Being a positive voice/model


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PlayboyPenguin
March 11, 2006, 03:45 AM
There are a couple threads ongoing right now about letting other people know you have guns and what ones you have. One is about listing guns in signatures and the other is about supposed gangs targeting collectors to burgel. I think alot of people are missing the point. I feel that when you let paranoia, pressure from the left, or anything else silence you then you are no longer a positive voice for the gun movement. It seems like anti-gunnies want gun owners to be afraid to be visible with the fact that they own and enjoy firearms. Especially that they can be used for sport and not just for killing. They use stories like this one about "gangs" targeting their collections, they use threats/stories of govt intervention, they do anything they can to turn us into pariahs and use our own fears to silense us. Once you are to a point where you feel you have to hide something from other people (believe me, I know what I am talking about) then you are only a step away from looking like you are doing something sinister or deviant. I say be vocal, be visible, and be proud. Talk about what you own, lockit in a safe, and make it clear it is not a wise idea to try and take it. I do not agree with alot of people on here about a lot of things but this is one thing I think anyone that wants to retain the rights they now have should get behind. Maybe my own personal life isuues are affecting my stance, but I blieve strongly that you have to stand up and be counted or be stepped on. :)

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answerguy
March 11, 2006, 03:59 PM
I have a hunch that you say things just to stir the pot, but here goes anyways.

That you suggest that it is wrong for people to be cautious about making their gun collections public information on a public forum is just plain silly.

Why not take the lead and list your gun collection (don't forget to include the values) along with your address ( a Google map would be handy) and
maybe your work and vacation schedules too. :(

PlayboyPenguin
March 11, 2006, 04:15 PM
Answer guy, I did not say peope have to list anything. But this whole looking down your nose at people that do (which ocurs on here alot...calling them immature, juvenile, braggarts, etc.) is a bunch of bull. I respect the people that are willing to be open about what they do and why they do it than I do the ones that chastize them for it. If you want to be silent then that is fine. But don't pretend like you are doing anything positive by doing so other than giving into personal fears and self preservation. And when the average person starts to believe that guns are evil because that is all they see and hear realize that maybe you share some of the blame. As for what I own I have listed it several times. I have posted pics of myself with my firearms (even with my face) and I have been very open about where I live. Unless you do more keep criticism of this nature to yourself. People like Ted Nuggent don't hide their guns or feel afraid to talk about what they own and you can buy a map to his front door. Your need to take it to a ridiculous extreme like listing vacation schedules just illustrates that you have no true constructive comments/arguments on this topic to be heard. Do you have any idea how many anti-gunnies watch these boards and love to see the cloak and dagger mentality spread around? Gun ownership is a very "public issue" that will be affected by "public opinion" and they know a silent enemy can never win over voters. People on here love to talk about how gun rights are being taken away, violated, turned into a stigma, etc...to this I say "what are you doing to change this?" If your only answer is "I buy firearms and i join the NRA" you might want to realize how little that truely does to further the cause.

PS- Of course I am stirring the pot. If noone does all the good stuff sinks to the bottom out of sight.

fantacmet
March 11, 2006, 04:25 PM
On more then one occasion playboypenguin and I haev not seen eye to eye, but I am afraid I must agree with him on this 100%, 200%, and so much more. I am not shy about the fact that I am a gunowner, that I keep guns in the house or that I carry a gun. Some call it stupid and say it makes me a target. Yet everything I have experienced(and I live in a neighborhood noted for breakins and violence) suggests otherwise. I have heard people say no don't break into that house that crazy SOB has a gun and he'll bust a cap in your ass, he got a kid. Smart move, as they are damn right. I have a month and a half old baby and I am willing to fight to my last round and then to my last breath top protect the little guy. To those of you who whine bull????, and don't have kids, there is just no way you can truly understand. Or if you do have kids and you still whine, then you have fallen victim to the anti.

Penguin bro keep it up, be vocal. The local convenience store LOVES having me around for a short bit in the fresh air for a visit. So does their armed security. They consider me as backup. With owning firearms comes many responsabilities. Not just protecting yourself but protecting others as well. So too preserving our rights. What penguin is trying to say is don't be like a frightened little hermit crab. Sure they pack a whallop for their size but they cower inside a hole all the time like most of you see to do. Afraid to let their voice be heard. Afraid that people might know they own a gun and might alienate them. If you have that kind of social trouble might I suggest selling your guns and going to a shrink instead? Anyway just my $0.02

Rev. Michael

PlayboyPenguin
March 11, 2006, 04:28 PM
hmmmm...maybe this is just a Portland, OR mentality. :)

Beetle Bailey
March 11, 2006, 04:39 PM
Well, it's not easy to walk the fine line between security and being a "positive model" so I pick and choose what I let out and to whom. I know a teacher who makes a point of letting all his co-workers know he is a gun owner and a hunter. I've been teaching a friend to shoot for a few months now and last week he told me all his co-workers know he goes shooting on the weekends. His co-workers all think it's so cool that he's shot so many different guns(thanks to THR group shoots): AK, AR, M1 Garand, M1A, 98k Mauser, SKS, .50 BMG Sniper Rifle, Mosin Nagant, SMLE, M1 Carbine, Su-16, and some handguns. But I only let people who are close to me know I even own a gun.

On the one hand, we as gun owners shouldn't be made to feel as if we are child molesters who need to stay hidden in the shadows, but on the other hand I like my privacy, and that should be self-explanatory.

BB

P.S. I always try to portray a positive image at gun shops, gun shows, and shooting ranges, since I never know if newbies, fence-sitters, or gun haters are around.

PlayboyPenguin
March 11, 2006, 04:41 PM
Beetle Bailey, nice post. I am not saying everyone can be an activist. I am just saying the ones that choose not to be shoud be glad others do instead of trying to undermine them.

rero360
March 11, 2006, 04:43 PM
not at all, I feel the same way to an extent, I'm always vocal about being a gun owner and all that, in fact I've become pretty good friends with one of the girls in my dorm, she put up a pic on facebook of her holding a beretta 92/96 so I talked to her about it, mainly to correct her form, next thing I know I'm showing her pics of my guns and having a really good conversation about shooting.

so you never know who you might meet and find a kindred spirit just by letting it known what your interested in.

oh yeah, here you go.
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c101/rero360/2006-02-15013.jpg

Biker
March 11, 2006, 04:44 PM
I have no problem at all with folks listing their guns in their sigs. I don't because I generally keep my bidness to myself. Just a matter of choice.
Biker

PlayboyPenguin
March 11, 2006, 04:49 PM
Rero360, nice CX4...is that the 9mm? My business partner just put some money down on the .4O caliber one.

Declaration Day
March 11, 2006, 04:53 PM
I agree with you on this one Playboypenguin.

However, I think there are certain types of people who I shouldn't talk to about my guns.

Conveniently, these are also the type of people who I don't associate with at all.

Old Dog
March 11, 2006, 04:53 PM
I feel that when you let paranoia, pressure from the left, or anything else silence you then you are no longer a positive voice for the gun movement.All righty then ... First, permit me to observe that this statement is ... hogwash. The bottom line as far as gun-owners and pro-RKBA persons goes is that one absolutely must know one's target audience. Unfortunately, our cause is not yet as popular as others (gay marriage, abortion rights, finding alternative energy sources, the cult of celebrity worship, foul language in movies, obscene language in music, etc., ad nauseum).

Not listing one's entire firearms collection on an internet website is not paranoia; many would consider it common sense. Pressure from the left? Who here allows pressure from the left to silence us? I submit that if you're a member of this forum, you probably find every opportunity to talk up guns, shooting and RKBA to those you believe may be receptive. Just because someone who's a graduate student at a typical state university might not want to stand up and debate gun control with his political science professor does not mean that student is being silenced -- it simply means he's choosing his battles wisely. Anything else? Shucks, let's look at the case of a THR member who had a problem with being inadvertently outed at his place of employment ... Is he "silenced" because he feels it's in his best interests to keep his status as a gun-owner and concealed-carrier to himself? Hardly. He's exercising common sense; he's got a good job with enough positive factors to keep him there. Simply because someone's circumstances might preclude him or her from being an active voice for RKBA at work doesn't mean he or she is being silenced.

It does little good to preach to deaf ears. It does little good to espouse a cause not popular with one's employer (until one finds new employment working for management/owners with common sense). It certainly does no good whatsoever to advertise one's valuable (and dangerous in the wrong hands) possessions when one's location and residence may easily be uncovered by those who would attempt theft of said possessions.

Most of us do not have to hide the fact that we own firearms from our neighbors, employers or the general public. However, there are many legitimate reasons some here may prefer not to disclose how many of what types of guns they own, or let their employers find out that they love to shoot and, in fact, carry a concealed firearm while at work, or even display an NRA decal on their truck's back window ...

Do not presume that all who are not vociferous voices for RKBA or gun-ownership in general are not positive voices for the gun movement. The fact that they have purchased firearms, shoot them, buy ammunition and accessories, and probably are known to their families and close friends as gun-owners is in itself a positive element for the cause.

sm
March 11, 2006, 05:01 PM
I am a positive voice and role model. I just happen to choose to be low profile and discreet.

When you have been shot at, had a business removed of its safe, been shot at doing 75 mph down a road trying to run you off the road, when you have been the one that has hunkered down waiting for LEOs to show up because BGs are coming thru the roof, when you have opened the front door door to your abode and met by the muzzle of a .357 revolver with the hammer back...and by stroke of luck you answered the telephone in front of a store visible across the street to said thugs and "thought you made it" - instead they chose a competitior's wife and kids to hold at gunpoint while hubby/ daddy rode in the truck of his car for 4- 6 hrs then forced at gunpoint to open safe and $2million in goods taken...

I was raised in a certain business. By the very fact I was in said business made me a Target of Professional Thugs. These Thugs kidnapped, Burgled, Bypassed Alarms, and other unique "skills".

I have had $2million in easily portable goods on my person and nobody knew it. I was just some guy in jeans, oxford shirt and tennis shoes...

They "Popped" another fellow who could not keep his mouth shut, and looked like he had something of worth to take.

A fellow has all the tricked out logo'd gun stuff getting into and out of his house and is robbed.

I carried a bone stoock cruiser ready shotgun in a garmet bag in and out of my hotel/ motel rooms

No NRA or similar stickers on my vehicles - now I might have a ACME Delivery magnet sign ( or somesuch) so I would not get a ticket parking in an alley. One where Private Security armed with evil black rifles was watching me from both sides of alley from above.

I still contend when asked if I knew anything about Shotguns - answering " yeah my 30-30 is great on ducks" was exactly the correct answer to give at that time to promote Responsible Firearm Ownership.

Ownership suggest one is still breathing - If I'm typing this means I am still breathing.

Too many folks on this board know in Private what I have done/ do. Now that does not mean everybody needs to know my business.

FWIW I learned a lot from LEOs, Military and such folks. I also learned a helluva lot from Criminals. I stood eyeball to eyeball in a cell and asked why I was not kidnapped that night. I also stood eyeball to eyebal in a interview room and asked why a thug attemted to kill me and where in hell his buds still loose were planning on finishing what started.

What guns?

I'm just a guy still breathing being aware. Makes no nevermind to me what anyone has - really don't care as I don't meddle. Meaning I do not like being meddled with either.

So just because some of us do not "advertise" does not mean we are not role models.

Or perhaps reading Ruark's The Old Man and the Boy to kid is not Macho or good enough. Perhaps teaching a student in 29 days to shoot a shotgun and her being able to hit 50/50 and then overcome her personal date with the Devil is not good "role model" material. Instead of perusing the forum and posting - using the word processor to assist another State in CCW efforts...Assisting in some way a Lady member with something for a kid's event...not good enough...

More to Responsible Firearm Ownership than Firearms.

I'm here to make coffee, take out the trash ...read and learn best can.

Steve

fantacmet
March 11, 2006, 05:03 PM
Nice CX4, but I now officially hate you because you haveone and I don't. :neener: that will probably be my next firearm, then a 1911 and i still have to get my wife a carry gun, but gotta find one she can shoot. Need to find someone with a 9mm that will let her shoot it and rack the slide to see if she can handle it. At any rate, if you choose to keep what guns you haev private it's all good. I don't let people know what I have or how many generally. I just tend to let it pass in general conversation I'm a gun owner, a chl holder, and I am not scared to defend myself. I don't make an effort to reall advertise it and I don't make an effort to hide it. People in my home see my rifle and shotgun on the wall they get a warning to not touch them. If they want to they can ask and I will take it down and perform proper safety precedures. I'm more then willing to let someone handle my firearms unloaded of course and the ammo goes into my pocket. Thats just me though. Perhaps as you said penguin, maybe it's just us oregonians.

Rev. Michael

answerguy
March 11, 2006, 05:08 PM
I have no problem at all with folks listing their guns in their sigs. I don't because I generally keep my bidness to myself. Just a matter of choice.
Biker

So, it's a matter of choice. Interesting concept. :)

fantacmet
March 11, 2006, 05:16 PM
I know isn't it though? To think all the lefties who preach about democracy and choice are the ones who are trying to take our choice to live or die away. They can and I'm sure they will burn in hell. :fire:

Rev. Michael

PlayboyPenguin
March 11, 2006, 05:17 PM
Answerguy, the point just left 5minutes ago. You just missed it. The topic is not that everyone should do anything, the point is those that do not should not try to degrade those that do. And those that do not should really not complain too much when they feel wronged. Someone else said they are a "discreet role model"...I do not see how you can be a role model without being visible. The general public is the audience we need to win over. I tried to get my business partner and another friend interested in this board but their comments after reading for awhile ran along the lines of "these people seem to be a little conspiracy minded, paranoid, etc." and "all they ever do is try and eat their own". So what you do on here is visible outside the circle of people that post. If you cannot even accept people on here being open about what they have then how can you be expected to support it publicly. Then we all wonder why all the general public sees about firearms are videos of rednecks blowing up old cars with automatic weapons and criminals.

rero360
March 11, 2006, 05:22 PM
thanks guys, its in .40 I love it, the trigger is a little rough but its a blast to shoot

kfranz
March 11, 2006, 05:33 PM
As always, actions speak louder than words. Far louder. Quiet role models are not necessarily beaten down by the left. They are often just independent minded folk who really don't "feel" the need to share via words everything they think or believe.

One of the most overlooked keys to communication is knowing when NOT to speak. If more people were aware of the importance of saying nothing when they had nothing to say, I suspect the world would be a much more pleasant place.

:Art's gramma wouldn't approve of the word: the general public. We do not need to try to win them over. They need to leave us alone. Another MASSIVELY overlooked social skill, I'm afraid.

Old Dog
March 11, 2006, 05:36 PM
The topic is not that everyone should do anything, the point is those that do not should not try to degrade those that do.
PlayboyPenguin, perhaps you could give us an actual example of someone on this forum trying to "degrade" those that (presumably) are active in being a positive voice/model of good gun-ownership/RKBA stewardship?

Because I'm just not seein' it around here.

Just seems as though you're looking for a chance to stir up some controversy hereabouts where none really exists ... Please read all of the responses you've received thus far.

sm said it well: So just because some of us do not "advertise" does not mean we are not role models.

PlayboyPenguin
March 11, 2006, 05:49 PM
here are some quotes from previous threads about talking about what you own...
There are several government employee's cruising all these gun forums and documenting in the Big Book of loose firearms and cannons.
If you've got to brag about what you've got, you don't have very much
Personally, I look at guys that list their stuff and usually kinda laugh, but maybe it's just me
To me it looks like bragging
I've always thought that listing one's firearms in one's sig line is just a sign of immaturity.
my first thought on seeing those is "how the hell old is that guy, and why the hell does he think we care what he's got"
Let's assume the Feds, house burglars, government gun-grabbers and various other undesirable types know about these forums. And some know how to hack into data bases or otherwise find your identity. Is it a good idea to advertise whats in your toy box?
It is a proven fact that some employers monitor employees' email and internet usage, people have been arrested or otherwise gotten in trouble for things they post on myspace, Facebook and other online sites, so I would think that gun forums are no different.

There is absolutely no positive purpose served by listing all or even some of the guns you own and bragging about what you own a lot.

Advertising your guns can only harm you, it can bring you no good.

And so on, and so on. Some of these are in reference to signatures but alot are in refernce to general conversations about what we own.

kfranz
March 11, 2006, 05:52 PM
Talking about what you own and listing it in your sig line are two different things.

Talking about what you own is a natural result of the ebb and flow of conversation, and generally is the result of some interaction. Listing it in your sig line is not. Perhaps it's done out of a desire to strike up a conversation, and if that's your thing, have at it. I will continue to wonder how the hell old you are if you do, and why the hell you think I care. Two different personalitiy types, that's all.

answerguy
March 11, 2006, 06:17 PM
There are a couple threads ongoing right now about letting other people know you have guns and what ones you have. One is about listing guns in signatures and the other is about supposed gangs targeting collectors to burgel. I think alot of people are missing the point. I feel that when you let paranoia, pressure from the left, or anything else silence you then you are no longer a positive voice for the gun movement.

I have no problem with people posting info here about the guns that they own , but how is that going to make an 'image' difference on an already pro-gun message board? Should I go over to random message boards and post my list of guns at those places? What would that accomplish?

Nitrogen
March 11, 2006, 06:18 PM
I don't list my guns in my sig because I think my current sig is cooler.

Besides my collection isn't all that impressive. :uhoh:

As far as vocality, I have no problem letting people know i'm a gun owner. I, however, am somewhat careful about who I let know that I carry.

A few of my reasons: I don't want people to think i'm going to blow their brains out if they don't watch their language.
Now, I don't give anyone reason to think that, but on the subject of guns, people's opinions don't always conform to logic. Being brought up in a family and some friends that are Anti's bring that to light.

I don't want people to treat me differently because I carry. I only want someone to know for sure I carry (outside of the few people I trust to tell) is when I pull out my weapon because they've threatened my or my fianceť's life.

Now, this is just how *I* am. I can respect anyone that has no qualms about letting them know they carry daily. I also respect their friends and acquaintences that they can handle the knowledge that someone in their circle of friends carries a gun and won't blow them away over cheating at poker.

I'd explain my reasons to anyone that'll listen, and I'll listen to others as to why they disagree with me.

Old Dog
March 11, 2006, 06:24 PM
Okay, PlayboyPenguin, so to me it appears that your real issue is your feelings about what some have had to say about the practice of listing what one owns in signature lines (or otherwise advertising the state of one's gun collection within posts).

I'm not sure I have any feelings one way or another about someone's maturity level just because he/she freely gives information on his/her entire firearms collection on the internet (accessible to almost everyone in the world, practically), and I can see that you might take this personally. This does not mean, though, that I believe offering forth so much info about one's firearm collection to the entire cyberworld community is a practice that meets the common sense test -- and that's NOT being paranoid, simply exercising prudence.

However ... I simply don't think that all of this has anything at all to do with being a positive voice or role model with regard to gun ownership or the RKBA movement. Hence, your thread title is not accurate. And this certainly has nothing to do with "being silenced" by leftist forces, paranoia or anything else. It's just petty squabbling about the practice of bragging on what you own ...

NineseveN
March 15, 2006, 05:04 PM
I feel that when you let paranoia, pressure from the left, or anything else silence you then you are no longer a positive voice for the gun movement.

And if you really believed this, I would support you. Now when you practice what you preach and stop trying to label some of us as 'extremists that hurt the gun movement because of our all or nothing attitudes and how vocal we are', I will begin to try and believe that you truly meant that statement.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=2316530&posted=1#post2316530

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=2316530&posted=1#post2316530

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=180621

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=181542 (won't open carry because of the statement and disturbance it makes)

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=181678 (the Michigan full-auto thread)

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=181730 (where you wanted to limit who could own a gun based on your personal feelings)

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=182030 (this one is really good, if we don't serve, we shouldn't have a patriotic stance on the founding documents or this country).

PlayboyPenguin
March 15, 2006, 05:21 PM
NineseveN, was there a point to this? I am not sure whether to be flattered that you find me so threatening or sad for you. Every statement you linked is one I see no problem with. The ones about the video are me standing against people putting out blatantly stupid material as if they represent the gun community. The others where I support limits on sale of firearms to violent felons, minors and the mentally incompetent are also part of being a respectable gun owner in my opinion. I also still would not open carry in most situation because it is just not worth upsetting people in a restraunt or a public library to me. I am still unsure about my feelings on automatic weapons. I have stated that many times and attacks from "far righties" just helps me think that maybe I have reason to be concerned. I guess I should also apologize for being proud of my service. I am sorry that I cannot support gun ownership and be a positive role model for RKBA in the "all or nothing" manner that you seem to have buried yourself into but I will never be someone that cannot see all aspects of an issue nor would I ever want to be someone that follows blindly. I guess you feel that the only good stance for a gun owner to make is to stand in public with a gun on my hip screaming "from my cold dead hands".

NineseveN
March 15, 2006, 05:44 PM
The point was your statement about "I feel that when you let paranoia, pressure from the left, or anything else silence you then you are no longer a positive voice for the gun movement." is not genuine as you brow beat others for doing the same when they do not agree with the way you think things should be.

You go out of your way to argue against or discredit those of us that actually support the 2A as it is written because we don't let anything, including your cries for our compromise and moderation, silence us. Practice what you preach or don't preach. It's that simple.

I'm not even a republican, but you lump me in with the "far righties", I simply support the founding documents and the Bill of Rights as they are written and intended. Somehow that makes me extreme according to your rhetoric; it doesn't, it makes me a profound believer in the constitution. Just because you own guns does not mean you truly support the RKBA, exercising your rights is not the same as supporting them or fighting for them. The issue is not your stance, it's the disingenuous nature of your professing that if you don't speak, you're a bad gun owner and then turning around and giving those of us that do speak up a hard time and saying we're bad gun owners because you don't like the message, even though it is supported by the very documents that illustrate the rights we're discussing.

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