Instead of shipping to FFL, can I drive it?


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marklbucla
March 10, 2006, 05:21 PM
If transferring handguns across state lines, can I drive it to the FFL for the transfer or must it be shipped?

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SIOP
March 10, 2006, 05:22 PM
No federal law against taking it there yourself.

thorazine
March 10, 2006, 06:49 PM
Snap some pictures of your trip and post them!

Stopping off at the required,

Booty clubs.

-and-

Booty bars.





and of course a gun store or two!

aguyindallas
March 10, 2006, 08:28 PM
You CAN take it to the FFL.

You CANNOT take it to the other party (buyer).

eastwood44mag
March 11, 2006, 12:34 AM
Must save a lot if you're just across the border from the buyer.

Ain't it funny how you can cross the border to give it to the FFL, but he/she can't cross the border to get it from you? (At least, that's my understanding of it)

Graystar
March 11, 2006, 01:00 AM
As always, check state law to insure your possession is legal in the state you're traveling to. Otherwise it is NOT legal to transport the firearm to the dealer. Illinois, Michigan, New York, New Jersey, and Massachusetts are five states where your possession is NOT legal. There may be others but I canít remember them all right now.

marklbucla
March 11, 2006, 01:05 AM
Michigan!? I'd expect this out of the others, but not Michigan. Funny that they're on that list but ********** isn't.

wdlsguy
March 11, 2006, 09:25 AM
As bad as Illinois is, it's still legal to bring a handgun there. As a non-resident, make sure you transport it:

1. Unloaded, and
2. Enclosed in a case, and
3. Not immediately accessible or broken down in a nonfunctioning state.

http://www.isp.state.il.us/foid/firearmsfaq.cfm

SIOP
March 11, 2006, 09:57 AM
Ain't it funny how you can cross the border to give it to the FFL, but he/she can't cross the border to get it from you? (At least, that's my understanding of it)

There's nothing I know of that precludes an FFL from obtaining a firearm in another state, they just can't transfer one to someone at anywhere but their licensed premises address (or a gun show).

22-rimfire
March 11, 2006, 11:32 AM
Graystar, you're going to have to cite references for this statement..."As always, check state law to insure your possession is legal in the state you're traveling to. Otherwise it is NOT legal to transport the firearm to the dealer. Illinois, Michigan, New York, New Jersey, and Massachusetts are five states where your possession is NOT legal. There may be others but I canít remember them all right now."

I am not aware of any state where you can't transport a firearm if it is unloaded except perhaps NYC or DC and I don't think it is true there either.

Yeah, drive it to the FFL. No problem. IF there is a problem, the FFL will tell you ahead of time. Give him a call to chat prior to making the trip.

Graystar
March 11, 2006, 12:15 PM
Graystar, you're going to have to cite references for this statement...
No prob 22.

First, remember that the federal law that protects travel through states with firearms is only valid if your possession is legal at your starting point and at your destination.

ß 926A. Interstate transportation of firearms

Notwithstanding any other provision of any law or any rule or regulation of a State or any political subdivision thereof, any person who is not otherwise prohibited by this chapter from transporting, shipping, or receiving a firearm shall be entitled to transport a firearm for any lawful purpose from any place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm to any other place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm if, during such transportation the firearm is unloaded, and neither the firearm nor any ammunition being transported is readily accessible or is directly accessible from the passenger compartment of such transporting vehicle: Provided, That in the case of a vehicle without a compartment separate from the driver’s compartment the firearm or ammunition shall be contained in a locked container other than the glove compartment or console.
So if your possession isn’t legal at the gunshop (your destination) then you can’t legally enter that state under the protection of federal law.

Without federal protection, you're subject to arrest for violating state law.

In New York, New Jersey, Mass, Illinois, and Michigan, simple possession of a handgun is illegal. You must get government approval just to possess a handgun. So if your destination is within any of those states then you are subject to arrest if you enter with a handgun.

There may be other states with firearm registration/authorization but I don't know which ones at the moment. There are several that require a permit to purchase a handgun but I don't think there any law prohibiting the possession of handguns that you already own. Those states are California, Connecticut, Hawaii, Iowa, Maryland(?), Missouri, and Nebraska.

distra
March 11, 2006, 12:30 PM
Sorry to disagree, but according to http://www.packing.org one CAN posses a hand gun in IL, MA, and NY. IL , it just needs to be unloaded and inaccessible until you get to a range as long as you are legal in your home state. Chi-town is another story. NY, a non-resident is covered by Fed "Peaceable Journey" OR if you have a pistol match that you are going to in the state OR you must travel through to state to get there. You must have some proof of the match AND proof of your entry. MA again if you are going to a show or pistol match you can have the pistol unloaded and inaccessible without a problem. I just took a pistol to MA from CT with no problem. Even stopped and talked with TWO MA police officers. I suggest checking with ALL states you plan on going through to understand their laws and again check http://www.packing.org for more details.

Graystar
March 11, 2006, 01:18 PM
Please remember that the original question posed was travel to another state for the purpose of transferring a handgun to an FFL.

Also remember that the federal law only protect travel to your destination...the presumption being that your possession is legal at that destination. Once you’ve arrived you are no longer protected by federal law. If you do something to turn your legal possession into an illegal possession, you’re subject to prosecution.

With that said...

In Illinois the non-resident exemption is for a shooting range. A shooting range may or may not also be a gun dealer. A gun store with no shooting range would not qualify under the law. Also, a non-resident is exempt if the handgun remains in a locked container. As soon as you remove the handgun from the container at the gun store, you’re violating the law. At that point neither federal or state law will protect you.

In New York the non-resident exemption is only for travel and competition in an NRA or IHMSA sanctioned or approved match. There is no provision for dropping off your handgun at a gun store. In fact, the NYCRR requires gun dealers to notify police immediately if a person attempts to leave a handgun without having a NY license. If you try this in NY I guarantee you will go to jail for one year.

As for Massachusetts...

129C of chapter 140

CHAPTER 269. CRIMES AGAINST PUBLIC PEACE

Chapter 269: Section 10. Carrying dangerous weapons; possession of machine gun or sawed-off shotguns; possession of large capacity weapon or large capacity feeding device; punishment

Section 10.

(h) Whoever owns, possesses or transfers possession of a firearm, rifle, shotgun or ammunition without complying with the requirements relating to firearm identification cards as provided in section 129C of chapter 140 shall be punished by imprisonment in a jail or house of correction for not more than two years or by a fine of not more than $500
There are no exemption to paragraph h listed in Section 10. If a non-resident were to try to transfer a firearm to a Mass FFL he will probably be arrested.

V4Vendetta
March 11, 2006, 02:19 PM
I was under the impression that you didn't need a FFL for a private sale of a gun? I'm in NC though.

Graystar
March 11, 2006, 02:42 PM
I was under the impression that you didn't need a FFL for a private sale of a gun? I'm in NC though.Again...depends on the state, but that is generally correct between residents of the same state.

When the private party is in another state then federal transfer laws apply. You must go through an FFL.

Mannlicher
March 11, 2006, 02:42 PM
Selling to a stranger, do it by the book. Selling or giving to a relative or friend, just take care of it yourself.

Graystar
March 11, 2006, 02:44 PM
Selling to a stranger, do it by the book. Selling or giving to a relative or friend, just take care of it yourself.
I don't know...that sounds dangerously close to suggesting the law not be followed in certain instances, which is something we do NOT do here.

wdlsguy
March 11, 2006, 03:31 PM
As soon as you remove the handgun from the container at the [Illinois] gun store, youíre violating the law.

So I carry the unloaded handgun in the locked container into the gun store. I hand the FFL the key and let him/her unlock the container and remove the handgun from the container. How is this any different from shipping him/her the unloaded handgun via FedEx or UPS?

Graystar
March 11, 2006, 04:41 PM
So I carry the unloaded handgun in the locked container into the gun store. I hand the FFL the key and let him/her unlock the container and remove the handgun from the container. How is this any different from shipping him/her the unloaded handgun via FedEx or UPS?
It's still your gun...And it's out of the container. I guess if you get the FFL to complete the transfer before opening the case...

I just reviewed that law and its a bit cryptic. You're okay as long as the handguns aren't "immediately accessible." However, there's no description of what that means. If you've got the locked box in one hand and the key in the other, and it takes you all of 3 seconds to open the box and get the gun out...is it "immediately accessible"? That question might be left to a jury to decide.

Youíre also okay if the gun is ďbroken down in a non?functioning state.Ē So I guess thatís an option as well.

So I guess itís possible to do legally...but you have to be careful to follow the law and donít let yourself slip into that illegal area.

Of course, we're talking about Illinois. That locked-in-the-case-hand-the-key-to-the-FFL trick won't work in New York.

thatguy
March 11, 2006, 04:48 PM
As I understand it, a non-resident can legally transport a firearm as long as you follow the rules for storage in the vehicle. Even the states that license their residents for gunownership allow safe passage for non-residents and an FLL may always buy a gun whether it be from a visitor or from a resident of a state that the dealer is visiting.

wdlsguy
March 11, 2006, 05:39 PM
It's still your gun.

No more so than if I had shipped it via FedEx or UPS.

And it's out of the container.

You might have me there. I suppose I could leave the building before the FFL opens the case. :scrutiny: In any event, I'm a Texas resident with a Texas CHL, and the FOID law exempts nonresidents who are currently licensed or registered to possess a firearm in their resident state. :evil:

Youíre also okay if the gun is ďbroken down in a non-functioning state.Ē

In Illinois I always transport my weapons "broken down in a non‑functioning state". That way I don't need to worry about keeping them "not immediately accessible".

Of course, we're talking about Illinois. That locked-in-the-case-hand-the-key-to-the-FFL trick won't work in New York.

You need to move to a free(er) state. Sounds like even Illinois would be an improvement! :neener:

distra
March 11, 2006, 06:43 PM
Graystar, I agree in response to the posted question. I thought your response was a blanket "you can't possess if you are non-resident" which is technically not true. I agree it would be "safer" just to make the transactions through the FFL's or find some in your home state to buy it. :cool:

22-rimfire
March 11, 2006, 09:25 PM
Graystar, interesting. You do think like me. Things are pretty black and white. What you say is a technicality, but I suspect you are correct. I appreciate your taking the time to provide some backup. Do you actually think New York would prosecute such a thing? Seems like a big waste of time for the state.

I don't know exactly what I personally would do in this situation if I were transfering a gun to an FFL via courier (me). I believe I would call the dealer and talk to him about it and go from there. Of course, dealers aren't lawyers or LEO.

Graystar
March 11, 2006, 09:32 PM
Even the states that license their residents for gunownership allow safe passage for non-residents
Yes...safe passage through. That’s not the same as the state being the destination.

and an FLL may always buy a gun whether it be from a visitor or from a resident of a state that the dealer is visiting.
Not always true. In New York, as in every state, gun dealers must also abide by state law...not just federal law. New York does not allow FFLs to accept handguns from anyone who doesn’t have a New York handgun license. That includes handguns shipped from your home state. The dealers are required to turn them over to the police.

I doubt there are any other states that anal, but it can happen.

Do you actually think New York would prosecute such a thing? Seems like a big waste of time for the state.
Most certainly. New York is on this big anti-gun kick these days because two NYC cops were shot and killed within a weeks time. Bloomberg, the mayor of NYC and a major RINO has launch his own little private war against guns. :rolleyes:

They're so blind...

Lupinus
March 11, 2006, 10:15 PM
so long as you are dropping it off with an ffl and not with the buyer it is legal.

454c
March 12, 2006, 03:34 AM
Another thought.It seems to me your FFL would have to have alot of trust in the customer to do this.Since the paperwork shows the gun was sent to his FFL,isn't his butt on the line if the gun dosn't show up at his shop ?

22-rimfire
March 12, 2006, 09:57 AM
Graystar: In New York, is the handgun permit required for the entire state or just NYC? I know New Jersey has the handgun permit and there is a lot of red tape to go through prior to "being granted the privilege" of purchasing and owning a handgun.

My impression is that it would only apply to NYC as in within the city limits. It is sad that these restrictions exist at all. Shumer and Clinton and of course the mayor, Bloomberg and Gulliana (sp?) are no supporters of gun rights. I would never vote for Gullliana or for that matter any of the aforementioned for president. I don't want a president who is just waiting for the chance to sign a law further restricting the gun owership right.... Hillary would be such a president. She would not push the anti-gun agenda during her campaign, but the agenda would continue to be a fact whether or not she somehow cruised through the election stage. That woman frightens me.

Graystar
March 12, 2006, 10:08 AM
Graystar: In New York, is the handgun permit required for the entire state or just NYC?
In New York the handgun licensing system is state-wide. NYC additionally registers long guns.

Itís a very arbitrary system. Approval is left up to the county officials and they can reject you for any reason. Some counties are pro-gun and itís easy to get a concealed carry license. Other counties itís difficult just to get a premise license. Since Iím in NYC I only have a premise license.

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