Camouflage

[DontBurnMyFlag]

Hey everyone,

I have been browsing Army/Navy Stores and gun shows for years in search of the best camouflage. So far my favorites are the German Flecktarn (SP?) and German patterns of WWII. So, in your opinion, what is the best camouflage? What is the worst? I feel this has a place in S&T because there may be a time in which camo is neccessary. Hunting, military use, training, camping, paintball etc.

Flecktarn

http://www.airsoft.cz/Images/2005/Flecktarn+detail.jpg

German World War II

http://www.tridentmilitary.com/New-Photos4/germanbgs.jpg

[cosine]

You really can't ask what is the one best camouflage pattern because different camo will be needed in different environments and in different uses.

[1911Ron]

The best camo pattern is the one that match's your area, look around at the colors and light patterns and decide from there. A desert camo won't work in the green woods and vice-versa.

[Thin Black Line]

The new ACU is a good all purpose pattern, but the uniforms are a bit less
durable than in the past.

I have both the ger fleck and old ww2 pattern and both are for very specific
environments, most suitable for pine forests in Bavaria. The ww2 pattern
also works well in in midwestern scrubby areas and marshes from late Fall
thru early Spring before things get green.

[ArmedBear]

These guys have tried to come up with versatile camouflage patterns. I think they work pretty well in the far Southwest, which is a pretty challenging place for camo. My county alone has examples of 13 of the 17 different ecosystem types in the world, and I have literally hiked from a forest with snow descending on evergreens into a true desert with the sun shining down on it, in a couple hundred yards. The variety of microclimates, soil and vegitation makes camoflage like MOBU go from highly effective to worse than useless in a very short distance.

http://www.naturalgear.com/

Their marketing spiel does give some good insight into the problems and thinking behind camo, whether or not you agree with their solutions.

http://www.naturalgear.com/science.asp?Section=Science

[DontBurnMyFlag]

Sorry, I forgot to add that part. Of course there are hundreds of different camo patterns for different environments. To Elaborate, what is the best winter camo? All white, or white with black, or white black gray etc?

Is US Woodland BDU better than the Marine DigiCam? etc

Sorry, I should have elaborated.

Also, the ACU, from what Ive heard is inneffective and was rushed into the lines too quickly. All my friends say that if the color doesnt give you away, the velcro straps all over the uniform will! Ive played paintball in Eastern US forest environments with people who were using ACU pattern camo, they stuck out like sore thumbs. My one friend who is a Major, I think, stood up to demonstrate the ability ACU has to blend in with almost any surroundings etc, he did a few motions etc, it was really weird to see. :D But needless to say, he doesnt like it much either.

[ArmedBear]

Take a look at the site I posted. They have a good Winter camo. Judge for yourself from the pictures.

Wintertime deciduous forests (more vertical dark lines against white) look WAY different from evergreen forests (green, brown, black, and white blotches).

I don't think that military camo is necessarily the best place to start, for Winter in the Northeast.

[gremlin_bros]

best cammo in my openion is make a gillie suit you can change it is you need and it works anyplace

[ezypikns]

but then when deer hunting you have to put on hunter orange. Deer are color blind anyway. The important thing is just to break up your outline. The orange I usually wear is the break-up variety.

[sacp81170a]

Elements of visual camouflage in rough order of importance: movement, shine, shape, sillhouette, color, shadow, spacing. As long as movement is careful, it don't shine, you break up the shape and don't sillhouette yourself on the horizon, color comes way down the list in things that draw the eye as long as it's not completely out of place. Using natural vegetation from the area that you're in is one of the the best ways to camouflage yourself. If the color of your clothing doesn't stand out too much, creative and effective use of vegetation and terrain are far more important than what pattern of camouflage clothing you're wearing.

Old deer hunter's trick: stand up and back into a medium sized cedar tree and you will virtually disappear, even if you're wearing blaze orange. You'll still be able to see out. You've covered movement, shine, shape, sillhouette color and shadow in one fell swoop.

Old duck hunter's trick: stand very close to a tree and you will be almost invisible to the ducks while still having a fairly wide field of fire. You've covered movement, shape, and sillhouette with the tree, shine and color with your camouflage clothing and equipment.

Just my two cent's worth.

Definitions:

Movement - self explanatory. Movement draws the eye very quickly.
Shine - anything can shine, including skin, eyeglasses, and rifle scopes, as well as any worn metal parts. Flashlights and cigarettes fall in this category, too.
Shape - the human torso, head, or the nice straight line of a rifle barrel all stand out.
Silhouette - allowing yourself to be highlighted against the sky. Also known as the military crest of a hill.
Color - self explanatory. As long as it ain't chartreuse or blaze orange, most dull colors look remarkably the same at all but short distances.
Shadow - if you're standing behind something but I can still see your shadow, I know somebody or something is there.
Spacing - less obvious, but humans often do things in nice, even patterns. If it ain't random, it ain't natural. An example would be a line of well camouflaged fighting positions spaced evenly across the terrain. Even if you can't tell exactly what they are, the even spacing is a giveaway that they're not natural.

Haven't talked about noise discipline or smells at all yet. :D

[sasKuach]

What about just plain olive drab? I have a pair of sweatpants that are this dirty, almost unidentifiable color and they blend very well into the undergrowth with dried leaves, dried grass, sticks, anything. I'm wondering if this is really the case (if this color is known to work well) or if it's just an illusion I get when looking down at them.

Rob

[Duramaximum]

I have a friend in the Marines who watched a simple demonstration of digital camo. He said the Sergant layed on the ground in the bushes and although he knew he was right there, he couldn't see him. It was kind of mind boggling, I guess. The are ugly but they work.

[MrTwigg]

My cloak of invisibility. :neener:

Ok seriously, others have said it so match your terrain, and watch your movement, shine, shape, sillhouette, color, shadow and don't eat burritos for breakfast (Noise & smells. :D )

make a gillie suit

What he said. :D

We had Marines as OpFor when we went on tatical exercises when I was in the service. It's scary how close they can get without being noticed.

I'm 6'7" and 300 lb. That's too big to be sneaky so I just sit and hide.

[doc jake]

At about 25 yds most camouflage cloths blob into one base colour anyway. That aside, i do like the post war brown / green stuff issued to the british marines.

[Gun_nut]

id say the new marine digital camo ( MARPAT ) is splendid for all forest types and woodland types enviorments :) take a look on google for MARPAT

[Mannlicher]

Blue jeans and a plaid shirt, or a Carhart jacket seem to work well for me. I have never been convinced that the deer care much one way or the other.

[ball3006]

is too dark. Take a shirt and hang it on some brush and step back about 20 yards or so and look at it. The idea is to break up your silouette. The new army digital camo looks great. The marine digital is too dark.....chris3

Edit to add: I always felt that if you took the so called urban camo, the white, lt grey, dk grey, pattern and replaced the white with a tan, you would have a good camo.....chris3

[mp510]

Every pattern has it's ultimate enviroment. Obviously, choclate chip or 3 color desert would be of little use in a dark-colored high vegetation area, and woodland would not help with concealment much in a light colored enviroment.
I like flexas well, and it seems as though there is a lot of similarities between that and the new digital woodland. I also have a thing for tigerstripe and British DPM.

I found Jeff Cooper's perspectivevery interesting. He believes that you don't really need any special pattern (just use OD), since if your enemies are close enough to see the pattern, they are close enough to see and kill you. He is also opposed to camoflauging ones skin as well.

['Card]

Generally speaking, anywhere east of the Mississippi, the more brown and grey that your camo pattern has in it, the better it will be.

Depending on the season, trees change color, and bushes change color, but the underlying forest floor is always a bed of leaves with spots of bare earth. Even in winter, there are very few areas that keep a solid snow cover for the majority of the time, and even when there's snow on the ground, there are almost always bare spots of brown, and the grey of tree trunks that are visible.

Green can be bad or good depending on the types of trees and the season. Black isn't too bad, but there are very few things in the forest that are truly black. White is good when there's snow on the ground, but disastrous when there's no snow. Browns and greys are virtually always present, and minor differences in shades will be OK because tree trunks and a bed of leaves differ in shade as well.

Military camo is OK, but even the military has acknowledged that most civilian hunting-based patterns are generally better. The reason the military doesn't adopt them is financial. If you ever get a chance to look at the specs for military camo, you'll see that one of the limitations is that they will only accept a four-color printing/dyeing process, because when you get more than 4 colors involved, it's gets much more expensive. That's a restriction that doesn't appy to civilian camo, which is why it generally works better with more shading and depth.

Personally, I've found that Realtree Hardwoods® and Realtree Advantage Classic® work very well in a wide variety of environments, but my personal favorite for 4-season hunting is Mossy Oak Break-Up®.

http://www.mossyoak.com/images/patterns/breakup/1.jpg

[perpster]

sacp81170a said:

"Old deer hunter's trick: stand up and back into a medium sized cedar tree and you will virtually disappear, even if you're wearing blaze orange. You'll still be able to see out. You've covered movement, shine, shape, sillhouette color and shadow in one fell swoop.

Old duck hunter's trick: stand very close to a tree and you will be almost invisible to the ducks while still having a fairly wide field of fire. You've covered movement, shape, and sillhouette with the tree, shine and color with your camouflage clothing and equipment."

Not to mention giving yourself nearly 180 degrees of ballistic cover.

[El Tejon]

Coat and tie and a clean car. I haven't been pulled over in years.:D

[ArmedBear]

Personally, I've found that Realtree Hardwoods® and Realtree Advantage Classic® work very well in a wide variety of environments, but my personal favorite for 4-season hunting is Mossy Oak Break-Up®.

In much of the West, MOBU might as well be chartreuse, or at least black. I have an upland belt/pouch set in the stuff. I'm not sure why they made it MOBU when a nice plain khaki would be classier looking and better camo in 99% of upland situations. It's a good belt otherwise with lots of cool storage, which is why I got it.

Blue jeans and a plaid shirt

AFAIK plaid was originally designed to be camo, woven rather than printed. Since the Scots didn't starve to death, it probably works.:)

[NMshooter]

Khaki/tan works wonderfully in a wide variety of environments.

Even in the forest.

Probably why deer are light brown.

Old sun faded woodland camo works pretty well too.

Movement and shape are easier to spot than any particular color or pattern.

[mp510]

That could be part of the logic behind the new ACU camo that has been introduced. I heard that it's supposed to be all purpose, right?

[remington79]

I like Advantage Timber myself. I have even used to with great success in pine forests despite the fact that the pattern is geared more towards hardwoods.

[Gun_nut]

this canadian cadpat works good in green forests http://www.hyperstealth.com/camo/faq/9007.jpg

[Creeping Incrementalism]

Also, the ACU, from what Ive heard is inneffective and was rushed into the lines too quickly. All my friends say that if the color doesnt give you away, the velcro straps all over the uniform will! Ive played paintball in Eastern US forest environments with people who were using ACU pattern camo, they stuck out like sore thumbs. My one friend who is a Major, I think, stood up to demonstrate the ability ACU has to blend in with almost any surroundings etc, he did a few motions etc, it was really weird to see. But needless to say, he doesnt like it much either.
Arpat is perfect for the Mojave Desert, which has a sand base with a fair amount of skinny green brush growing. It's also good for most of California in the summertime, which has a lot of dead grass and oak/fir/pine trees. But I'd say it's too green for Iraq/Afghanistan and too khaki for forests, or California in the winter, when the grass is green. The, ahem, "hook and loop fastener" isn't just noisy, but is annoying as hell. Someone should just make ACUs with buttons.

From what I've heard in interviews, the people who designed the recent military camo did say civillian is better, but only when used in particular environments, and the military's need was for something more general purpose. I haven't heard anything about more than 4-colors being too expensive.

I'd say Flektarn is just like digital camo, except with splotches instead of squares. But I never liked the bright orange color in Flektarn.

['Card]

That could be part of the logic behind the new ACU camo that has been introduced. I heard that it's supposed to be all purpose, right?
Believe it or not, the reason for that 'digitized' look on the new military camo is because they're trying to eliminate the hard, distinct lines between two different shades that other camo schemes (like woodland) have. From a distance, they say that one color fades into another gradually, and that if you have those hard lines in there between colors, then from a distance it just blocks up into distinct separate shapes. By pixelating the edges, the ACU patterns create a gradual visual shift from one color block to another.

As far as the Army grey ACU is concerned, I'm a little skeptical about that, but I've got some friends who say it really works well. Personally I think the Marine version, which is more of a green, looks a little better.

[Arkie]

Just get you some old clothes and a can of spray glue. Spray clothes and roll around on the ground. TA DA!!! Instant Cameo... :)

[cbsbyte]

First off everyone should know thea distiction between the ACU(Army Combat Uniform), which is the new type of uniform, ARpat (Army pattern) is the new camoflage scheme. ARpat is a digital camoflage scheme that has gone through a few changes within the last three years since it inception. Originaly the first issue of the Arpat had three different shades of gray, from near white to darker shadow gray. This did not work in most enviroments. Now the most recent camoflage colors have morphed into different shades of Gray-green and a third color of a type of desert sand . All three version are in current use by the Army.

PS: I noticed when looking for the correct pics on the net that there are alot of different pics of Chinese made knockoffs of ACUs that use the wrong colors.

Orginial Version.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/images/acu-pic08.jpg

Newer Version.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/images/acu-pic01.jpg

Pic of samples that show Arpat color changes from the orginial light gray version.

http://pic18.picturetrail.com/VOL882/3498364/7192548/100732076.jpg

[stevelyn]

ASAT http://www.asatcamo.comis probably the best out there, but suffers from lack of marketing and notoriety.

Predator would be second on my list of effective camo, but like ASAT marketing wasn't pushed, but it is available from Cabela's.

Natural Gear looks pretty good and seems to be part of the trend to get away from darker colored patterns. A couple of examples of this trend would be the Prairie Ghost and River Ghost (also available from Cabela's) patterns made specifically for western environments.

I also like the German (NATO) milsurp snow pattern for snow environments. It's white with a few widely space splotches that loosely resembles a pine bough.



Edited to correct url.

[LAK]

No shiny reflective cloth, buttons, watches etc. Be careful how you use optical gear such as binoculars. Sometimes wrapping a gun in some cloth or mesh might help eliminate the reflective glare of polished blue or the "white" tone of stainless steel.

Try and keep the sun behind you and avoid being silhouetted or highlighted on ridges, slopes, etc.

No objects in the pockets or hanging that may jingle, clatter or otherwise make noise. Sling swivels can do this for example.

Wear a hat shading the face; cover the hands.

Remain still as far as possible; move the eyes as opposed to the head when possible. Move very slowly when possible. The effect of movement on your visibility to game compounds with increased speed of movement.

Watch where you step and what you step on; although sometimes tramping along and perhaps sounding like another hoofed animal will be better than quiet drawn out creaks and crackles that sound like a stalk is in progress.

Avoid smoking if you can stand it - as well as perfumed soaps, deodorants etc. Although the average game animal's sense of smell is keen enough that if you get upwind of them they will have you marked anyway. Wind often falls down hillsides in the evening and rises in the mornings when the air is heated by the sun. Mornings air is often more settled, windier in the afternoons.

These are all the best camo.

And lastly; wear whitetail gray-brown. It can be very hard to see just about anywhere. If it is not moving.
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[Gun_nut]

I was wearing a MARPAT (Marine Pattern) Camo in wood land while i was paint balling.....

I was in a prone positin on a deer trail paint balling, I painted my gun camo and i was prone with most of my body sticking out by a tree. I saw two enemy come up and as soon as they got about 10-15 feet away i opened up:evil: ...(if i opened up sooner i woulda hit the braches by a tree in front of me and woulda missed) Well after i shot this little kid who was about 11-12 years old had a full automatic paintball gun and opened up on them too...

The MARPAT woodland i think is a perfect camo for any woodland enviorment:evil: And The pattern i hear it distrupts the eyes so the eyes are not sure what they are seeing:evil:

[crofrog]

multicam

http://www.multicampattern.com/

[dfaugh]

Can be made to match any season/environment, and will break up any definable outline...I have one in various shade of green and brown, and if I go hide in the woods in summer/fall, you'll walk right past me. Working on winter version, with white/some grey/some brown/ and a little black.

[Sergeant Sabre]

The Marine Corps spent millions of dollars developing MARPAT. They did it right. It works.

That first version of the Army pattern that was posted looks like it would work well in a snowy environment, but nowhere else. Probably a good move the change it.

I havn't seen the ARPAT in person, but I have trouble buying into the philosopy of "one pattern for every environment". Shouldn't one wear green in the woods and brown in the desert? I dunno. Maybe it does work...

When I'm hunting I wear Advantage MAX4 everywhere. It looks like a wetland pattern, with pictures of reeds and cat-tails. It seems to work well wherever, though.

[remington79]

Thfe thing about Marpat is that they did it right. I have seen Marpat woodland used from summer to fall with great affect. The corps did it right by realizing that woodland and desert need two differant patterns. The desert Marpat is much better than the 3 color desert. The Army was trying to go cheap by creating one pattern for everywhere. As we can see its not going to cut it. I've seen the ACUs in desert and woodland environments. It is too loght for the woods and too dark for the desert. If I was in the Army I would actually switch to the Corp because of how bad the new Army pattern is.

[Gun_nut]

Here is a picture with me and my friend in different types of camo :) 37137

[Drav]

I like the new Mossy Oak Break-Up a lot.

[Correia]

I sell military issue ACUs. (My store is a block north of Utah NG headquarters).

The new ACU works really really good in Utah. :) High desert sage environment, you damn near disapear. Utah is similar to Afghanistan terrain wise.

We've got lots of guys who deploy to Euro style forest areas, and also to SE Asian jungles. They say that the ACU is okay, but is too light because the ground cover in areas like that is much darker. These guys want a darker version.

I've got conflicting feedback from people who've gone to Iraq. Some have liked the ACU, others have not. Contrary to popular belief, Iraq actually is a big place with different kinds of terrain, so I suppose it depends on where you are at more than anything.

The pattern also works really well against night vision. The pixel pattern just melts into the background.

The one thing that the new uniform really shines at is when it is used with body armor. The collar is really superior for that over the BDU. Everybody seems to like that better. And just hanging them up to dry is another popular thing.

[Lucky]

I say multicam is cool, too.

About a new camo technology, I don't remember the terminology, but people have put 2 ideas together. 1) when you are in the forest, and you see a leaf that is green, it's because green light is reflected off the leaf, just like if it were a green light-bulb. 2) if you hold a white piece of paper next to a green light-bulb, it will look green.

So by using subdued tones, your clothing colours will be illuminated by the colours of the terrain surrounding you, and fit in.

[Gun_nut]

:D Multi cam is exelcent but i think its rather expensive...:( but CADPAT isint to shabby for green forest's

[LAK]

sasKuachWhat about just plain olive drab? I have a pair of sweatpants that are this dirty, almost unidentifiable color and they blend very well into the undergrowth with dried leaves, dried grass, sticks, anything. I'm wondering if this is really the case (if this color is known to work well) or if it's just an illusion I get when looking down at them
This can work very well. I think one key relating directly to clothing and appearance often not understood is tone.

I see a great many photos now and then of folk wearing various camo that are of the wrong tone for their chosen hunting area or type of hunting.

If you are going to be in a hide or in the deep shade of trees, a generally darker tone will work. But wear the same dark tones in drier brush or grassy area and it stands out strongly.

A lighter neutral tone generally works in shade because everything else in the same shade is likely of a similar light to mid neutral tone.

A good way to judge is to take black and white photos of objects covered in your camo in your hunting environment. In black and white, any confusing influences of color are eliminated and it is plain to see whether it is going to blend or stand out. Reds for instance can be surprizingly very light in tone.

The old olive drab fatigues, like all other cotton uniform garbs vary between rather dark when new, and very light when well worn and faded out. So you should probably take them out and view them from various distances in your particular hunting spots.

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[Sleuth]

I live in the Mountains of Arizona at 6500 ft. A friend who is in the USMC came for a visit, with the desert MARPAT. With the dry brown grasses and green cedar trees, he could disappear in plain sight. When it is green out, I like the British DPM, but only because I have it, and I don't have the MARPAT.

I am suprised that no one has mentioned breaking up the head/shoulders outline (if you don't wish to be seen by humans). We very much go on shape recognition, and the head and shoulders identify humans. I used to do this when we set up on drug stashes along the border. The smugglers would walk right past me.

[Zero_DgZ]

I like Marpat and its variants. I don't really have any reason, I just think it's nifty.

[af1acura]

I'm in the Air Force and this is our new pattern , I think the AF should have adopted the digital pattern in a different color scheme and ditch the "digital tiger stripe". The test uniform was ridiculous, what was that supposed to blend in with?

Original Test uniform
http://orientalredneck.blogspot.com/graphics/New%20USAF%20uniform.jpg

Finalized uniform
http://www.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/photos/060317-F-0000R-001.jpg

['Card]

If the Air Force really wanted a uniform that would help you guys belnd in with your natural environment, they would have to come up with a way to combine the laminate woodgrain of a government issue desk with that black fiber weave they use on office chairs.

(sorry, made myself chuckle a little bit with that one)

[af1acura]

That was funny but the cubicle I sit in is grey and the desk is speckled grey and the chair is a grey plaid pattern so the Air Force hit the nail on the head! I will blend in great with my desk and cubicle! :neener:

[LAK]

I was sorry to see the old Air Force 1505s fazed out.

On the subject of outlines; if a suitable hat is worn I think of more importance than the face is the hands. These can be covered with a neutral toned pair of gloves.

The hands are more likely to be moved abruptly - animal's eyesight is extra perceptive to movement. They are also more likely to be directly reflective of light.

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http://ssunitedstates.org

[Carl N. Brown]

Last time in the woods I realized that a white hankerchief
looks a lot like a whitetail; decided a camo hankerchief
would be a good idea.

[DontBurnMyFlag]

Im not a big fan of the Air Force Camo. It looks like something a third world Asian military would use. The finalized one anyway.

[Creeping Incrementalism]

Why is it that suddenly every branch gets to have its own camo? When did the policy change?

And if the Air Force gets its own camo, then what about the Navy? Next thing you know, the Coast Guard will have pixelated orange and white.

[MrTwigg]

:neener:

[Sleuth]

The AF Blue camo was so you could blend in with your combat environment - the sky. But with the advent of the pilotless aircraft and drones, you can just wear flip flops, yellow shorts, and a bright green Hawaiian shirt while you sit at a computer watching what the bird sends back to you. Ah, true pushbutton warfare.

[Creeping Incrementalism]

The Chair Force rules! It rules!

[sacp81170a]

But with the advent of the pilotless aircraft and drones, you can just wear flip flops, yellow shorts, and a bright green Hawaiian shirt while you sit at a computer watching what the bird sends back to you. Ah, true pushbutton warfare.

Ahh, for the good old days of SAC, MAD and nuclear annihilation at the drop of a klaxon. Be sure to wear the SPF 10,000,000 along with the flip flops, yellow shorts and bright green Hawaiian shirt. Welders goggles are a must. :D

Minuteman III: the first one's there in 30 minutes or less or the second one's free. :evil:

Nuke 'em 'til they glow, then shoot 'em in the dark.

[DRZinn]

most civilian hunting-based patterns are generally better. The reason the military doesn't adopt them is financial.Not really. Civilian patterns can be tailored to a specific environment, and thus work almost perfectly in that environment. Military camouflage must be one or two patterns that can work anywhere in the world, which means they're not the best in any area.

[crofrog]

most civilian hunting-based patterns are generally better. The reason the military doesn't adopt them is financial.

not to mention that it's also designed to break up the outline when you are moving, not sitting in a tree.

[Zero_DgZ]

Sleuth:
he AF Blue camo was so you could blend in with your combat environment - the sky.


If you ever find yourself in a situation where you need to be camoflauged against the sky, the thought of the enemy spotting you should be the last thing on your mind. I imaigne more prudent lines of worry would involve the following:

- Where did my plane go?
- Am I wearing a parachute?
- What the devil am I over, anyway?
- What are those down there, rose bushes?

[Darth Ruger]

I don't really have any reason, I just think it's nifty.That's the best reason I've heard for using a particular pattern so far. :D


Where did my plane go?LOL!!! :D I was thinking the same thing.

[Tomcat1066]

I work on a Marine base and see MARPAT regularly. A gate-gaurd, standing just a couple feet from me and in front of woods about 75-100 yards behind him, was actually difficult to see. That's why I personally own MARPAT stuff.

I'd love to have some Mulitcam, but that stuff is EX-PENSE-IVE!!!!

Tom

[mnblaster]

Ghillie suit may be one of the best for remaining motionless, it would be the worse choice for anything that required moving around or working in the field.
I like the new pattern the Army is wearing.

[Bob F.]

Stevelyn: I was waiting for someone to mention ASAT. I've heard it is very good and also the similar Predator. Hadn't seen much mention of ASAT in years. Appears to me in my very limited experience, most patterns are simply a dark blob at distance.

mnblaster: Dead on re: ghillie! I have a homemeade one I carry to hunting stand site in a pack. Try to move in the local Greenbrier/honeysuckle/ Hawthorn underbrush and you'll be stark naked in a few steps!!!!!

Stay safe.
Bob

[yorick]

I like this stuff - works good - (pic is my brother) - cheap too


I think I got it at Cabela's (http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/product/standard-item.jsp?_DARGS=/cabelas/en/common/catalog/item-link.jsp_A&_DAV=MainCatcat470076&id=0030835932506a&navCount=12&podId=0030835&parentId=cat470132&navAction=push&catalogCode=IG&rid=&parentType=index&indexId=cat470132&hasJS=true) but I've seen it alot of places for under $50 for the complete suit...

[ghost squire]

IMO Crye camo/multicam and Marpat is the future, its good stuff.

He believes that you don't really need any special pattern (just use OD), since if your enemies are close enough to see the pattern, they are close enough to see and kill you.

Well since the human eye has a pretty good resolution I think thats a load of BS. Simply go out into the woods and test this theory. Patterned camo works, it tricks the eye. A big solid blotch of green looks out of place in nature, but mottled up your eyes just sort of pass over it.

http://www.militarymorons.com/gear/crye1.html

username and password for images is: mm

[Tiber]

OK, not to dump on anyones parade here, but the multicam stuff seems to work best, then followed by RealTree and similar, then the old style pattern, then digital. There's years of misspent paintball games talking here. ;)

Multicam has been beaten to death, so I won't touch on it. Having played paintball against people wearing it, it works great until they get enough paint or dirt on them to stop it's ability to pick up ambient colors well...

RealTree is fantastic until you get into the 'wrong' patch of ground which doesn't match you. Then you're quite obvious.

The 'old' style camo (splotchy indistinct round blobs) works really well in my book and it's still a personal favorite. Need it lighter? Wash it a few times. Need it darker? Buy a fresh pair from the local Army/Navy for $5 or wash the pair you've got in dark colors. (Or wear the pair you use when working on the car, which is my personal favorite in addition to smelling like delicious 90w). The only downside is that there's tons of cheapies out on the market that are the wrong color, or have red in them. Red is almost entirely absent from the local plantlife here and stands out.

I personally have a really easy time spotting people in digital. Why? Because little squares don't naturally occur in nature. 90 degree angles are rare, and a set of them around a color are incredibly rare. I have no problem spotting people in digital and I really wonder why it's been so popular. Even making small, random splotches of color the same size as the squares would be better in my book but squares are the worst idea ever. I know some of you really like it, but next time you're out walking, partially cover a swatch of it in leaves and take a step back. I promise you once you know to look for the squares, you can spot it at a distance much easier.

That being said, the best camo isn't any camo at all, but concealment will win the day every time. Camo just saves your butt when fieldcraft fails you. The trick to getting ahead in paintball, hunting, or the Worst Case is to observe what's in the environment and use it. Are there a lot of people sized bushes? Get under one of them. Are there lots of leaves in the ground? Roll around in them. Rocks? Get between them. Camo will help if it resembles what you're hiding under (which means 90 degree junctions are a no-no), but the point of it is that you should be hiding under it in the first place.

As far as the AirForce is concerned, they should have painted the walls sky-blue everywhere and issued people sky-blue coveralls. On base? Sky blue makes you hard to see! In the air? Sky blue! It just makes sense!

[Gun_nut]

I just got done with a paintball game a few days ago i wasd wearing the Marine Marpat camo forest woodland pattern and i found that the camo works best not being in a prone position in the open but being in the brone/couch in brush your enemy will never see you...

I was walking behind a small tree with some brush cover trying to out flank a friend of mine who was trying to flank my team.. I saw him walking out in the open.. He was wearing bluejeans and a gray sweatshirt. He must have noticed me moving he looked a bit and i stood still then he lifted his mask to look closer then he stood for a few more seconds then i opend up.. he quickly jumped for cover and put his mask on:evil: lucky one did not hit him in the face...:evil:

[sacp81170a]

Tiber: Are there a lot of people sized bushes? Get under one of them.

Ha! Deer hunter's trick or paintballer's trick, it works every time! ;)

Lots of good points about various types of camo patterns here, but Tiber hit the nail squarely on the head, "Camo just saves your butt when fieldcraft fails you." Precisely.

That said, there's nothing wrong with using every possible advantage. What I've gathered so far from this thread is that some camo patterns are better than others in particular situations, but you've gotta match the correct pattern with the local terrain along with using natural material to augment the manmade material. Hmmm, seems like I've heard that somewhere before, some sergeant was trying to drill that into my head at one time. Guess he was right... imagine that. ;)

[mrmeval]

I need to get some printed up and test it.

[ghost squire]

I personally have a really easy time spotting people in digital. Why? Because little squares don't naturally occur in nature. 90 degree angles are rare, and a set of them around a color are incredibly rare. I have no problem spotting people in digital and I really wonder why it's been so popular. Even making small, random splotches of color the same size as the squares would be better in my book but squares are the worst idea ever. I know some of you really like it, but next time you're out walking, partially cover a swatch of it in leaves and take a step back. I promise you once you know to look for the squares, you can spot it at a distance much easier.

Interesting, I'll have to investigate this further.

I need to get some printed up and test it.
I likes it! It screws with the eyes.

[eab]

I have been seeing the new ACU stuff around in the woods compaired with the old woodland recently and I really think it works pretty slick. It seems to "adapt" almost to its soroudings. Need a lighter camo for for working in the snow it "seems" lighter. Through the woods and at night it just seems to get darker and more green. It adapts to the lighting really well is what it seems like. Its really werid and I had my doubts about it at first but I think it will work out better then woodland stuff.

Oh, camo for paintball, I hardly bother, sure it helps some but know what. You can see way the heck further then you can acuralty shoot those paintguns. If the weather is cool enough I will throw on a BDU blouse but most of the time in the summer I am playing in a t-shirt. Yeah they can see my pasty white arms but, I can see them too. For me it does not give that much of an advantage that I am going to be hot and uncomfortable.:D

[mrmeval]

You can use it, it's not anything special. As a matter of fact it's the old skippyslist camo run through a 'make seamless' process then run through a 'spread' process using a photo processing program.

If you want a high resolution image look here:

http://mrmeval.is-a-geek.net/~jcaldwel/images/green-camo-digital.jpg
http://mrmeval.is-a-geek.net/~jcaldwel/images/blue-camo-digital.jpg
http://mrmeval.is-a-geek.net/~jcaldwel/images/pink-camo-digital.jpg

[ArmedBear]

I found a Remington-branded long-sleeve camo T-shirt with perforated fabric throughout. It works well in hot weather.

[Fu-man Shoe]

And if the Air Force gets its own camo, then what about the Navy? Next thing you know, the Coast Guard will have pixelated orange and white.

Hah...you laugh, but as any active duty squid will tell you, the
CNO has started a program called "taskforce uniform" that
is examining (and currently field testing!) the feasibility of
having the Navy transition to digital camoflauge BDU's in blue,
white and gray.

It's causing quite a stink within the ranks, but the powers that
be are quite convinced that this is the way to go. After all, everyone
else is doing it! :rolleyes:

Projected uniform shift date is late 2007. :eek:

[USMC Tanker]

Don't get me wrong, I thank God that I don't see airmen, sailors (with the exception of Docs and Corpsmen), and soldiers wearing Marine Corps MARPAT. But please, MAKE IT STOP!

US AIR FORCE

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a246/dcarter_usmc/th_060317-F-0000R-001.jpg (http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a246/dcarter_usmc/060317-F-0000R-001.jpg)

Looks like some 3rd world country's camies...


US NAVY

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a246/dcarter_usmc/th_web_050218-N-4208W-004.jpg (http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a246/dcarter_usmc/web_050218-N-4208W-004.jpg)

Wow, no comment necessary.


US ARMY

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a246/dcarter_usmc/th_acu-pic02.jpg (http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a246/dcarter_usmc/acu-pic02.jpg)

Again, no comment necessary.

Just MHO, but the Air Force and Navy really don't need to be spending money on new cammies that they don't even need. The Army just ought to start over.

[Lucky]

http://hyperstealth.com/pages/8/index.htm
This Guy is for real. http://hyperstealth.com/pages/5/index.htm some of it looks amateurish, but you see the learning that happened. And now he's equipping militaries and agencies around the world.
http://www.hyperstealth.com/camo/fracture6/Fall-Trail-3-Black_small.jpg is my favorite.

To compare Multicam, Cadpat, Marpat, US Woodland and Desert Marpat check this thread http://airsoftcanada.com/showthread.php?t=20659&page=1
I think Cadpat is tied with Multicam, you don't expect something so green to blend in with mostly dry grass, but it does.
http://k43.pbase.com/v3/98/428498/1/50132412._MG_3239.jpg

Unable to afford those, I just bought the best I could afford, which happens to be discontinued - http://cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/links/link.jsp?id=0038760932619a&type=product&cmCat=search&returnString=No=20&noImage=0&Ntt=natural+gear&Ntk=Products&QueryText=natural+gear&Ntx=matchall&N=4887&Nty=1&returnPage=search-results1.jsp
http://naturalgear.com/shoppingcart/Default.aspx?CategoryID=18&ItemID=ECF%207%203/4%20OZ (for patching and stuff)
http://cabelas.com/cabelas/en/content/Item/93/26/19/i932619snog.jpg
Blends well enough, http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y149/54919391/Range/13.jpg

[grover13]

A truly effective Air Force camouflage pattern would allow them to remain undetected on the golf course. Maybe something the same color beige as the seat covers on the golf carts.

[Zero_DgZ]

Lucky: I probably saw that camo comparison picture about ten times previously before I noticed the guy all the way on the left, past the bunny suit.

I guess that camo you listed blends in pretty well. I can't find a human figure anywhere in your third photo. Are you pulling our legs or what?

[Lucky]

Yea, that Cadpat blends in more than it should, it's almost pure green and it's still hard to see. Incredible. And so's the price of the stuff.

I just took the picture while driving, out the window. It's just a terrain photo, sorry for the misleading preamble, only meant to compare the colours. That was last summer, the wettest one I ever saw, rain for weeks on end, washing bridges out and flooding basements, and at the very greenest there's still a lot of browns and greys and yellows.