spiff completes pucker factor 101, -or- the closest i came to drawing my gun


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spacemanspiff
April 17, 2003, 01:47 PM
so i'm at a church meeting last night, commemorating the last supper. theres a lot more people than usual at this service, as we commemorate it once a year, instead of weekly as some other churches do.

i had started out by trying to figure out an easy way to carry while wearing a tucked in button down and no real cover garment other than a columbia jacket. i opted to carry the holstered pistol in a coat pocket, i dont want to upset anyone by having a IWB bulging underneath my tucked in shirt. (my Steyr has limited options of holsters).

a few minutes before the service started, i heard over the noise of 200+ people talking someone yell the "eff" word. i figured it must have been my imagination, until a couple seconds later i hear someone yelling over the crowd, swearing up a storm. i stand up and turn around and see this guy who is about my age that i met at least ten years ago, but havent seen him around church for a long time. he is stomping around, through the crowd, not pushing his way through really, but he is upset at something. he makes his way all the way around the entire room, yelling about "You threaten MY life, you haters!" with all kinds of obscenities mixed in as well. he isn't really saying it to anyone in particular though. his gaze goes over people, but he is looking right through them. i'm guessing he is tweaking on some sort of drugs and as he makes his way up to the front where my family and i are sitting, i unzip my jacket pocket and put my hand on my weapon. i know no one else is armed, and by this time the room has gone silent and all you hear (beside the heart pounding in your chest) is his stomping feet and his yelling.
i've now moved (instinctively) between him and my family and he walks up and stops in front of me. like i said, hes looking right through people, and in that split second my mind is racing.
***no weapon is visible, is he a threat?***
***whats under his sweatshirt?***
***if he is on drugs what will it take to stop him?***
***i cant afford to miss at this range in this size of a crowd***

he walks a few feet past me and three other men have taken positions around him. his mother has caught up to him and wraps her arms around him and starts pushing him towards the door.

i then realize my jaw is clenched tight and is beginning to cramp. my mouth is bone dry. my lower back is aching, as it always does when i'm in a high stress situation. i look behind me and my neices are really shaken up.
i lean over and tell one of them "this is why i carry a gun. you never know when someone is going to flip out like that and endanger the safety of others."

30 minutes later i was still fighting off the pucker factor. i almost didnt carry last night, but now i know better. and i am shopping for a new holster that is tuckable.

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Dave R
April 17, 2003, 01:50 PM
Whew! Scary story. Sounds like you performed well, though. Congrats on staying cool.

I'll have to remember this next time someone starts a "should you carry is Church" thread.

Correia
April 17, 2003, 01:52 PM
Spiff, that is some scary stuff.

Take a look at a good quality bellyband like a Be Secure. You can wear them around you waist and tuck them in, plus because they are elastic they will hold multiple sizes of guns. Cinch you belt up tight and you are good to go.

Mike Irwin
April 17, 2003, 01:59 PM
Sounds like a possible case of mental illness. Pity.

Glad that it turned out OK.

Bonker
April 17, 2003, 02:07 PM
I've had to draw my handgun once and almost had to on another occasion. There's nothing more frightening.

Isn't it strange that the one with the gun is often the one who is most fearful?

Khornet
April 17, 2003, 02:07 PM
well done.

As for IWB holsters, I just got one for my G22, a Texas Heritage from Tucker. I can carry a full-sized auto under just a shirt. Friends who know I carry are surprised when I stand up and say, "OK, where's the gun?"

After a week of wearing it, my wife asked what that black clip on my belt was. If it can fool her, it should work on the ususpecting blissninnies.

Only drawback I can think of is that you need to get that shirttail out of the way quickly, but I think a little practice will fix that. I can put my hands in my pockets, squat down, reach overhead, sit in a chair with no problem while wearing the holster. I'll bet it's even easier with a compact auto.

Dave P
April 17, 2003, 02:43 PM
Good job Spiff, you kept your family from harm, and stood up to the threat.

Good thing you weren't in one of those "victim disarmament (gun free) zones".

Keep up the good work!

Soap
April 17, 2003, 02:47 PM
Good reaction! Glad everything worked out okay.

dongun
April 17, 2003, 02:48 PM
Well done. I figure if you're not scared, you don't have proper respect for the situation. You handled it admirably - we can all take a lesson.

QuarterBoreGunner
April 17, 2003, 02:51 PM
Good job on keeping a cool head.

Trust me, the pucker factor goes away... but never 100%; once you've been in that situation there's always a little pucker left.

Again, good job.

SoDFW Jason
April 17, 2003, 03:08 PM
Khornet- I'll give you a STRONG second on the Tucker motion

I have an "Answer" and it tucks nicely.

Spiff- Glad you got out of it unscathed bud, I'll bet Tonerguy could get you a nice Tucker rig for that Steyr.

spacemanspiff
April 17, 2003, 03:08 PM
i've had several debates with my family on whether or not carrying while at church is a good idea. they've given me all kinds of research material that is supposed to "prove" that 'god wants us to respond to violence with non-violence', but it must be open to interpretation, cause when i read it, and it said "first try to talk your way out of being a victim, then run if possible, if that fails *do what is necessary to protect yourself*."

i interpret that last part the same way the rest of you here do: last resort is deadly force when lives are at stake. but to keep my family satiated, i wont admit to carrying in church. sure, i'm lying to them, but i cant change their minds on this, or at least i havent been able to yet.
the question i posed to my mother last night was "If everyone is disarmed, defenseless, what are we supposed to do when attacked? Become a victim? fight them with bare hands? even if they have a weapon and an advantage because of having such?"
she wouldnt give me an answer so i told her to think about it. I have no qualms about dying for a good cause, or laying my life down because of my beliefs. but its not my intention to die because someone is tweaking out on drugs or is off their medications that are supposed to keep them mentally stable.

i wont be a martyr for a stupid reason, nor will i let others be harmed because they CHOOSE to be unprepared.

as soon as i run a couple hundred rounds without flaws or malfunctions through my new Kimber TLE, that will replace the Steyr for everyday carry. I'll have many more options to carry a 1911 than the steyr.

Soap
April 17, 2003, 03:21 PM
So the Great Flood wasn't violent? Or Sodom and Gomorrah? As the Bible shows, there comes a breaking point where there is no other option other than violence, even with God.

spacemanspiff
April 17, 2003, 03:41 PM
i can swallow the fact that many people are comfortable being disarmed, and would never respond to violent acts done to them or others with violence. thats up to them, their conscience.

and aside from the "scriptual" evidence many use to advocate being armed (which i agree with, but we need some newer arguments), i've taken a slightly different angle.

now i wasnt intending this to turn into a biblethumping pistolpacking fire and brimstone thread, i just wanted to add some weight to the notion that no where is 100% safe.

whether or not a person reads/believes the bible, it does give an account where God chose those who were tactically sound in mind to engage in battle. Gideon was surrounded by the Midianites, Amalekites, and children of the east, an exact number isnt given for all of them, but it mentions that one of those groups numbered 135,000 soldiers. its a safe assumption that Gideon was facing well over 200,000 enemy combatants.

his ranks numbered 32,000, but God wanted to prove his superiorty, so he gave Gideon an even greater disadvantage: he sent home all who were afraid to go into battle, 10,000 went home.
still wasnt enough. God had Gideon direct his men to drink from the river. Those who bent down and drank directly from the river were sent home. those who cupped the water in their hand and drew it up to their mouths stayed, those who were vigilant enough to keep an eye on their surroundings and be aware of their situation stayed to fight.

rennaissancemann
April 17, 2003, 03:48 PM
You kept your cool, kept thinking, and reacted appropriately. Good luck on your search for leather.


Respectfully,

Ebbtide
April 17, 2003, 03:57 PM
Sounds like mental problems.

Even at church, the place you should feel most safe. What a shame.

Pendragon
April 17, 2003, 04:07 PM
I think the reason an armed person may be most scared is that they have already mentally "gone down the road" and have an understanding of how bad something can get.

When you are unarmed in a sitch like that, you really do not want to think it is that bad - or how bad it can be.

The armed man does not have the luxury of self delusion.

Well played spiff.

bigjim
April 17, 2003, 04:26 PM
ehenz said:Sounds like mental problems. Even at church, the place you should feel most safe. What a shame.

Why do you think that? Look at history. Being around people with intense religious beliefs is a good way to end up dead.

I would say being armed in church is a good idea.

QuarterBoreGunner
April 17, 2003, 04:45 PM
Being around people with intense religious beliefs is a good way to end up dead

uh oh.

Flame suit on.

moa
April 17, 2003, 04:52 PM
Only problem I see is if the wacko attacked you or somebody else, and he did not have a weapon, and you shot him, you might get into some serious trouble for excessive use of force.

Good thing you did not brandish the firearm, but were ready. Those types of situations can be legally murky.

igor
April 17, 2003, 04:55 PM
Gandhi's thoughts on responding to violence tend to sink in pretty well with us Christians too. Have you tried that?

Good luck discussing it and a big hand for not losing your head. It must have been a quick situation.

Standing Wolf
April 17, 2003, 06:12 PM
i lean over and tell one of them "this is why i carry a gun. you never know when someone is going to flip out like that and endanger the safety of others."

Yup—and I'd say you handled the situation well, too.

zxc
April 17, 2003, 06:24 PM
Cool-didnt have to draw the smorgaslazergun and turn him into a burgzz!!! good for ya. id be praying hard first..now you be back to Calvin!!

Hobbes

hutch24
April 17, 2003, 06:41 PM
You did good man. Stay safe, carry always. :cool:

cool45auto
April 17, 2003, 07:03 PM
Good job, Spiff.

Ringer
April 17, 2003, 07:09 PM
Good thing you weren't in one of those "victim disarmament (gun free) zones".

Copied from the Michigan State Police website Pistol Free Area section on CCW "Any property or facility owned or operated by a church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship, unless the presiding official allows concealed weapons" :rolleyes:

That could be an interesting conversation with the Minister as I doubt they post a sign saying "Concealed Weapons Allowed". Is this not common across other States?

spacemanspiff
April 17, 2003, 07:16 PM
my state only prohibits the usual areas (fed property) and any public or private property that has posted "no firearms".

its never been an issue up here, and our lawmakers have been consistant with expanding concealed carry laws rather than restricting them. (knock on wood-i better not have just jinxed it).

Stevie-Ray
April 17, 2003, 07:46 PM
Nice job, Spiff. I also recommend the belly band. I don't know about the other one mentioned, but I have a DeSantis, and love it. Never a more comfortable carry for me. Inexpensive also.

http://www.holster.com/gunny-sacks--belly-bands--gun-caddies.html

blackhawk2000
April 17, 2003, 10:15 PM
You did good. Glad everything worked out for the best.


I would consider a cover garment for a regular holster IWB or OWB whatever you prefer. That way you can access it easier without drawing undue attention to yourself. For example, if you use a belly band type rig, you need to untuck, then shove your hand down your pants. That looks kind of odd, as opposed to keeping your hand at your side, for a quick sweep of cover garment, then draw. I actually think you had a pretty ideal situation with your hand in your pocket on the gun.

ahadams
April 17, 2003, 11:20 PM
you done good Spiff! and isn't it amazing how that last 30 seconds seems to take so long? anyway what Blackhawk said and you may have to check around the net but I've got several 'deep cover' type holsters that resemble a large ace bandage with a holster and spare mag slot built in. under a shirt, even with a vest they're usually very hard to spot.

Flashpoint
April 18, 2003, 12:36 AM
Spiff,
I have a feeling that events like the one you experienced are going to become common place in the church with in the decade. Unfortunatly my state doesn't allow handguns in churchs which make little sense to me. The people who attend a given church do not going thier with the intention of harming others. Those who go to a church with that intention are not going to be stoped by a law. So where does that leave the law abiding citizen, between a rock and a hard place. I applaude you for your preparedness and calm during the situation. As for the leather, here's a pick of my Steyr and Highnoon Hidden Ally tuckable. The only thing noticable is the clip and I think I'm going to paint it blue so it doesn't stand out as bad. If I was to take a pole I'd probably fing out that no one notices anyway, but it would make me feel better. I't was about $40 after shipping and is of good quality.
http://image1ex.villagephotos.com/pubimage.asp?id_=2105445
http//highnoonholsters.com (http://)
I can't seem to get the link to work, but copy and past will get you there.

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