'Tactical Reload' and racking the slide.

[KriegHund]

On general principle, if you do a reload where you are unsure of the amount of rounds left in the magazine, after replacing the magazine with a full one, do you rack the slide?

I think it would be a good idea unless you need to fire RFN. Better to lose a single cartridge then to not have a round in the chamber.

However, it also adds another step to the process, and your chance of a jamm while extracting a round by hand is more likely.

[Daniel Flory]

I would not rack after a tactical reload. If you are worried about your slide not locking back after the last shot in the magazine, then you either need a new pistol or you need to learn how to hold it.

[Jeff White]

KriegHund,
If you've fired your weapon and it functioned correctly, why would you think there is no round in the chamber? Thre are only a couple reasons why you wouldn't have a round chambered.

1) You failed to seat the magazine propery when you initially loaded and it dropped when you fired.

2) The last round you fired was the last one in the magazine and the slide failed to lock open.

Both of these are malfunctions Not part of a tac reload.

If you're not finshed with the immediate threat and ready to reholster, or preparing to move from a covered position into the open where you may have to engage an unknown assailant, you shouldn't be loading anyway.

Jeff

[Ares45]

Why?

That's one of the reasons for a tactical reload...no need to expend time and energy racking the slide. If you rack the slide you're just wasting valuable resources.

I don't know about everyone else but for me it's easy to tell when the slide locks. The gun feels different and sounds different. If you shoot till slide lock then obviously you have to pull the slide. Otherwise ram home a fresh mag and keep gettin it.

[crofrog]

I rack the slide on a tac load, better safe than sorry. Also it's commonality amoung training. I use the same grip and rack for every manipulation. Be it speed load, TRB or tac load.

[geekWithA.45]

I don't walk around with enough bullets to leave them lying around on the ground.

[JamisJockey]

The point behind a tactical reload is the premise that there is some sort of "lull" in the fighting you're in. You've got a full mag in your pocket, and you've not fired your gun to slide lock. You know its functioning well, you know you have ammo in the gun and one in the pipe. You're replacing your partially empty magazine with a full one. You also must retain that partial mag, you might need it later.
No racking of the slide necessary, however, make sure you slam that mag home firmly.

[Gelicious]

IF ALL ELSE FAILS then get an XD. I have a Loaded Chamber indicator. If the little button is UP on the top of the slide, which is right in line with the sights so ill know if its up while looking through them, Then you know your loaded and ready.

Plus im kinda pulling for the XD because i have a 45 and i love all the features and double saftey. But with the loaded chamber indicator there is NO QUESTIOn if im loaded and ready

[Srigs]

As long as your gun has a slide hold open on empty the answer is NO! You will know when your out... :what:

[Nitrogen]

This is why I wanted a main carry weapon (XD-9 sub) with a loaded chamber indicator.:D

['Card]

Yeah, I'm just starting to get used to that loaded chamber indicator on my XD, and the more I get used to it, the more I like it. I especially like the fact that, like the 'cocked' indicator, you don't even have to look at the gun. It's specifically designed to let you check by feel, even in complete darkness - to make certain that it's cocked and that you've got one in the chamber.

It's an officially 'cool thing' in my opinion.

[joab]

Press check

Press the slide back just far enough to visually verify that there is a round in the chamber, if you are unsure

[JohnKSa]

I'm still developing my opinion on this topic, but here's where I am right now.

If you NEED to reload, then you need to reload. NEEDING to reload means your gun is empty, and the first order of business is getting it full again.

If you don't really NEED to reload, then that's another story. You're behind cover and/or you still have ammo in your pistol and/or the threat appears to be neutralized. At this point you can assess your situation and decide whether or not to "top off".

BUT, once you dump the mag in your gun (regardless of the reason) then you're back to the first situation (you NEED to reload) unless there is absolutely no remaining threat. Your gun is empty (for all practical purposes--especially if it has a magazine safety) and your only priority should be getting it full again. Once the mag in the gun drops out, you shouldn't be doing ANYTHING but getting a full mag into the gun as quickly as is possible.

THEN, after your gun is reloaded, you can again assess the situation and decide if it's prudent/possible/worthwhile to pick up the mag you just dumped.

Since you didn't "automatically" do a "top off reload", that means you also don't have to "automatically" rack the slide.

I strongly disagree with the idea of doing a "mag juggle reload" while there is still an existing threat. Anything that leaves you with an empty gun longer than is absolutely necessary just doesn't make sense.

This "philosophy" means that you only have ONE programmed reload technique--the "fill up my empty gun that has a locked back slide reload". That one would definitely include your choice of techniques for operating the slide (slingshot or slide release).

If you DECIDE based on your assessment of the situation that you need to top off, then you will still have a round in the chamber and since there is no IMMEDIATE threat (or you wouldn't be turning your gun into a single shot--even temporarily), you don't have to go into "programmed reload mode." Just get a full mag in the gun as quickly as you can.

[JamisJockey]

Sorry you disagree.
Its a technique you must be comfortable with and practice with.
Us average civilians will likely never face a situation where we need a tac. reload. The idea goes more into the threat of a prolonged gun battle, where many rounds are being exchanged.
As it pertains to us civilians, say you're confronted by a couple assailants. Shots are exchanged and as far as you can tell the BG's have retreated or left. Are you going to stand there with a 1/2 empty gun, or slap home a full mag and be prepared to rock-and-roll again?
And dumping the half-empty mag is basically a waste of ammo. Be practiced in mag retention.

[El Tejon]

I'm with joab. Why not press check?:confused:

I use my fingers, not my eyes though. Don't want to get in habit of looking down, want to keep head up and eyes out.:)

[JamisJockey]

Just be careful with a press check. You might take the gun out of battery....no bang=bad....

I stand with my original statement. A perfectly functioning gun that you fired a few times, but didn't fire to slide lock. You have every expectation there is one in the pipe. No need to rack, press check, or anything. Swap mags, assess the situation.

[El Tejon]

Hmmm, I don't know, Jamis. That Mr. Murphy is a tricky devil.:D

[JamisJockey]

Agreed, which is why I'm not a huge fan of the press-check. I'd hate to take my firearm out of battery...
No single technique is applicable to every situation, though.

[El Tejon]

Double edged sword and all that. Darn life anyhow.:D

Taking gun out of battery vs. taking corner with empty gun, both are less than optimal.:D

[JohnKSa]

Shots are exchanged and as far as you can tell the BG's have retreated or left. Are you going to stand there with a 1/2 empty gun, or slap home a full mag and be prepared to rock-and-roll again?
And dumping the half-empty mag is basically a waste of ammo. Be practiced in mag retention.This falls into the second case--when you don't really NEED to reload.

In that case, you assess the situation to see if there is an immediate threat. If there is no immediate or apparent threat, you reload as FAST as possible. That means dumping the mag in the gun onto the ground. I don't see a need to rack the slide if you feel confident that there is already a round chambered.

Then, once you are back in business with a full gun, you reassess to see if it is prudent/worthwhile/possible to retrieve the dumped magazine.

If it makes sense to pick up the mag, pick it up. If not, leave it.

The idea of a "mag juggle reload" is not a good idea, IMO. It turns your gun into a single shot (at best) and you into a one handed shooter for longer than necessary.

[joab]

Agreed, which is why I'm not a huge fan of the press-check. I'd hate to take my firearm out of battery...All auto loading pistols have a forward assist integral to their design.

I just tried for about an hour on three different makes to get one to go out of battery and couldn't get any of them to.
Not saying it couldn't happen, but then you could have just broken your firing pin on that last round also

[smince]

after replacing the magazine with a full one, do you rack the slide?


Only on the cheap handguns that don't have a slide hold open device.

to make certain that it's cocked and that you've got one in the chamber.

All things mechanical can and have failed. Never trust a loaded chamber indicator.

[Thin Black Line]

No racking. Continue engaing the enemy and keep count of your rounds
this time. Before you've fired the last round that has been chambered
from this mag (the mag itself is now empty), drop it and insert a full mag.

[bogie]

If you don't know whether or not you're empty when you reload, you really need to play a different video game.

[Jeff22]

I believe that the H&K Academy did/does teach to manually cycle the slide after any reload, to make sure that a round is chambered.

One of the reasons they do that is commonality of doctrine through the entire H&K weapons group, because their long guns DO NOT lock open after the last round has been fired. I don't know why that is. I have an H&K 91 and have a little trigger time with the MP5 series guns, and I always thought that was a significant design flaw.

(It is possible under stress to short circuit an out-of-battery/slide lock reload by hitting the slide release BEFORE the magazine is in all the way, thus chambering empty air and creating a failure-to-fire malfunction. I've seen inexperienced shooters pushing for speed make this mistake.

Some schools teach the solution to that issue is to use the thumb of the SUPPORT hand to release the slide AFTER that hand has inserted a fresh magazine.)

But racking the slide after a tac reload done behind cover during a break in the action? Well, I suppose that's one way to be CERTAIN that there is a round in the chamber.

If you have long thumbs and shoot with the currently popular thumbs forward shooting grip, it is possible to ride the slide stop and prevent the gun from locking open when the last round is fired. In such a circumstance, you may believe that you are doing an in-battery reload when in fact the chamber is empty, and manually cycling the slide guarantees that there is a round in the chamber.

There are so many weird nuances of weapon manipulation possible, and you don't want to overthink this stuff and suffer from paralysis through analysis. Pick a manual of arms that works for you and your weapons system, and stick with it.

If you get training from a school affiliated with a particular manufacturer, remember that some of the techniques they teach will be specific to THAT particular variety of weapon, and those techniques may NOT be appropriate for some other weapons systems.

There is not one true answer. There are many answers. You just have to make sure to ask the right question

[Zak Smith]

Tactical Response also teaches to rack the slide after a tac reload.

I can see several reasons to do so:

1. It guarantees 100% a round will be chambered
2. You always do the same action after seating a mag (rack slide - gross motor movement)

They may have other reasons that I did not absorb during the classs.

The way I figure, if I am still in the fight, I will shoot to slidelock while moving (hopefully to cover) and I will do an emergency speed reload as quickly as possible, if it's possible.

I never plan to "tac reload" (IDPA style) when I'm still in the fight-- I will be delivering rounds on target or getting more bullets in the gun if it runs empty, while moving.

When talking about fire & move with teams, I can see a place for a tac reload while behind cover and other team-mates are shooting.

-z

[1911 guy]

Maybe I like to keep things too simple, but I don't get it. The purpose of a "tactical" reload is to get a full mag into a weapon that is partially empty. This means firing may be emminent or you wouldn't be worried about it. Why add another step to a simple process? Drop the mag, pound a fresh one in, pick up the dropped if you've got time. Yes, this, that or the other may happen, but I might also hit the lottery or be struck by lightning. Know your weapon. Disregard manufacturer commonality training. Train with what YOU carry. A chamber loaded indicator can show "loaded" when you've got a stuck case. Are you going to attempt to clear your weapon or say "hey, it's supposed to be loaded!" Know your weapon, know what may happen to your weapon, don't worry about modifying your training because of what might happen to someone elses weapon.

[Dave Williams]

Put me down in the camp that racks the slide every time a mag is inserted.

Dave Williams

[BothellBob]

Not my game, and I hope to never be in a situation where it's a real concern; but from a theoretical point of view:
1-When you break open the top strap all the cases are ejected by the extractor star. 2-You refill the cylinder from your speedloader. 3-Swing the barrel back until the keeper locks the backstrap into position.
What's to rack??? For that matter, what's a slide???
-BothellBob

[Jeff22]

One of the reasons that people sometimes mis-understand where the tac reload/reload with retention fits in the greater scheme of things is from a misunderstanding of IDPA rules or (most likely) having had the experience of shooting some poorly designed stages at an IDPA match.

The tac reload is to be accomplished behind cover during a "break in the action". If there is no cover, or there is no "break in the action" then the tac reload is not the proper response. It's a specialized technique meant for a specific set of circumstances.

There is no such thing as a "speed tac reload".

[El Tejon]

Bah, that's because you never seen ME do it.:D

BTW, I also have Speed Re-holstering down as well.:neener:

[Zach S]

Only with the G17 I owned, it didnt slidelock half of the time because my thumb rode against the slide stop.

My 1911s slidelock every time, so I dont bother, although I do tac reloads pretty often. Seven rounds is a lot easier to keep up with than 17 (or 33).

[Tim Burke]

Took a class where the instructor advocated this; I didn't care for the concept, but I tried to do it his way for the class. My gun reliably locks back, so I thought it was superfluous. About 15 minutes after I started doing it his way I racked the slide with a loaded chamber, and created a malfunction in a gun that almost nevere malfunctions. I took that as a sign.

[joab]

Part of the problem in this thread is a misunderstanding of "Tac Reload"

If you're at slide lock and have to reload that is not a tac reload that's just a reload hopefully a speed reload.

With a tactical reload you still have rounds left in your mag, but feel that you are gonna need a lot more than you have and have a chance to correct the problem from behind cover

ie:
You have chased a bad guy into a building that you must now go into for whatever reason
In all the confusion you don't know if you shot 5 or 6 times and you don't feel lucky punk so you top off

[JohnKSa]

You have chased a bad guy into a building that you must now go into for whatever reason. In all the confusion you don't know if you shot 5 or 6 times and you don't feel lucky punk so you top off.Right. I agree with the idea. However, I DON'T agree with the idea of juggling two magazines at once to do the reload. If there's a threat in the building, it MIGHT come back out.

So, even in that case, I would do a standard speed reload to minimize the time that the gun didn't have a magazine in it. THEN, once my gun was topped off, I would reassess the situation to see if it was safe (and worthwhile) to retrieve the (possibly) partially full magazine. After all, it may very well be that the round in the chamber was the last round and that the magazine I just dumped was empty.

I'm not going to risk a slow reload that leaves my gun empty for longer than necessary when there is still a threat in the general vicinity AND when I might be doing it to save an empty magazine.

The only times I might reconsider would be:

1. If dropping the mag were highly likely to render it useless or unretrievable (standing over water/mud/vat of acid/etc.) and I was very sure that the mag had more than a round or two left in it.
2. If I were very sure that I was in very little danger for long enough to do the reload. (e.g. Good cover with an armed partner keeping alert and ready to fire.)

[joab]

My comment wasn't meant to address the speed at which you do a tac reload, in a gunfight everything you do should be as fast as possible I suppose.
I was commenting on the remarks about there being no need to rack the slide because it should be at slide lock, which would not be the case in a typical tac reload situation

[Jeff22]

And the tactical reload works best if you have big hands and thin magazines. If you have big hands and you're running a single stack pistol, tac reloads work pretty well. (I personally have big hands and can tac reload most anything smaller than a 37mm cannon).

I have discovered from experience training people at work at the PD 5 ft tall females with little tiny hands can't tac reload a .40 cal Sig with a double column magazine . . . thus they were introduced to the concept of the "reload with retention". Which they still didn't understand, either how to perform the drill or when it might be tactically appropriate.

[Tim Burke]

I was commenting on the remarks about there being no need to rack the slide because it should be at slide lock, which would not be the case in a typical tac reload situationI don't see where anyone is confusing tactical reloads to speed reloads. If you are doing a speed reload, presumably the slide is locked back, and you have to do some sort of manipulation to drop the slide. The whole reason we are discussing racking the slide after a tactical reload is because of the possibility that there might be some confusion about whether or not there is a round in the chamber. If the chamber is full, you shouldn't need to rack the slide. If the chamber is empty, you should be at slide lock, in which case you shouldn't be doing a tactical reload at all. We aren't confused, but the technique is based on the assumption we are.

[joab]

I don't see where anyone is confusing tactical reloads to speed reloads.
My gun reliably locks back, so I thought it was superfluous.
Only with the G17 I owned, it didnt slidelock half of the time because my thumb rode against the slide stop.If you are worried about your slide not locking back after the last shot in the magazine, then you either need a new pistol or you need to learn how to hold it.
As long as your gun has a slide hold open on empty the answer is NO! You will know when your out
Only on the cheap handguns that don't have a slide hold open device.

We aren't confused, but the technique is based on the assumption we are.Huh?

[Tim Burke]

My gun reliably locks back, so I thought it was superfluous.Because my gun reliably locks back when empty, I know that when I do a tactical reload there is already a round chambered, so I don't feel the need to rack the slide.

Only with the G17 I owned, it didnt slidelock half of the time because my thumb rode against the slide stop.Because my gun does not reliably lock back when empty, when I do a tactical reload I don't know that there is already a round chambered, so I do feel the need to rack the slide.

If you are worried about your slide not locking back after the last shot in the magazine, then you either need a new pistol or you need to learn how to hold it.You see, you only need to worry about racking the slide after tactical reloads if you can't trust your gun to lock open. One solution is to rack the slide; the other is to get the gun fixed so that it locks back reliably when empty.

As long as your gun has a slide hold open on empty the answer is NO! You will know when your outAnd if you are doing a tactical reload, you aren't out, and therefore you don't need to rack the slide.

Only on the cheap handguns that don't have a slide hold open device.Since you don't know that there is a chambered round just because the slide is down, rack the slide to be sure.

We aren't confused, but the technique is based on the assumption we are.We aren't confused, but apparently we have confused you.

[innerpiece9]

Amen Tim Burke!

on a side note.. perhaps some of you folks should try and have a mag designated for dropping.... serious... If you had, youd know the telling sound of youre empty, partial, or full mag hitting multiple surfaces.... as you train in realistic reloads with it..

ip9

[joab]

We aren't confused, but apparently we have confused you.Tis possible that I over or under analyzed.
Either way I see your point

[TEXASTACTICAL]

What is being confused by some in this thread are proper terms.
Slidelock (emegency reload), Speed reload and tactical reload are three seperate types of reloads.

The one that is being confused most is "speed reload". A speed reload is done when you want to top off your gun as fast as possible. When you have fired a few rounds and the slide is forward with a round in the chamber, eject the partial mag and insert a full mag.

[JohnKSa]

TEXASTACTICAL,

Thanks for the terminology correction. I've probably bobbled the terms a few times since I didn't know the proper definitions.

So my position is (using the correct terminology) that I think the primary technique should be an emergency reload, with a speed reload being the only other technique taught.

If one desires to retain the mag after a speed reload, he should reassess the situation after the speed reload to see if it is worthwhile/possible/practical to bend down and retrieve the magazine.

I can't see the value of a "tactical" reload as a trained/practiced technique. It's a technique that provides more chances for mistakes and bobbles than an emergency or speed reload and turns the gun into a single shot (at best) for longer than necessary.

In the VERY unusual situation where good cover is available, AND the possibility of a threat immediately engaging is minimal, AND it is highly desirable to retain a magazine BUT dropping it, reassessing and then retrieving is not at all feasible THEN I can see doing a "tactical" reload. I don't see it at all as the kind of thing that ought to be mandated in any sort of match that touts itself as practical or as a technique that should be practiced as a matter of course.

I do see some value in racking the slide after any sort of reload--just to keep the procedures as similar as possible.