the posts that I have read on home defense, most people only use the shotgun so they can make their way to the gun safe.(not me)
Say you were stil in bed but you wife was already up having coffee and she opend the door to a stranger or that the BG just busted in and the only thing you come out of the bedroom with is a shotgun, what then?

However, If I am walking into this situation from outdoors, then there will be no hesitation drawing my side arm.

[tellner]

Might work if the BG has a gun to her head, but not if he has a knife to her throat!

Actually, it would probably work better with the knife. The relation of whatever he was going to cut or stab will change suddenly. Before he hurts her he'll have to reorient.

I won't say I would never put down my gun. I might put down the one that he sees :) I might also comply at that moment if I thought that the circumstances dictated it as the best way for my wife to stay alive. What's more likely is that I'd get his attention divided and shoot him when I had the opportunity - probably in the middle of a phrase like "Dear G-d, please don't sh" *bang* or give her a chance to make her play; we have a couple codewords for things like "general quarters, prepare to repel boarders" and "It's hit the fan. Go wild." Depends way to much on the particulars.

[Biker]

A shotgun will put a load of buck into a small hole at room distances and is easier to shoot accurately than a handgun.
Biker

[choochboost]

Quote:
Might work if the BG has a gun to her head, but not if he has a knife to her throat!

Actually, it would probably work better with the knife. The relation of whatever he was going to cut or stab will change suddenly. Before he hurts her he'll have to reorient.
It would not work with a knife because what we were talking about is dropping straight down so that there would be a clean shot. If there is a knife to your throat and you simply drop.......guess what happens.

[Biker]

She likely just gets a scar. It's a lot harder to get to the carotid than Hollywood shows it to be.
Biker

[choochboost]

Yeah that might be all. It would depend on how sharp the knife was and how much downward pressure was put on it as she dropped. I guess it would also depend on how he was holding the knife. The worst would be if he was right-handed reaching underneath her chin with the blade against the left right side. She's get cut pretty good like that. Where did he get the knife? If it is his and he's a typical burnout criminal its probably not the finest carving implement known to man. Did he get the knife from your kitchen and is it one of those self-sharpening deals? There's a lot of variables, and although its good to discuss what we would do to prepare ourselves, we can't be so "prepared" that we devise an inflexible plan of defense and fail to consider the unique variables and circumstances that might present themselves. The same would apply to the BG having a gun. If he pointed the gun anywhere than her head for even a second, that would be the time to pull the trigger on him for sure.

[Tiny in Ohio]

I have thought about this, and talked it over with my family. The only way they are leaving the house is to go to the police station to file the report. There is no way a BG is taking my wife or my daughter to perform God only knows what, then torture them, mutilate them and scatter their bodies over 3 states. In this scenario the BG dies, and if need be "I" will be the one killing my loved ones, to save them from the above scenario. Harsh, and it sickens me to think like that, but it is ultimately better for them than going with a bad guy.

[thorazine]

Thug holding your wife/girlfriend at gunpoint...

Pull out your CCW Grenade (tm) and exclaim, "She dies, I die and you die!"

If the "thug" accuses you of bluffing start rambling on about "Martha Stewart living..." (while pulling the pin and keeping a firm hold on the striker lever - after all you are sort of bluffing). This will give the impression that you are a nutcase with nothing to live for.

Note: A CCW Molotov Cocktail (tm) can be used as a substitution to the grenade however when you begin to ramble on about "Martha Stewart" the lighter in your opposite hand needs to be lit and in close proximity to the rag hanging out of the mouth of the bottle. You may also want to assume a good throwing position -- make it appear as you are winding up in preparation for the toss.

[Taurus 66]

How much trust would you put in a laser on a handgun of excellent quality? Say your favorite 1911, or .40? Could you trust its accuracy? ... and I'm talking 2 inches or less at 25 feet spelling the difference between life and death.

The first shot must be "lights out". Anything less gives him time to carry out the threat on his victim.

[Double Naught Spy]

Doesn't this all change considering what most people use for home defense...... a shotgun??????? From many of the posts that I have read on home defense, most people only use the shotgun so they can make their way to the gun safe.(not me)

Go back and reread. Most people claim to only want to use a pistol to fight their way back to a rifle (in the gun safe). Fighting one's way back to a rifle with a pistol is something taught by many instructors, but certainly made a more common consideration by larger schools such as Thunder Ranch that undoubtedly repeat the expressions several times during pistol courses. I seem to recall it being repeated just about every day while there.


Say you were stil in bed but you wife was already up having coffee and she opend the door to a stranger or that the BG just busted in and the only thing you come out of the bedroom with is a shotgun, what then?

You have a couple of very good options with a shotgun. Either you have patterned your gun and you know how it will shot with the ammo you have chosen (mine gives me 1 each of spread for every 5 feet traveled, or about 9" at 15 yards. At 5 yards, I can aim at the ear on the bad guy on the side opposite of the spouse and only hit the bad guy and wall behind the bad guy via the spread. The only real concern and it is a valid concern is the trajectory of the shot cup.

The other option is that you either run a slug as your # 1 round, #2, or jack one in as needed. With a slug at ranges less than 50 yards, it is just a rifle that makes really big holes.

[old4x4]

We've had this one worked out for a while. I look past the person exitedly (as if someone is approaching), she sees this and drops and the BG is very confused. He will probably try to turn and see who may be coming and will be further distracted by the drop. Scrambled skull (I don't say brains, because the BG probably has very little to none)

[mmike87]

I just asked my wife what she'd LIKE me to do. She said, without hesitation:

"You'd better <expletive> shoot him before he shoots me!"

Hmmm ... need lots more ammo, practice, and training. It will be expensive, I told her - but she's worth it.

[Srigs]

This situation is why you carry two guns and you talk to your wife about what to do! Go limp and fall to the floor why I shoot the perp with my primary or if I put it down with my backup will do the job.

Say the perp has a knife to your wifes neck. Say, 'Please don't hurt my wife" and "you can have my gun." I drop the mag on the primary and push the gun over (mag disconnect safety). When he goes to pick it up (has to release the wife), I shoot him with the back up :neener:

The backup, by the way, uses the same type of mags. You keep all the ammo for putting holes in the perp. :evil: :evil: :evil:

[Taurus 66]

Aw shucks Srigs! You've been watching Hollywood, haven't you? http://www.atforumz.com/images/smilies/rolling_eyes.gif

[CAnnoneer]

Srigs,

The problem with that scenario is that once your gun is disabled, the perp may decide to give your wife a Shanghai bowtie all the same. That would reduce the number of opponents to deal with to one...

Compliance guarantees nothing.

Let me repeat this because it is important.

Compliance guarantees nothing.

[Davo]

Thorazine I like your shuffle. Seriously though there are a couple things Im taking away from this thread.
1. Do not surrender your weapon
2. A long gun is the way to go-know what your weapons will do
3. Keep communications open
4. Go over the situation with your loved ones (while trying somehow not to scare them)
5. Obviously-if you commit, its all or nothing
I also want to mention that this is not about what a great shot you are and how over-the-shoulder-double-tap-headshots just come naturally for you.:uhoh: This is one of those situations where I doubt those with that much confidence.

[Duramaximum]

But what if you were an action hero?

Clint Eastwood scenario:

Thug: "Drop the gun or she dies!"

You : "Being this is a .44 Magnum, (one of) the most powerful handgun(s) in the world and will blow your head clean off. You've got to ask yourself a question. 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya' punk?"

Blow his head clean off.

Kurt Russell scenario:

You: You've got a hold of my wife, there. I'd like her back.

Thug: Is that a fact?

You: That's a fact.

Thug: Well I'm real scared.

You: You're damn right, you're scared. I can see that in your eyes.

Thug: Alright...

You: Go ahead! Go ahead! Skin it! Skin that smokewagon and see what happens!

Thug: Listen mister, I'm getting awful tired of your...

Proceed to slap Thug in mid-sentence.

You: I'm getting tired of your gas, now jerk that pistol and go to work.

Proceed to slap Thug again.

You: I said, throw-down boy!

Proceed to slap Thug third time.

You: Are you going to do something or just stand there and bleed? No? I didn't think so. Alright youngster, out you go.

Proceed to take Thug by the ear and throw him out the door.

You: Now don't come back, ever!

Steven Segal scenario:

Thug: "Drop the gun or she dies!"

You: "I'm about to show you what it's like to be a victim."


Proceed to show him what it is like to be a shooting victim.

This is why the shooting range is an excellent dating location. Take your girlfriends/wives with you. Give her a weapon if you absolutely have to leave her alone.

[Srigs]

Cannoneer,

"Srigs,

The problem with that scenario is that once your gun is disabled, the perp may decide to give your wife a Shanghai bowtie all the same. That would reduce the number of opponents to deal with to one...

Compliance guarantees nothing.

Let me repeat this because it is important.

Compliance guarantees nothing."

It is called a ruse not compliance! You need to get the upper hand by changing the situation to enable your wife to get loose and you to shoot the perp with the backup gun.

[Adept]

Well, speaking for myself, and most other non-Americans, I won't have a gun to start with.

At best, we might have a household knife (pocket knife, kitchen knife, etc). I know where my personal boundaries are, and how I plan on enforcing them, but I'd like to know how others here would deal with the situation if they were unarmed, and how they would deal with it if they were armed with a knife or other improvised weapon.

[mordechaianiliewicz]

I aim, front sight, squeeze trigger, and take him down with a head shot. Yes, this is dangerous, but this scenario is a lot worse if you give up your weapon. Then, maybe he rapes her, and shoots you to death after torturing both of you.

A person sadistic enough to use a homeowner as a body shield while threatening you is capable of a lot worse. Stay calm, take your shot, call the cops.

[LAK]

aufevermikeDoesn't this all change considering what most people use for home defense...... a shotgun??????? From many of the posts that I have read on home defense, most people only use the shotgun so they can make their way to the gun safe.(not me)
Say you were stil in bed but you wife was already up having coffee and she opend the door to a stranger or that the BG just busted in and the only thing you come out of the bedroom with is a shotgun, what then?

However, If I am walking into this situation from outdoors, then there will be no hesitation drawing my side arm
Things are anything but hopeless with a shotgun - even if loaded with buckshot as opposed to slugs. Harder to handle for some, to sight (depending on equipment), and less precise overall perhaps. Used by anyone proficient with it, at the right moment, it is likely to be very decisive.

Personally I would prefer a rifle. We could go to the other end of the spectrum and consider the .22 rimfires - rifle or handgun. Very easy to handle, usually easy to sight and usually very precise. Again, anyone proficient with the arm, at the right moment, ought to be able to slip one through an exposed eyeball, through the adams apple, or up a nasal passage at across the room distances.
---------------------------------------------

http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org

[Nematocyst]

Personally I would prefer a rifle.I gotta concur: in this situation, with a beloved person as hostage, I'd probably take a rifle if I had a choice.

For personal protection with no hostage between me and a perp, I'll take my 870P every time. Love that pattern, even at 5 m or 15 m (yes, my studio is that deep).

But up close, with a hostage between me and said perp, given a choice between 12 ga, handgun & rifle (of any caliber), I'd probably take the latter.

Nem

[Byron Quick]

My wife will know me and know how I feel about hostage takers.

If she stays with me, then she agrees.

My stance is this: If I'm taken hostage, hold a funeral for me and then kill the hostage takers...by shooting through me if necessary. I don't think my survival is the most important thing in this scenario. I do believe that killing every one of any hostage takers right then and right there is the most important thing.

If a policy is developed of killing any hostage taker right then and right there, after a while with complete coverage of such events there will be a sharp decline of hostage taking.

Negotiations with hostage takers should run like this: Release your hostages unharmed and we'll kill you with a quick and merciful headshot. Harm any one of them and we'll gutshoot you and keep you alive on IV fluids while infection eats you alive over a period of weeks.

That might not get through to the first few hostage takers it's tried on. However, with proper media coverage, it will absolutely resonate with hostage takers by and by.

Someone has a gun to my head? Kill that lowlife. If I survive that's wonderful but take care of the most important business first.

Even scum can be trained by the proper techniques.

[Duramaximum]

"If you break into my house, I will shoot you. And you would much deal with me than my wife. My wife will shoot you and then spend thirty minutes telling you why she shot you." -Jeff Foxworthy

[motorep]

This is an event I practice for. Farthest distance in my house is 23 yards, call it 25, my handguns are sighted in at 25. Can I make the shot? Sure. Would I be able to? I hope so, you never know what you can do when you get that warm feeling down the inside of your leg. I hope I never know, but I practice for it.

[mountainclmbr]

First, you have to ask yourself, did she complain when you suggested buying that 600 Nitro Express engraved double rifle? After you answer that, you will know what to do!

[shooter 7]

Head visible? front sight, take the shot. no words. Negotiations over. That's why we practice. You don't negotiate w terrorists. Better to send them to the beyond. Where do you draw the line? Compliance w bg while deadly force is within my grasp?? I think not.

[jfruser]

We have kids. We take the shot.

[Adept]

So I'll ask again;

Same scenario. Neither you nor your wife is armed, except with any improvised weapons you might have grabbed.

How do you proceed?

[Jamie C.]

Neither you nor your wife is armed

Now you've gone waaaaay off into fantasy land.

One of us is ALWAYS armed.

Why? So we never have to deal with the above situation, of course.

And then there's also the 4 dogs....

The point being here that it's pretty easy to not get caught in an untenable situation...provided you don't take the mindset of "it'll never happen to me/us".

As for the first scenario.... the perp would get a bullet in the eye socket while I was in mid-sentence.
"Okay, just don't *BLAM* hurt her..."
"Honey, you okay?"

And yes, I can make the shot at any distance you can find in my house. Probably while half asleep. Hell, maybe even while completely asleep.


J.C.

[NineseveN]

To echo many others, you take the shot. Never disarm yourself.

[jfruser]

So I'll ask again;

Same scenario. Neither you nor your wife is armed, except with any improvised weapons you might have grabbed.

How do you proceed?
Hear that?.....That's me laughing my fundament off.

The other day, my wife raised the issue of a quick home invasion and suggested we keep other quick access safes around the house (beside the bedside one). We already have the guns. We are currently figuring out which quick access safes make the most sense for the rooms & drawers/cabinets we will use to conceal them. We'll have three quick access safes with 1+ firearm(s) per safe in a 1300 sqft house. That is in addition to what I'll be CCW-ing when I walk into the house.

So, that "improvised weapons you might have grabbed" will likely be a 1911, our weapon of choice.

I don't advise someone playing that game with my wife. If she thinks you're doing her or her's wrong, she can be mean as a snake.

Also, our two GSPs are starting to get very protective of our boy. We're going to have to put them in another room to punish him, as they try to intervene on his behalf by interposing their selves. They get upset by the whole deal.

[fiVe]

Another good, thought-provoking thread.

[John G]

Not armed? What's the next version of this scenario, "your wife is taken hostage and you have no hands?" :D

[Adept]

Yeah, thats hilarious guys. Not armed?! Not a possibility!

Just a reminder, the world is bigger than the USA, and not all our governments have as relaxed an appraoch to firearms or self defense tools.

So for those of us who cannot have the weapons you take for granted, what are your recomendations?

[Biker]

Break the law. What is the life of your wife worth to you?
Biker

[Adept]

Thats hardly useful advice, now, is it? Heading into the illegal firearms market is more likely to place you in danger than this scenario is likely to occur.

[Biker]

Don't ask if ya don't wanna hear. Again, I ask, what price on the life of your wife?
Biker

[tellner]

Yeah, thats hilarious guys. Not armed?! Not a possibility!

Just a reminder, the world is bigger than the USA, and not all our governments have as relaxed an appraoch to firearms or self defense tools.

So for those of us who cannot have the weapons you take for granted, what are your recomendations?

If you want to stay inside the law, never a bad position to start from if you like living at home and being able to go out for a beer, start from what is allowed. What sort of weapons or improvised tools can you legally own? Then take a look at the patterns of crime in your area. What sort of things are likely to happen to you? We always say "Don't spend so much time looking for goblins under rocks that you miss the bear standing on the path." Go from there.

[NineseveN]

Tellner, that is some sage advice.

And Adept, we don't take them for granted, at least most of the folks on this site don't. If weapons were illegal under my government, I would make it my most urgent endeavor to migrate to a government where they weren't. Easier said than done, I know, but most things worthwhile are. Keep safe.

[dpesec]

I'd take the head shot. Will I miss, most likley not, why beacuse I practice with the laser on.
Last week I shot 100 rds using the laser into an area of less than 2". I did this without aiming, just using the little red dot.

[ARperson]

Adept, unfortunately you'll never make your scenario a serious one here since most of our entire paradigm revolves around having firearms. I understand what you're trying to say, and think those that are blowing brown stuff out of their behinds about how they'd never be in that situation, government or no are not really thinking about how most of the rest of the world lives.

What they fail to realize is that the paradigm for most of the rest of the world does NOT involve firearms, an ability to have/possess them. Never has, likely never will.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. It's just not going to get the intelligent response it needs. Your question that is.

The irony is that most of the people on this board represent a small portion of the U.S. and you don't have to step inside the borders of a country that prohibits personal firearm ownership for this scenario to become a daily occurence. Just read the newspapers here.

It's too bad the "It'll never happen to me" argument still survives even in our "culture."

[Biker]

I wasn't aware that Adept was outside of the U.S...Somehow, I missed that part.
Apologies...
Biker

[Riz58]

Adept,

Tellner was correct with regard to making an evaluation of risks in your neighborhood. Any scenario I can think of will require closing the distance to very close range.

Suggestions: A strong pepper spray. It will probably nail both the BG and your wife, and may affect you indoors. Close and disarm the BG. Of course, you would need to train for this.

Close quarters and indoors a Little League baseball bat can be a powerful weapon. Spray with pepper and clobber him! (Hiking sticks also fit in this category, may be easier to handle, but would not have the same force of impact.)

Some Taser imitators are on the market. I do not know how effective they are. You might be able to obtain the real thing which allows you to shoot the barbs from a distance. Again, the wife might be hit, but it is hard to hang onto someone who is writhing in pain!

A cell phone (or walking phone) might be very effective. Dial 911, keep them on the line, describe the situation and the perp. From reading some other threads, it seems some BG's are more afraid of a cell phone and 911 than the gun! At that point, reason might prevail. "The cops are on the way. Let her go and you can disappear before they arrive and you will probably never be caught. Take her, it slows you down, and they will take the city apart looking for you and her!"

[Jamie C.]

Adept, unfortunately you'll never make your scenario a serious one here since most of our entire paradigm revolves around having firearms. I understand what you're trying to say, and think those that are blowing brown stuff out of their behinds about how they'd never be in that situation, government or no are not really thinking about how most of the rest of the world lives.

What they fail to realize is that the paradigm for most of the rest of the world does NOT involve firearms, an ability to have/possess them. Never has, likely never will.

First off, this is a forum dedicated to FIREARMS. This pretty much means any questions asked here concerning self defense are going to be answered with "gun" or something of the like somewhere in the response. If the person asking can't get a gun, for whatever reason, then questions on defense are probably best asked elsewhere, where the answers may not be so....biased.

Secondly, I've been carrying a pistol since before there was any CCL law at all.

The point here is that I felt I needed it, I acquired it, carried it, and was prepared to deal with the consequences if I had to use it.

Oh, and I did end up needing it a couple of times... but that's another matter.


J.C.

[iamhistory]

Good/interesting posts.........just curious as to the code words you've chosen if you happen to use that system.

What are some of them and what action/reaction do they signal?

[Riz58]

They can be anything you might say to the BG in the situation. One is the word "drop" as in "Drop the weapon!" Hearing the word, the victim goes limp and drops down.

Another might be " Let her go!" Same response. She "let's" her body fall to the floor.

Give it up. Your are not leaving. Use your imagination.

[choochboost]

If you're going to do the code word thing, you could use anything you wanted for a code word...even non-sensical jibberish. The BG will have this puzzled look on his face and meanwhile your wife takes a dive and you take the shot(s). This actually might be a better idea since there is less room for confusion when it comes to the precise time you are are ready to shoot. You would probably want the ability to speak freely with he BG and give him verbal commands without running the risk of your wife jumping the gun (no pun intended). Something with cadence might me helpful to. Your wife will recognize that the code word is coming, both of you are ready to do what you got to do, and you will be able to do it in sync. "Mary had a little lamb, its fleece was white as SNOW." Just thinking out loud here guys.