Help a Split Neck Virgin


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dmftoy1
March 9, 2006, 08:26 PM
Ok, was sorting through today's .45 acp brass and hit a couple of empties that are obviously destined for the recycle bin. What I'm wondering is whether these actually have a split neck or if they're caused by a feeding problem with me not having my LSWC's showing enough "shoulder". I loaded them to a COL of 1.235 but there's not much shoulder showing on these. (Previously for .45 acp I didn't pay much attention to COL and just loaded so that what I thought was an appropriate amount of shoulder showed)

I've never had a split neck before so I'm not completely sure what I should be looking for. I always thought it would be a sharp "V" instead of the "U" that I'm seeing. Here are a couple of hi-res pictures. Sorry they're not more in focus than they are:

http://www.fahringer.net/x/split1.jpg
http://www.fahringer.net/x/split2.jpg

2 of the 3 problem rounds have been in my collection since 1985 and have probably been reloaded 6-7 times. The other one is probably on it's 3rd reload.

Any and all advice would be greatly appreciated.

Have a good one,
Dvae

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Car Knocker
March 9, 2006, 08:47 PM
Not split necks. A split would be a crack from the mouth extending toward the base for a bit (variable length).

they're caused by a feeding problem with me not having my LSWC's showing enough "shoulder".

I do believe that is the correct answer.

dmftoy1
March 9, 2006, 08:56 PM
Thanks! That was my gut feel, but never having a split neck I didn't know.

Have a good one,
Dave

Mal H
March 9, 2006, 08:58 PM
I agree with CK, those aren't split cases. In fact, you usually won't see the "V" you were thinking about. Often it is hard to tell a case has split until you look closely at it. The split will usually be a somewhat jagged rip down the case, sometimes very short, sometimes for the length of the case up to the web. But the case rarely splits completely apart.

I'm not sure what caused the case problems in your photos. I don't see how the bullet shoulder thing would cause those mouth indentations. They look more like they were jammed into the side of the chamber by the slide. How powerful were the loads? Light, medium, stout?

dmftoy1
March 9, 2006, 09:06 PM
They were 5.0 grains of Bullseye under a 200 grain LSWC fired through a Springfield XD. I think the cause is the brass lip catching on the feed ramp as it's being fed from the magazine into the chamber but I'm not sure. (typically I have maybe 1/32 more shoulder showing than I do on these)

Regards,
Dave

Mal H
March 9, 2006, 09:19 PM
The way they look, I seriously don't think the round would chamber if it caught that hard on the feed ramp on the way in. I would love to eyeball the gun and the ammo - but, can't do that. :)

You are crimping enough to remove all the bell, aren't you?

Enlighten me on what you mean by "shoulder showing". .45 ACP cases don't have shoulders.

esheato
March 9, 2006, 09:38 PM
Enlighten me on what you mean by "shoulder showing". .45 ACP cases don't have shoulders.
I believe he means the shoulders on the LSWC bullets.

I don't know what would cause the original problem. For starters, I would take some brass that is of good manufacture and in one complete piece and shoot it and start tracking down the problem.

Ed

The Bushmaster
March 9, 2006, 10:45 PM
Are we kidding here...The only time I ever see that kind of damage to a case is during resizing a badly dented mouth or a bullet forced into a case that has not been belled enough to receive the bullet...Look at the case a little closer, dmftoy1, and see if you have folded some of the case mouth into the case...I bet you have. Bell your cases just a little more and this will go away...:rolleyes:

DaveInFloweryBranchGA
March 10, 2006, 01:42 AM
I agree with Bushmaster. It looks like whatever happened, happened during your reloading and you missed it. I'm guessing something is NOT adjusted right in your reloading setup. I would advice going back through the whole over all length, belling, seating and crimping setup to clear this up. Follow the advice of what a properly reloaded cartridge with the bullet type you're loading with is pertaining to over all length, crimping and post reloading dimensions.

I think if you take your time, get your reloading setup correct, the case issue you're having will go away and your press (Especially if it's a progressive.) will run a great deal smoother. Good luck and don't be afraid to post and ask what the components should appear to be like at each stage of the reloading process. This is part of the normal process of reloading and is part of the fun of reloading. :banghead:

Regards,

Dave

Berek
March 10, 2006, 04:01 AM
I found a nice pic showing examples of splits. These are the type of "rips" you would see on the case, usually the neck, if it were split.

IMHO, though blurry, your pics look as if the bullet were "hanging" on the lip as it was being seated. I had a couple of .45-70 that did this because I did not flare the case enough. I tried showing the ones I have, but they turn out too blurry. They are prime examples of split necks and the splits look similar to the pics I did find, so if I can, I'll try to get better pics in the AM to post. Meanwhile,...

Maybe add just a skosh (sp?) more flare...

The pic is here (http://www.simonov.net/images/brassbig.jpg)
And:
http://www.simonov.net/images/brassbig.jpg

xring44
March 10, 2006, 05:57 AM
If you are useing a progressive press it looks like the case wasn't properly aligned with the sizeing die, possibly slightly canted in the shell holder, this will cause a simular condition, or as Bushmaster above stated, not quite enough bell and the bullet is rolling the mouth over. I have had the same problem with alignment issues between the case and sizeing die.

Doug b
March 10, 2006, 08:12 AM
The Bushmaster nailed another one.Dmftoy1 you might want to look closely at dings in the case mouth caused by extraction and remove them with hand tools before resizeing and expanding.The Lyman (M) die expander is the real deal for cast bullets IMO.

dmftoy1
March 10, 2006, 08:14 AM
Well I do run minimal belling, but I don't shave any lead. I will double check that though. The reason I think it's the pistol doing it is that I had one that hung up on the feed ramp that had lead pushed down into that "U". (I pulled the bullet and deprimed before taking the picture).

The belling is all removed with a lee fcd. I double check my "crimping" via the old method of putting some serious pressure on the back end of the cartridge while pushing it up against the side of my loading bench and they don't "setback".

Thanks for all the advice!

Have a good one,
Dave

dmftoy1
March 10, 2006, 08:25 PM
Alright, so I was convinced that it must've been a loading mistake so I went back and reviewed every single round in that batch. The batch was 600 rounds and I had shot 100 and found those 3 so I was "sure" I'd find another one at least in the remaining 500 . . . . .didn't find a single one. So then I thought for sure that it must be the gun. So I hand cycled 26 rounds (2 magazines) through it and didn't see any damage to the brass on any of the rounds. I guess I'll just have to shoot'em and keep an eye out to see if I can figure it out. The only difference I can see between these and the 10k + other .45acp rounds I've loaded/shot is that the shoulder of the LSWC isn't sticking out as far as they usually do on my loads. These are the first where I tried to match the COL to the load (from the manual) rather than just doing what "seemed" right.

Thanks for all the advice!

Have a good one,
Dave

Car Knocker
March 10, 2006, 09:08 PM
I've been mulling this over a bit since my initial response and, to the best of my recollection, when I failed to bell a case mouth sufficiently the flaw tended to be a bit wider and the crimp die tended to iron in some marks adjacent to the flaw.

dmftoy1, since you have examined your remaining rounds and found them not to be defective, it might be instructive to mark the topside of each round with a Magic Marker as you load them into the magazine. Then, if you found more damaged cases after firing, the index marks would help pinpoint just what is catching the case mouth.

By the way, are the notches in the three cases flared into the interior case or to the outside? Or are they flat and of the same thickness as the rest of the mouth?

dmftoy1
March 11, 2006, 07:35 AM
The were all folded to the "outside" and weren't "flat" although that varied a bit between the 3. I think that was caused by the fact that two of the three had been fired (so they were pretty flat) and the third I caught because it misfed. (It definately wasn't flat).

I'll try your marker suggestion. It'll be awhile until I get to these rounds again as I've got 500 ahead of them from a previous session. THANKS!

Car Knocker
March 11, 2006, 12:57 PM
OK, let us know what you determine once you get back to this batch of ammo.

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