10m zero for a m-14


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infantryman21
March 15, 2006, 11:38 AM
Im currently in the military and deployed the ranges we have are only for 10meters im trying to zero my m-14 at 10m so im good out to at least 300m is there any way this can be done. The only target i found was for a 25meter zero that was only good out to 250m but the probably is once again we only have a 10m range please help

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rangerruck
March 15, 2006, 11:56 AM
it would be my guess, that if you were slightly lower to no more than 1/2inch lower than that target at 10 meters, that you will be on out to 300. because the bullet path is about 1/2 inch to an inch below you line of site, you are only giving it 10 meters to come up and meet your eyesight line. that is a pretty quick and steep angle. that is why im guessing slightly below the target zero.

gearbox
March 15, 2006, 02:39 PM
No offense to you, but shouldn't your fearless leaders be giving you the opportunity to sight in your arms? I may not be too keen on what is going on over there, but I feel that practice and familiarity can only be a good thing.

Either way, best of luck!

jobu07
March 15, 2006, 02:43 PM
I'm not pointing fingers or making accusations but i'm just genuinely curious of what your M.O.S. that you were issued an M-14. Lucky guy!

Langenator
March 15, 2006, 03:46 PM
I'm guessing his handle should be an indicator of his MOS. Infantry is 11 series, mostly 11B (also available: C for mortars, M for mechanized, Z for 1SGs and SGM/CSMs).

It sounds like he got to where his unit will be operating, either in Iraq or Afghanistan, and got issued an M14 there. And the only range available to zero it on is a 10m range, possibly a pistol range or some such that used to belong to the Saddam regime.

AirForceShooter
March 15, 2006, 04:49 PM
shoulda , woulda, coulda.
You work with what you have.
The 1/2 inch up should do it.

AFS

Dave P
March 15, 2006, 05:17 PM
I guess that the sights are .8" above bore.

Quikload says at 30 yrds you will be 1.8" high, when zeroed for 300 yards.

GunnySkox
March 15, 2006, 05:47 PM
Dave P,

Does the program you mentioned do meters as well? If so, it'd probably be better/more helpful to post/use ranges in meters, as those're the ranges Infantryman needs.

~GnSx
Not down on anybody, just trying to be helpful

Bartholomew Roberts
March 15, 2006, 06:37 PM
If so, it'd probably be better/more helpful to post/use ranges in meters, as those're the ranges Infantryman needs.

100M = 109yds, so 10M =10.9yds.

For all practical purposes you can use yards the same as meters under 100yds because even the finest shooters in the world aren't going to be able to tell the difference between a gun sighted in at 10M and a gun sighted in at 10yds.

30Cal
March 15, 2006, 07:55 PM
Sight height = 1.09"
M80 Vel = 2750fps
M80 BC = 0.39
M80 bullet weight = 147grs

For a 200yd zero, you want the bullet to hit 0.5" below point of aim at 10m. For a 300yd zero, that would be .25" low at 10m. The bullet will cross above the line of sight at around 20yds.

At 10m, one click is worth 0.1"

This is all out the window if the rifle is scoped of course.

Ty

Turk
March 15, 2006, 10:09 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm not aware of any slots (MOS) being issued M-14 currently? Even in 68-69 in RVN the only troops being issued 14's were combat engineers and some support units.

Turk

Remember to pray for our troops.

asknight
March 16, 2006, 03:55 AM
Turk, I've read a few reports that some squads are issuing their Designated Marksmen M-14's. I can't confirm this, as all of the "reports" that I read were on the internet. :)

infantryman21
March 16, 2006, 08:35 AM
MY FEARLESS LEADERS ARE NOT THAT SMART AND I HAVE TO FIND OUT ON MY OWN. ALSO IM A 11B INFANTRY AND IM A DESIGNATED MARKSMAN THE PROBABLY IS THE UNIT IS NOT WELL EQUIPED SO I HAVE TO PURCHASE MY OWN EQUIPMENT. AND YES THE M-14 IS A BEAUTIFUL WEAPON.

Northwet
March 16, 2006, 09:02 AM
You're not looking for a 300 meter zero with a M-14.
I carried one in basic training (circa 1969) and the 25 meter sighting in was one inch high at that range.
At an estimated (remember you're using eyeballs, not a range meter in combat) 300 yards you aim for the head with impact in the chest area of a man-sized target. For closer ranges it was center of chest.
The M-14 is a fine and accurate rifle; I just didn't enjoy running in formation holding that heavy rifle above my head.
To clean it, we would strip field strip it and take the barrel/receiver into a hot shower, then dry and oil generously.
North"wet"

Steve Smith
March 16, 2006, 09:24 AM
IM A DESIGNATED MARKSMAN

Really? And you can't calculate your come-ups?

infantryman21
March 16, 2006, 09:29 AM
YES A MARKSMAN'S AND I HAVE CALCULATED IT BEFORE I ASKED BUT SENSE I HAVE NOT BEEN TO SNIPER SCHOOL YET IM ON MY OWN FOR LEARNING ABOUT THE M-14. AND IF THE ARMY TOOK TIME TO ACTUALLY PROPERLY TRAIN PEOPLE ON HOW TO USE DIFFERENT WEAPONS INSTEAD OF SAYING HERE THIS IS YOUR NEW WEAPON FIGURE IT OUT.

Dave P
March 16, 2006, 09:44 AM
Sight height = 1.09"
M80 Vel = 2750fps
M80 BC = 0.39
M80 bullet weight = 147grs

... For a 300yd zero, that would be .25" low at 10m. The bullet will cross above the line of sight at around 20yds.

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Ty, using your numbers, our calculators still don't agree - who is right? Mine says the bullet will cross (as the bullet is heading up above the line of sight) at 12 yrds., and at 30 yrds, it is 1.6" above LOS. It peaks at about 178 yards, when it is 7.8" above LOS.

I can't understand your sentence above. Pls double check, just for shucks and grins.

Dave

ScottsGT
March 16, 2006, 10:02 AM
AND IF THE ARMY TOOK TIME TO ACTUALLY PROPERLY TRAIN PEOPLE ON HOW TO USE DIFFERENT WEAPONS INSTEAD OF SAYING HERE THIS IS YOUR NEW WEAPON FIGURE IT OUT.

Could this possably be because the M-14 was in storage for so long that know one knows how to train anyone to use it? This takes us back to another good reason to support the CMP. They just have to focus on selling/training to a younger generation. Not us old farts wanting to collect Garands. :D

Turk
March 16, 2006, 10:20 AM
Are you telling me your squad leader, Platoon Sarg. or Platoon Leader have no idea on how to use the 14? or that they are not willing to get this information and or training. If that's the case we'd better pack up and come home. What unit are you in?

Turk


Remember to pray for our troops.

Hobie
March 16, 2006, 10:25 AM
I'm afraid this smells to high heaven. The language and equipment description is questionable. Odds are that the infantry units get to zero their M16s on a 25 meter range. If there is room for a 10M range there's room for 25M as the safety fan will be enforced. I know of absolutely NO 10M ranges on US posts with resident infantry units as all have 25M zero ranges. Even many/most/all pistol ranges go to 50M.

Turk
March 16, 2006, 10:50 AM
Hobie,

Your post: I'm afraid this smells to high heaven.


You think :)

Turk

Remember to pray for our troops.

wgungho
March 16, 2006, 10:52 AM
I'm an old ex-marine, and I originally qualified with an M-14 at Paris Island. To battle sight the rifle, we fired on a 300" range, which gave us our 300 yard "battle sights". Bullet rise at 300" in the trajectory equated with bullet drop at 300 yards. Even with the rifle battle sighted, you need to adjust the sights to be perfect. Ballistic cards will put you close at longer ranges.
I carried a 14 for a year and a half in Southeast Asia, and it never let me down-even once!
If you think about the time line since the 16 became the issue rifle, there'd be darn few folks who ever handled the 14 still in active service. The folks who use them over at SOCOM probably don't train boots. They would have to be in their mid or late fifties.
As desiginated marksman, I'd suggest a basic 4x scope to go with the 14. If you and rifle are in decent shape, you can hit the black at 600 yards all day long. Have someone at home send you some match ammo. Federal 168 grain would be nice.

riverdog
March 16, 2006, 11:04 AM
Here's a Ballistic Calculator (http://www.biggameinfo.com/BalCalc.aspx) that you can try. It's in yards but it should get you in the ballpark. Using 2700 FPS at the muzzle and 1.5" sight height since you're using a scope, I got a 10 yard POI 0.6" below POA. To get that I used a 150 gr .308 bullet at 2700 FPS with a BC of .338.

Good luck. Will the bullet have even stabilized at 10 yards? I'd be testing that zero in the field first opportunity.

Red Tornado
March 16, 2006, 11:20 AM
...this smells to high heaven.

I'm with Turk and Hobie on this one. It's a fun exercise, I guess, but what?!?

Turk asked,
What unit are you in?

No disrespect meant, but also, what army? I hope we're not sending designated marksmen in with no idea of where they're shooting.:eek: If we are, maybe we should just pack up.
RT

Bwana John
March 16, 2006, 11:26 AM
10 meters, hmmm... :scrutiny:

I would suggest fixing bayonets! :neener:

wgungho
March 16, 2006, 11:34 AM
The truth of the matter is that we're sending our boys and girls in harm's way with damn little expertise. I live in a military area (Tidewater, Virginia), frequent the VA hospital, and personally know more than a few returnees, from both the hills and the sand box. Budgets don't allow much in way of weapons live fire, and often troops are given weapons in the field that they've NEVER handled before. The situation is changing now, but if a troop wanted a set of first class body armor, he had to buy it himself. I know marines who bought their own weapons, as in .308, becasue their issue 16s didn't cut it at long range. Ask anyone with rank in a reserve unit about their training budgets. You're liable to see tears. Reserve units here in Virginia (I don't know about elsewhere) are ofter REQUIRED to leave behind their equiptment for incoming units, with no planned replacement. And they WILL be going back.

Langenator
March 16, 2006, 02:08 PM
Turk-in case you missed it, the man stated that he's deployed. As in downrange, in either Iraq or Afghanistan.

To the best of my knowledge, most if not all of the M14s currently available, at least in the Army, are with units in theater. They get handed off to new units rotating into theater when the old unit leaves, just like the Humvees and a bunch of other equipment. So guys don't get a chance to train with them before they deploy. And since the M14 was phased out over 30 years ago, there's little to no institutional experience left, outside of SF.

The SDM position isn't currently allocated much special training. It just means, mostly, that they take the best shooter in each squad and give him some shiny optics (like an ACOG) for his M4/M16. And remember, a 5.56 ACOG isn't the same as a 7.62 one.

Now, in my previous tour at Ft Lewis, my unit was lucky, in that we had a good working relationship with some guys at 1st SF Group, and we got to send our snipers and SDMs out to do training with them. Helped out a bunch when the unit got sent to Iraq (Nov '03-Nov '04).

Turk
March 16, 2006, 03:48 PM
Langenator,

It's hard for me to believe that a squad leader, platoon sarg, platoon leader or company commander would issue to their troops weapons and basically say figure out how to use them and if that is the case like I said in an early post if we need to pack up and go home.


By the way I do understand what deployed means and I also understand a leaders duty to his men in combat.

Turk
173rd Abn. Bdge (sep)
RVN 68-69

Grump
March 16, 2006, 03:50 PM
Will the bullet have even stabilized at 10 yards?:neener:

GIVE ME A BREAK!!! AND YES, I _KNOW_ MY CAPS LOCK IS ON...ON PURPOSE!!:cuss:

Go back and read some real science on bullet precession and bullet stability. The "settling in" you *might* be alluding to is still measured in .001s of an inch at 10 yards AND 10 meters.

Heck, even UNSTABLE bullets are still flying straight at 10 yards.:rolleyes:

We need more data--the critical element is the centerline of the scope above the bore. Measure to the nearest .10 of an inch (and tell us if it is - or + to your figure) from the middle of the scope to the fattest part of the receiver ring (eyeball to the chamber to make sure).

I've seen one scoped '14 that had 2.8 inches scope line above bore line. That will really affect the calculations, guys 'n gals!

Our troop needs to tell us the sight heighth. We *could* guess if he tells us the scope mount...

AZgunstudent
March 16, 2006, 04:23 PM
Wow, some of you guys are pretty harsh. I'm in the National Guard, and I know for a fact that guys get deployed with poor training all the time. As long as the unit is "validated," off they go.

A recruiter I know got deployed even though he was utterly unable to qualify with the M9, which he would be carrying in Iraq (in addition to an M16A2). Another young soldier I know "qualified" with the M9 by firing a .22. I am not at all surprised that a DM was given a rifle with little training on how to use it, especially in an area considered esoteric (yes, sight adjustment is a scary thing to the Army) by military personnel.

For the doubting Thomases in our midst, my personal friend SPC Ryan Kyler (D Co 1/180 SECFOR) is also using a scoped M14 in Iraq as I type this, though I don't have a picture of him. However, I do not doubt in the least that the vast, vast majority of squad/platoon leaders in the Army have no idea how to run an M14. Most of them don't even remember the M16A1, and some have probably never even used an M16A2. These are guys in their twenties, who probably joined the Army only a few years ago.

I always get the impression from threads like this that non-military people think Army small arms training is far more extensive and intense than it actually is.

riverdog
March 16, 2006, 04:33 PM
A simple "yes" would have been fine. Nothing is gained by being a ????????.

With the link to the Ballistic Calculator (http://www.biggameinfo.com/BalCalc.aspx) provided he should be able to figure it out for himself.

30Cal
March 17, 2006, 01:13 PM
Sight height = 1.09"
M80 Vel = 2750fps
M80 BC = 0.39
M80 bullet weight = 147grs

... For a 300yd zero, that would be .25" low at 10m. The bullet will cross above the line of sight at around 20yds.

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Ty, using your numbers, our calculators still don't agree - who is right? Mine says the bullet will cross (as the bullet is heading up above the line of sight) at 12 yrds., and at 30 yrds, it is 1.6" above LOS. It peaks at about 178 yards, when it is 7.8" above LOS.

I can't understand your sentence above. Pls double check, just for shucks and grins.

Dave

Dave, I re-ran my numbers (using Handloads.com calculator and default environmental conditions) and you are 100% correct. Honestly, the 20yds figure I grabbed was a interpolation between a 200yd and a 300yd zero--the point I was trying to get across was that regardless of which of those ranges you zero at, the bullet at 10m will still be below the line of sight.

At 10m, the trajectory is very sensitive to sight height and zero range. Zero'ing at 10m is not much better than just boresighting the rifle at 10-20yds.

226
March 17, 2006, 01:20 PM
How do I sight-in my M1 Garand or M1A/M14-type rifle? (http://www.fulton-armory.com/sighting_in.htm)

M14 zero target (http://www.notamd.com/misc/m1a.pdf)


.

ScottsGT
March 17, 2006, 05:19 PM
I always get the impression from threads like this that non-military people think Army small arms training is far more extensive and intense than it actually is.


Aww, come on now, we know it is. I just saw Gary Cooper in Sgt. York two weeks ago. We see what kind of traning you guys get in the movies. :neener:
I live across I-20 from Ft. Jackson, and used to be able to drive all over the base before 9/11. Would watch recruits walking around with the M-16 with the red blank adaptor on them all the time. I think they only issued them arms so they would get used to carrying one, not actually using it.

Steve Smith
March 18, 2006, 08:02 AM
If you are real:
Start with your iron sights as they will be there when you drop your rifle on your scope and ruin it. I have been in Iraq and I know you guys slap a $29 Tasco or Bushnell on a rifle and call it good so do yourself a favor and sight in your irons first. Put them 1/2" below POA at 10M and if you ever get a chance test it at 300. A 300 yard zero will get you a solid hit from 0-400 when you aim at the center of an enemy's chest. If you can't dope wind don't shoot past 300 or you'll be wasting ammo...don't fool yourself into thinking you can do it. Wind moves a bullet way more than you think.

Now, set your scope up to similar aim points and be sure you know how to get that POS off when you really need to hit something.

Of all the M14 guys I saw in the desert, only a handfull had scopes attached and you could tell that those guys knew everything about their rifles and scopes and they were cared for very differently than the plethora of M16s there. They of course had nice bedding work and very nice scopes to match but these guys were trained and dealdy...and serious. The average M14 shooter did not have a scope and it was a rack grade and they were left with iron sights.

infantryman21
March 19, 2006, 06:13 AM
I AM I AVID DEER HUNTER TO START WITH AND DON'T BUY ANTHING FOR A RIFEL OR SHOTGUN CHEAP MY DAD GOT ME A TACTICAL SCOPE BY EAGEL IS ANYONE HAS A COMMENT ON IF ITS GOOD OR NOT LET ME KNOW ITS A LIGHTED RETICEL AND ITS 6-24X50 OR 40 I THINK AND A NICE MOUNT SO IT WASN'T CHEAP LIKE A TASCO MODEL WITCH BLOWS. I ALSO HAVE ALL THE BALLISTICS CHARTS FOR THE M118 LONG RANGE CARTRIDGE WITCH I WILL BE SHOOTING AND DUE TO TERRAIN AND SOP'S I WILL NOT ENGAGE ANYTHING PAST 500m PROBABLY. ALSO SOME UNITS WILL ACTUALY ORDER SCOPES FOR SOLDIERS AND EVERYTHING THEY NEED AND SEND THEM TO SCHOOL BUT WHERE IM AT IT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. I HAVE IT SET UP AS MUCH AS I FEEL LIKE PAYING OUT OF POCKET DUE TO THE UNIT NOT ORDERING THE PROPER EQUIPMENT SO I HAVE TO PAY OUT OF MY OWN PAY CHECK SO I DONT FEEL LIKE SPENDING A SMALL FORTUNE. I WILL ATACH PICTURES AT THE END OF THE MONTH WHEN I GET ALL MY STUFF PUT ON.

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