[Dave McCracken]

What do you want to ask but haven't?

From the numbers of views on some threads, it looks to me like there's lots of folks out there using this as a learning tool, which tickles me to death.

Between Erick,Al,Paul,Howard, myself and others here too numerous to mention,we've got a century or two of shotgunning experience to draw upon.

Anyway, let's hear from the folks who haven't been using shotguns since Coolidge was Prez and would like some input on whatever's bothering them.

For those shy folks that read but not post, PM me and I'll answer privately or post publicly but anonymously so the think tank can give you the answers you need.

[ahadams]

Hi Dave,

well I've got a bunch of questions - in no particular order:

1. I've got a couple of 30 cal ammo boxes (mil surplus type) of 12 gauge rounds going back the better part of 50 years - my late father never through away a live round in his life. How do I find out what these are worth (if anything - a lot of them are paper), how do I sell the ones that are worth something (I have my dad's deer rifle and my brother has his shotgun) and how do I determine which ones are still safe to fire?

2 I have a Mossy 500 (with the ported barrel) with interchangeable slug and shot barrels and the interchangable chokes for the shot barrel. Call me stupid but I didn't look at the slug barrel until recently (I never needed to, okay?) and I discovered that the rear sight on the slug barrel ISN'T there. The base is, but the sight isn't - what do I do that wont cost me an arm and a leg?

3. Is there one standard way to determine when and with what, to use which choke? everybody has opinions, but nobody has facts!?

4. for my HD shotgun, (870 Express, 12 Gauge) is it worth it to pay to have the gold bead replaced and if so, how much should I pay and with what should it be replaced?

how's that for starters? :)

[Dave McCracken]

Arlin, here goes....

Post over on Shooting Sportsman magazine's BB about the shells. Single shells have little value, full boxes may.

Assuming proper gauge and chamber length, old shells kept dry and cool can be fired safely. Quality of pattern is oft terrible. You've no idea how much better new ammo is.

Mossberg probably will send you a new rear sight at nomimal cost. Many smiths carry spares, so call around.

The only way I know of to determine which choke to use with which load and mission from a given shotgun is patterning and actual use. Each shotgun is a law unto itself.I suggest picking the load and mission(Clays, geese, gobblers, goblins), range and then choke.A good all around choke is probably something like Light Modified, which I'd define as about .015".

HD shotguns USUALLY work well with beads. In low light, good form and fit can mean the bead's a little superflous. Before dropping major bucks on an Ashley Outdoors radioactive dot or the more fragile green worm F/Os, try a $2 bottle of Testor's Enamel in Bright Yellow. Your local hobby shop should have it. Next up, if that doesn't do it, might be the bigger Bradley type beads seen on target shotguns.

HTH....

[safado]

I'm new around this board--just getting back into guns that I loved shooting from my youth. Went to the range this past weekend for the first time in years and LOVED every minute of it!! I didn't want to go home! :D

I've made myself a shopping list and have figured out what I'm getting for a rifle (Ruger 10/22 target for plinking, haven't picked a scope yet), handgun (Glock 17 and 26, H&K USP .45 next on the list) but now I need a shotgun recommendation!

I don't do any hunting but I love to shoot skeet (I'm a well seasoned novice). Can anyone make some recommendations on what I should be looking at? Ideally it'd be something that could double for home defense but it's not an absolute requirement. I'll definitely be getting a Class III weapon for home defense/shooting fun (recommendations welcome too!).

Cost isn't a concern---I want craftsmanship and reliability and something I can hand down to my sons some day.

Thanks for the advice.

[Dave McCracken]

Get a Class III weapon for HD if you want, but a shotgun is probably a better choice. And,there's so much else we can do with shotguns. Multiple use means lots of practice disguised as fun means proficiency and effectiveness.

And, in the event that one has to use a HD tool, a shotgun is slightly more PC than a full auto. Since most folks these days know as little about real guns and real shooting as a clam does calculus,this might just save your liberty, pension and house.

The Big Four pumps are a good place to start, indeed they're a great choice for a first/only shotgun. The Combos with one long barrel for clays and birds and a short one for slugs and HD/CD are a lot of gun for the money. My choice is the 870.

Among the autos, there's lots of fans of the Remington 1100, various Beretta and Benell autos, the Winchester X-2 and it's twin Browning.

I suggest hanging out at the range and trying out different shotguns until one just feels right.

[safado]

Thanks for the advice Dave!

After some additional reading, it seems the Remington 870 is a highly recommended shotgun on this board! Which model would you recommend or are they all winners? I'm looking at the express, the wingmaster or the marine magnum (it rains all the time here in Oregon!).

Thanks again.

[Dave McCracken]

They're all winners. The MM may be slightly more rust resistant, but the 1950 produced HD 870 upstairs has seen lots of goose/duck blinds,salt marshes, hot ranges, and my sweaty paws in the 40 some years it's been mine. Zero rust. Good PM and post use cleaning's the key.

Lots of us like the older ones better. QC has seriously slipped in recent years in Ilion, and some newer changes like the locking safety and the dimpled mag tube do not sit well with us irascible old 870 fans. These are fixable, but one shouldn't have to.

Also,an OOB 870 is an awesome close range weapon, but for those of us who like bellsnwhistles, there's more aftermarket stuff around for the 870 than all other shotguns combined. At this point in time, one could start with a stripped 870 receiver, bolt and action bars, and put together a decent shotgun using no other Remington products.

Like the 1911 GM, accessories and mods exist to fll any need or want.

HTH....

[safado]

Thanks again Dave!

[Ringer]

OK, I’ll bite.

I bought my first shotgun a couple months ago (870 Express). I had always wanted a shotgun and thought it would be good to have around for HD. Originally I was planning on getting an 18” barrel for HD and using the 28” for target shooting and hopefully trying out trap. I’m still getting use to the gun; you may recall my “Always off to the Left” post. I’m still working on that, my last trip to the range was on a weekend and the Turkey hunters were kinda lined up at the only two lanes available for patterning shot. I’ll report back on that when I have results.

So here are some of my questions and things on my mind.

I’m now thinking I’m better off just purchasing a second gun for HD and leaving my 28” 870 alone. I only paid $239 for it and the money I would spend on an additional barrel and mag extension alone is approaching the $200 range. I’d like to have Ghost Ring sights for HD and not sure that is really an option with just one gun as the 28” barrel would still have the bead sight. I like the Mossberg 500, the Persuader with 18.5” barrel, GR sights and parkerized finish. The only thing I would really have to add is a light. I also like the idea of trying out a different make of shotgun. With that said I’m also thinking that I’m better off with another 870 since I will be shooting that more often. It doesn’t seem like a good idea to use a different type of gun for HD than what you normally shoot with, at least for shotgun newbie like myself. I guess I’m leaning towards the 7 shot, synthetic stock 18” barrel 870. I would probably just have to pay someone to install GR sights. Are the GR sights really an advantage at 10 yards and under? That is max distance inside my home.

About lights. Any comments on Surefire forends, versus Insight/Streamlight style? What about the less expensive lights from TacStar? Are these OK if you don’t do a lot of shooting with them installed or better off saving up for one of the others? As far as the pressure switch goes for any of these lights, are they easily removable? I believe the TacStar uses Velcro, what about others?

I’m trying to decide the best way to try out Trap shooting at my local DNR range. It looks like fun and a good way to practice. The problem is I don’t really have anyone to try this with. The range is really pretty nice. I just don’t know enough about it to feel comfortable trying it out on my own. They offer “training” at like $125 an hour, maybe I will have to cough up some cash to get started but that just seemed a little pricey to me.

These are just some thoughts that come to mind right now. I know I rambled a bit, but hey you asked :) . I could probably post everyday with a new question that has popped into my head, but I wouldn’t feel right about that. I’m definitely one of the ones doing a lot of the viewing/learning from other posts here.

One final note is that I’ll continue keeping my .357 Magnum nearby for HD until I get my shotgun skills up to par.

Thanks!

[El Tejon]

My question: if I refer to Title II weapons as "Class III" weapons, how long before a sleep-deprived El Tejon will be driven 'round the bend (as if he is not there already)?:D

[Dave McCracken]

El Tejon's query first. The answer is not long at all. Get some rest. See how easy that was?

And now, Ringer's....

First, it's often nearly as cheap(expensive) to buy a used 870 as to buy a new barrel.But, finding one with the barrel one wants may be difficult. If a decent 870 with a short barrel turned up at a decent price, I'd snap it up on GPs. You may want to check with local shops though, oft there's used 18" riot barrels at decent prices.

Second, pure HD guns really do not benefit much from GR sights. My two "Serious" 870s have them because I hunt with them. Longer range slug work is easier with those sights. Inside the house or up to 25 yards, they really do not add to speed or accuracy.

Third, the 500 is a decent shotgun, but we do better,IMO, sticking to one brand. Picking up another make means it takes longer to figure out where the safety and slide release are, etc. In high stress, short time frame crises, this can be fatal to the wrong people.

Fourth, as for lights, others can help you out more than I. Still looking for a good one that doesn't cost more than an 870.

Fifth, some trapshooters dislike shooting with rookies, others do not, and some actually like seeing folks get started right. Ask some to help walk you through your first round. Betcha they will.

Sixth, good training is essential, a fecally cognizant instructor can take decades off the learning curve. For $125 an hour I'd want sex, too, but it may be worth it.

Remember that not everyone that shoots well can instruct,and a fancy shooting vest, an AA classification, and straight patches do not a teacher make. Nor do black BDUs and a military highntight.

HTH, now to rest these tired fingers and get more coffee....

[vertigo7]

My turn to toss in a question:

The safety on my Mossberg 590A1 is sticking. It's about 3 times more difficult to change settings in either direction than it was when I got it a couple months ago. I've only taken it out to play twice since I bought it. Standard maintenance, lube and cleaning performed per the manual. What can I do to fix this? And while I'm fixing it, is there a better aftermarket replacement for the safety switch?

vertigo7

[Zebulon]

Hi Dave...A couple questions....First, Would you describe your personal favorite 870's? What have you done with them? Secondly. I have a Wilson/ST Standard 870 and a 870P. I ordered the Wilson with the Short stock...It's a little too short and the standard wood stock on the 870P is just slightly too long. Both are managable but I'm amazed at the difference that 1" makes....Which would you choose if your only options were too short or too long? I'm asking because I'd like to buy another 870..(I have the fever!) and I'm torn between the two. Lastly, do you build shotguns for people? If so, how about some contact information.....Thanks, Zebulon

[Dave McCracken]

Vertigo, I'm no smith, but try stripping everything down and see if there's something impeding movement inside the receiver. Grunge buildup usually takes longer than two sessions, but who knows?

Is it under warranty?

Zebulon, I'm still no smith(G). My personal favorites include Frankenstein, the one I built from parts. However, your question seems to be more geared towards "Serious" shotguns. So....

I put both of my "Serious" 870s together as good defensive shotguns and slug shooters for deer hunting. One has the original 30" Full barrel cut to 18" and a little, Lyman peep sight with ramped front sight, a two shot magazine extension and a long forcing cone. Trigger's under 4 lbs, and this one came like that. Owned it since Ike was president. This one has a 6 shot Side Saddle cut to 5 to clear the peep base.

The other I put together in the late 80s or very early 90s. The receiver started out on an Arlington Va Cruiser gun.I bought it to replace the earlier one for hunting, deciding it should serve simply as a dedicated homeowner's insurance tool. This one has a 3 shot extension, 20" barrel, Williams peep sight, long cone, and it took a smith and $40 or so to get a sub 4 lb pull. No S/S on this one, as a hunting tool it gets toted lots. Weight on this runs close to 9 lbs, the other half a lb more.

Both have black painted wood, sling studs, and good pads. Neither has a light yet. Both are quite smooth, and have an enviable record of performance.

Neither is state of the art, but good functional pieces that can serve my family for decades.

I'm no smith, but most of the mods and addons done on these do not need a smith. Exceptions were the cones, one trigger job and the D&T for the peeps.

IOW, if you can cross the street on the green light and use a screwdriver, you can do as well. I'm a klutz with most tools.

As for stocks....

My 870TB Trap has a LOP of very close to 15". I'm on the larger side, and find the standard stocks on my "Serious" guns a hair on the short side. That's all to the good. Resetting the position of the front hand on the forearm can compensate for a short stock. Getting a too long stock in position can take too long.

The 20 Gauge YE here for the kids has a Youth stock of about 13" LOP. I do not shoot my best with it, but I could pass a police qualifier with it. The 14" stocks come closer than any other length for GP use for me, and I could operate them under heavy winter clothing or armor. Have, in fact.

Hogue's overbuilt synthetic stocks come with a Cadet variant that's getting good reviews, but before that try...

Use a thick piece of old leather strap as a spacer. Add 1/4" to the short stock, replace pad, and try it out. Pachmyer Decellerators are outstanding, affordable and come in thicknesses from 3/4-1 1/4". Get the right one after figuring what works both for you and go aheadon.

If I were putting together another "Serious" 870 on a limited budget, I'd....

Get a beater police turnin or other short 870 of 38-42" long.

Get the stock fitting and the trigger under a 4 lb clean pull. For "Serious" use, if you can mount the thing easily under stress and your thumb doesn't bump your schnozz under recoil, it's close enough to work with.

Add studs for a sling.

Add a two shot extension. For most folks this seems the best compromise between capacity and front end weight.

Work polish it until smooth by BA/UU/R. After some time, I'd add anything that would aid accomplishing the mission, from a long cone to a light to upgraded sights. Add one thing at a time(If at all!) and shoot it in generously before making other changes.

If loaded with money, add a Vang barrel or similar.

FWIW, most of the shotgun cognizant professionals I've known have "Serious" shotguns setup along these lines. The bellsnwhistles and Ninja/Tac stuff are relatively scarce...

HTH, sing out if I missed anything.

[Brian D.]

Lemme warn ya now, I ain't one 'a' these goshdang whippersnappers myself, consarn it, but I got a question anyway, since I don't see it elsewhere in this thread. You a fan of the Speedfeed stocks that hold the two extra rounds on each side? They seem to be a good fit for me, though I won't spring an extra $75-$100 for the gizmo. One of my HD pumps is so equipped. There ever been any breakage/malfunction issues with the Speedfeed?

[Dave McCracken]

The Speedfeed stocks themselves seem well made, and oddly enough some are going on tweaked target shotguns.

The ammo storage thingies tend to lose rounds under recoil, according to common report. Otherwise, no bad input.

HTH...

[Okiecruffler]

I've got an easy question. Even tho' you're an 870 kinda guy, who do you think makes a good aftermarket stock for a mossy 500? The wife has the PG thing and she doesn't seem to mind the recoil so much, but she cain't hit nothing. I'd like to have a full non-folding stock with a PG. And have you tried any pumps with the PG slide. I don't know what purpose it serves, but it looks cool.

[Zeke Menuar]

I have a "classic" Western Field 550AL 12ga inherited from my grandfather. It came with a 28" vent-rib barrel and three win-choke tubes in imp cyl, modified and full choke. It must have been an upscale model. It has some real cheesy engraving on the reciever and some wannabe imitation bolt jeweling. I have only shot clay once with it. I didn't do too bad for a novice. All those years shooting movers at IPSC matches mean't going to bigger moving targets at a longer distance wasn't much of a stretch. Gave my friend and his 11-87 a run for his money. Seems to be pretty accurate in either mod or improved chokes. Since it is in reality a Mossberg 500 it is well built and real solid. I like the tang safety also.

Took it out last week and put some slugs through it just for drill. Shoots slugs real good, 5" groups @50yds offhand with only a bead sight. Good enough for deer hunting if I so choose. Shoots good 00 buck patterns as well. Currently looking for a 20-22" vent rib barrel to use the gun for a bumming-around-rifle. Gun Parts has some 18.5" barrels in stock. Probably go that route as a stop gap until I can find a short(20-22") barrel with choke tubes.

Right now I need a decent sighting system that isn't too expensive that clamps on to the rib for better accuracy with slugs. I also need a new recoil pad. The one that is on it now is old and hard and doesn't work real well. I put about 25 rounds of slugs and 25 rounds of buckshot through it last week. But I paid for it later. The pad has got to go. Until I find a range to shoot clays at, most of my shooting is with slugs. There is something about putting 3/4" holes in things that is just plain cool!

Enough rambling

Thanks
ZM

[Skunkabilly]

A stance and grip question, do you do a push-pull with the shotgun, i.e. pull in with both paws and push out with shoulder?

[sm]

I'm not Dave, he is the smart fella around here...

Gun fit I've harped about before. My "positioning" is same, regardless of what I'm shotgunning. I focus on target, I push out , then into "pocket". Gun comes to me, I don't "go to the gun". The moment the SG slides into pocket, I'm ready to fire that very instant.

My eyes, positioning, swing...everything is going on, while the gun gets mounted into pocket. Game, clays, steel , 00 or slugs...same deal.

Curious what Dave, Correia , others do myself. Curious if anyone else has toe and heel along with inside of pad contoured ( not able to hang up). I use Deacelorators (sp?) , so gun won't slip, not worried about recoil , I shot many K's upon K's of rds without one...did smooth butt so nothing hung up.

[Dave McCracken]

I've handled and shot a little with PG slides, John. I'm not impressed. The added bulk could be disadvantageous in CQ. And maybe I'm spoiled by the fine forearms on 870s. Darn near all of them are easy to hang on to.

As for PG Full stocks on Mossies, the safety location kinda precludes these.

Mrs Cruffler might like that Hogue overbuilt in the shorter length. Midway has these also on sale,$40-50. Just checked the Cabela's catalog I keep in the bathroom(old family tradition), they have it a little cheaper...

Zeke,Pachmyer has a Decellerator model precut for 500s. This should come close to perfect for you though some grinding may be needed to even it up. Other good ones include KickEez and the new Limbsaver.

Williams makes a set of open sights that mount on a vent rib. Slugs do destory things nicely, but find a trap and skeet range. Those fast doubles will make you learn your moves like you won't believe.

Skunk, my mount varies a little with the shotgun and mission. For fast stuff, I tend to roll my shotgun into the pad as it's coming up and back. For trap, the firing hand pulls the shotgun back into my shoulder since I do not want to pump that valuable empty hull onto the mud and dirt and my shoulder stays put. For repeat shots, the forward hand does the pulling. But try out different stuff and find out what works for you and when.

73, not smart, just had the time to get some stuff pounded into my thick, peasant skull.

I have recontoured the toes of many pads and also done a few along the inside edge to better fit the pocket. The toe thing is practically universal in improving comfort. The inside depends on build and style, IMO. Some SC dedicated pads now have the heel rounded off a bit for faster mounting, I may try this next time I break out the belt sander to round the toe on a new pad. A trap style pad seems to work best for my present style of shooting regardless of discipline, but all have their toes rounded to better fit my barreled chest.

[MacPelto]

OK, here we go.

1) When did o/u shotguns really come into vogue? All the 'classics' seem to be sxs.

2) What are the advantages/disadvantages of sxs vs. o/u for upland hunting?

3) Why does adding 'savage' to 'fox' = $250 less?

[Kestrel]

Dave,

Just wanted to give a public thanks for all your help on this forum. Also to all the others that give excellent advice. This is what makes it fun and informative.

A big thank you.

Steve

[Dave McCracken]

They tell me the O/U is the older design, but they didn't take off in the US until JM Browning introduced the Superposed, made in Belgium. These were sold at decent prices and a generation of WWI vets and shotgunners used to the single sighting plane of a repeating shotgun went for them like wolves after meat. If I had to give a date, post WWII for the changeover.

Some of the cognoscienti like Brister say the SXS works better on game that's unpredictable, and the vertical double better where the target flight can be anticipated and is more precise. I note that Brister was a hotshot on the Live Pigeon circuit in Texas and Mexico, a high payoff gamer for the best shooters. When the money was on the line, Brister used a Perazzi O/U.

SxS use has seen a renaissance in the last 20 years of so. Many of these are GREAT hunting guns, and those imported from the UK that have price tags more than a new P/U 4X4, with big engine,big tires and tow package appeal to the art lover within us and to those who like to show off their discretionary income.

Ansley Fox was a terrific firearms designer but a poor businessman. After his company went under, Savage bought it out and used the name on a cheaper double.

REAL Foxes are Forever Guns, built to last generations. Savage Foxes are utilitarian doubles, good enough but sans the master's touch and ken.

Steve, you're very welcome. I'm glad I can help...

[Zebulon]

Dave....Thanks so much for all the tips....I'm a little embarrassed that a shotgun guy of your stature finds it unneccessary to spend stupid amounts of money to get into the game...I'm embarrassed that is, that I probably overspent when it was'nt needed. Do you teach? If so, where can I get more information? Ive spent some time reading your comments wherever I can find them, and needless to say, you have a huge fanbase...Thanks for taking the time to invite us all in......Zebulon....BTW, what is...BA/UU/R?

[Al Thompson]

Yep. Dave's THE man on the scattergun stuff.

BA/UU/R is his mantra. It's buy ammo, use up, repeat... Shotguns are very unlike handguns and rifles - one's focus is on the target, not the (front) sight.

[Dave McCracken]

Al, "Flattery will get you anything"- Mae West....

Don't be embarrassed, plenty of my money got wasted. However, it was longer ago than most so the stories have died out(G)...

These days our finances require some stern trimming to keep kids in College, and discretionary income is but a pittance. So, I get inventive instead of just signing checks.

BA/UU/R is as friend Al states. Also, it's a reminder that once fit and form reach an acceptable level, the best way to shoot better is to shoot more. Let the targets teach you.

Finally,I do not consider myself an expert. The more I learn about shotgunning, the more I ken that I do not know. It's glad I am to pass on what I do know, and continue learning as I may.

[sm]

Well I have learned a bunch from Dave and all those whom share on this Forum. Thanks to Dave, and all whom contribute.

Another one whom will buy a book if so authored by Dave. We have some classic material on archive b/t TFL and THR.

[Skunkabilly]

BA/UU/R is his mantra. It's buy ammo, use up, repeat... Shotguns are very unlike handguns and rifles - one's focus is on the target, not the (front) sight.

Al, for stuff on the ground as well? I was taught that for airborne targets but was unsure about ground targets. :confused:

[LCSNM]

I have an 870, love it, no problems, cyl barrel.

I know nothing about chokes, except from what I have gleaned from your excellent articles and other comments and forums. I am anxious to experiment.

I ordered a Baikal SXS Bounty Hunter IZH43KH BOUNTY HUNTER II WITH TRUE HAMMERS for fun. Don't know when it is going to arrive, appears to be a big demand. I downloaded the owners manual off the website for getting a jump on familiarization. According to the ordering description, it comes with FULL, MODIFIED, AND IMPROVED CYL CHOKE.

QUESTION: It is unclear to me if there is TWO chokes of each type or just ONE. Sure wouldn't like to try to remember specific loads for EACH barrel. I do remember that some people have different chokes installed for a follow on shot.

Silly question for some, but I AM on a learning curve, absorbing as much as I can, ahead of time. In the end, nothing like hands on familiarization, patterning etc.

[yy]

I think I will be able to afford a Remington 870 in two to five years. New baby on the way... So how does one go about finding a 870 express combo (I like Dave's recommendation, but how to get 14 inch barrel as private citizen?) at a decent price?

much thanks

[Skunkabilly]

yy, AFAIK, forget the 14" in California.

Turner's has occasional sales where the HD model (870 Express w/ full length magtube) goes for $300.

[Dave McCracken]

LCSNM, your Bounty Hunter probably comes with choke tubes, interchangeable inserts at the muzzle that enable the owner to select the constriction that would best control the pattern for the shot. At a given distance, Improved Cylinder(IC) has a more open pattern than Modified, which has one more open than Full Choke. Use IC for Close shots, Modified for longer, Full for the longest.

This is oversimplified, but IMO you'll get the idea. You probably have one of each, so you can use one barrel best closer than the other. The thread, Chokes 101 that I started and many of the cogniscienti added to will have much more for you.

YY, stick with at least an 18" barrel, shorter ones can be had with lots of paperwork, but not worth the hassle.


HTH....

[LCSNM]

Dave, allow me to try again.

On SxS shotguns that come with chokes, as the Bounty Hunter does. They say Full , Modified and IC. OK, now does a mfr normally provide TWO of each TYPE or just one. That was my question. In other words will there be 6 choke tubes or 3 choke tubes, one of each type or two of each type.

Dave, I DO THANK YOU for all of your 101 series. I have already devoured them over and over. They are easy to understand and pretty thorough, along with all the other good comments from the forumites. I do thank you all!

[Dave McCracken]

You're very welcome,LCSNM, glad to help.

I've none of these, but most makers furnish ONE tube in each constriction. Ruger does offer two skeet chokes with its new SXS, but they are the exception.

Dunno if there's aftermarket tubes available.IOW, you'll not be able to have both barrels Full/Full, or IC/IC or M/M.

But....

Most folks don't want the same choke in both barrels. Usually, one works for close shots, one for farther. A two triggered SXS has instant choke selection.

Example, you move in behind the pointer and the covey flushes. Focussing on one bird, you drop that one with the right,I/C barrel, find another in your vision and take it also. The first was shot at 19 yards, good distance for I/C, second at 28, good for Modified.

Or, as the guide says "Take them" you stand up in the blind and swing on a goose. Knowing the closest birds will be within range for a moment longer, you use the left barrel with it's Full choke to blast one of the farther honkers, then go to the front trigger and the Mod choke to take a "Candy Bird" still near the decoys.

THIS is the big reason doubles are still the choice of many hunters. Instant choices, IF you have two triggers. A selective single trigger can be preset, but it's not quite as versatile.

HTH...

[rebbryan]

gubroker.com had an 870 HD w/ mag extension for $220

[bukijin]

Well - since you asked for newbie questions...
I'm really confused about 12 gauge ammunition. I've heard about different shot type, size and amount in various loads. I've recently bought my first shotgun - a general purpose SxS 12g coach gun. What kinds of ammo should I buy for it for different purposes? What kind of 12g ammo is good to stock up on ?
Thanks for your help.

[Dave McCracken]

Zeb, my apologies. I overlooked a query of yours and something kept bothering me about this thread. So, I went back and found it.

You asked if I taught.

The short answer, yes. For free...

The long answer....

I let my certification lapse some years ago, so I can no longer "Certify" someone for their CCW permit. But I do teach, sometimes I head for PGC to do a little shooting and end up instructing newbies more. That's life and my priorities are in order. It happy I am to help folks.

SO....

Anyone who would like basic instruction in shotgunning and lives near Central MD, feel free to contact me. I've got a crazy work schedule with two jobs, but maybe I can find a few hours to give folks Shotgun 101 in person.

Also, anyone with "Serious" facilities near me please contact me. I know there's a group near Fort Meade that shoots "Practical" but I can't seem to get in touch with any.

Thanks...

[PJR]

MacPelto:

I'm a little late in my reply but here's my take on your questions.

The classic English gun is the sxs hammer gun. The sxs layout was more conducive to external hammers. When the hammers became internal the advantage was lost but the tradition of the sxs remained.

As Dave noted, it took John Moses Browning’s development of the Superposed to break through with a design that was comparatively cheaper than the English guns. Next in line was the Remington Model 32, a gun design that lives on today as the Krieghoff K-80. But these were still relatively expensive guns. It was the pump gun and the semi-auto that cut into the sxs popularity because they were less expensive and reliable.

The trend to the o/u started in the late 60's and 70’s when Daniele Perazzi introduced the Perazzi MX8. It was THE gun to have and in many respects still is. Stackbarreled guns further gained in popularity as advanced production techniques brought us the Remington 3200, Winchester 101, Browning Citori, Ruger Red Label, SKB and various models from Beretta. Unlike the Browning Superposed or the Remington 32, these guns were not priced well out of reach for most shooters.

I’ve hunted both sxs and o/u in the field. The standard sxs configuration of straight grip, splinter forearm and double triggers has a lot going for it. My sxs is quicker and more instinctive than an o/u and easier to carry because it’s lighter. I also like the fact that when open the sxs gape is less than an o/u. My back up gun for the field however is a multi-use 20 gauge skeet gun so I'm not wedded to hunting with a sxs. When clay targets are on the line I’m reaching for my o/u.

Dave’s answer to the Savage Fox question is correct. Savage bought the name, cut corners and the guns aren’t in the same league as the earlier versions made by Fox although later production Fox guns sometimes aren’t that great either.

Paul

[PJR]

bukijin

What ammo you use depends on what you are doing and while there are many options, they can be sorted into a few choices.

For targets the standard load is 2-3/4", 3 dram, 1-1/8 ounce #8 or #7-1/2 shot. You can go to lighter loads of one ounce or 2-3/4 dram if the recoil is bothersome. The target load with #7-1/2 shot does double duty for small bird hunting such as ruffed grouse.

For larger birds such as pheasant, I've found 2-3/4", 3-1/4 dram 1-1/4 ounce in #6 to work very well but might go to larger shot later in the season when the birds are a little tougher.

I'm not much of a waterfowler but what I have found works for me is #2 non tox in 1-1/2 ounce charge weights for ducks and 3" magnums with heavier shot payloads for geese.

For large game hunting with a shotgun I prefer slugs to buckshot but have some 00 buck around for predator control.

I note you are in Australia and I'm not sure whether you use English or American sizing for shot. There are some differences between the two.

These are my basic selections but I'm sure that every participant here has their own choices.

Paul

[Zebulon]

Dave....Thanks again for taking the time to invite and respond to all of us....I have a stack of Shotgun videos that have'nt inspired or informed me nearly as much as searching through your posts here and on TFL. You're a class act Dave...Thank you.....Zebulon

[Dave McCracken]

Aw, shucks....

You're very welcome. Please pay it forward. When you can, teach someone.

[NewShooter78]

Ok...extreme nubie question, but since the only bad question is the one not asked...
If a box of shells doesn't say its steel shot (or any other metal besides lead), should one just assume that its lead? Specifically the cheap boxes of shot shells that wal-mart sells like the Winchester Universal.

[tripleevil]

Another novice here - looking for some advice from the elders...

I started experimenting with slugs on my 1187 Skeet, just got a 21" barrel with a rifled choke. I've been having trouble with slugs occasionally not firing - the primer is dented but no bang. Tried Remington, Winchester, Brenneke all the same problem.

Never had a problem with target loads. It seems that with the 21" barrel, the hammer doesn't strike the pin as hard but I could be imagining this. Is my spring too weak? Thanks

[MacPelto]

Yes - muchas gracias to all of those who help us out here!

And, yep, those cheap 'promo' loads, I believe they're called, are lead.
Everything else costs more!

[Dave McCracken]

78, ALL non toxic shot, including tungsten, nickel, iron, bismuth and combinations of these, is marked as such.

Lead shot is usually an alloy of lead, mostly with antimony. Premium shot runs up to 6% antimony, which costs more than lead. Pure lead can deform if looked at hard, the antimony hardens the alloy, keeping it rounder and more likely to A, stay in the pattern and B, retain more energy to transfer to the target.

Promo loads often have shot ranging from pure to 3%. Little has 6%, but the Federal Valu packs may come close.

For those of scientific bent,Brister devised a rough test. Use needlenose pliers to squeeze a pellet and note how much pressure it takes. Squeeze another of same size but other make. Thus one can compare relative hardness.

Tripeevil, see if the target loads work out of that short barrel as far as firing goes. Also check to see if the barrel is on tightly. Adding head space can affect ignition.

Mac, glad to help....

[Moparmike]

Do you have a diagram of exactly where the butt should go on the shoulder? I once shot my SG and thought after I shot it that it was too high and woud fly over my shoulder. However, the subsequent shots hit my (tender) upper bicep which smarts something awful.

Any ideas (besides shoot where you had it b4:p )?

[Dave McCracken]

No diagram, Mike, but maybe I can 'splain it.

First, stand so you're facing where you're going to break the target. Take a step with your forward foot as if you're walking to the target, but stop and MAINTAIN that lean as you bring up the shotgun to your face. Most folks use a stance too sideways for best work, and the butt tends to end up out on the upper arm. This WILL hurt,, and you'll also miss.

The heel of the stock should be about even with the top of the shoulder.

Mount the thing and as you bring it up to your face, bring up your firing side elbow until your arm is parallel to the ground. This makes the "Cup" where the butt goes. It's a little inside the joint itself, using the swell of the joint as an index for the outside edge of the pad to go. Note you need the same facial pressure and placement each time.

This is where dry mounting at home pays big dividends. Work on getting it right first, then getting it right and doing so smoothly, then the above and a little faster. Trust me, this will help immensely. 25 reps each day will do more good for your shooting than 25 shells will.

HTH....

[NewShooter78]

So does that mean that you shouldn't keep the butt of the stock against your shoulder when you fire. Just a little confused. I finally got to fire my Moss 590 today, and shoulder was a little fatigued, but not hurting.

Another question. Should one practice firing from the hip for HD purposes? I know that if you're going to grab the shotty for HD, then you probably won't have much time to bring up muzzle to aim. I'm particularly interested in this because I now live in an apartment, and am wanting to have an automatic response if the need ever arise.

[Dave McCracken]

The butt should be held firmly against you, but when we say shoulder we're actually talking about the place I mentioned. A few folks actually mount on the joint, but it's not recommended.

I'm about to write a thread on PG only shotguns and hip shooting. As for HD purposes, any crisis occurring past contact distance will see my HD 870 used from the shoulder.

HTH...

[NewShooter78]

Dave,
Read your post on PGO shotguns. Good article, and I remember one similar to it back on TFL. But here's a question sort of in the same vein. What is your opinion on PG full lenght stocks? I will be bringing my shotty with me to the range everytime I go from now on, so as to become a more efficient shotgunner. It's totally different from what I'm used to, so I really need the range time.

I think that I'll be adding a better but pad on my Mossberg though. My shoulder doesn't hurt, but it shure is red ;) . I guess that's to be expected from a new shotgun shooter though. And since I fixed a little problem with my tube spring, I shouldn't have any feeding problems again. I don't know how it happend but the spring in the tube bent over on itself, and wasn't applying pressure to the shells, and they weren't dropping properly on the elevator ( can't remember the proper term at the moment and don't feel like grabbing my manual).

Thanks for all the good advice. Maybe this should be a topic to float on here?

[Dave McCracken]

78, I see little downside to PG equipped stocks, except on Mossbergs and any others with tang safety systems. I also see very little advantage.

A good pad will help, good form will help more. As you get into shotgunning, your form will improve. Meantime, use the lightest loads you can find.

Not sure about floating, don't want the top of the forum too cluttered...

[rebbryan]

is dry firing okay on the 870?

what are snap caps?

870 stock didn't come w/ a sling stud. i know you can buy ones w/, but can you drill one? if so, what do i use?

[rebbryan]

also, what's all this plated and unplated stuff? and what's the difference in the metals used?

[Dave McCracken]

Reb, a few decades ago conventional wisdom said that dry firing 870s in very cold conditions could result in the firing pin breaking. I saw it happen on ONE 870 way back. Never had it happen to me.

Snap caps are inert devices resembling shotgun shells, but with a soft material in place of the primer to take the force of the firing pin and cushion it. Some have a little spring loaded button there, others use a medium soft plastic. The spring loaded ones are better.

I guess you're talking about plated shot. Some shot has a very thin coating of material other than lead, copper and nickel for instance. This is supposed to aid lubricity of the load as the shot travels through the bore and choke, and the plating in theory keep the shot rounder.

I've installed a couple sling studs, and messed up a nice stock trying to. Brownell's sells a jig that prevents the drill from slipping. Use a drill bit that's the same size of the body of the screw part of the studd, not the size of the threads.

HTH...

[USAFA]

Okay, I'll admit that I hadn't thought much about my SG until I started reading this board. I have an old 870 riot gun, 20"bbl, no choke kept in the closet with the magazine full and the chamber empty.
I've been thinking about taking up some form of clay shooting (based on the BA/UU/R principle) but am an absolute novice and don't know anyone at this base who shoots SG. So I guess my questions are:

1) What's the diference in the clay sports? Which would you recomend for a newbie?

2) How much do I need to change the setup of my 870? I'm guessing I need a longer barrel, but would it be better to buy a new barrel and swap it out before I go to the range or should I just think about getting another 870?

3) Since the consensus is that money is better spent on ammo than on gadgets, what drills or excercises could I be doing with my current setup that would help me develop my skills.

Thanks for your help

[sm]

Open cyl is going to best for closer in targets such as in Skeet. From shooting pad to center stake is 21 yds. Dove/quail loads will be fine. Skeet consists of a 7 shooting stations in a semi circle. The trap house on left is high, one on the left is low. Singles and doubles are thrown. Station 8 is in the middle of two houses.

I would bet after hunting season you could pick up an Express 870 used one season for the same monies as a bbl. Then again check the paper ...some one may have succumbed to the latest greatest new gun fever and needs the monies...then there are those needing monies going into the holidays.

Be patient and carry cash. Having one SG is good, Having a 2nd one like it is gooder:)

[Dave McCracken]

USAFA, in addition to what 73 said, here's a couple things...

Chokeless shotguns are useful within 25 yards or so. Besides skeet, many 5 stand and Sporting Clays shots occur within that range. So does the typical COF at Practical matches.

Trap demands mo' choke. If you pick up another barrel or complete 870 with a longer, choked barrel you can shoot trap, a good place to start. Skeet's good too, but trap's shallower angles for most shots and precision shooting seems to be better for newbies.

As for setting up your 870, basically it consists of getting the fit right for you and making sure the trigger is clean and fairly light, around 3.5-4 lbs.

Practice mounting your 870 frequently, a few hundred dry mounts every week help more than you can believe.

Jerry Meyer's "Clay Target Handbook" gives a great overview of the clay sports and has much good input.

Now, BA/UU/R and have fun.

HTH...

[Bob F.]

Dave, you mentioned forcing cones on 2 of your built up 870's. At in-house range wouldn't a cyclinder bore or "hacksaw" choke be fine? I would think a 12" pattern at the target would be about optimum regardless of shot size-- small enough to assure a high percentage of shot on target and big enough to assure a hit (in as much as a hit can be assured!). But what do I know? Full choke 28" is impressive with 00 at 25 yds!
I'm currentl in the market for a HD shotgun, preferrably an 870.

[Dave McCracken]

Bob, I do like the long cones, but it's something to do later.

In house,choke is meaningless.

I'd prefer a 73 caliber hole right at center mass, but a pattern up to 15" can be quite effective.

Why 15"? Measure the distance across your torso just below the shoulders.

[Bob F.]

Jump over and see my "Charles Daly HD?" thread. This takes up where that left off. Might also check the one re $160 870's.

Went shotgun shopping today. Nary a used 870 in this section of world. Dealer said he occassionally got one, but rarely had it more than a day or 2. Found some Mossy's and even an Ithica and a Model 12. Found a new 870 18" (I assume) w/ factory extended mag and black syn stock--$325.
Another Shop had a 18" w/ regular mag, black syn stock and Hi-viz rifle sights, which I didn't like for $329.

Local trading paper has a 870 Wingmaster 30" Full choke for $265. Could be tempting! Gonna wait til the new paper comes out Wed and BUY SOMETHING!! Actually have the wife's blessing on a new 870, hhmmm, wonder what she bought?

[Dave McCracken]

Bob, whatever she bought, it's worth it.

I'd be tempted to pick up that older 870 for $265, and call around for a used 18" riot barrel.Often those shops handling police style stuff have leftovers from barrel upgrades.

DML,who posts here, had some for sale last year for $50, IIRC.

HTH...