SAR1 as a HD & riot gun.


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V4Vendetta
March 14, 2006, 01:39 PM
Would it work well for those purpose's?:confused: Thanks for the help.:)

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kfranz
March 14, 2006, 01:57 PM
You could cause a hell of a riot with a SAR1. Cops might mistake you for an idiot though and give you a bad case of lead poisoning for your trouble.

Of course it would work for HD, all you gots to do is shoot the BG and miss the GG's, right. Might want to check with your neighbors, depending on your proximity to them. Some get pissed about other peoples bullets zinging into their place.

V4Vendetta
March 14, 2006, 02:23 PM
I don't have to worry about neighbors. I have enough land for my own range.:)

kfranz
March 14, 2006, 03:08 PM
Got folks that share your place with you? Clear lines of fire so you don't hit the kids in the bedroom down the hall?

Judging by your sig line, I'd guess no. If not, HD away with your SAR. If your life isn't exactly in line with your sig, perhaps a less penetrating round would be in order.

V4Vendetta
March 14, 2006, 03:24 PM
What do you mean about my signature? I've read it carefully & don't see anything about having kids down the hall. If you see that, please inform me because I have no kids or wife & don't desire either. I'm a bachelor for life.

BilboTN
March 14, 2006, 03:38 PM
Marriage is for fools & the rich. If you want a loyal companion, go with a dog.

I think he was talking about this one.

V4Vendetta
March 14, 2006, 03:42 PM
Oh. I'm not married nor have I ever been. I just know too many people who've had wretched marriages so I've decided to stay single.

kfranz
March 14, 2006, 04:21 PM
BilboTN saw things the same as I. Not passing any judgement on your situation, just trying to take it into consideration for a HD scenario.

Single guy with no neighbors, you'd probably be all right with a sandbagged 1919 or M2.

Gewehr98
March 14, 2006, 04:26 PM
I have a SAR-1 and SLR-95 as defensive firearms in my home. Why?

1. Mrs. G-98 and I live in a cinder block bomb shelter of a beach house.

2. The entire east side of the property faces the Atlantic Ocean.

3. I have a multi-layered defense, including dogs, cameras/CCTV, motion sensors, and a 12-gauge USMC Remington 870Mk1 for close-in work in the safe room while I'm hunkered down and she's dialing 911. There are a few handguns in strategic locations, but they're for fighting our way to the long guns in the safe room, her with the SLR-95, me with the SAR-1.

4. I'm not too worried about excessive penetration, unless a bullet goes out the front door or window. AK mags are stoked with alternating factory Glaser Safety and Winchester soft point rounds. The 870Mk1 is loaded with 2 3/4 full-brass 00 buckshot. In an armed confrontation, I plan on winning.

I'm probably considered on the extreme end of defensive for a residence. I don't consider it paranoia, since I'm an FFL holder, have 100+ firearms in the safes at home at all times, 10,000+ rounds of ammo in storage, and have weathered two separate home invasion robbery attempts at my previous home. Also, hurricanes tend to bring out the worst in human character, houses around me were looted by armed teenagers during the last big evacuation we had here on the barrier island. I'm glad they were picked up by Brevard County and jailed on a no-bail bench order, they'd never have survived had they gone next door to my house.

I find my SAR-1 and SLR-95 to be maneuverable, reliable, and entirely adequate for my home defensive purposes. Were I to move or change work or hobbies, I'd re-evaluate.

http://mauser98.com/sar1bench.jpg

silliman89
March 14, 2006, 08:32 PM
Watch out for the dogs when you're firing the buckshot.

V4Vendetta
March 14, 2006, 08:50 PM
Do all SAR1's have a folding stock like the one in Gewehr98's picture?

Gewehr98
March 14, 2006, 09:26 PM
Watch out for the dogs when you're firing the buckshot.

I would never have thought of that. :scrutiny:

Do all SAR1's have a folding stock like the one in Gewehr98's picture?

Most of the SAR-1's I've seen had the laminated wood buttstock. I bought this SAR-1 second-hand, and the previous owner gave me a discount if I let him keep the handguard, gas tube cover, pistol grip, and buttstock for a different AK project he was working on. No problem, I'd done some homework on folding stocks, and found the Romanian wire sidefolder to be both solid and comfortable. K-Var has the walnut forend and gas tube cover. I chose their brown pistol grip as a substitute until I get a nice wooden pistol grip to match the forend wood later.

Things not visible in the picture are a Buffer Tech recoil buffer, and Tapco G2 fire control group. SAR-1 rifles have a bad habit of giving the owner painful trigger slap, requiring either modification to the original fire control group, or replacement with an aftermarket set. I also threaded the muzzle and installed an original AK slant brake - my personal tribute to Dianne Feinstein and Chuck Schumer. ;)

beerslurpy
March 15, 2006, 12:05 AM
Single guy in a concrete house here and I use an AK as a HD rifle. Unless I get attacked by the Juggernaut, I should win.

buck00
March 15, 2006, 01:23 AM
I think an SAR-1 is a great HD weapon when you don't mind shooting through walls. It is easy to handle in a house. I own a Benelli shotgun, but have actually found my SAR-1 easier to wield going around corners. It isn't a very long rifle.

With a 40 round mag you have plenty of firepower on your side. If you get into a shoot out with a crook with a pistol, he most likely is going to have to reload first.

I also have found the chambering of the first round at the top of the stairs to be very loud in the middle of the night. The racking sound can be pretty intimidating if some burglar is down in your living room. :what:

Cosmoline
March 15, 2006, 04:16 AM
Lordy lordy. I'm constantly amazed by how many people out there think that a slug from a 9x19 or .357 will bounce off sheet rock. There is no added overpenetration danger to using proper expanding 7.62x39 rounds as opposed to standard handgun rounds. That handgun you put so much faith in WILL BLOW A HOLE THROUGH YOUR HOUSE THE SAME AS ANY RIFLE!

There is NO PROBLEM using a SAR-1 for home defense so long as good expanding rounds are used. Indeed it is superior to any short gun for that purpose. You're far less likely to miss and when you hit your foe is less likely to keep going. I'd advise avoiding the Wolf or other Russian production SP's or HP's. They are too primitive to rely on for self defense. Winchester and CorBon make good defensive x39 slugs, or you can easily handload them.

V4Vendetta
March 15, 2006, 09:42 AM
Gewehr98, I love your signature. If you ever write Winnie the Pooh books for $3.00 , I'll buy one.:D

benEzra
March 15, 2006, 10:14 AM
Do all SAR1's have a folding stock like the one in Gewehr98's picture?
None came from Century that way, but a few have been modded with aftermarket folders after the sunset of the AWB.

All SAR-1's were imported during the AWB, which prohibited them from having folders. Some postban WASR's do come with folders, though.

mndfusion
March 15, 2006, 06:10 PM
shooting through walls is safer than poking around the corner

Dave R
March 15, 2006, 08:39 PM
I think its a great choice, given that you don't worry about over-penetration. I think its particularly good for "riot control."

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Nothing says "I WILL kill every single one of you before you have a chance to reconsider the poor choices you made in life" like an AK.

MTMilitiaman
March 15, 2006, 11:08 PM
HAHAHA. I love it when he says that.

Regarding an AK for personal defense:

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=36725&d=1141716536

Your move.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=36719&d=1141699705

Checkmate.

Don't Tread On Me
March 16, 2006, 12:34 AM
Any AK should be a top-notch home defense weapon. Superior to a shotgun even. Not to turn this into a shotgun vs. rifle thread, but at home defense ranges, it is just as easy to miss with a shotgun.

Best advice: PENETRATION is a benefit, not a liability!!!! If you hear the thug in your kitchen, perforate the kitchen wall. The internet gun forums are just jam packed with excessive penetration worrywarts.


The greatest considerations for a home defense weapon are (in no particular order)


highest possible ammunition capacity
fast rapid fire capability
ability to easily penetrate walls and other concealment/cover
cartridge suitable for use against a human being
reliable
manuverable / ergonomic
low to mild recoil



The SAR-1 is all of these. 30rds gives you a greater chance of success. Rapid fire always trumps BIG-single shots. Blasting through walls can only help, not hurt you. 7.62x39 does good work on humans. AK is manuverable in a hallway. Recoil isn't low, but mild, and that means you can control the muzzle for rapid fire. It is reliable and should vomit lead in the direction of your choice.

Ironically, these attributes are exactly what the military seeks. Except they have better options due to armor piercing ammo and full-auto fire.

Don't trust an AK just because "it's an AK"...it's a machine like anything else, and I've seen them FAIL and JAM. Like anything else, test it extensively prior to commissioning it to HD duty. Don't be like most of these AK nuts. Your life is worth a lot more than to simply have it rely on the reputation of a firearm. TEST, TEST, TEST.

MTMilitiaman
March 16, 2006, 12:50 AM
You mean like running a couple cases of ammo through it with little or no cleaning and then, barring any sort of failure, and boring of the rifle's monotous predictability, throwing a handful of sand into the reciever, firing a 30 round magazine, throwing it in a river, then firing it until the magazine is filled with river muck and refuses to function? Sort of test it by firing the most dispicible lacquered steel cased crap you can find, running it until the handguard nearly bursts into flames, then returning it unceremoniously to its post at the head of your bed because you have simply given up on trying to make the thing quit? Yeah, I'll get right on that. O wait. I already have.

And I hope you weren't serious about shooting through a wall in your house at an unidentified target. I will admit I consider penetration a good thing and mock the overpenetration-philes, and that I would shoot through a wall or other covering obstactle at an identified threat if needed. I also consider a rifle carbine to be a far more versitile and practical defensive weapon than a shotgun. But merely blasting through walls at sounds seems a little...stupid.

Don't Tread On Me
March 16, 2006, 03:24 PM
I don't think throwing sand in a firearm is a worthy torture test, even for an AK. If you plan on assaulting a beach, or fighting in a desert, it might be a good idea. Test your weapon as you envision you might use it. Chances are, it won't involve mud and sand in the action, but YMMV. It's like testing your rifle in Antartica when you live in Arizona. Not much can be learned from it, and if anything, you are just incurring unnecessary wear and tear.

I've seen too many people at the range have issues with an AK to just say "wow, it's an AK, just bust it out of the box and it will be 1000% reliable because it's name is an AK"...That's all I am saying. AK's usually do not develop problems. IF they have problems, they usually come with them from the factory or builder. Either that or something new was introduced, like a faulty magazine (which that is rare too) Testing is critical. A good test would be rapid firing multiple magazines. High heat and the abuse of sustained rapid fire is more suited to what a person might use in a defensive scenario. When I think defense, I don't think of hiking in the mountains getting sand in my rifle for 6 weeks. I'm thinking armed scumbag trying to kill me, I will saturate them with lead. So the rifles goal is to at least empty 1 magazine without stoppage. Piece of cake.

In any event, ensure that all the trigger parts and other parts can handle being slapped around by recoil (there are an aweful lot of pot-metal replacement parts out there that show excessive wear after minimal use). In my opinion, shooting a couple of slow fire mags (~60rds total) then writing the weapon off as reliable and as HD weapon isn't ideal. But that's what I've seen from so many people. To each their own.

Another thing to note. Just because it is an AK doesn't mean one should leave it filthy. Yes, it can handle it, but why do it? If the rifle is 99.99% reliable (nothing is 100%), why not add a hair more by keeping it clean? Only toothless, barefoot, smelly, illiterate conscripts and 3rd world thugs keep their rifles filthy. The Soviets trained their AK-47/74 equipped professional soldiers to clean their AK's after EACH USE. That's the proper way. Sure, the AK is perhaps the most tolerant rifle of dirt ever, I agree. But that is no excuse not to clean it. Proper maintenance can only help, not hurt. All this "I've never cleaned my AK" is nothing more than ignorant chest-beating. A lot of this spreads around the net, then I see people at the range spouting the same stuff with disgustingly filthy AK's and they do have stoppages sometimes.

If your AK is torture tested over hundreds or thousands of rounds without a single stoppage - GOOD. But the guy who started this thread is asking about an AK for homedefense. I'm assuming from his responses, he doesn't own a SAR-1 or an AK (I could be wrong). When he does go and buy one, he ought to test it properly, and not be biased by inflated interenet hype and crazy expectations.


**

As for the shooting through the walls thing. If I were living by myself, and I know no one else has a key to my home...I'm opening up on the home invader. I wouldn't shoot at an unidentified target if I know my roomate comes home late at night, or if I have teenage kids. Common sense. Here in Florida, the law protects me 100% in this situation. If someone breaks into my home, I have every right to open up on them.


You can choose to wait till you see them face to face. Face to face means they have a chance to shoot back. I'm going to start firing ASAP. How many people do you know that gravitate TOWARDS gunfire? Huh? Not many. If I can diffuse the situation by firing my weapon and never having to contront them face-to-face, then that is a postitive for ME. I stay alive, that's winning. Anytime I am exposed to them, I face the chance of being hit or killed. They can shoot at me through the walls with panic fire too. But I doubt they'll do that after I begin shooting. They're reaction will (most likely) be to run or exit the house. If they are hell bent on killing me, then they know that I am armed (and probably better so than they are) and that their ability to breach an entrance into the room where I am is suicidal. Again, who runs INTO gunfire?

It is up to the individual to decide how best to defend their home. My plan is to stay alive at all costs. Part of that plan doesn't include worrying about where my bullets are going. Call it reckless if you want, I call it survival.


P.S. MTMillitiaMan,

Your AK is sweet. That is probably the most ideal configuration.

V4Vendetta
March 16, 2006, 04:00 PM
"I'm assuming from his responses, he doesn't own a SAR-1 or an AK (I could be wrong). "

Your right on the nose. I'm actualy in the process of buying a used one from a fellow member here. I just wanted a little non-biased info. Thaks guys.:)

MTMilitiaman
March 16, 2006, 05:27 PM
I did the sand test just because I had heard people say the AK could take it but thought it would be interesting to find out. It was a curiosity thing. The trigger was gritty, but it went through an entire 30 round magazine in about 10 seconds. Then I dunked it in a river and fired rounds until it started malfunctioning--the magazine was about 1/3 full of river muck. I hosed it down with WD-40 directly afterwards to keep it from rusting, then cleaned it thoroughly when I got home. I've put about 2500 rounds through it. It gets its reciever wiped down about ever 500 to 700 rounds, but until the river test, I had put about 2200 or so rounds through it without cleaning the bore. I don't really advocate doing this and am not sure what it proves myself, but I know I am more confident in my rifle knowing it can take it.

I only have about 7 or 8 magazines for it. I'd like to get 10 to 15 more Bulgy waffle mags but funds are a little short right now. Nevertheless, this allows me to over 200 rounds loaded in magazines. I've put this rifle through all 220 rounds as fast as the mags could be changed. The handguards were smoking and the rifle was scorching hot (I still have a scar on my side from where one of the steel cases hit me), but the rifle will not malfunction. It did it once my first range visit and twice in the last ten rounds of the river test, but ran a good 2000 rounds between my first range outting and the river test without a hiccup, has run about 300 rounds since then flawlessly, and in my experience, is about as reliable as a sunrise unless you fill the magazine with river mud. I've shot it when it was 0 degrees out, when it was 120 degrees out, and everywhere in between. Wet, dry, doesn't matter. I absolutely trust it with my life as much for its reliability and durability as the fact that I seem to be able to hit what I aim at with it.

The trigger components are TAPCO G2. My impression of the parts before I installed them was they were much higher quality than the trigger components Century put in the rifle. The trigger pull was reduced to a crisp ~3 pound pull and trigger slap completely eliminated.

Now I am anxious for my brother's midtour leave. We will have 1300 to 1800 rounds at our disposal by then so in the course of a week my rifle should get at least another 500 to 800 rounds run through it. The red dot should be very much dialed in by then and I look forward to running some targets out to 300 yards. It took me about 8 rounds to hit a peice of firewood at that range on my prior range visit, adjusting for Kentucky windage. But I feel when properly zeroed, the PK-AS should make regular hits on human sized targets fairly easy.

As for the other issue, I have friends and family and neighbors. If my brother or one of his friends comes stumbling into my house at 2 in the morning piss drunk, I would rather give him a couch and a garbage can than two in the chest. At any rate, I feel identifying a target is always a good idea. I simply can't justify opening up through a wall at an unidentified target. Now if I identify someone as hostile and they try to hide behind a table, door, or wall, they are in for a nasty surprise. But until then, I'd prefer to have eyes on something before I decide whether or not to open up on it. For me it isn't even as much a legal thing as a moral thing.

MechAg94
March 16, 2006, 06:05 PM
I always clean my Vepr. I don't worry about doing a lot of detail stripping and polishing, but I do clean the bore and wipe things down. It is nice to know it won't hang up if I don't clean it well enough.

buck00
March 16, 2006, 07:56 PM
MTMilitiaman

I like what you've done with it. The scope and front grip are nice. Rock on! :evil:

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