Sawed offs are da bomb (or "2LTs with too much time and money on their hands)


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stiletto raggio
March 9, 2006, 11:02 PM
Yeah yeah, I know what you are thinking: "Short-barreled shotguns, you uneducated gun heathen." Nope, I mean sawed-offs.

My buddy and I were out at Gander Mountain and found a very inexpensive but decent quality Brazilian over/under for about $140. We split the cost and took it back to his place, broke out the Sawzall and the tape-measure and got to work. We double-checked the laws, measured carefully (three times) and marked our cuts with electricians tape.

After test-firing and a little refining work with the dremel and some good old-fashioned sandpaper we were proud of our new creation. It shot mini-slugs to point of aim and recoil was not a problem (even one-handed). Birshot required two hands but was not bad, and buckshot, well, it fired better than our wrists handled it. At just over 26.5", it was compact and quite handy. Still, it held only two shots and.

Several weeks later I got lot on the way to my grandparent's house and stopped at a local gun shop to ask directions. It was then that I saw a Mossberg 5500 in great shape sitting in a long line of used gun. I asked to see it and and, with the storekeeper's permission, unscrewed the buttpad to check the length of teh rod that attached the stock to the receiver. Happy with what I found, I paid the $160, filled out the requisite form and went happily on my way. A few days later, I took it to the range to make sure it would fire reliably from the hip and with a lose grip to simultate the reduced mass of a cut-down gun. I starred in on it with a fresh hacksaw blade. I rounded the butt with a power sander and cut the vent rib off at the last support on the barrel. Some heavy sandpaper evened out the barrel and I dremeled the inside to remove any burrs left from the cut.

Test firing this gun was a bit trickier. Unlike the over/under, I had to learn how to hold this gun in order for it to be reliable with the light birdshot that I used for testing. Buckshot, however, proved to be perfectly reliable, and I have since learned to shoot birdshot from it with near-total reliability. I think opening up the gas tube a tiny bit would really make this gun reliable, but I don't yet have the guts to do major internal surgery and I'm not going to pay a pro to work on a gun that cost less than a Hi-point. At a hair under 29", it is longer than the over/under but weighs no more, and it holds a full five rounds. I am actually considering buying a choate tube extension to bring this up to seven, but who knows.

Advice to anyone who wants to try this:

1) MEASURE CAREFULLY. Leave room for finishing and polishing. If you cut it too short somehow, DESTROY the offending part immediately.

2) Use fresh blades. The fresher the blade you cut with, the better the finish will be and the less work you have to do to touch it up.

3) Only cut guns you won't mind messing up. Not that this gives you a license to be reckless, but if you are conerned about how it will turn out, let a pro do it. These are "fun guns" and should be viewed as such. I wouldn't do this to a gun I wanted to use for self-defense.

4) If you want to do a semi-auto, get one chambered for 2-3/4" shells only. You won't want to shoot 3" shells out of it anyway, and a gun tuned for 2-3/4" shells will be more reliable once the weight of the gun is reduced so significantly. Also, make sure the stock doesn't contain pieces that are necessary for the gun to function. I recommend looking at online schematics and confirming this in person before investing in a project gun.

Pictures: myself and my Air Force LT buddy. The fruits of our work. We plan to finish the "bare" wood and do some touch-up blueing in the near future.

If you enjoyed reading about "Sawed offs are da bomb (or "2LTs with too much time and money on their hands)" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
ABTOMAT
March 10, 2006, 12:28 AM
Uh, I'm not quite sure what to say. Only that the photo says "his and hers" for some reason.

Kestrel
March 10, 2006, 01:02 AM
Uhh... What exactly are these things for?

beerslurpy
March 10, 2006, 01:04 AM
*

Headless Thompson Gunner
March 10, 2006, 01:14 AM
I'm not a lawyer, and all that...

But iffin I was you, I'd edit that post immediately to remove any sort of evidence ...errr, i mean "information"... as soon as possible. Then I'd find a quiet and discrete way to dispose of the shotguns.

Ya know, there's a reason other people don't do that kinda thing to their own shotguns.

Oh, and if you're gonna risk federal prison time, you owe it to yourself to ensure the resulting weapons are more effective after your modifications. It makes absolutely no sense to neuter your guns AND go to jail for it.

dasmi
March 10, 2006, 01:22 AM
Nevermind.

SRFL
March 10, 2006, 01:27 AM
Also inform your butter bar buddy that I know a few AFOSI special agent buddies that visit this site....I'd hate to see him get called in for an "interview."

MatthewVanitas
March 10, 2006, 01:55 AM
I'm squinting a bit here, trying to figure out if it looks worse than it is.

You're quite sure that the barrels are over 18", the way the ATF measures them?

You're quite sure overall length is kosher?

Might not hurt to take a photo with a ruler (or sheets of 8.5x11 paper) next to the shotguns for scale. I will admit that I've seen shotguns that looked overly short but taped out fine. Last gunshow I took my Dissipator AR-15 to, had several folks ask to measure the barrel, as the long handguards make is seem under-length (full 16" and a fraction)

I hope those just look shorter than they actually are.

-MV

Matt G
March 10, 2006, 11:41 AM
Okay, friends, settle down with the accusations of felonious activity until you have better evidence.

stiletto raggio got awful close to the line, but he didn't cross it. Heck, he didn't even spit across it.

Note what he says here:
We double-checked the laws, measured carefully (three times) and marked our cuts with electricians tape.At just over 26.5", it was compact and quite handy.
1) MEASURE CAREFULLY. Leave room for finishing and polishing. If you cut it too short somehow, DESTROY the offending part immediately.

All of this jibes with someone who is trying to comply with state and federal laws and regulations.

Federal and state law (here in TX, anyway) require that a shotgun be no shorter than 26 inches, and that the barrel be no shorter than 18 inches.

Now, I don't have a Mossberg 5500, but I do have a Remington 1100 12ga, and the auto receivers are nearly identical. Mine measures 2 1/8" from top to bottom. Using that measurement and cutting and pasting a square made from stiletto raggio's picture of his 5500, I come up with the O/U shotgun being at least 28 inches, overall, with a barrel that is at least 18.5" overall. The over and under shotgun at bottom is the one that's closer to the line, so I didn't even bother with the other one.

See the following picture. If you don't believe me, try it for yourself.
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=36918&stc=1&d=1142008806

Honestly, if you're not smart enough to figure out how to do this, you're probably not smart enough to be offering legal advice to other people.

Some people owe some apologies to Member stiletto raggio.

'Card
March 10, 2006, 03:35 PM
I don't care how long the shotguns are. I was more disturbed by the fact that it looks like both of those guys are wearing makeup.

STiTkacik
March 10, 2006, 03:56 PM
I'm just disturbed that someone ruined a nice looking OU. :lol:

Correia
March 10, 2006, 03:58 PM
One note for those thinking about cutting down a shotgun, measure with a dowel down the barrel until it touches the breach face. Not with a tape on the outside of the barrel. The dowel method is how the ATF is going to do it.

PJR
March 10, 2006, 04:05 PM
I think you should be sent to "pound your rear porthole prison" for butchering ANY over/under even one from Brazil.:rolleyes:

But then foolish acts committed by lieutenants isn't new or novel.;)

KriegHund
March 10, 2006, 04:17 PM
Yeesh, chill out people.
We're usually so polite, but someone does something to a cheap gun and you all freak out. When you assume you make an arse out of yourself.

Nice work, is the spread affected alot? How do slugs do in it?

748
March 10, 2006, 04:22 PM
"The dowel method is how the ATF is going to do it."
That is how I have been told to do it by gun smiths and at gun shows.
If you measured the out side of the barrel on a mini14 bulpump it would have all most no barrel if you measured it that way.
They sell pistol grip shot guns at gun stores all the time, they seem to be legal.
Enjoy your boom stick.

Billmanweh
March 10, 2006, 04:24 PM
nice job!

KriegHund
March 10, 2006, 04:27 PM
Billmanweh-

Thanks for contributing your post towards the closure of this thread. :rolleyes:

Lonestar.45
March 10, 2006, 04:28 PM
All potential legal issues aside, I have to ask.....WHY? :confused:

What exactly do they do better now, than they did before they were bubba'd?

I'm all for modifying to improve things, but I'm curious as to what you think this improves.......

Billmanweh
March 10, 2006, 04:29 PM
sorry, I spoke before I thought it through

1911JMB
March 10, 2006, 04:53 PM
Now you should save up 200 bucks, get a form 4, fill it out, get the local chief of police to sign it off, send it in with the 200 bucks and finish the job. Not to say its not a neat idea, or that I wouldn't love to shoot it, but it seems to defeat the purpose of having a double barrel sawed off when you can walk into a gunshop anywhere and get a mossberg persuador of the same length with better handling features and a 6 shot capacity.

riverdog
March 10, 2006, 05:01 PM
I wouldn't consider cutting down one of my shotguns, but I won't judge what other people do with their guns as long as it's legal and doesn't reflect on me. My only question is how did the shorter barrel and lack of stock affect the reliability of the Mossberg 5500?

Third_Rail
March 10, 2006, 05:05 PM
Nice! I bet those are handy to stick behind a couch, etc. I'm looking to do similar with import double or single shot shotguns. I knew I wasn't the only one to think of doing it...


Those 1934NFA regs sure aren't as long as I first thought. 26" is TINY for a long gun.

AJ Dual
March 10, 2006, 05:15 PM
The whole SBS and SBR portions of the NFA were because back in '33 when they were playing with the design of the legislation, in the initial drafts, ALL HANDGUNS were going to be NFA. :barf: And they didn't want the citizenry making "handguns" by cutting down rifles and shotguns to get around the NFA.

When they realized that making all handguns NFA wouldn't fly that portion was scrapped, but the SBS and SBR portions remained. Either out of laziness, or as a "feel good" move, because sawed-off's were associated with crime...

As to the sawed-offs in the originator's post? Whatever floats your boat. :D

Chipperman
March 10, 2006, 05:39 PM
Amazing how short that O/U looks. If I had just seen the picture without any explanation, I would have surely thought that was way too short to be non-NFA.

I bet most Police would swear they were illegal just looking at them as well. Hopefully you never get stopped with them in your car. Yeah you'd get off, but that might be an uncomfortable day or two until then.

As for the job itself, whatever makes you happy.

Cosmoline
March 10, 2006, 05:57 PM
The law in this case is a bright line, and if you're on the legal side you have nothing to apologize for. Yet some folks get all weird and itchy when they see a prefectly legal firearm that's "close to the line." Everyone on this forum ought to know better.

TMM
March 10, 2006, 06:21 PM
Nice job! personally, i'd get rid of the "humps" on the back of the handles - unless it makes it easier to handle?? stain and finish the cut part of the wood so it looks finished - perhaps round the corners better? get come gun blue for the cut metal areas.(barrel)

I like it! the O/U looks hella fun, good truck gun, or perhaps a pump would be better for that - reliable, and more rounds...

~tmm

'Card
March 10, 2006, 06:24 PM
The only line I see in there appears to have been applied with mascara.

scout26
March 10, 2006, 06:51 PM
The only line I see in there appears to have been applied with mascara.

They're Air Farce Officers, mascara is part of the uniform. :neener:


Count me in with the "Never take a hacksaw to a perfectly good shotgun, when you can buy a PGO 18.5" barrel Maverick 88 or Mossberg 500 for $150 or less" crowd.

Thank G-d, I was a mustang officer.

U.S.SFC_RET
March 10, 2006, 09:18 PM
Hey Lt have fun while you are young, what the heck you gotta do somrthing at Riley anyway right?. You are within law, Go have fun and shoot some birds close up.:D

orangeninja
March 10, 2006, 09:52 PM
I'd love to try that over/under.

stiletto raggio
March 10, 2006, 10:14 PM
After posting here, I copied and pasted the same post over at GlockTalk. The responses were somewhat less respectful. You can view my response here http://www.glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=5897912#post5897912

To those who like them, let me advise that the Aguila mini-slugs are by far teh most comfortable rounds to shoot from the O/U, and pretty accurate, too. Either gun can be fired easily from the tradition shotgun position, only without the but against the shoulder. Firing from the hip is pretty fun, though.

Also, I have noticed that a lot of people think 26" is longer than it is in reality. Get a yard stick: 26" is short, and frankly, I wouldn't want to go much shorter even if there was no law against it.

To clarify on another issue: I AM NOT AN AIR FORCE OFFICER. Nothing against eh Air Force; God knows I love having guaranteed air superiority. However, I am proud to be a member of both a service and a branch that sees significant action on the ground, US Army Military Police.

stiletto raggio
March 10, 2006, 10:27 PM
Also, we aren't wearing make-up. It's the lighting. I swear. Really.

Gelicious
March 10, 2006, 10:28 PM
I respect that you guys took the time to obey the law. You spent the money on thouse guns and you have the right to do whatever you want to them. Enjoy the guns and as long as you stay law abiding guys I have no problem with ya.

Helstrm
March 10, 2006, 10:56 PM
Nothing wrong with cutting the barrels short if they are legal but the wood work :barf:

You got to clean that up....

fellow14
March 10, 2006, 10:59 PM
Good on ya man. I sawed down an H&R shotgun a few weeks ago for my buddy. There are a lot of traditionalists that give people like yourself grief over something that really shouldn't matter to them. They are your guns chop em how you see fit. Maybe we could meet up sometime I would like to shoot those beasts.

ABTOMAT
March 10, 2006, 11:04 PM
What's the quote? "I may not agree with what you say but I'll figh to defend your right to say?" Well, if a couple of guys want to play dress-up and hack a couple of shotguns, who am I to argue? :)

444
March 10, 2006, 11:27 PM
Don't let the posts accusing you of being a felon bother you. It happens all the time.
I own a number of NFA items and am not the least bit afraid to buy more, including short barreled rifles (3) and short barreled shotguns (1). I am freqently accused of owning illegal items by people on this board that don't have the slightest idea of what they are talking about, yet have no problem posting their misinformation freely on a worldwide forum.

perpster
March 11, 2006, 12:00 AM
Didn't y'all notice the name of the thread ended with "2LTs with too much time and money on their hands"?

Whether you like or don't like what they did, if it's legal what's the big deal?

However, I do start to worry when an Army MP Lt and Air Force Lt seem to get along so well. What's this world coming to? Pretty soon you'll have the FBI and local police playing nicely together if this keeps up! :neener:

gezzer
March 11, 2006, 12:05 AM
They look neat to me! What a bunch of Fudds on this thread. I'll bet you would hate my Sebru Super shorty.

RecoilRob
March 11, 2006, 12:52 AM
I did a similar thing back in the mid '70s at Camp Lejeune with a single shot (I think Savage) shotgun. Ended up at absolute minimum dimensions +1/16.

Shot it only once. Used 3" Magnum Duck loads with 4 shot. Kicked kinda hard and drove the barrel break lever into the web of my hand about an inch and a half. Had to go for a couple of stitches to close up the wound.

Best part was when the MP's saw the gun the first time. There was much excitement and I got a ride in the cage on the back of a truck to the Brig. In handcuffs.

Spent quite a time there whilst all manner of MP's came to 'see the gun' that they had confiscated. After a LONG while, a Senior Officer showed up and actually spoke to me about the gun. "It is legal" I said. And gave him the 18"/26.5" numbers. No one had ANY idea what the legal dimensions actually were! Several long hours later..(of course, this was before the Internet) the word came down that the gun actually WAS legal! HaH!

They reluctantly let me go with my little gun. I imagine the whole deal would have been repeated every new duty station but I sold it to a fellow in an adjacent barraks who saw it in the trunk of my car.

Gave it to him with THE box of shells minus three...the one I shot....and two others fired by barracks mates who called me a pansy. Neither of them wanted to shoot more than the one they did. Fun stuff!!!

Reading this thread brought back memories of a time when I was just like them. Still like them mentally, just older now. Carry on men!

mnrivrat
March 11, 2006, 01:45 AM
I think opening up the gas tube a tiny bit would really make this gun reliable,

That's correct - with the shortened barrel the amount of gas supplied through the present gas vent hole in the barrel is less - therefore requiring a slightly larger hole to function with lighter loads.

Preacherman
March 11, 2006, 07:11 AM
Sawing-off an el cheapo double is fine for fun. I'd hate to see it done to an expensive gun, though... There's a local collector who has several dozen shotguns, including a number of the top names. A guncase was stolen out of his trunk once, containing a genuine Holland & Holland shotgun. When the cops recovered it, several months later, in a crack house, it had been sawed-off to 12"... :eek:

50caliber123
March 11, 2006, 07:23 AM
I'd love to get a cheap, used single-shot (around $50) and have the barrel shortened to about 18.5". I'd keep the stock on it, but that would be one helluva fun gun. Nest, I'd put one of those heat shields that has built in sights on the gun, and instant tactical single-shot. :D

OEF_VET
March 11, 2006, 07:59 AM
Don't let the posts accusing you of being a felon bother you. It happens all the time.
I own a number of NFA items and am not the least bit afraid to buy more, including short barreled rifles (3) and short barreled shotguns (1). I am freqently accused of owning illegal items by people on this board that don't have the slightest idea of what they are talking about, yet have no problem posting their misinformation freely on a worldwide forum.

+1 to everything my brother 444 has said.

I say, if they're your guns, you obey the law, and you find it enjoyable, rock on, brother. Should you choose to do so, Kansas does allow AOW's and SBR's/SBS's, but not suppressors or MG's. However, you'll need to consider the legalities of a registered NFA weapon whenever you PCS.

Third_Rail
March 11, 2006, 08:40 AM
A guncase was stolen out of his trunk once, containing a genuine Holland & Holland shotgun. When the cops recovered it, several months later, in a crack house, it had been sawed-off to 12"...



NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! :banghead:

wdlsguy
March 11, 2006, 09:00 AM
Kansas does allow AOW's and SBR's/SBS's, but not suppressors or MG's.

Actually, Kansas does not allow mere citizens to own short-barreled shotguns (Kansas Statutes 21-4201).

Ford
March 12, 2006, 10:45 AM
Good gosh people, don't any of you remember being young and bored. It to me seems like it was a project they could do together and have some fun. Good job guys. Be proud, finish it up and don't worry about what half these guys say.

Devonai
March 12, 2006, 11:40 AM
Here's my H&R Topper cut from 30" to 20".

Yes, boredom has a lot to do with it. Some day I'll put a new bead sight on it.

armoredman
March 12, 2006, 12:09 PM
Now I like that....cheap single shot cut down legal length...That I might do someday. BTW, get a Mad Max holster for that O/U...not the same but close...waitaminnint, didn't Chuck Norris do a movie where a cut down O/U was his sidearm of choice?

albanian
March 12, 2006, 12:27 PM
I think some of these old sticks in the mud have forgotton that guns can be fun. Why have a folding stock on an AK? It doesn't do anything that it wouldn't do before. Not everything has to make sense. If you can have fun for $160, good for you. I think a lot of these guys that are bashing you are just mad because they spend $2000 on an over under and they know deep down that you are having alot more fun with your $160 gun.:neener:

Cutting down an over under is no great shame, I don't even like over unders. The Brazilian guns are good guns and I am surprised that you got one for $160. As for the semi-auto, I would have gone the pump route since they will be more reliable.

Do whatever you want. You know the law better than most of the people replying to the thread. Thanks for taking the time to post some pics. It does look a little Bubba but I bet you do a better job next time. I would guess that most gunsmiths started out as Bubbas. They messed with their guns for fun and eventually learned about them.

huntsman
March 12, 2006, 12:37 PM
[QUOTE]Shot it only once. Used 3" Magnum Duck loads with 4 shot. Kicked kinda hard and drove the barrel break lever into the web of my hand about an inch and a half. Had to go for a couple of stitches to close up the wound.
[/QUOTE
IIRC one of the colinbine shooters had a sawed of stevens SxS but didn't fire it much instead used a 9mm. I wonder if it was too much for him, thats a lot of power in a small package.

I think 3"mag would be my last choice of cartridge,maybe a 2-3/4" 1-1/2 oz of 4s (babymag) would be the way to go ;)

Otony
March 12, 2006, 01:02 PM
Well, since I decided to buy this sawn off last night, for no other eathly reason than I thought it was cool, maybe we should cut these two younkers some slack.

http://disc.server.com/discussion.cgi?disc=180203;article=24843;title=Savage%2024%20Discussion%20Board

Behold, the truly ugly and weird. All because I do not YET live in a state where a Serbu Shorty is allowed.

XavierBreath
March 12, 2006, 01:34 PM
I like that O/U!
I can't believe you cut down a $140 gun though! Couldn't you find an ugly pawn shop gun for under $100?

Enjoy your shotties. It IS more fun to build it than buy it.

http://www.bayourovers.com/Winchester1300.jpg

BIGJACK
March 12, 2006, 08:25 PM
Looks like the length is pretty close to right. I have a 6 shot Ranger pump 12ga that I sawed off about 40 or so years ago, I don;t recall the total lenth requirement at the time but the barrel lenght was 18 in minimum. I cut it 18 1/8 inchs and made the over all length 1/2 inch over max allowable.

Taurus 66
March 12, 2006, 09:05 PM
Now why would anyone do that?! Iz u da man now? http://www.atforumz.com/images/smilies/pillepalle.gif

Thin Black Line
March 12, 2006, 10:42 PM
I think this would be illegal in MI (OAL too short).

The last time I saw an OU cut like this was for some kid in Bosnia
when they ran out of AKs. ;)

neo-con
March 12, 2006, 10:45 PM
All potential legal issues aside, I have to ask.....WHY?



I don't understand this idea. :scrutiny: Why....Why not. I mean for god sake. There are people who own shotguns that cost more than my car...Why.
If you've never done something for the hell of it chances are you've never done anything at all.
:fire:

Third_Rail
March 12, 2006, 10:58 PM
Thin Black Line, what is the minimum OAL there?

Taurus 66
March 12, 2006, 11:12 PM
If you've never done something for the hell of it chances are you've never done anything at all.

LMAO! I'm gonna go saw some of my guns in half now. Then I'll post it online in a forum where feds and locals are known to peruse the forum boards. That way I can tell da man in black robe, gavel in hand, "Hell ... I've done something".

Doing something is not nearly as important as doing the things that are worthwhile.

Fred Fuller
March 12, 2006, 11:41 PM
There are times and places where 'as short as possible' shotguns are truly handy to have. Sometimes nothing else will fit either the space available or the budget available.

And sometimes, 'guys just want to have fun,' to coin a phrase. These weren't priceless collector pieces, or heirlooms- just inexpensive (relatively speaking) shotguns of a fairly pedestrian mein. As long as the legal strictures are scrupulously observed in all jurisdictions concerned there is IMHO no problem with doing what los tenientes did to their shotguns. I was glad to see an unusual amount of muzzle discipline and trigger finger discipline for internet photos on display in that picture, too- mascara or no.

I plead guilty to doing some shotgun amputations several times over in decades gone by with various guns, though my preference is to leave stocks mostly whole. There was an Ithaca 37 12 ga. ($79) that had a badly bent barrel which abbreviated nicely at 18.5", and an old 12 ga. Remington Model 11 ($50) that I reassembled from its 'cigar box' state and cut off at 20" because it had a serious dent in its barrel. I cut down a pawn shop 20 ga. Sears-marked Stevens 311 ($100) side by side to 18.5" and cut the stock to a 12" LOP, my mom used that for a house gun for decades until her advancing years made even a 20 ga. too much for her to handle and we replaced it with a 9mm carbine.

I have cut down any number of inexpensive used single shots for various people who needed a gun that didn't cost a fortune and would fit in tight places more easily. I did cut the stock way down on one I set up for the storekeeper who ran the little country store in one community where I used to live, he wanted something short enough to shoot from its place under the counter without ever raising the gun into sight. It would have ruined the day of anyone standing on the other side of the counter, and offered more authority than the S&W Model 36 that resided in his pocket. Nothing makes up into a more compact package than a break-open shotgun that is shortened to just over the legal minimums. They do have their places and their uses in legitimate and law abiding hands, after all.

lpl/nc (fastest tubing cutter in the east)

Striker
March 13, 2006, 11:29 AM
I too have been bitten by the SBS bug.

Here is a story I've posted a while back on some of the other forums, it might be amusing for some.


_________________________________________________________________
Ok, I'll confess.

Two weeks ago at my local gun haunt I saw a NEF single shot 12 ga that had the barrel cut back to 18 1/2".

"Hmmmm" thinks I "What a nice handy little package. Would make a nice all around truck and walk about gun for those jaunts with dogs in the woods"

So I pony up the $45.00 (should have realized something at that point) , do the paper work and take her to Casa del Striker. Dig out an old butt cuff, stick some sling swivels on her and voila! walk about gun par excellence (again, should have realized something at this point).

Fast forward to last week sometime, walking around in the woods, Jack Russell and Rat Terrior having a grand time, when it comes upon me to test the little beasty out. (butt cuff stocked with 1 AA factory #8 skeet load, 2 wally world generic WW "target loads", 1 Federal tactical buck load, and one ancient Remington slug.

So I loads up the skeet load, and lets fly, brisk! Then "tgt" loads.....brisker!!
(should have really realized something at this point). I then let fly with the tactical buck load....ouch!! Then finally that old Remington slug. Euraka! I realize something!! This is not fun, this hurts, this is dumb!!!

I glance over at JoJo puppy dog and Dixie Dancer, who having taken a break from terrorizing the squirrels to watch the goings on, and both give me the "Well, we coulda' told you that, had you bother to ask us" look.

Moral of the story? I don't know, but thought I would share!

PS: Have subsequently discovered that the Agulia, shorty 12 guage shells are perfect and you can fit ten in the butt cuff, so this now is the designated round for this piece.

Nortonics
March 13, 2006, 12:48 PM
The resembelences concern me more than the guns:

http://www.lvrj.com/lvrj_home/2001/Jun-07-Thu-2001/photos/news.jpg http://www.newcriminologist.co.uk/casefiles/images/manson-early.jpg

;)

KarbineKrazy
March 14, 2006, 01:47 AM
inspired by the OU...

Dave McCracken
March 14, 2006, 10:27 AM
Now that the smoke has cleared and sunlight has returned to the forest floor....

A coupla things....

First, it's established that these are legal.

Second, the Lt mentioned in his opening post that these were not intended for life and death situations or as do-all firearms.

They were his guns, his time, his money and his hacksaw.

As for the utility of these large, ungainly, awkward handguns that used to be shotguns, IMO, there's little. But, that wasn't the aim of the project.

I think Lt Raggio did a commendable job. I do hope carpal tunnel is not in his destiny.....

Stiletto Null
March 14, 2006, 07:52 PM
I'm not much of a shotgun fan, but it's nice to see someone who can spell "stiletto".

freebird
March 15, 2006, 12:31 AM
You complainers all need help!! Do you have nothing better to do than to rag on individuals...oh, right...did I say individuals...Yeah, people different than yourself that is what makes them individuals. If I want to chop the top on my 34 Ford 3 window coupe I am going to do it. If I want ape hangers on my HD scoot I am going to do it. I don't give a damn whether you approve or not. I don't give a damn if the law says I can't have apes above my eyes or not. It is mine and it is not hurting anyone so I will do it. Though personally I think it looks stupid but everyone has their own opinions, just like we all have ???????s but not everyone wants to hear from it. These guys are complying with the law....should be good enough.

Laws....are they not wonderful? Iwould assume most of us on this forum are law abiding concealed carry background cleared individuals but yet we have to pay $$$$$ to protect ourselves through concealed carry classes and lisc because of these fine laws. Yet criminals get to do whatever the hell they want. Don't get me wrong we need laws but you complainers and safe warning issuers need to get a life and stay off the Pabst Blue Ribbon beer it is messing with your minds.

I am a new member and many people on here have offered me very, very helpful info. I have been enjoying this site very much until now. This is the most asinine thing I have ever seen. If you want to get involved in something important why don't you have each state take down the seat belt law enforcement signs since all 50 states have seat belt laws and have them replace the signs with no concealed weapons allowed in this state so you can promptly unload you pistola and put the gun and ammo out of reach. Sorry for the soapbox and I pray none of those big wig "law enforcement" individuals don't happen to see my post and consider me a threat. God help me!!!!

Taurus 66
March 15, 2006, 05:19 AM
You complainers all need help!! Do you have nothing better to do than to rag on individuals...oh, right...did I say individuals...Yeah, people different than yourself that is what makes them individuals. If I want to chop the top on my 34 Ford 3 window coupe I am going to do it. If I want ape hangers on my HD scoot I am going to do it. I don't give a damn whether you approve or not. I don't give a damn if the law says I can't have apes above my eyes or not. It is mine and it is not hurting anyone so I will do it. Though personally I think it looks stupid but everyone has their own opinions, just like we all have ???????s but not everyone wants to hear from it. These guys are complying with the law....should be good enough.


Wow! No disrespect intended, but your words are a lot like how that dude that talks during the end of every South Park crisis episode (the kid) who barks out his piece to the masses (don't know his name and don't care). Anyways ... keep on with the South Park bit, and guaranteed I'll keep a true eye for more of this. ;)

Marshall
March 15, 2006, 07:26 AM
Not quite the photo I want used for furthering the RKBA movement. Barrel long enough or not, I ain't pickin up the soap.

kngflp
March 15, 2006, 02:45 PM
What is the wieght like on the o/u compared to the auto?
I keep a 18" full stocked 870 between my bed and the wall, which is opposite of the bedroom door. I can get it into action without even having to get out of bed, but it is a little akward. It seems like a sxs or o/u in this configuration would probably be ideal for this role. As long as I had one of my other shotguns near by in case I needed more than two shots. My friend has an old sxs that was cut down to 18" and I had a blast shooting it. Just for kicks we were shooting both barrels at once, not from the shoulder, but tucked under the arm with the pistol grip snugged up against the body. Like in the pic below.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y19/kngflp/zzsawedoff.jpg

It would seem like that would be the best way to fire a shotgun like the ones you have. I couldn't imagine firing a single barrel from a pistol grip only shotgun to be much worse.

akodo
March 15, 2006, 03:24 PM
first off, I don't think that lenght requirement law should exist, so I am not going to get exited by someone putting their toe right next to it.

However, I will say that appearances can be important, and while in the end you will probably walk away scott free, getting pulled over with one of these with today's 'never held a gun before training' police, you might well find your trip to the range replaced with a trip to the police station. Got to factor this in to what you do.

Of course appearances can be in your benifit as well. I've seen many people assume that a 'coach gun' with full stock and 18+ inch barrels was a 'sawn off' and hence would have a lot more power. You might be able to turn a tidy, if risky, profit selling very short shotguns to morons. If the gungrabbers come, give them this and hide your FN-FAL, they will go away happy, then you got more time to pack your bug out bag.

Honestly, looks cool, and that is good enough reason in my book, but I personally would never do it because the potential risk of knee jerk reaction by law enforcement ruining a day or two is too high for my liking

imas
March 15, 2006, 03:27 PM
nice work

I think you inspired me to go create my own crime against humanity. I'm now on the lookout for an el cheapo 12ga.

c_yeager
March 15, 2006, 03:41 PM
Nice job! personally, i'd get rid of the "humps" on the back of the handles - unless it makes it easier to handle?? stain and finish the cut part of the wood so it looks finished - perhaps round the corners better? get come gun blue for the cut metal areas.(barrel)

I like it! the O/U looks hella fun, good truck gun, or perhaps a pump would be better for that - reliable, and more rounds...

~tmm


I think the tail of the stock greatly helps the o/u to pass the OAL requirement, so there may not be much in the way of rounding options there.

I swear, when the zombies/gas starved masses start to run the streets some of you guys are gonna die clutching your precious and unmarred bird guns, while guys like these follow in the honorable footsteps of Mad Max and turn their guns into things that will work in the cab of a semi.

Seriously though, these are just objects, who cares what happens to them. The sum-total value of any possession is measured by how much fun you have managed to have with it before you die.

huntsman
March 15, 2006, 05:22 PM
I swear, when the zombies/gas starved masses start to run the streets some of you guys are gonna die clutching your precious and unmarred bird guns, while guys like these follow in the honorable footsteps of Mad Max and turn their guns into things that will work in the cab of a semi.

well that's what we're all waiting for isn't.What makes you think they'll stay birdguns.When and if the time comes, certain modifications will be made. then we'll not worry about tape measures or dowels or G-men cause they'll be doing the same trying to survive.For now forget the macho -tac crap take you uncircumsized shotgun and break some clays or better yet kill a pheasant or a deer.

Mesa Tactical
March 15, 2006, 06:03 PM
Freebird, love your moniker: http://www.okaygood.com/icons/rockon.gif

Okiecruffler
March 15, 2006, 06:07 PM
I've been watching this thread with more than a little amusment, and abit of sadness. The shotgun forum is the only part of THR I still frequent because of all of the attacks in the other areas of THR. And now I see it's crept into here.:(
I've cut off my share of SG's, all of them cheap, most for the fun of playing with a firebreathing pistol. Some I've sawed off for reasons, the 311 that sits by my bed, the old Western Feild 16g that I carried in the rabbit briars. That O/U has me concidering buying my first O/U.

Correia
March 15, 2006, 06:19 PM
If you want really short: http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=10181

Tony Rumore does all of our custom Saiga work. I stock these. :)

And yes, they are legal SBS shotguns. You need to do a form 4, get your CLEO signature, and pay the ATF $200. Now you can be even shorter, but still have 8 rounds in the gun. And these actually work.

Mannlicher
March 15, 2006, 06:28 PM
boy, there sure are a lot of pontificating, judgmental folks here........or is that being judgmental? :confused:

I like the shorty shotties myself. I have a really nice 16 ga Stevens SXS with sawn off barrels.

Thin Black Line
March 16, 2006, 02:17 PM
OAL in length is 30 and up for long arms. Under 30 and down to 26 and
it has to be registered aka "safety inspected" by your local LEA as a
pistol. No big deal.

For example, in MI the yugo underfolders are pistols....UZIs have to have
longer barrels than what the feds require because they fold down too small.

Third_Rail
March 16, 2006, 02:28 PM
Thin Black Line, that's rather strange but good to know.

HankB
March 16, 2006, 02:43 PM
. . . a very inexpensive but decent quality Brazilian over/under for about $140.Lighten up, people . . . it's not like he chopped down a Browning Broadway handed down from his grandfather, he chopped down a really, really, CHEAP shotgun.

I considered doing that - making a short but legal (by around 1/2"!) O/U shotgun around 15 or 20 years ago when a local discount store was selling cheap Italian (Umberto Sarasketa?) shotguns - these things were so cheap they weren't even shipped in individual boxes, they were dumped into a big crate and sent here in bulk. :eek:

A friend bought one and took it apart - it looked like the interior parts had been hacked out of scrap metal by enraged drunken monkeys. I figured it wasn't worth the trouble. (My buddy polished off the many internal burrs and dropped the individual components into a case pot for a bit - that way they wouldn't wear out immediately.)

carlrodd
March 16, 2006, 02:59 PM
stiletto, i'm impressed by your thick skin through all of this....even on the other board. i think i'll saw my dad's savage 12g off. thanks for you service to our people. if you really want to leave a legacy behind, ditch the brassard and join the United States Cavalry:)

Carl N. Brown
March 16, 2006, 03:33 PM
I cut a Noble Model 40 to minimum legal, mainly because the
barrel was already cut (badly) and the buttstock missing when
I bought it for parts. its my flare-birdbomb-dragon breath platform.

Yes, some of us make a "snake gun" just to see how they work out.
Tennessee goes by the federal NFA limits by the way.

XavierBreath
March 16, 2006, 08:46 PM
OAL in length is 30 and up for long arms. Under 30 and down to 26 and
it has to be registered aka "safety inspected" by your local LEA as a
pistol.Source please.

wdlsguy
March 17, 2006, 11:31 AM
Thin Black Line is referring to some quirks in Michigan law.

http://www.ag.state.mi.us/opinion/datafiles/1980s/op06280.htm

Ardent
March 17, 2006, 12:43 PM
Other than what has to be the geekiest pic currently on a firearms forum, to each their own, and have fun :)

harrydog
March 17, 2006, 04:02 PM
I didn't see any make-up.

stiletto raggio
March 17, 2006, 08:25 PM
I don't see any make-up either... perhaps these gents are just jealous of my naturally healthy complexion or my rugged good looks.

As far as the cavalry bit goes, I was an avowed armor man until a few weeks before our branch selection. The MPs are, with few exceptions, the subject matter experts in current operations in Iraq. Also, my platoon, when we reach full pre-deployment strength, will consist of 42 soldiers, 14 fighting platforms (up-armored HMMWVs and Armored Security Vehicles) and the following weapons per vehicle : 1 crew-served (MK19.M2/M240), 1 SAW, 1 M4 w/ M203 and 2 M4s. Oh, and it is the only branch besides SF that issues sidearms to all soldiers and actually trains them on pistols. Sure, nothing beats an Abrams, but ask the DATs how often they get to use their tanks; for the most part, they aren't even deploying with them these days.

Last and not least, I appreciate the discussion on this thread. More than anything, I like to see people have their ideas/instincts challenged. After four years at the academy, my skin is thick enough for anything that can be dished out online. I hope that I have inspired some other projects and would like to see the results posted on these pages.

PS- I appreciate a nice shotgun as much as the next guy. I shoot skeet and trap rather well, and I have the sport-specific tools for my time breaking clays.

imas
March 18, 2006, 06:19 AM
Yeah I'm heading up to Gander mountain to look for cheap over and unders. If I can't find what I need then I'll check around pawnshops and such.

Very nice. I've been wanting to do that for a while and I think it's about time.

XavierBreath
March 18, 2006, 09:48 AM
After four years at the academy, my skin is thick enough for anything that can be dished out online.
stiletto raggio,
I have to admit that when I first saw the photo of you and your friend, my knee jerk reaction was assuming you were two young kids cutting down guns.

I'm glad I kept my mouth shut. Your responses and attitude on this thread while tolerating unwarranted and vehement criticism has earned you my enduring respect. Someone needs to say that, so I will.

Bravo Zulu gentlemen.

Carl N. Brown
March 22, 2006, 11:26 AM
Back in 1981 the Shooters Bible advertised these two models from
FIE: 19" barrels and 27.5 and 30" overall, the "S.O.B." sawed off barrel
and its double barrel big brother, "The Brute" both intended as
personal defense weapons. So what our 2lts did has a tradition
of sorts.
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=37398&stc=1&d=1143044375

blackhawk2000
March 22, 2006, 10:29 PM
I want to know what the hell you 2 were thinking about by not doing up a side by side? That would be sweet!! Kind of reminds me of an old toy gun I had. The stock broke off some squirt gun shotgun, so I went to work with the saw, and some tape. I loved that gun. Good for you guys to push the envelope, and ruffle some feathers.



To paraphrase a movie line: "Lighten up Francis."

stiletto raggio
March 23, 2006, 09:15 PM
The only side by side we could find in our price range was a Norinco. that menant overly heavy, poor wood to metal fit and external hammers. I am currently evaluating a number of older (abused) side bys to cut down to coach gun length. I will conduct an "angled cut" experiment during that process to see if I can get the patterns to spread horizonatally when both tirggers are pulled at the same time. Yay for excessive recoil.

The Punisher
March 29, 2006, 06:23 PM
I went all the way and filed the proper fingerprints, photos, paperwork to get my chop jobs going. After jumping through the hoops, I'm 100% legal and the short barrels are fun to shoot. In my opinion, the recoil is not bad at all and it's a fun toy to mess around with out in the desert. I think it's funny when people get in a fit over these types of weapons saying things like, "You can't do that" or "That's illegal, the authorities are going to get you" or even "I wouldn't try doing that", etc. As long as they did the research and learned how you can own exotic weapons like this, all would be better. Attached are some photos of my side-by-sides I've built and done the woodwork on. The double with the 20" barrels are next be be cut down once paperwork is good to go with the BATF.

37746

37747

kmrcstintn
March 29, 2006, 06:43 PM
:confused: :eek: :scrutiny:

1) If you take a look at some of the "import" SXS that have short barrels, you will see where the barrels were cut to 20" for sale as NIB "coach guns."

2) Before I could afford NIB stuff, I bought a slightly banged up, good functioning Savage/Stevens 67 in 12 ga for $110...a bit high, but "Tactical" shotguns were $400 + in SE TN (Chattanooga) and NW GA (Ringgold/Ft. Olgethorpe) back in 2002.

3) I had the Savage/Stevens cut to 20" by a professional gunsmith and the bead remounted & bluing touched up for $40 more. It served me for a while and then I sold it to a friend who uses it in the RV on OTR trips with his wife.

Everything is legal and hunky dorey. Keep the barrels longer than 18" and overall length at 26" or longer and you are fine.

imas
March 29, 2006, 06:53 PM
I was under the impression that short barreled shotguns had to be cut down by someone with the right type of license. Can you tell us more about this? I'm so envious. :barf:

What I mean to say is that I thought you could only buy these things. Not make them yourself. Got any links or more info? I want one.

wdlsguy
March 29, 2006, 07:09 PM
If your state allows the ownership of short-barreled shotguns, you can buy one on a Form 4 or make one on a Form 1.

http://www.atf.gov/forms/pdfs/f53201.pdf
http://www.atf.gov/forms/pdfs/f53204.pdf
http://www.titleii.com/Forms.htm

Third_Rail
March 29, 2006, 07:35 PM
The Punisher, gorgeous. Are the top two Stogers, while the third is a Baikal?

kmrcstintn
March 29, 2006, 08:59 PM
I was under the understanding that special registration with the ATF applied to those shotguns that had barrels shorter than 18" and/or overall lengths shorter that 26" (eg: special LEO entry shotguns w/ 14" barrels)

Am I mistaken? :scrutiny:

Third_Rail
March 29, 2006, 09:10 PM
kmrcstintn, you're correct. That "special registration" is the $200 tax we're talking about.

imas
March 29, 2006, 09:34 PM
:D I didn't know you could make your own. This changes everything...

Are there any websites with state by state information about short barrel shotguns? Something like packing.org

Ohio is ok right?

wdlsguy
March 29, 2006, 09:52 PM
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/usr/wbardwel/public/nfalist/nfa_faq.txt

Search for "State NFA restrictions". Ohio is NFA friendly. :evil:

lightweight
March 29, 2006, 09:55 PM
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b317/demusn79/th_IM000654.jpg (http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b317/demusn79/IM000654.jpg)
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b317/demusn79/th_IM000653.jpg (http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b317/demusn79/IM000653.jpg)
:) :) :) :)

The Punisher
March 31, 2006, 10:03 AM
Third Rail, yes the top two in my last post are Stoeger side-by-sides, while the hammer gun is an old Russian Tula model. All are in excellent condition. I pride myself on the woodwork I do even if they are guns just for screwing around with; I think a quality product is important. Plus, not too many own something neat like this. My Class 3 dealer helped with the barrel chop portion and the BATF paperwork involved. I attached a couple more photos for those interested. The Stoeger has a 9" barrel and the Russian is 10-3/4". Both are a blast to shoot. Recoil isn't as bad as one would expect or crazy looking like you might see in a movie.
37836

3783737838

Steam dragon
April 8, 2006, 10:08 AM
Ok, Now I realy AM thinking of cutting down the J.Stevens hammer gun I bought (with that in mind)
The fact that it is about a hundred years old does concern me, though.

TonyRumore
April 9, 2006, 04:02 PM
Here's a pic of a short over under I made awhile back. I think it looks pretty cool myself.

stiletto raggio
April 9, 2006, 09:55 PM
Did you have to weaken the springs in order to make these short barrels easy to break open? I noticed just going from 26" to 18" makes a big difference due toe the change in leverage.

Carl N. Brown
April 10, 2006, 01:33 PM
Two "weapons" in a SD situation are Seeing and Hearing.
To me, the muzzle flash and blast of a very short shotgun
could be a disadvantage. Plus, in court in a SD case, a
prosecutor waving about "this demon gangster weapon from
Hades with PMS" could have some jurors wondering ***?

OTOH I do own two "snake guns" myself.

Steam dragon
April 10, 2006, 08:07 PM
Ok, so I'm a wuss.

I bought my J. Stevens 235 with the express purpose of cutting it down either to minimum + .5 in, or go ahead and do the paperwork.

I couldnt do it.

Then I read this thread, and decided, "Go for it!"

That lasted untill I got the barrels into the vice.

Again, I just couldn't cut a 100 year old gun.

So I cut the barrel on an old Rossi single shot that has been quietly rusting up in my closet for years. 18.5X30.25 Bl, OAL and it shoots better now than it did before.

Y'all are just a (bad) influence, I guess...

Regarding the question posed earlier about opening the action, I have more trouble closing it than opening...

Steam dragon
October 29, 2006, 08:06 AM
Looking through the threads I reply to, I wonder why so many of them I'm the last post...

Must need to change my screen name to "Thread Killer":(

Further regarding the Rossi, I have been taking it to meat shoots at my club this past summer.

I have managed to get the freezer 3/4 full over the course of the summer.

Yesterday was the last of the season.

I didnt win didley!:cuss:

But of 22 shooters, 17 (me included) used my gun:cool: . (Rules say any shooter can "borrow" any gun. Refusal to loan gets you banned from the shoots)
My gun won every leg of the shoot. Too bad I wasn't the one shooting.:banghead:

Funny thing, Prior to shooting, guns must be checked for choke.
There is a minimum bore for each Ga (nothing tighter than "Full" allowed). Mine gets measured for barrel length each time, 'cause the no-go plug just falls in.:rolleyes:

benelli12
November 29, 2006, 06:03 PM
punisher, have you fired your sawn offs at night? If so, I bet the muzzle flash was huge

scout26
November 29, 2006, 07:41 PM
AAAAAAHHHHHHHH Thread Nercomancy.

Steam Dragon, a better name would be: Thread Killer Zombie. :neener:

PS. I'm glad you didn't hack those 100 year old barrels.

RevolvingCylinder
November 29, 2006, 09:52 PM
I guess I missed this thread but I've never seen how compact 18 1/2" X 28" really is. It looks good though I don't care much for the rear of the stocks.

ysr_racer
November 30, 2006, 01:06 AM
http://www.keepandbeararms.org/images/autoburg.gif

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