Marilyn vos Savant on suing gun manufacturers


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Frandy
March 12, 2006, 09:04 AM
Works for me...

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=36997&stc=1&d=1142172179

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Lupinus
March 12, 2006, 09:12 AM
we need a clapping smilie

thats a +1

kel
March 12, 2006, 09:53 AM
Nice to see a short and sweet answer to an obvious question.

hksw
March 12, 2006, 10:38 AM
Try some of her (and her readers') puzzles.

mordechaianiliewicz
March 12, 2006, 10:46 AM
I get very tired of people blaming others for their ills. If a corporation dumps chemicals that cause cancer, sue the :cuss: out of them. If you are hit by a drunk driver sue the :cuss: out of them.

If you take heroin, or get drunk all the time you brought it on yourself. A little self-responsibility is called for here. Everyone knows that fast food is bad for you. This is not new news. If you get fat, and have heart attacks b/c of it, you knew what was gonna happen.

Holding McDonalds liable for people's poor diet is like holding Jack Daniels responsible for alchoholism. When will people realize everything on the planet has a market even the most destructive vices. Get over it.

I totally support this legislation.

71Commander
March 12, 2006, 11:04 AM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/tucker13/clapping.gif

River Wraith
March 12, 2006, 11:12 AM
Sweet...and she's hot too.:cool:

boofus
March 12, 2006, 11:40 AM
She's got a brain to match her looks too. She has the highest recorded IQ of any person in the world. She took a monitored IQ test when she was 10 and scored high enough to beat most 22 year olds.

Of course the liberal so-called 'intellectuals' like kennedy, kerry, schumer, brady, feinstein, chomsky and streisand will call her a mouth breathing idiotic redneck for not supporting their gun grabbing, regardless of her 228 IQ.

In American Mensa, which is she is a member of, many of the letters written in the national magazine take a decidedly libertarian slant. Ayn Rand quotes abound. Granted there are a few kumbaya, world peace idiotic liberal arts types that manage to score well enough in language tests to join but the vast majority are libertarian/conservative.

bumm
March 12, 2006, 12:11 PM
>Granted there are a few kumbaya, world peace
> idiotic liberal arts types that manage to score
> well enough in language tests to join but I'd
> wager most of the Mensa members with really good
> math, logical and analytical skills are solidly
> libertarian/republican.

I have my doubts about that. It's takes a slightly different type of person to make note of their own intelligence, and want to belong to Mensa, then go to the trouble of taking tests and joining. The few members I've known have been intelligent people, but not very "wise."
It would be so fun to see the mail she gets from that column. :D
Marty

boofus
March 12, 2006, 12:13 PM
Most people get in with their SAT, GRE, or MCAT score, which you gotta take to get into a decent school anyway. Hell they even accepted US Army proficiency tests a while back. It's mostly just ordinary people with ordinary lives that noticed they happened to score really high on some test a long time ago that get curious and apply.

The egotistical, self proclaimed 'intellectuals' that toot their own horn are people like ward churchill, howard zinn, noam chomsky, and barbra streisand and they most certainly are not members.

beerslurpy
March 12, 2006, 12:30 PM
IQ tests have difficulty measuring above 140. The tests arent meant to measure the top 1% of test takers accurately. There are specialized tests you can take for the higher levels of intelligence, but the takers are obviously self-selected and they prep for the tests beforehand.

Remember that IQ is your relative intelligence compared to everyone else, with 100 being at the middle. Every 15 points is another standard deviation. There is practically no one with a 200 IQ in the world. The high 190s is already 1-in-a-billion, so you are already talking of a group of people with only 6 members. Good luck finding a general test that only 6 people can pass without factoring in differences based on preparation or environment or language.

Here is something for you to ponder:
http://i2.tinypic.com/r9lc04.jpg

boofus
March 12, 2006, 12:54 PM
Well the point is she recognizes that penalizing the manufacturer for the actions of an unrelated individual is absurd.

Either way it works out.

If you think she doesn't have "street smarts". Then as naive as she is, she still recognizes that the very concept of holding a 3rd party responsible for something they have no control over is absurd.

If you think she is absolutely brilliant, then she sees something most liberals can't wrap their little minds around.

Like I said either way it works out in our favor. :cool:

peoria46
March 12, 2006, 01:05 PM
The few members I've known have been intelligent people, but not very "wise." I take it that you're too wise to be a member.

beerslurpy
March 12, 2006, 02:05 PM
Mensa is stupid because it's too easy to get in and anyone that would want to join such a club is probably an ass-hat. Just join a club doing something that interests you. Joining a club for "smart people" just seems like a bunch of empty self-congratulation.

Art Eatman
March 12, 2006, 02:30 PM
When they raised the dues to $59/yr I dropped out. :) From a money's-worth standpoint, that was wise. :D

Art

unspellable
March 12, 2006, 03:31 PM
The distribution above appears to be non-skewed. This surprises me. Let's assume that for normal healthy individuals the distribution would be non-skewed. Then there are people who have various medical conditions that can result in a lower IQ. For example people with Down's syndrome tend to have lower IQ's, very few of them would score as high as 100 on an IQ test. It would seem to me that becasue of people with various conditions the distribution for the population as a whole ought to be skewed towards the low side. or are we to assume the distribution applies only to the normal healthy population with all the people with related problems not being included? I don't know of any medical condition that causes a higher IQ.

Librarian
March 12, 2006, 04:29 PM
Extensive studies of reliability, validity, and fairness were conducted as part of the SB5 standardization. The SB5ís main technical features are briefly outlined here. The normative sample for the SB5 included 4,800 subjects aged 2 to 96 years. The highest age grouping employed in the norm tables was 85+. The composition of the normative sample closely approximated the stratification percentages reported by the U.S. Census Bureau (2001). Stratification variables included gender, geographic region, ethnicity (African-, Asian-, and Anglo/Caucasian-American; Hispanic; Native American; and Other), and socioeconomic level (years of education completed, or parentís educational attainment). Additionally, subjects were tested (N = 1,365) from officially documented special groups such as individuals with mental retardation, learning disabilities, attention deficit, and speech or hearing impairments.

Internal-consistency reliability ranged from .95 to .98 for IQ scores and from .90 to .92 for the five Factor Index scores. For the 10 subtests, average reliabilities (across age groups) ranged from .84 to .89, providing a strong basis for profile interpretation (see Rapid Reference 1.4). Split-half reliability formulas were used for subtests and composite reliabilities for IQ and Factor Index scores.
ESSENTIALS OF STANFORD-BINET (SB5) ASSESSMENT (http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:5-_SDwIu99EJ:media.wiley.com/product_data/excerpt/49/04712240/0471224049.pdf+Stanford-Binet+SB5+normative+data&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=4&lr=lang_en) (Google 'show .PDF as HTML link)

Krenn
March 12, 2006, 06:37 PM
unspellable

IQ distribution
The distribution above appears to be non-skewed. This surprises me. Let's assume that for normal healthy individuals the distribution would be non-skewed. Then there are people who have various medical conditions that can result in a lower IQ. For example people with Down's syndrome tend to have lower IQ's, very few of them would score as high as 100 on an IQ test. It would seem to me that becasue of people with various conditions the distribution for the population as a whole ought to be skewed towards the low side. or are we to assume the distribution applies only to the normal healthy population with all the people with related problems not being included? I don't know of any medical condition that causes a higher IQ.
__________________
unspellable

Asperger's Syndrome is heavily skewed towards higher IQ's, although that's not absolute.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asperger%27s_syndrome

brickeyee
March 12, 2006, 07:06 PM
"Good luck finding a general test that only 6 people can pass..."

IQ tests are not a pass-fail test. They are a set of questions, mostly logic based, with a distribution of complexity. Given the time limit, if you have to think about some fraction of the questions you will not have time to answer the remainder.
Given enough time you could probably work out even the hardest. The difference is that higher IQ people can solve even the more complicated problems quickly.
Over a large population, the scores are very evenly distributed along a normal ('Bell') curve.
Certain groups have a higher mean than others, but group distributions do not tell you anything about the next person you meet.
High range IQ tests do have a larger error distribution, but if you are at 180, it is not very important if you are actually 160, or even 200.

beerslurpy
March 12, 2006, 07:43 PM
Boofus
First off, there is no available stereotype of mensa members that I was drawing upon. This is my opinion, based off the likely choices one would have to make to want to join mensa. You may think mensa is awesome, which I dont begrudge you this in the slightest. I just dont think it means anything.

Brickeye
Way to intentionally miss the point. The standard IQ test cant measure above 140 accurately. Also, it doesnt measure intelligence, it measures RELATIVE intelligence. This is a huge distinction. If everyone got lead poisoning tomorrow and you didnt, you would probably leap up 30 or 40 IQ points immediately. It also isnt a linear scale. 50 percent of the population is between 90 and 110. 1 percent of the population is between 132 and 135. .04 percent is above 150. Get the idea?

If you are going to go that many standard devs from average, you are going to need some sort of test that divides people accurately into that group or the groups beneath it. Either you are one of the 6 people that can occupy the 200+ group or you are not. That sounds like pass fail to me.

Consider that:
-Except chinese, there aren't any languages spoken or read by more than a billion people that could take a single test. So much for fairness.
-Even if everyone understood the same language, the test would have to be of such difficulty that it would be as much a test of your ability to take that test as it would be a test of general intelligence. Somone could devote their whole life to acing that test and have no useful knowledge outside of the knowledge for that test. What was the test measuring then?

Do you begin to appreciate why testing for IQ in the one-in-a-billion groupings is inherently pointless?

mountainclmbr
March 12, 2006, 08:55 PM
The Mensa members I have known were all social reject and wierded out types. I don't think crazy=smart. All Mensa members I have known also had terribly complicated lives which I have always thought was their fault. Glad I never joined.

zahc
March 12, 2006, 09:00 PM
If McDonald's and guns can be used without abuse, so can tobacco. Hot or not, smart or not, I disagree completely with her answer.

ArmedBear
March 12, 2006, 09:17 PM
I believe that cigars can be used without abuse, but that cigarettes are so damned vile that they cannot.

I used to smoke a pack a day, despite the fact that I have a Mensa-level IQ, or at least I did before I smoked it away...

Now I just shoot trap. No stupid addictions here.:p

I don't know if I've met many or any Mensans, though I certainly have known many people who could have joined. But I'm an LP member, which is at least as bad and likely far worse, and unquestionably as masturbatory.

Libertarian Party is an oxymoron. I guess so is a social club for those who are "differently abled", socially.

Maybe we should start the American Stereotyping Association.

Art Eatman
March 12, 2006, 09:18 PM
Now, mountainclimbr, there ya go, generalizing from not much data.

Lessee: There are some 120 million people involved with gun ownership in the U.S. The NRA has some 3+ million members.

Mensa is open to the top 2% of IQs, or in the U.S. some six million people. Yet, the membership is around 30,000 or so.

Seems to me that one could make nasty generalizations about the NRA, just as easily as about Mensans.

And I just really do have difficulty seeing myself as any sort of social reject. :D:D:D

Heck, I might generalize that people judge others by themselves! :D:D:D

Halfway serious but of no particular importance: My mother was an assoc. prof. in the UT Psych Dept when the folks at Stanford were working up the Binet IQ Test. This was cooperative, nationwide effort as I understand the deal. My junior high school provided a bunch of the guinea pigs. I guess this was around 1946.

Mostly because of the time factor, I blew out the curve. A bunch of grad students had to go back and re-do a bunch of stuff. I got griped at for years on account of my embarrassing her. The ancient, "My son did WHAT?" Hey, I couldn't help it if the test was easy! :D

What I gather about it all, basically, is that IQ is best regarded as a capability for learning. It has zilch to do with common sense, practicality or wisdom. And it sure doesn't mean that bright folks will actually learn.

Art

ArmedBear
March 12, 2006, 09:23 PM
Top 2%? Oh man, here's what could be a real bummer.

If you got into Mensa by the skin of your teeth, and the median IQ rose just by say 0.1, you'd be out on your smart ass.:p

boofus
March 12, 2006, 09:42 PM
I wouldn't worry too much about the median IQ going up. The average person knows more about American Idol and the Simpsons than the Bill of Rights, American History, Basic Math and the English language. Plus improvement in the public schooling system is no where to be seen on the horizon. :rolleyes:

Art Eatman
March 12, 2006, 10:59 PM
boofus, there is no correlation between ability to learn and the subject material which is learned. Nor with actual education in the schools, for that matter.

Many a very bright kid has been bored to tears with school, and wound up learning very little--which was already known to be a problem in the 1930s. Some things don't get better with age, do they?

Art

boofus
March 12, 2006, 11:07 PM
:neener:

DougCxx
March 12, 2006, 11:43 PM
If you got into Mensa by the skin of your teeth, and the median IQ rose just by say 0.1, you'd be out on your smart ass.
...Yea, then you'd be left standing outside the Mensa club on the sidewalk, holding a sign that says "will solve sudoku for food".....

I also agree her answer is wrong: the rationale of burgers and cigarettes is the same. Both may or may not be unhealthy, but everything presented for consumption isn't required to be healthy, nor are you required to live in a healthy manner. So the main issue is if the makers of these things had misrepresented the risks of consumption/use (-and yes, I know that years ago, they used to say right out that cigarettes were healthy to smoke--but in at least the last 3 decades, this has not been claimed).

As to the issue of firearms--the standard is the same for other products--the manufacturer is not liable for use unless (the gun) contains a defect that makes it unreasonably risky or functional.
~

Kamicosmos
March 12, 2006, 11:46 PM
...IQ is best regarded as a capability for learning.

Precisely, Art. An IQ score is like a gas tank in your car: Sure, your car has a 20 gallon tank. But that doesn't mean the tank actually has 20 gallons in it at any particular time.

Art Eatman
March 13, 2006, 12:09 PM
:)

IllHunter
March 13, 2006, 12:22 PM
Was it W.C.Fields or Groucho who said " I wouldn't belong to a club that would have me for a member" (Or some such)

71Commander
March 13, 2006, 12:34 PM
It was Groucho. I have the same attitude. My wife is a member of Mensa.


Originally Posted by ArmedBear
If you got into Mensa by the skin of your teeth, and the median IQ rose just by say 0.1, you'd be out on your smart ass.

There is no retesting proceedures in place. Once you're a member and your dues are current, you're always a member.

GunnySkox
March 13, 2006, 01:33 PM
Despite the miniscule "hey, you can use guns without hurting people!" line in that, did anyone else even bother to read the last sentence of her response? "Tobacco cannot [be used properly or without abuse]." What a crock of BS.

See? Smartest person in the world says you can't smoke a cigar to celebrate a special occasion or enjoy the occasional cigarette, or maybe puff a pipe to enjoy good tobacco without abusing it or doing something improper. What a gimpwit.

:rolleyes:

~GnSx
For the record, and in the interest of full disclosure, I hate the stench of cigarette smoke, and I loathe cigarette smokers.

"For any enjoyable activity, there is a greater and opposing political action group." ~GunnySkox's Third Law of Political Motion

RyanM
March 13, 2006, 02:13 PM
The distribution above appears to be non-skewed. This surprises me. Let's assume that for normal healthy individuals the distribution would be non-skewed.

By definitition, the IQ score is non-skewed.

If 100,000 really stupid people with IQs below 75 suddenly appeared, the IQ score would be adjusted and everyone would suddenly find themselves several points higher.

It's not an objective test, it's purely subjective.

71Commander
March 13, 2006, 05:16 PM
This cover's for you. It's a real cover, not photoshopped.:)

waterhouse
March 13, 2006, 05:26 PM
Despite the miniscule "hey, you can use guns without hurting people!" line in that, did anyone else even bother to read the last sentence of her response? "Tobacco cannot [be used properly or without abuse]." What a crock of BS.

I agree.

TennTucker's magazine made me go dig up a rubik's cube. I doubt my IQ is high enough for Mensa, but I can still solve a cube pretty quickly :D

Nathaniel Firethorn
March 13, 2006, 05:45 PM
See? Smartest person in the world says you can't smoke a cigar to celebrate a special occasion or enjoy the occasional cigarette, or maybe puff a pipe to enjoy good tobacco without abusing it or doing something improper. What a gimpwit.One of the many reasons why I am unimpressed with M v S. If she really exists and if she really writes those columns.

- NF

boofus
March 13, 2006, 08:26 PM
I can still solve a cube pretty quickly

I always thought that the IQ tests should have more spacial and picture pattern questions. Really all the standardized tests evaluate are math and language skills. They should have questions for puzzle solving, auditory skills and physical skills. Mozart was a prodigy with incredible musical ability and memory but I'd wager he would have flunked math and German bigtime.

If you can detail strip and reassemble a 1911 blindfolded, it should count for something. :D

Art Eatman
March 13, 2006, 09:44 PM
"If you can detail strip and reassemble a 1911 blindfolded, it should count for something."

Agreed.

Several of us in my high school ROTC class could even get it down to right at one minute, total time.

Except, of course, when some helpful soul would move one of the parts--which occasionally led to a demonstration of close quarters combat. :D

(Lordy! I hadn't thought about Colonel Orr and Colonel Parmalee in over fifty years!)

Art.

rhubarb
March 13, 2006, 10:12 PM
<satire>
I am a member of BORD. Our group has three stated purposes: to identify and foster human beauty for the benefit of humanity, to encourage research in the nature, characteristics and uses of good looks, and to promote stimulating social opportunities for its members. I got in by being voted Mr. Hayride 1984 at Booger Holler, Arkansas. Many of our members qualified by winning beauty pageants and such. In the case of an applicant who doesn't have such sterling credentials, there are exams of facial structure and body type that qualifies one as possessing the qualities of beauty necessary to be invited into our elite friendship. You will find that naturally handsome people are more inclined to be successful, less lonely, and more respected. You will also note that there are few left-handed people among our members. Bord, for you dummies out there, is Danish for table. We chose that as the title of our organization because we like to sit around the table and admire how beautiful we are.

You will be pleased to learn that most of our members, like those of Mensa, are members of our group for their own betterment and for the benefit and advancement of mankind. We rank and file members don't join to make ourselves feel like we are somehow better people than those hideously ugly trolls that aren't good enough for us.</satire>

I'm purty smort. I've seen enough highly intelligent fry cooks, cowpokes, roughnecks, bums, dopers, drunks, inmates, and mental patients though to convince me that it don't mean nothing to be smart. It don't give a person nor a person's opinion any more weight with me. So if Marybeth usted Savage says that something should be just so, should I agree with her just cause she's real smart?

brickeyee
March 14, 2006, 09:37 PM
Gee Beerslurpy, sounds like you had problems. Sorry.
Seems you want to discredit the tests without a while lot of backing.

"There are specialized tests you can take for the higher levels of intelligence, but the takers are obviously self-selected and they prep for the tests beforehand."

Why do you believe the takers are self selected?
You asked them about studying beforehand?
Yes, it is hard to measure the higher numbers accurately. Time to completion becomes a portion of the measurement. Regression analysis allows this to be extended to higher IQs. As I stated the error limits increase, but the results are still valid.
Well deisgned tests are remarkably accurate even across social and language barriers.

Calumus
March 14, 2006, 10:44 PM
First thing, TennTucker, you might want to edit your home address off your mailing label just for privacy's sake :) Second as for more intelligent kids being bored in school, I'll agree with that. During all my education through the end of 12th grade I only had two teachers that actually made an attempt to get me to stop coasting and make an effort. Those are the two I'll remember as long as I live because firstly, they were the only two "A's" I got in highschool, and second, they were the only two who did what I thought a teacher should do. Push. I always coasted in every other class and just got what I needed to get by, for the most part I would read the entire texts when we first got them and then just day dream through the rest of the semester, and this was at a higher end private school of about 350 students and a 300 person waiting list every year. I can't imagine what it would have been like at the public school in my town which is one of the lowest rated suburban schools in Jersey. All I can say is thank God for the S.A.T.'s they were the only reason I got into every school I applied to. As far as "abusing" tobacco, I think abuse is an over used word. Any time you are doing something that's not good for you, you are abusing. I went out and got drunk last night. Did I abuse the keg of Guiness? (well yeah, actually a little bit :) ) no, I used the stout in the way its meant to be used. I drink it, it makes me feel warm and fuzzy. Mission accomplished. Do I abuse Camel Wides every day? No, actually they are meant to be set aflame and inhaled from. Not abuse. Once again you have a case of people dumbing down a language for their own anti point of view. Armed Bear, as far as smoking effecting your mensa level IQ, you'll probably score better in a timed test if you use nicotine while you're taking it. Nicotine coats the synapses in your brain and is actually a more efficient conducter than the natural coating, which is why people feel a little dim-witted for a bit when they first stop smoking or when they haven't hade a butt in a while.. Anyway, I'm done my little rant. Cheers,
Shawn

Carl N. Brown
March 16, 2006, 05:22 PM
Use food, alcohol or guns as intended by the manufacturer (and
commonsense): no harm.

Use tobacco as intended by the manufacturer: health damage.

Yes, I speak as a reformed smoker. I too was once a bondage
slave of the demon weed Nick-o-tine but I casr off the chains
of the demon that bound me, to breath clean air as God and
Mother Nature intended. Ooops, Bump! :cuss: darn, skipped
off my soap box.

Brad Johnson
March 16, 2006, 05:40 PM
I have to sigh every time I hear someone, anyone, get on the "big tobacco must pay" bandwagon.

-It's a legal product
-Use is voluntary
-Society as a whole has known the health effects of tobacco use for well over a century

Those who voluntarily use this legal product even knowing what the negative health effects are should be able to sue the manufacturer why?

Brad

Carl N. Brown
March 16, 2006, 05:59 PM
When I smoked, I already knew from my granma Bessy it was not
good for my lungs, but I did so anyway, knowing that there were
risks. If I suffer for those risks, I took them on my own recognisance
and I would feel like a real idiot if I sued Big Tobacco, Little Tobacco
or Medium sized Tobacco FOR WHAT I DID TO MYSELF.

AND THE MONEY EXTORTED BY POLITICIANS AND LAWYERS HAS GONE
TO FINANCE PET PROJECTS OF THE POLITICIANS AND TO LINE THE
POCKETS OF THE LAWYERS, NOT TO HELP THE HEALTH PROBLEMS OF
SMOKERS and my keyboard just ran out of caps. . . .

Cosmoline
March 16, 2006, 06:18 PM
Tobacco CAN be used properly and without abuse.

I'm going to smoke a bowl of Frog Morton on the Town in honor of MENSA and all the completely stupid, screwed up genius IQ's I've known over the years.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b52/Gussick/frog.jpg

Carl N. Brown
March 17, 2006, 02:44 PM
As a completely stupid, screwed up genius card carrying Mensa
member, remeber me. Your advice on how to work the Mosin Nagant
safety was right on, thanks, I was doing it wrong.

I wonder, come to think of it, considering the relaxation and stress
relief traditionally associated with smoking, if it is possible that
smoking can benefit some people more than it may harm them?

Again, it comes down to individual choice and accepting responsibility
for that choice.

Sleeping Dog
March 17, 2006, 05:26 PM
I have to sigh every time I hear someone, anyone, get on the "big tobacco must pay" bandwagon.
Agreed. Big Tobacco didn't make me smoke, it was my dumb choice. I feel smarter now that I quit.

Where are these Mensa clubhouses? Do they have pool tables? Bars? I bet they don't even have ashtrays. Do Mensa members get discounts on stuff? What's the purpose?

Regards.

boofus
March 17, 2006, 05:31 PM
You really don't get anything for membership, except a magazine with some neat articles and puzzles. Or you can order their research materials on education and whatnot, pretty dry read.

There are also Special Interest Groups for everything from basketry to heavy metal music to religion to 2nd amendment.

Art Eatman
March 17, 2006, 05:46 PM
Sleeping Dog, just think of it as a social group that's spread out all over the country and the world. On average, the entertainment is more cerebral than physical. Except maybe the booze at the parties for those who like booze. :)

The thing to remember about someone like Ms dos Savant is that she can learn a lot, and quickly; she can also analyze things quickly and--I'd bet--accurately. But nobody's perfect. Nobody. Not even with a research staff. :)

And let's don't even go into the way people can let their emotions control their reasoning. We see enough of that here in L&P. :D

Art

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