Give Me Your Wallet

[RioShooter]

I recently did an IDPA scenario called "Give me your wallet" where you throw down your wallet with your weak hand while simultaneously drawing your weapon with the strong hand and firing four shots.

I realized I couldn't do this using my normal strong side wallet carry. I now carry my wallet on the weak side.

How many of you have considered this strategy?

Previous threads have addressed wallet carry, but not with consideration of dropping the wallet and shooting at the same time.

[JesterXD40]

wallet is strong side, and when I pull up my shirt its easier to draw than to get to my wallet, problem solved.

[RioShooter]

My thought here was that throwing the wallet would distract the BG momentarily, giving me the time to draw.

[psychophipps]

Even better than throwing the wallet down is simply handing it over. If they're reaching for a relatively small object, a motor action that requires precision, it's by far your best chance. Just put your non-drawing hand and shoulder forward as you extend the wallet to naturally swing your arm to your strong-side weapon and your body will help conceal your arm movements while you draw.
If you can time the draw to when they're first grasping the wallet, you got them. In fact, try it at home. Have someone pretend to mug you while you hand the wallet over. When they first get within about 6-inches of grasping the wallet and the first contact, they're entire attention is focused of grabbing the wallet and they won't fire despite knowing what you're trying. It's a weird motor control thing.

Mark(psycho)Phipps( HAHAHA! )

[KriegHund]

If i go out at night or the weekends i carry a 'fake' wallet in my back pocket. My real wallet is in my front left pocket.

The 'fake' wallet contains old cards and a few 1$ bills. Toss it at em, if they run, all is well, if they look, kick em in the nuts, head, and stomp em.

[CAnnoneer]

I like the "fake wallet" idea.

Btw, I doubt giving the wallet guarantees anything. They can still shoot you in the head. Thus compliance is likely pointless. Also, many of these creeps keep doing this exactly because they play upon the sheeple's willingness to comply.

[psychophipps]

Well, I would like to think that most people are intelligent enough to determine that the contents of the their wallet isn't worth taking a slug over. You should only take violent action if you believe the assailant will kill you anyway, and believe me, you'll be able to tell.

Mark(psycho)Phipps( HAHAHA! )

[Manedwolf]

Wallet is in either back pocket, or if cargo pants, thigh pocket. Front pocket, where a wallet might be expected to be, instead has the thing they don't wanna see pointed at them...a pocket auto.

That'd be pulled out instead of the wallet, and if they're armed, unloaded at them.

[NukemJim]

Btw, I doubt giving the wallet guarantees anything.

+1

Based only on my personal experience.:(

NukemJim

[Double Naught Spy]

Some of the responses are a bit naive, although I have seen them taught or explained in the literature in multiple places.

Most of the mugging (Give me yoru wallet) scenario responses assume there is only one bad guy. According to stats provided by the Dallas Police, that accounts for only about 40% of the time. The other particiipant(s) may not be directly in your view and may be serving simply as lookouts or as backups to the person with whom you are dealing. In other words, just because you see only one threat definitely does not mean that only one threat is visible. So, for the scenarios where you try to toss the wallet as a distraction or want to hand over your wallet to excercise the bad guy's mental function such that you can draw and fire on the bad guy really may be a bad idea because he may not be the only guy with a gun trained on you. The question at that point becomes one of just how good is your situational awareness such that you think you will out draw on a drawn gun or knife of the bad guy known to you and still evade being injured or killed by the potential bad guy not known to you? Are you sure you are actually dealing with just one bad guy?

So you want to toss your wallet as a distraction to give you enough time to draw and fire your gun before the bad guy can react to your movement. Here, you are drawing on a drawn gun or knife, maybe a club. If you hand is not already on your gun, just how quickly can you cold draw your gun from concealment and fire that first shot accurately enough to strike the bad guy, hopefully accurately enough to incapacitate him? I have run through this with several folks, some multiple times. We would have guys come in to our range sessions and without downloading carry ammo and changing over to range ammo we would have them come out to the firing line, put on muffs and glasses, and time a Mozambique (2 chest, 1 head) at 7 yards. Granted, mugging distance is much closer. What many fail to realize is that the location of their gun may change during the course of carry or may be in a slightly different position on one pair of pants versus another. Maybe they are wearing a sweat shirt to conceal their gun instead of a vest.

Keep in mind we didn't give the guys a chance to stop, adjust their gun, cinch up their pants, or anything... just straight in, drop gear bad, come to firing line for muffs and glasses and shoot timed. We found guys to be as much as a half second slower on their first shot when drawn cold than after they had warmed up. In shooting cold at 7 yards, we had guys actually miss 1 or 2 of the three shots made as part of the drill and surprisingly, the first body shot was often the shot missed. Unfortunately, it was rare to have a shooter make all three shots in the correct areas in a time that was within 3/4 of a second of their shooting after warmed up. Overall completion times were up to 1 second slower than after the shooter had warmed up and hitting all three shots in the correct areas.

One of the biggest problems was getting that initial grip on the gun for the draw. Unrealized to many shooters, tucked shirts usually close to the body can become untucked during the course of a day and the initial grips on the guns sometimes included a wad of shirt that hindered proper manipulation of the gun. While I don't recall any range safety issues that actually put any shooters in harm's way, one shooter (my name withheld) managed to shoot a side wall of the indoor range, completely missing the target by about 5 feet and a result of the wad of shirt gripped with the gun being pulled taught just as full extension shooting postion was reached, causing the gun to twist to the side as the first shot was being made.

It was suggested that handing the wallet to the mugger will require more fine motor skills on his part, thereby allowing one to draw and fire. It is a novel idea that assumes the guy has poorer motor skills than you have, which may or may not be true, and assures that if you are already not in very close proximity to the bad guy that you need to be closer. The motor skills of a teenaged mugger may be a good bit better than that of a 40 or 50 year old intended victim. So by being close and having the bad guy use more of his fine motor skills, you are able to draw and fire a gun carried concealed in 1.5 to 2.5 seconds against a drawn gun or knife? Let's see, even if the bad guy had a slow response and it takes him a full second to start pulling the trigger of his drawn gun after you start your draw, he will still be firing before you. Maybe you will benefit from his being drunk or stoned such that his neural responses are slowed. Then again, maybe he is hopped up on speed and has faster responses.

The one thing that trying to hand over the wallet will do, if you are already not there, is to put you in that much of a closer position to the bad guy. The closer your proximity to danger, the greater the likelihood of you getting hurt. A lack of distance to the threat can negate the need for skill by the threat in order to harm you. Sure, your chances of hitting the threat improve as well, but it isn't about whether or not you hit the target better than the target hits you, but about not getting hit. It does little good to kill your attacker if you are similarly mortally wounded as well, or suffer debilitating injuries that destroy your ability to enjoy life.

A few years ago, there was a great article that really brought to light the fact that proximity negates skill. In the article the intended victim was an elderly paraplegic who was confined to a wheelchair. Some guy figured the codger in the wheelchair would be an easy score and threatened the codger who did not give up his wallet. Keep in mind that the paraplegic old guy wasn't just paraplegic, but also legally blind. The bad guy started beating the codger in the wheel chair who managed to grab his attacker with one hand and produced a revolver from under the blanket in his lap with the other hand and placed it into the side of the attacker where he fired just one shot that produced a "one shot stop."

[ball3006]

I go out with my wife. We are both armed. We practice "I don't have my wallet, car keys, etc, to distract a perp from one of us. Which will allow a draw and fire as the perp is distracted by the other partner. When we are approached by someone in a parking lot, we separate by several feet so a perp will have to divide his attention. I carry one of my guns in a man purse which is very easy to grab the gun. I will jus shoot through the purse as I am handing it to the perp. I am a grey haired old fart who will fake chest pains and ask to access my "medicine" in my pocket/purse. I always am aware of my surroundings when I go out.....You can't be too careful out there......I am elgible to retire this month. When that happens I will move out of the friggin' city to my camp in the woods.........chris3

[JamisJockey]

My thought here was that throwing the wallet would distract the BG momentarily, giving me the time to draw.

I fully agree with this. This is %50 of the equation of why my wallet is weakside. Also, I don't want to scare the sheeple when I pay for my Venti Mocha Latte nonfat.
Once, in blockbuster, I had my hands full of squirming child. My wife, having forgotten her wallet, proceeds to pull my shirt up and expose my IWB handgun to everyone within a 100' radius, to take my wallet to pay. I was a little annoyed to say the least.....

Double Naught:
Interesting information and theories. I'd prefer to keep my distance from the attacker(s), and tossing the wallet increases my chances of being able to defend myself.
Also, another thought....the badguy(s) have the drop on you. You pull weakside wallet, throw it and they take it and run. Sucks to be you, but you go home in one piece.
You pull strong side wallet, and they see your gun. Now, they either want your gun, to commit further crimes with/sell/disarm you, or they just shoot you in reaction.

There is no magic bullet. There is no standard response to every scenerio. But, by the simple act of keeping my wallet off-hand, I keep my strong hand free if I have to reach for my wallet unexpectedly.

[birddog]

I tried this once, but got mixed up. I dropped my gun and pointed my wallet at them. They shot me. I died.

True story.

[Ares45]

I carry wallet and gun both strong side. I don't buy the "hand over the wallet weak hand and draw your weapon strong hand" thing. Too much going on. Most BG's are not known for their intelligence but I'm betting a few would be able to spot the strong hand disappear behind your back. Movement draws attention. With both my wallet and gun on the same side the BG is expecting me to reach behind my back and pull something out. BG will be thinking he's got a compliant victim so he's still happy. Meanwhile, all the sudden I'm inside his OODA loop and he's reacting to me, not the other way around. By the time the BG figures out what's happening he'll be suffering from multiple perforations.

If the situation warrants, draw and shoot. Regardless of where you keep your wallet. It's that simple. No need to make it overly complicated. In fact it doesn't matter where your wallet is. Right, Left, Who cares...

[UWstudent]

Edited to comply with Forum Rule #4 (http://www.thehighroad.org/code-of-conduct.html) - BR would you actually shoot someone who is demanding your wallet? why don't you just go to jail now and save the hassle..

guy wants your wallet? use PEPPER SPRAY, give him a fake wallet or give him ur wallet.. your life is NOT in danger. if your gonna have a bad a$$ attitude and shoot any dude that demands your wallet, then you shouldn't be carrying unless you wanna end up in jail soon.


lets say the BG pulled out a pocket knife and demanded your wallet and you killed him.. how are you going to pull an excuse out of your butt and say you could have avoided the situation by just tossing your wallet to the prosecutor of the victims family thats sueing you and the state and the rights for other good CCW people to carry in your state?

[Ovid]

guy wants your wallet? use PEPPER SPRAY, give him a fake wallet or give him ur wallet.. your life is NOT in danger.

So if some scumbag came up to you or a loved one, and jammed a revolver in your ribcage, and demanded your wallet, you would not feel that your life were endangered??

[Ares45]

are you guys idiots?

-1st THIS IS A GUN ENTHUSIAST FORUM. It's implied in the question.

-2nd, and I quote myself, If the situation warrants,... Meaning the threat of severe bodily injury or death is present.

lets say the BG pulled out a pocket knife and demanded your wallet and you killed him.. how are you going to pull an excuse out of your butt and say you could have avoided the situation by just tossing your wallet to the prosecutor of the victims family thats sueing you and the state and the rights for other good CCW people to carry in your state?

I would much rather give up my wallet and let the BG go on his merry way if the option presented itself. But in this scenario that's not the case. With regards to the above statement, a knife at close range is more deadly than any handgun ever will be. Ever heard of the Tueller Drill??? Google it and learn. The basic premise being an edged weapon presentation inside of 21' (that's right, FEET!) should be considered an imminent deadly threat.

To answer your question directly; I'm well within my rights to defend myself, period.

[creampuff]

I tried this once, but got mixed up. I dropped my gun and pointed my wallet at them. They shot me. I died.

True story.

:D lol

[Bartholomew Roberts]

lets say the BG pulled out a pocket knife and demanded your wallet and you killed him.. how are you going to pull an excuse out of your butt and say you could have avoided the situation by just tossing your wallet to the prosecutor of the victims family thats sueing you and the state and the rights for other good CCW people to carry in your state?

Even in states that are very hostile to concealed carry, pulling a knife is lethal force and you are entirely within your rights to defend yourself from death or serious injury if you believe it is imminent.

A guy saying "I have a knife, give me your money" pretty much meets that requirement. It is an implied threat to do you serious bodily injury at a minimum. No state has a law saying you have to submit to robbery first and hope things get better from there.

Now if you want to make the practical point that shooting at anybody, even justifiablly, is going to be a LOT harder on your wallet than practically any robbery attempt, you might have a point.

[CAnnoneer]

For some of you guys, it's all fun and games.

I receive reports of armed muggings every week from the mailing list of a major university in the area. The perps have started working in pairs and trios and are getting more and more brazen. They have switched to daytime attacks in open streets. I wonder what LAPD Chief Bacca has to say about the protection he is providing to the common citizens who are otherwise practically precluded from CCW, while the perps seem unimpeded in their access to guns.

[Dionysusigma]

BG: "Give me your wallet!"

Me: "You give me your knife!"

:D

UWstudent: Are you guys idiots? Would you actually shoot someone who is demanding your wallet? Why don't you just go to jail now and save the hassle...No, yes, and because jail isn't worth the hassle.
Guy wants your wallet? Use PEPPER SPRAY, give him a fake wallet or give him your (real) wallet... your life is NOT in danger. If you're gonna have a bad-ass attitude and shoot any dude that demands your wallet, then you shouldn't be carrying unless you wanna end up in jail soon.
Mail me your wallet, then... If you don't comply, I shall be forced to mail a knife to you, which must be returned with (as you so lavishly put it) "ur f'in wallet." Since you won't take the initiative to defend yourself, you're essentially saying it's okay. I expect delivery in no more than two weeks. ;)
Let's say the BG pulled out a pocket knife and demanded your wallet and you killed him. How are you going to pull an excuse out of your butt and say you could have avoided the situation by just tossing your wallet to the prosecutor of the victim's family that's suing you, the state, and the rights for other good CCW people to carry in your state?
Because I was in fear for my life, and fearing imminent bodily harm. In this state, no judge would allow (at least, in this situation) a family of an aggressor (meaning the knife-weilding maniac) to sue somebody that was lawfully carrying and lawfully defended their life. Nothing needs to come from my posterior, then...

(Quotes edited for ease of reading... (C) 2006 Ze Grammar Nazis)

[HighVelocity]

My wallet is black and has a 45 caliber hole in it. :evil:

[MathurinKerbouchard]

I would think that any mugging attempt would qualify for a deadly force response. First, if someone walks up to you and demands your wallet, they obviously have the means and will to do you great bodily harm if you fail to comply, right? Even if you can't see a weapon, you must assume that either they have one, or their martial arts skills are such that they could kick the crap out of Bruce Lee and Chuck Norris simultaneously without breaking a sweat. Ergo, if they demand your wallet they are capable and willing to do you great bodily harm. No if, ands or buts.

A mugging is about compellance. You have something they want. They must have to have the means of compelling you to do their will. They have to instill fear of harm or death in the victim in order for the victim to comply. Therefore, if someone holds you up, your life is in danger.

Shoot.

[motorep]

"Here's my wallet"- J-frame in pocket....

[Low-Sci]

I take my wallet with my strong hand, and rotate at the shoulder and fully extend my arm to hand it to my potential assailant. Just as he reaches up to take it, I drop it and run like the friggin' wind.

There's nothing important in my wallet on a day-to-day basis anyway. If he wants the wallet, fine. Take it. I'm getting the hell out of there.

[Srigs]

I have a fake wallet to toss and run if possible. I would be drawing my gun at the same time to give me options.

I want to avoid shooting someone if I can. If they are just using the line, "give me your wallet!" to put you off guard. The toss will distract them while drawing. :evil:

[UWstudent]

i really believe shooting is not the answer in the "gimme ur wallet scenario"..

here are the reasons

1) BG's go in pairs. usually 2 confront you with 1 behind. or 1 in front. 1 in back.
2) how do you know they don't just have knives? maybe they got a gun pointed to your back and u don't know it?
3) unless you're 100% POSITIVE there's only 1 BG, shooting him could get you killed. the statistics show that once you have complied with the BG and gave your wallet, he will take it and run away almost all the time.
4) if you shoot a BG, you could be in court paying legal fees for years. is there really more money in your wallet than what you're gonna pay your lawyer?
5) BG's typically confront you VERY closely, and bullets don't blow them away 25 feet.. in fact, if you don't hit his head then its very likely he'll shoot and stab you or the guy behind you will.
6) you're not a movie hero

[gunsmith]

i really believe shooting is not the answer in the "gimme ur wallet scenario"..

Really? well I believe I am a brain surgeon, I say you need surgery...I'm sure I left my scapel in my pick up truck, lemme go get it..wait there!

[gunsmith]

I don't need statistic's I am from NYC and have been mugged at least 50 times
and have had "new york acupuncture" ( been stabbed )
being stabbed really, really hurts and it sucks.
I am going to shoot the next "give me your wallet" excrement head.
Now that I live in Reno I generally do not have to worry quite as much about it, but I carry anyway ...just in case

[UWstudent]

i can see why u got stabbed..

did u tell the muggers u were a brain surgeon also?

PS: im going to flight school (navy) soon.. do u want me to take some pics for ya? :neener:

[1911 guy]

Thug: Gimme your wallet.
Me: No.

Either he walks away and we both live, or he threatens violence. If B, I pretend to cave, reach for my wallet which strongly resembles a .45.

By the way, "fact" number three in UWStudent's post is no longer the norm. Compliance is NEVER a bargaining chip for safety.

[UWstudent]

then why do police officers say comply with the BG's demands?

hey, that's what a cop told me.

[psychophipps]

I was kind of curious about that myself, UWstudent. In fact my concealed carry instructor, a police officer for 23 years, said "The contents of my wallet aren't worth killing someone over." Funny, I feel the same way he does.

I will know when I need to use my gun and "Give me your wallet" from a nervous junkie who almost looks like he wants to run away more than get my wallet isn't on that list...
Mark(psycho)Phipps( HAHAHA! )

[Doc2005]

The fake key (no computer chip) will "start" my Jeep Wrangler, but, the engine will stall within about 5 to 10 seconds. :) That delay gives me time to run, or fire or whatever is needed. I also figure that a fake wallet, with worthless n0-name cards and assorted junk and $50.00 in it would cost me less than changing all of our house, office and automobile locks. :) Never had to resort to using them though.

Doc2005

[thorazine]

Give Me Your Wallet

Instead of my wallet my agressor would first get my CCW Flashbang (tm) followed by a quick string of forty-five or nine.

[BullfrogKen]

I am from NYC and have been mugged at least 50 times

It serves to reason since you're still here to tell us about it, however you handled each these >50 muggings turned out as good as they could have.

Any landing I walk away from is a good one, and any violent encounter I end unperforated I consider a success.

Thug: Gimme your wallet.
Me: No.

It is fantasy to believe a mugging starts out with a simple request. Many begin long before the victim is aware of it when the team interviews the victim and then signals to each other to initiate the action. Often a victim is unaware of the encounter until the attack begins, and the weapon used to coerce his valuables determines the level of violence in the encounter.

The more deadly, or perceived deadliness, of the weapon, the less violence is usually employed in the encounter. Guns might be used to bludgeon, but are rarely fired to prove the attacker's resolve. As we move down the spectrum of weapons through knives, to clubs and improvised weapons, to bare hands, the more likely the victim is to be hurt in the encounter. In a robbery the attacker is using violence as a tool for compliance, and not expressively, meaning to satisfy a vendatta or personal desire to use violence for its own sake.

Knowing this, we can make decisions about how we choose to respond in the interaction, and keep the attackers from moving out of using violence as a tool into expressive violence - meaning he now has personal motivation to hurt us. Likely the attack upon you is not their first. This is their "job"; it is how they make a living. By the time you meet them, they are professionals who learned how to commit robbery from others and have refined their skills by having done it repeately. Insulting them by not respecting their skills and experience is foolish and will move them out of instrumental into expressive violence.

Choosing to respond with "No" probably isn't realistic. And neither is drawing a gun once the encounter has progressed to the point that the robbers have actually began requesting valuables.

I carry my cash and credit cards in a money clip. My wallet contains my other items such as ID. I feel a lot less attachment to my money clip, and have no reservations parting with it, knowing that nothing in it can't be replaced nor does it contain anything personal like my ID and photos.

[tellner]

Why, I'd let him or them have everything I was carrying. Starting with the all of my ammunition and my knife.

[sacp81170a]

then why do police officers say comply with the BG's demands?

Which cop? Under what circumstances? I'm a cop and I teach CCW. I tell people that they have to evaluate the situation to see if deadly force is necessary and give them the tools to make that judgement. Do you believe everything a cop tells you just because he's a cop? Might he have told you that because because he's not very well informed about CCW and personal defense from a civilian point of view?

Now to adress the original post. I carry my wallet weak side hip pocket. That's also below the point where I carry my BUG, a Smith & Wesson 640 in an IWB holster. Darn it, everytime I reach for my wallet, my hand just seems to want to gravitate to that little revolver. Can't help it, ya know. :D Maybe it's because I hate paying the kind of prices for stuff I'm seeing now.

BTW, this brings up another question. For those of you who carry a BUG, do you carry it accessible to weak or strong hand? I've always carried on the off side based on the theory that my strong hand might very well be disabled by the time I have to go for a backup. Might need to start another thread.

[psychophipps]

I tell people that they have to evaluate the situation to see if deadly force is necessary and give them the tools to make that judgement.

And this is the precise point that many posters on this thread are making, sacp81170a. I agree with this statement 100% and so does my, "The contents of my wallet aren't worth killing someone over." CPL instructor. Some of the other posters are, at least on this forum's venue, seeing any 'gimme your wallet!' situation as an immediate reason to go full-tilt-boogie dub-u dub-u triple-eye on the perp when the reality of a mugging situation, in the fact that each is as individual as we are, isn't given.
In fact, the original post was "I was trained to do this at a school/seminar I went to. What do you guys think?" I posted an variant technique with the idea that the decision of your need to shoot has been made and then came the obligatory G.I. Dunno with "I kill the corksucker with extreme prejudice!" It simply snowballed from there.

BTW, anyone else notice how insanely quick Tom Cruise was drawing in the movie "Collateral"? I wish I could draw like that, :p
Mark(psycho)Phipps( HAHAHA! )

[gunsmith]

includes going to an all black middle and high school and being one of 4 or 5 white kids in the whole damm school, When it was "only" 4 or 5 kids threatening me I would pull out my knife and keep them away, if it was 20 or 30 then I'd hand over the lunch money, also bfken you are presuming that it worked out good for the mugge...rmany of the muggers I've faced in NY had to walk away with nothing because I pulled out my knife and told them to try and take my money.....as an adult

I GOT STABBED AFTER CO-OPERATING!!! I GOT STABBED BECAUSE I GAVE UP MY WALLET AND CO-OPERATED! YOU ARE PRESUMING THE SKELLS HAVE THE SAME VALUE SYSTEM YOU HAVE i.e A WALLET IS NOT WORTH KILLING OR DYING OVER ...SOME OF THE MUGGERS IN MY OLD HOOD REALLY ENJOY MAYHEM AND MUTILATION, THEY WANT YOU TO CO OPERATE TO MAKE IT EASIER TO RAPE YOUR GIRLFRIEND and TORTURE YOU AND YOUR GF

Arm chair internet warriors can be annoying but now I realize arm chair internet quislings are worse.

so you've handed over your wallet ..what next? hand over your gun because it's not worth dying or killing over???

I am never ever gonna co operate again because I am not in NY and I carry a gun 24/7 ...I am not gonna hand over my wallet becuse some cop told a college student it isn't worth it! I am not cooperating because some cop that doesn't even think civillians should carry, told some pudgy kid "it's not worth it" if I cooperate it means that the skell may have my gun. (who knows, he may use it on some cop too, great, coperate so there is another dead cop because a skell had a stolen gun!? )

No! No! and once again NO!

I say shoot the skell or skells and be done with it, call the cops after and they will send in the mourge folks to carry the bodies away while they make jokes and drink coffee...thats the kind of ending I like!

[gunsmith]

I am from NYC and have been mugged at least 50 times


It serves to reason since you're still here to tell us about it, however you handled each these >50 muggings turned out as good as they could have. ...yeah they turned out great because I REFUSED TO CO OPERATE, I PULLED OUT A KNIFE AND TOLD THEM TO GO AHEAD AND TRY TO TAKE MY $$$

Sometimes they won too they got me in a headlock and because I had been drinking etc they got the better of me.

I don't party anymore, I don't drink and I allways have a gun that means if I get mugged now, that there is a gun involved and I am never going to let some skell have my gun or wallet

[Biker]

I'd gladly hand my wallet over to a mugger. I'd watch with clinical interest as his eyes began to tear from the fumes emanating from the leather, permeated with years of toxic butt-sweat, then maniacally laugh as he was totally blinded by the swarm of moths shooting out of the cash compartment after he opened it.
Then, while he was on the ground, wretching and blinded, I'd empty his pockets and flee the scene.
Biker:cool:

[gunsmith]

people who are funnier then you should be stabbed:rolleyes:

you just keep on believing muggers should be co operated with, I guess they gotta eat too.:barf:

[MathurinKerbouchard]

I pretty much agree with gunsmith on this. Those who say a wallet is not worth losing your life over are correct from the standpoint that a wallet and its contents are relatively trivial (I know, identity theft, there are ways to deal wth that issue). However, a mugging is automatically a life or death scenario as I alluded to in my previous post. Anyone who DEMANDS your money, must be assumed to have both the will and the means available to enforce his demand. Your life or physical well-being should automatically be assumed to be in danger. If you have no other means of resistance, then hand it over. But if you have a gun, pepperspray, a knife, or walking stick and the ability to resist, do so. The wallet is irrelevant. The mugger(s) is violating you! It's not about the money. You are protecting yourself, not the wallet.

You have no guarantee that if you comply you will not be harmed. In order to survive, you must assume you will be harmed regardless. Assuming you were carrying legally, I do not see how you could possibly be successfully prosecuted for using force to protect yourself.

You: "Officer, he held me up and I was in fear for my life and physical well being. I wish to exercise my fifth amendment right to remain silent. I wish to speak with my lawyer." Then zip it.

[BullfrogKen]

bfken you are presuming that it worked out good for the mugge...rmany of the muggers I've faced in NY had to walk away with nothing

I think I was pretty clear that I was indicating it worked out well for you. Surviving an excess of 50 mugging attempts is quite a feat.

Each of us could one day come face to face with a situation that is untenable, yet we conclude resistence is necessary. In the event I decide a fight is required, even though the outcome seems grim, I am content knowing that I'm going to have some say in the matter. Still, I'm not convinced fighting over money is necessary. You can muck up the scenario with wives, girlfriends, and whatnot, but those are outside the particulars of this discussion of whether we should respond to a robbery with force, or by surrendering our cash. I have enough experience to differentiate whether the aggressors simply want cash and will leave once they get it, or have other intentions. I have my lines, too, I've just drawn mine in a different spot.

Arm chair internet warriors can be annoying but now I realize arm chair internet quislings are worse.

I'm not sure I catch your meaning . . . but I do like my comfortable chair, in my comfortable house, in my comfortable neighborhood.

Does your chest hurt after beating it so hard? Throttle back on the font size. Simply because I don't feel compelled to boast about the challenges and accomplishments I've had in life doesn't mean I don't have any.

[CAnnoneer]

Historical clarification: Quisling was the leader of the Norwegian collaborators to the Nazis in WW2. In a sense, compliers may be viewed as playing into the hands of the muggers. But, we should remember that most people don't necessarily have what it takes to stand up for themselves.

[buck00]

Lot of artillery going back and forth in some of these posts. :banghead:


If someone (one BG) demands your wallet and you say "Ok no problem man" and you reach for your concealed pistol in your waistband, I guarantee you, most crooks are going to assume you are "complying" and reaching for your wallet. (unless you are going for your ankle pistol, which wouldn't be a good idea). While a crook may be very dangerous, most likely he isn't trained or thinking like an ATF agent or LEO keenly watching for any signs of a weapon. He is assuming you are a wimp who is coughing up his wallet. So as you reach for your pistol, you also turn slightly, as if you are fumbling getting the wallet out, and that buys you another second. The last thing the BG is expecting is the business end of a Glock and a muzzle flash. :eek:

I've heard the whole "your wallet isn't worth dying for" argument. However, how terrible would you feel if you and your girlfriend/wife were shot or stabbed, AFTER you handed over the wallet... because you naively assumed "all he wanted was the wallet" ?

I would rather take my chances drawing on someone than leave myself and possibly a loved one at the mercy and whim of a criminal. JMO.

[psychophipps]

Ahh...I think I'm finally seeing the point you guys are making. You're assuming that because I'm talking about handing over the wallet that I'm also saying to just roll over and play dead in the hopes that the big, bad bear won't eat you. Well, you're quite mistaken.
I've worked as a bouncer (no, I wasn't a very good one) and have had a few (lucky) scapes with some criminal persons in the past. I'm able to get a 'feel' for situations as they unfold. I can tell if someone in a bar is potential trouble or if they're is just roughhousing a bit. My giving over my wallet is simply my response to a "No need to blow holes in this one" signal from my instincts. If I feel for even a moment that I'm getting a "Danger, Will Robinson! Danger!" signal then out comes the pistol with intent on defending myself with it.
As I hand over the wallet my rear hand is either by my waist for a quick draw or up in a defensive position as a 'gate'. I'm constantly watching my assailant's eyes and face. Are they smiling in an obviously stressful situation? They they looking around to be sure that nobody is watching? Is the smile the wan twitch of nerves or the confident sneer of a predator? What does my gut tell me? How do they carry themselves, aggressively threatening or just wanting to be gone? Now my handing over the wallet might give me the openning I need to defend myself.
Almost all reported survived violent incidents where the victim was later brutalized in some manner after compliance was far from a shock to the victim other than the fact it was happening to them. The victim knew that compliance wasn't going to help their sitaution on a gut level but their fear let them be cowed. I have talked to many police officers about this and almost every single victim said a statement close to, "I knew that they were doing to do <insert violent criminal act here> anyway but I was so afraid that I went along, hoping I was wrong."
In Oregon, if I were to shoot a criminal who walked up to me in an obviously threatening manner and said, "Gimme your wallet!" then I would go to jail. Full stop. I need to confirm a legally defensible lethal threat to my person or another to use lethal force. Size might make a difference. Age might make a difference. But if there is no identifyable threat like a gun, knife or other potentially lethal weapon then I have not exhausted my options in both Avoidance and Alternatives which I seriously doubt are not in your local jurisdictions statutes on the use of lethal force. Furthermore, I have then crossed a very large, black line that I seriously don't want to cross unless I know it's either them or me.

Just different ways of looking at the same problem,
Mark(psycho)Phipps( HAHAHA! )

[gunsmith]

my fur was rubbed the wrong way last night...

the point I'm trying to make is that some folks are evil, they like to kill, maim, rape , torture etc
and the money in your wallet is for a cold brew after all their "fun"

I walked into a burglary in my own apt in NYC, thanks to NY's gun laws I was unarmed, thanks to co operating I was stabbed, unless you've been stabbed you can not know how much it really sucks.

I can tell the difference between a couple of kids joking about "gimme your wallet" & a sincere robbery attempt and have been in a couple of situations as an armed security guard, I know when to shoot and when not to & if some skell thinks he's getting my wallet, he's not...he's getting either .357 or .40 depending on what I carry that day. period.

again sorry for my remarks...and thanks for the education on quislings, I never knew who he was, I've heard over and over on "The Savage Nation"

[SSN Vet]

I can hardly remember my real wallet and keys.....let alone my fake wallet and keys! :)

But seriously.....who am I to preach to someone else who finds themselves in such an unfortunate situation, what they should do.

God help them...and God help me if I'm the one.

as for the BG...........who cares?

[psychophipps]

No worries, gunsmith. :) You've had a lot more, and worse, experiences with this stuff than most people.

Mark(psycho)Phipps( HAHAHA! )

[Sean85746]

You are ALL missing the daggum point.

All you need to do is one of them "Crane Technique" kicks from Karate Kid.

Problem solved.

Dang, why do I have to keep telling you people this?

Mr. Myagi would NOT be happy with some of you!