[cubanpimp]

"any portion of an establishment licensed to dispense alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises, which portion of the establishment is primarily devoted to such purpose"

what does that really mean? I can still pack in a restaurant that sells alcohol, but not stand by the bar???

[CZ-100]

Yes... you are Correct.

Example: You go tto Outback Steakhouse, you can go in and eat dinner but you can not go into their bar area and either sit at the bar or the tabled around the bar.

[Jeff Timm]

Yes, BUT, some places get a little vague about the location of the Bar area. Like the local TGI Fridays, if I go right at the entrance I'm safe, but if I go left I'm BUSTED! Not a good position to be in, especially if the toilets are on the other side of the bar area. One of the local 24 hr Denny's has a "pub" in a separate room, that's fairly safe.

Geoff
Who is very, very paranoid when it comes to Lawyers. :what:

[cubanpimp]

thank you guys, that made sence to me....so if I go bowling and there is a bar by the pool tables, as long as I stay away from the bar I can play pool? and the same would go for a gas station that seels beer I can still go in and just stay away from the beer????. these are all too comfusing!

[Falconeer]

thank you guys, that made sence to me....so if I go bowling and there is a bar by the pool tables, as long as I stay away from the bar I can play pool? and the same would go for a gas station that seels beer I can still go in and just stay away from the beer????. these are all too comfusing!
The gas station shouldn't be an issue; I'm assuming a gas station is selling, not serving. Don't drink it and keep it in the trunk and you should be fine. In my opinion anyone who drinks and carries needs to sell the handgun and slam their head in a car door a few times to stimulate brain activity. :)

The bowling alley with bar is a bit stickier. If the tables could be considered part of the 'bar', then technically you'd be illegal. If you CCW in Florida, you should own a copy of Florida Firearms Law: Law, Use and Ownership (http://floridafirearmslaw.com/indexbook.shtml). It's written by a Florida attorney who specializes in firearms law and is very readable. Trust me, it's not at all out of the ordinary to find LEOs who are just as mistaken about CCW laws as civilians. There's a LOT to know.

[joab]

what does that really mean? I can still pack in a restaurant that sells alcohol, but not stand by the bar???Correct with a minor adjustment.
You cannot even walk through the bar area, if going to the restroom requires you to pass through the bar you are technically in violation.

No you cannot play pool at the bowling alley, it's part of the liquor serving part of the establishment (if the lay out is the same as the alleys I used to go to).
Generally if it is part of the area that the bartender or barmaids are responsible for keeping clean it's part of the bar

[AirForceShooter]

it's CONCEALED!!!!
Who knows!!

AFS

[Falconeer]

it's CONCEALED!!!!
Who knows!!

AFS
Perhaps the undercover officer who's having dinner and sees it printed when you happen to bend over to tie your shoe/pick up your napkin/etc? :)

[AirForceShooter]

if my experience meeting LEO's here is any indication , you'll be thanked for carrying.

AFS

[Falconeer]

if my experience meeting LEO's here is any indication , you'll be thanked for carrying.

AFS
Well, the simple fact of the matter is carrying in a bar in the state of Florida is against the law. It's not whether you can get away with it or not. It's my belief that as CCW holders we have a responsibility to hold ourselves to a higher standard. Where do we draw the line if we start 'bending' the law?

[45Broomhandle]

In one of Daytona Beach's larger gun shops a few years back, I proudly mentioned to a clerk that I, my wife, and our daughter, had all just completed the safety course required to obtain our Concealed Weapon Or Firearms Licenses.

Evidently not anxious to make a sale, the klutz proceeds to lecture me on how useless the license is and why he'd NEVER apply for one, but just take his chances. He began listing all the places one CANNOT carry - such as this bar issue - and ended his diatribe by asking, "If you can't carry in all these places, why bother getting one?" I don't know why he wasted so much time outlining all this to me. He could have saved his breath and just said, "Man! Are you folks ever stupid!" Needless to say, I've never been back there.

Also, about every gun shop in this area has a notice on the door that if you're not a LEO you'd better not carry on THEIR premises, licensed or not. What great welcoming tactics these shops maintain! I don't buy from any of them unless absolutely necessary.

ADDITIONAL INFO. I just clicked on the book title mentioned above and got nowhere. Then went to www.amazon.com, entered the title and found used copies $10 plus $3 for shipping.

http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/7016/nranopetagevarmsupporttroopsem.jpg

[cubanpimp]

i DON'T CARRY BY BARS, i THINK i'LL TRY TO KEEP MY CCW, I have met many cops and aver 75% of them look down on people with CCWs, they think only cops should be armed, and ask ???? like, why do you need it? if one day I see a cop who i know is anti ccw getting stabbed I will call 911 and tell the guy to stop, but will not help, when the news anchor asks me why I did nothing, I will say, he specifically told me there was no reason to carry, so I followed his wishes of not letting a civilian get involved....sorry for the rant, there are good leos outthere.

[jamez]

I'm from Texas and will be traveling to Florida for a family vacation soon. I understand the laws in Flordia are very similar to Texas in CCW but this has me questioning the 'bar' issue. If it's anything like Texas there should be a sign indicating that 51% or greater of their income is from the sale of alcohol consumed on site. The letters on the sign are to be black and be a particular size and a screened back red 51% on the background to indicate clearly to CCW patrons that carry is prohibited. It should also be a 'given' that a bar is an off-limits place for CCW. Here in Texas I can drive/walk to the store, or ride a horse even :p , with my companion and buy beer. The whole idea is to keep the handgun and alcohol consumption away from each other, which should be common sense. I'm still waiting on the 'hard liquor and handgun night' at Ranger's stadium. ;)

[AirForceShooter]

I carry with a CCW so I'm supposed to live up to a highter standard??

Nope, not me.

I live by the same rules everyone else does.

AFS

[Rockstar]

Preferring to assume that the threadstarter was looking for legitimate information and not trying to "bend the laws," I'd have to say that it'd take a real lowlife prick of an l.e.o. to bust somebody who's seated properly in a restaurant, when that person walked near the restaurant's bar on the way to the bathroom. I don't believe you'd find an arrest happening for such behavior in FL.

It's pretty clear what the legislative intent was when the FL "carry" laws were drafted permitting concealed carry in restaurants that happened to also have a bar.

[joab]

If it's anything like Texas there should be a sign indicating that 51% or greater of their income is from the sale of alcohol consumed on site. The letters on the sign are to be black and be a particular size and a screened back red 51% on the background to indicate clearly to CCW patrons that carry is prohibitedNo such signs here. The rule is explained in the pamphlet covering the laws that came with your application you are expected to be knowledgeable of the laws that apply.

It does not necessarily take a prick to enforce the law.
A new cop that doesn't understand street justice and naively thinks that he is supposed to actually uphold the laws of the state would be all that it takes.

[Jeff Timm]

.45 Broomhandle opinied, "Also, about every gun shop in this area has a notice on the door that if you're not a LEO you'd better not carry on THEIR premises, licensed or not. What great welcoming tactics these shops maintain! I don't buy from any of them unless absolutely necessary."

It's been my experience that gunshops and ranges have armed personnel, the requirement for customers not to carry seems reasonable especially when target ID is considered. Hit the deck and let them handle it.

Geoff
Who noticed the young lady was carrying a nice revolver on her hip, I missed the lavolier holster with the NAA revolver around her neck, hanging, uhh well in a well endowed area. Some pistolero I am! :uhoh:

[jamez]

Again, I'm from Texas and an indoor range I frequent has a similar sign outside simply stating, 'please unload ALL guns outside prior to entering' which I spoke to the owner about. He stated the reason for the sign is for any guns that are to be used on the range. There is an inspection of the guns before they make it out on the range, which every place should do this for patron protection, and he doesn't want to be picking up a loaded weapon for inspection. If you come into his shop intending to buy something or with a CCW you don't intend to shoot, he has no problem with you carrying. But then again, I love this great state we live in, not to put Florida down. So many more people seem to be gun friendly even if they don't CCW. :rolleyes:

[k_dawg]

There is no requirement for a place of business to post a 51% rule sign. In face, I have never seen it.

The real issue would be at resturants with bars, such as Applebe's etc. Where is the "magic line"? It is just the seats at the actual bar, or the tables around the bar? Do they even seperate the registers between the areas?

:cuss: :banghead: :cuss: :banghead:

[cubanpimp]

this is a touchy topic, I will ask police men in Miami and get some facts to post later.

[DunedinDragon]

this is a touchy topic, I will ask police men in Miami and get some facts to post later.

Unfortunately, asking a police officer won't do you much good other than finding out what THAT police officer's feeling about the matter are. The real person that matters is the District Attorney and how they interpret the laws...which as District Attorney's go..who KNOWS what they might be thinking...if they actually DO think.

[XDKingslayer]

Dunedin is correct, don't rely on LEO to know the laws, especially on CCW instances where their personal prefferance and the laws are usually two entirely different things. Get with your District/State Attorney and talk to a supervisor, which is usually a senior attorney.

Florida's laws are pretty simple once you understand them. And all of the ones that are mildly confusing such as carrying in a restaurant that also serves alcohol and carrying in your car without a CCW are the ones the cops usually screw up.

[joab]

don't rely on LEO to know the laws, especially on CCW instances where their personal prefferance and the laws are usually two entirely different thingsI was just informed by my BIL, a sargent with a local sheriff's department that it is illegal to CCW in a family establishment, such as a WalMart or Albertsons or family restaurant..

His reasoning is that his department recently arrested a man for carrying in an Albertsons grocery store.
After a little prodding as to why the police were called he told me that the store manager had asked him to leave and he refused citing his CCW as legal permission to carry where ever he wanted.

Even police who pride themselves on knowing the law and truly do try to keep up on it sometimes get it wrong

[Mulliga]

His reasoning is that his department recently arrested a man for carrying in an Albertsons grocery store.
After a little prodding as to why the police were called he told me that the store manager had asked him to leave and he refused citing his CCW as legal permission to carry where ever he wanted.

Was it open carry? I don't see how a store manager could have spotted a gun otherwise.

If it was concealed, and the man printed or told people he had a gun, if you are asked to leave, you must leave or you're trespassing. But it's obviously not against the law to CCW in Wally World.

Your BIL needs to read FL law.

[Dave P]

"I was just informed by my BIL, a sargent with a local sheriff's department that it is illegal to CCW in a family establishment, such as a WalMart or Albertsons or family restaurant.."


I love it! I'm hope you straightened him right out?!

[joab]

I tried but he is going to send me the part of the law that supposedly makes this stipulation.
I'll wait for it before I get to intense.
But he is very pro CCW and is the one that got me the paperwork to apply and did my fingerprints, so he's not coming at it from a anti position

There is wordig that says that you cannot carry in an establishment against the owners wishes and he simply was misinformed or misinterpretd why they were arresting the guy.

As to why the manager knew the guy was carrying that's still a mystery to me I didn't want to divert the conversation.

But like I said, and he admits, cops don't know all the laws they can only be familiar with the ones that they come into contact with frequently.

[jamez]

A lot of the officers here aren't really 'up' on the CCW law. It's hard from one officer to the next to get acurate information without their own opinion being inserted, for or against. We were pulled over in Godley, TX and the officer didn't even know the laws for transport of a firearm. He had to contact his supervisor, officer called him his cheif, and contact DPS for the 'truth'. He was fixing to take us all to jail when we were legally transporting. :fire: I advised him I was not trying to be an ???????, but he'd better make sure he's CYA'd before he begins to put someone under arrest. It was somewhat tense and he walked away with the knowledge that he needed to be more informed about gun laws in the state. Especially as gun friend a state as Texas is. No matter what happens, or how close things get sometimes, I love this state! :D

[DunedinDragon]

There is wordig that says that you cannot carry in an establishment against the owners wishes and he simply was misinformed or misinterpretd why they were arresting the guy.

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for him to provide you with that stipulation. I don't think it exists. On the other hand, the way you describe the situation the CCW person was asked to leave and refused saying he had the right to carry. While that may be true, if he's asked to leave ANY establishment for ANY reason and doesn't he's trespassing. I don't think he broke any Florida statutes relating to firearms, but he certainly broke statutes regarding trespassing for which he could be arrested.

[joab]

My comment was poorly worded.
If you are asked to remove your firearm or leave and establishment you must comply otherwise you can ,as I believe Delbert was, be arrested for trespassing and possibly armed trespassing.
Either way you probably just lost your permit.

I have no doubt that he will provide the information as promised he's not the type of person to blow smoke.
I'm just going to have to point out where he is misinterpreting. Hopefully he does it by e-mail instead of in person just in case I need some help from you guys on my argument.

He's not a bad guy he's just a by the (dept) book cop and a stickler for the law.

I don't have the heart to point out to him that we we were shooting an illegal shotgun of my recently deceased step father this weekend which went unnoticed by him.
It's at the bottom of a very deep body of water now
but I had to shoot it just once at least

[XDKingslayer]

When I first bought my pistol and started brushing up on the laws, I made the mistake of talking to LEO's as I work with them. You would be unpleasantly suprised at the number of them that honestly don't know their mudvain from a hole in the ground when it comes to the 790 laws.

When I read them I understood that I could carry my pistol, loaded and unholstered in my unlocked glove box WITHOUT a permit. I asked several cops for clarification. Some told me it wasn't legal to do that. One told me that it has to be unloaded, holstered, and the ammo locked up in a box or in the trunk. A few told me they have a 3 step rule, that if it takes you over 3 steps to get the pistol ready to fire, then it's fine, which shows their preference to personal opinion over actual law. I really don't blame them as thier goal is simply to go home alive at the end of their shift, however, when you get pulled over and have to open your glove box to get your registration and insurance card, there isn't going to be an attorney rushing to your aid on the side of the road. He won't get there until you get your 1 phone call...

I keep a copy of the 790 laws in my glove box. I will NEVER advise anyone to ask LEO for clarification of ANY law let alone the ones that directly effect me. I don't have any thing against LEOs, but expecting them to know each and every law on Florida's ever changing books is rediciulious.

They're still human. And you still have to do what you need to do to CYA.

[Dave P]

Joab: It's at the bottom of a very deep body of water now

In Ocoee?? I didn't think Lake Apopka was more than a few feet deep - or maybe you found a slow flowing spring??? :)

Dave

[joab]

Mom lives by Titusville

I don't think you can get a boat out the middle of Lake Apopka without the contaminants eating a hole in the bottom of it

but expecting them to know each and every law on Florida's ever changing books is rediciulious.I worked in about five different city's police stations and two county sheriff offices a few years ago.
I went around asking random officers in each office about carrying a switchblade under my CCW permit, just to see the reaction based on a similar comment from a friend of mine

Well over half thought that the permit covered handguns only and most thought that switchblades were still illegal about five or six months after the law changed
One of the guys I asked was a chief of detectives and another a small town chief of police.
There are just too many laws that change too often to expect LEOs to be completely aware of every intricacy of every law. If they were we they would be called lawyers making a lot more money and getting shot at a lot less
Hell the BATF can't even agree on all the laws

[Ledhead686]

Glad I ran into this thread...

I myself am going to apply for a CCW in "The Gunshine State" -- as the Brady leftists now sarcastically refer to it ever since the "Meet force with force" bill was enacted last Oct. -- and didn't realize how fuzzy/complicated (purposely, I wonder?...) rules/regs. actually were regarding this.

btw -- I may have somehow missed it here, but what are the penalties for getting "caught" with a firearm in a bar, on school grounds, etc. anyway?...confiscation of your CCW?

[DunedinDragon]

btw -- I may have somehow missed it here, but what are the penalties for getting "caught" with a firearm in a bar, on school grounds, etc. ayway?...confiscation of your CCW?

From my reading of the statutes it's a 2nd degree misdemeanor which doesn't automatically mean you're license is suspended. However the judge can decide to suspend/revoke your license as part of the sentencing if he/she wants to....and probably would.

You're probably best off if you get Jon Gutmacher's book on Florida Firearms Law as he draws from specific cases he's represented in court.

http://www.floridafirearmslaw.com/indexbook.shtml

[Ledhead686]

Thanks for the link and the help, DD. So it appears, when all is said and done, that it's at the discrepancy of the individual judge...makes sense. (The way my luck's been running lately, I'd appear before a Brady supporter if I found myself in such a situation. :rolleyes: )

I suppose we Floridians should be thankful we're not residents of a state that's decidedly anti-gun, such as those in the NE (where I lived for many years btw). Sure as shootin', the CCW would be suspended in such a case -- I'd lay money on it.

[ShootingEnthusiatist]

I just received my Florida CCL. During the one-on-one class I asked the instructor about this. Basically its to keep people from carrying in bars. If alcohol is the primary thing served do not bring in your gun with you to the bar. However, if it's a restaurant with a bar, you should have no problems.

I liken it to the smoking law here in Florida (except backwards). If alcohol is not the primary means for that establishment (i.e. real food that people sit down to eat) then you aren't allowed to smoke. However, if it's just a watering hole then smoke all you want.

I've worked (tended bar and waited tables) in many restaurants. I'd like to think I won't have any problems while eating dinner with the family. It's that walk to the truck afterwards that usually gets my attention!

[joab]

However, if it's a restaurant with a bar, you should have no problems. As long as you don't enter the bar area of the restaraunt