GLTB Shooters! Time to plan for PRIDE

[JJpdxpinkpistols]

Howdy, all!

for those who couldn't guess, I am a member of PDX Pink Pistols and we are getting ready for Pride (June 18th here in the City of Roses).

We are intending to have a table, and possibly march in the parade.

This thread is here to discuss preparations for the various Pride gatherings around the (world???) and specifically to discuss the various tactics folks are using to get themselves into the celebrations, and bypass any Anti sentiment that they may have encountered.

Please get as technical as you wish (city code, state law, 2a), but we MUST keep this civil. It is intended as a test case for inclusion of 2a and RKBA folks in various civic events and should have applications across the lines of sexual orientation for those who wish to learn from them.

After I get my initial replies from the City of Portland, I will begin posting our saga and our dilemmas. Expect volumes from me in short order.

Please note that this is NOT THE PLACE to discuss your approval or disapproval of anyone's sexual orientation. for our purposes here, it is irrelevant, and violates the agreement. I am quite sure you are welcome to do so on APS.

So get planning folks. We got a Parade comin' up!

[461]

Have you in the past encountered resistance from the various pride event organizers? I'm assuming you're not planning on openly armed marchers or anything like that, correct? Knowing it would be hard to find one with the guts for it, but how about a pride week shoot at a local range? Good luck.

[JJpdxpinkpistols]

Well…

First off, let me state that I am in Portland, Oregon. This will be the first time the PinkPistols have marched in the Pride Parade, and given the resistance some other state’s Pride committees have given the PP chapters marching (San Fran wouldn’t even let folks wear empty holsters…Ohio wouldn’t even let them IN the parade and demanded they be arrested on sight), we believe that this may be a “one trick pony”. In other words, they will most likely ban us after this appearance.

Therefore our strategy is to approach the city, get recognition as a Civil Organization, and *then* approach the Pride committee and request to march.

*IF* the city deems us a qualified “Civil Organization” we should be allowed to march with our arms at the side. That is the Goal. We are willing to march with nothing, or water-pistols in our holsters, but our preference is to be armed and ready.

Now some background:

We have some vagaries both in state law and in city ordinance when it comes to open carry.

The Consitution of the State of Oregon states:
Section 27. Right to bear arms; military subordinate to civil power. The people shall have the right to bear arms for the defence [sic] of themselves, and the State, but the Military shall be kept in strict subordination to the civil power[.]

Fairly clear, really.

ORS codes at the state level dictate the following:

166.173 Authority of city or county to regulate possession of loaded firearms in public places. (1) A city or county may adopt ordinances to regulate, restrict or prohibit the possession of loaded firearms in public places as defined in ORS 161.015.
<snip>
(c) A person licensed to carry a concealed handgun.
<snip>

166.260 Persons not affected by ORS 166.250. (1) ORS 166.250 does not apply to or affect:
<snip>
(f) Duly authorized military or civil organizations while parading, or the members thereof when going to and from the places of meeting of their organization.
<snip>
(h) A person who is licensed under ORS 166.291 and 166.292 to carry a concealed handgun.

Now, the NEXT section is what we are REALLY working with, and its kinda long, so bear with me:

14A.60.010 Possession of a Loaded Firearm in a Public Place. - Printable Version
A. It is unlawful for any person to knowingly possess or carry a firearm, in or upon a public place, including while in a vehicle in a public place, recklessly having failed to remove all the ammunition from the firearm.
B. It is unlawful for any person to knowingly possess or carry a firearm and that firearm’s clip or magazine, in or upon a public place, including while in a vehicle in a public place, recklessly having failed to remove all the ammunition from the clip or magazine.
C. The following are exceptions and constitute affirmative defenses to a violation of this Section:
<snip—LEO exemptions>
3. A person licensed to carry a concealed handgun.
<snip>
9. Duly authorized military or civil organizations while parading, or their members when going to and from the places of meeting of their organization.
<snip>
11. Persons travelling to and from an established target range, whether public or private, for the purpose of practicing shooting targets at the target ranges.
<snip>
13. A person authorized by permit of the Chief of Police to possess a loaded firearm, clip, or magazine in a public place in the City of Portland.
<bank guards—snip>
D. It is unlawful for any person who possesses a firearm, clip or magazine in or upon a public place, or while in a vehicle in a public place, to refuse to permit a police officer to inspect that firearm after the police officer has identified him or herself as a police officer. This Section does not apply to law enforcement officers or members of the military in the performance of official duties, nor persons licensed to carry a concealed handgun or persons authorized to possess a loaded firearm, clip or magazine while in or on a public building or court facility.
Still with me?

Ok…

So we have taken motions to become a “duly authorized Civil Organization” for the purposes of Parading.

Failing that, I will pay a visit to the Chief and see what I can get done. I haven’t ever met the feller, but my wife has many, many times, and we should be able to get some action.

We could always carry concealed (as you can see from the above), but honestly, where is the fun in that??!?!?!

Ironically, I am personally recommending that folks NOT openly carry at the rally ground after the parade. While the parade is big, the turnout is huge (15-20k people) and about 6-8 thousand people cram into the “rally” ground after the parade. Its about the size of 2 football fields, and it gets very, very very crowded with folks all over the place, and I have a bit of a fear regarding retention in the environment, espectially after folks see what we have on-hand (or is it on-hip?)

Now…the pratfalls:

1. The PrideNW folks could say NO. No to us marching, no to us showing up.
2. The Portland Police Bureau could say no to recognizing us as a “Civil organization”
And then we have the BIGGIE:

Portland has, in the past, cordoned off chunks of downtown for certain events, hired the administration of such events out to contractors and then enforced “no *anything* zones”, searching bags, wanding folks and so on. However, they have required explicit approval from the city council to do so…they did it for a NYE event at y2k, citing terrorism concerns. I don’t believe that is will happen, but it is always a possibility.

I am currently waiting for the city to get back to us…if I haven’t heard by Monday, I will contact them again. We have a liase through the Sexual Minority Roundtable (a group that works on safety issues with targeted minority communities.)

[Nitrogen]

You'd think a group of people that strive for acceptance in a community that doesn't seem to understand them wouldn't be so quick to judge, but hey.

Good luck. I hope your fellows in OR are more accepting.

I met a fellow (I think?) from Houston who was up here in Dallas shooting with friends. You'd think a group of people persecuted as much as gays are would be a natural magnet for RKBA, but unfortunately it's not the case. :confused:

One of my favorite quotes from one of their websites:

"Gun control is the theory that Matthew Shepherd hanging from a fence post in Wyoming is morally superior to Matthew Shepherd explaining to the local sheriff how his attackers got those fatal bullet wounds."


Can't disagree with that.
Good luck, and be sure and let us know how it goes.

[461]

I whole heartedly support you in your efforts first of all, but I have doubts as to the city of Portland allowing you to openly carry in a parade or public celebration. While I'm not personally against open carry and would welcome a world in which it were a normal mode of dress, I can see strong oposition from officials on a public safety standpoint. Hopefully the world is past the point of this being an explosive political event but I think a police Chief would have to err on the side of caution when the public safety is at stake.

My personal thoughts would be toy rifles and T-shirts proclaiming the "Pink Pistols Shooting club" or something that leaves no doubt as to what you are into.

Gotta run but I'll check in later. Luck to all.

Edited for grammar and spelling.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

You will have to give us an after action report to let us know how it went for you. I'm sure others might be able to learn something if you can document the process and the events you encounter.

[JJpdxpinkpistols]

Well, we heard from the representative from the City of Portland.

Again, our tack has been to try and go through the City to get a certification or recognition as a "Civil Organization" for the purposes of parading with arms.

Our best bet at getting through to the City, and the Portland Police Bureau is through the Sexual Minorities Roundtable leaders. These are folks who's job it is to work with groups like ours.

I heard back from one of the city appointed chairmen. He stated tht he was unable to help us and referred us to another city appointed chair, this gentleman also being a PPB Assistant Chief. I have written him and we are pursuing things further with them.

In light of the unresponsive nature of the City we are proceeding with our registration of table, and place in the Parade lineup. We were waiting for the city to respond...but that seems to be taking too long.

Our expectation is that we will be rejected in short order by PrideNW, but we are waiting to see just what happens. At that point, we have 2 other plans...plan A: release info to the press and push the issue, and Plan B. Plan B isn't ready for prime-time yet, but we are working on it.

I will keep y'all posted.

[GAC]

Good luck in getting into the parade and marching while carrying. But, from what I hear about Portland you'll need the luck.

That said, your plan sounds solid. Gaining entry into the parade sounds like a tough haul. If you can get your foot in the door and march with only banners and t-shirts that's a darn good start.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Good luck and please be sure to update us periodically. I'm sure others would find the information useful.

[Car Knocker]

I've seen people riding horses and dressed as cowboys & cowgirls with revolvers in fancy gunbelts and holsters in many parades. Also seen plenty of mountain-man types carrying blackpowder rifles with BP pistols tucked into their sashes in parades. Seems to me that if the powers-that-be allow certain groups to carry firearms in a parade, they have to allow other groups to carry also. :D

[MedGrl]

I am realy looking foward to the "Gay Pride Week" at my university (It starts on Monday.) I am straight but my best friend is Gay and aparently Fred Phelps is coming to protest here. Every church in town is coming out in support of the BiGLT organization and the Student Government as well. THe past couple of years the Gay Pride Week events have been tolerated or ignored in general. I find it very satisfying that there is finaly more support/acceptance being shown. And I'm just an ally. We have 5 days of events planned. ANd every day in the student Union there is going to be a "closet Door" that you can sign/leave a note on to show your support and/or signify your coming out.

[RyanM]

I'm not familiar with Oregon laws. What's the definition of a "firearm?" PA's definition of a firearm is any pistol or revolver with barrel length under 15", any rifle with barrel length under 16", any shotgun with barrel length under 18", or any pistol, revolver, rifle, or shotgun with overall length under 26". So non-NFA rifles and shotguns are not "firearms" in PA.

Other than that, the law says "a person licensed to carry a concealed handgun." It does not say that the firearm has to be a concealed handgun in that case. So any members with CCW should be able to carry openly in public, as well.

As a last resort, it looks like it's legal to carry unloaded guns, with a pocket full of loose ammo.

[meinbruder]

I will need to look up the definition of firearm to answer that first question. However, State law allows open carry, anywhere. Some cities have legislated otherwise. One is subject to arrest for open carry, forfeiture of sidearm, and guaranteed a day in court. Even if the judge throws it all out under guise of state law; time, expense, and the aggravation is not always palatable.

So far as I know, Portland does not allow open carry. JJ is working on getting us that option through the City. If we carry concealed, we will be legal but run the risk of confrontation with the Pride organization. At this point, our application to march and have a booth has been presented to the committee but there has been no response or contact from them.

One idiosyncrasy of the law about carrying a firearm seems to be a loophole. If it is not “brandished” or handled in a “threatening” manner, there is no infraction. If the city will back us up on that, I hope to have several members openly armed for the March. One thing the group has not really discussed yet is costume. If I can locate an appropriate set of BDUs, I think my Garand would be a very nice touch on the parade route; and a cartridge belt just doesn’t look right empty. :rolleyes: I suppose the sword bayonet should be left at home. <sigh> I’m thinking Village People, if anyone remembers them.

Mike
Fearless Leader (President)
Portland Pink Pistols

[GAC]

If you have a float you could use a bunch of rifle racks. That wouldn't be brandishing.

If a float is not an option, what about some handcarts like shooters people use when traveling station to station in competitions? Marchers would not actually be carrying the firearms but you would have them there on display.

[meinbruder]

> If a float is not an option, what about some handcarts like shooters people use when traveling station to station in competitions?
> Marchers would not actually be carrying the firearms but you would have them there on display.

I'm not familiar with the cart you mention. I hope to start competition this year and have only seen one three-gun match. The host club appeared to be so paranoid about ND’s that all weapons must be demonstrably un-loaded before moving to the next station and the next weapon is pre-positioned and un-loaded. Cold ranges have their challenges.

A float will be extra as far as registration fees are concerned, we’re trying to keep this on the cheap. :)
Mike


:evil:

[Car Knocker]

Gun carts galore: http://www.cowboyactionshooting.org/links.html2.html

[GAC]

I've seen metal carts that are likely lighter and easier to wheel around than those SASS wooden carts.

The wooden ones look durable though, according to this photo:

http://www.cartrightguncarts.com/images/bigskycart3.jpg

You could also just get a generic handcart/dolly and rig it up.

[Car Knocker]

That cart looks like it would have the capacity to haul a howitzer.

[VacuumJockey]

Perhaps you could march as cowboys and -gals, if that doesn't dilute your message (of course that would require period weapons for best effect). Is hoplophobia a common thing in GLTB circles, or is is just in Oregon?

[RyanM]

I'm going to guess it's mostly regional. Almost all the gay/bi guys I know around here hunt.

Anyway, as another last resort type thing, would it be legal to openly carry replica guns of some kind? Blank-firing prop guns, airsofts, bb guns, something like that? 99% of the non Pink Pistols people would be completely unable to tell the difference, even if you carried ridiculous looking laser pistol props. I remember reading about some people getting the cops called on them for "having a machine gun," because they had a Star Wars stormtrooper rifle in the back of their truck...

[JJpdxpinkpistols]

Well!

What an interest week in the world of Portland law enforcement and parade marching!

First things first: With zero fanfare, we have been allocated our space in the festival grounds. It would appear that the paypal processing was delayed a bit, and the [all volunteer] committee took its time getting things assigned. We will be at booth K-4 on the following map: http://www.pridenw.org/images/siteplan.gif

We do not currently know if we will be in the parade. Positions are held by lottery, so it appears that we will not know until just before the parade day that we will or will not be able to go.

Now, the Portland law enforcement issues: As some of you might be aware, we have some issues with the Chief sending inappropriate emails, and a shakedown of the city by the gal who was the target of said emails. Needless to say, I am getting ZERO response from the Bureau at the moment. The assistant chief I was working with looks to be the most likely replacement for the Chief, so he is a bit busy at the moment.

Which brings us to whether or not we would actually USE the Chief’s exemption:
Internally, we are having a debate on whether or not to be armed. Sure, its our RIGHT, but is it worth antagonizing people? This being liberal Portland, it might be better for our inaugural outing to be unarmed (or rediculiously armed—someone suggested giant pink foam cutouts of guns—and that might be a fun way to represent).

That is a heads up. It *looks* at this point, that we have had zero trouble, other than the delays of volunteer organizations and chaos in the police bureau.

[warriorsociologist]

Good luck gals/guys! Keep us posted.

[RyanM]

Do giant pink foam cutouts of guns with real guns inside. Hidden in plain sight.

I really don't think going unarmed is a good idea. At least have most of the Pink Pistol members carrying concealed, without making a big deal of it. Never know if some nutjob might try gunning down the parade.

[The_Antibubba]

Or if it all falls through and you're denied permission, you could take it to the ridiculous opposite extreme:



Carry signs that say, "I'm unarmed and defenseless! Please don't hurt me!!"
Or "Matthew Shephard may be dead, but at least he didn't try to defend himself with a gun."
(Good for the cross-dressers)" If you attack me, I'll hit you with my purse!"


Play to all the limp-wristed, sissy, effete stereotypes.

Then bring up the rear with a banner: "We are Pink Pistols of Tacoma. We believe armed gays don't get bashed, but the other marchers don't believe in self defense-they'd rather wail and hold candlelight vigils than take responsibility for their own safety." (or something like that)

Maybe Oleg has an image or two he'll let you use.

If you're going to get banned, DO IT BIG!! :D

[atek3]

have fun and keep us posted

[shermacman]

Pretty funny.
I used to live in Hingham, Massachusetts, during the 4th of July parade we had re-enactments of the Civil War with black powder rifles fired every one hundred yards, WWI with .303 Enfields fired every one hundred yards and WWII (although the Garands were not fired).

Then they rolled a real-live Sherman tank down the street. I told my kids that American was the only country in the world where the sight of a military tank on the main street was a sign of freedom.

And they won't let you wear water pistols?!:scrutiny:

[Strings]

Ya know, I think Antibubba came up with a good idea there...

[Lonnie Wilson]

Hello there, it's been a while since I've posted anything Portland Pink Pistols related. Heh. You might actually recognize my name.

Anyway, I might point out that a CHL exempts you from the open carry ban that Portland has set up per ORS 166.173.

Btw, I'm working on a parallel situation with getting Portland Police Bureau's officers to recognize open carry as completely legal with a CHL. Remember, it states "Licensed to carry a concealed handgun". It does not say "Licensed to carry a concealed handgun and is carrying such handgun concealed". The status as a CHL holder is what exempts you from the loaded firearm carry ban that Portland, Beaverton, and Salem has put up per ORS 166.173, not your method of carry.

You can contact me off list for more details.

-Lonnie

[Big Gay Al]

Ok, if open carry is legal, but you're not sure if you'll get hassled for it, you might try carrying concealed, but do so in a way that makes it obvious. Maybe tight T-shirts, so you print. Technically it's still concealed.

Just a thought.

[JJpdxpinkpistols]

Well…we heard from the Portland Police Bureau (PPB). It is very important to note that the PPB is in chaos right now, and a precinct captain was bumped over the assistant chief into the big chair earlier this week. I have been working with one of those assistant chiefs.

JJ: Thanks for your pateince with respect to my response to your issue. I have
reviewed the information and believe that you should take this issue up with the
event organizers at this point, not the police. Obviously, the display or carry of
firearms at such an event does not appear to be in the best of public interests or
safety. I wish you the best with your endeavors.

Thank you,

###name redacted###


It is important to note that we never stated our intention *to* carry, merely that it was our *desire* to carry. Fine, but important distinction.

The assistant then alerted the head of PrideNW. Aaaaaah, drama!

Essentially, we are faced with 2 positions:

1. carry, and be denied entry. The may or may not tie into the work Lonnie is doing, too soon to tell.
2. do not carry, and bring the good word regarding the constitution to the GLTB community.

Our group has reached a general (and I do mean general—by no means unanimous) consensus that it is more important to be there than to NOT be there. Principles are fine and dandy, but none of us currently has the resources to engage in a nice, long battle with the city over this. Further, we believe that it will be easier to accept us carrying after we have done an event or two, and have an established relationship with the PrideNW folks.

I wonder if it would be a good idea to invite some of these folks shooting? All in all, they are hardly adversarial, merely aggressively non-confrontational.

[Lonnie Wilson]

1. carry, and be denied entry. The may or may not tie into the work Lonnie is doing, too soon to tell.

Actually, it's technically not. There are three legal questions here. One is whether or not you are considered a "civic organization". That is something to be decided by the trier of fact after an arrest. Granted, the state has the burden of proof to prove that you were not part of a civic organization. The easiest path is just getting a CHL to be able to open carry in Portland.

The second question is what Portland Police will do to open carriers with CHL's. There has been PLENTY of anecdotal situations of open carriers in Portland harassed, having their CHL threatened to be revoked over open carry, however no one can seem to document it directly, they never bothered filing a complaint, or just let it slide. I am attempting contact with their training division to see if I can reach someone in research and development, the folks responsible for making new rules in regards to law enforcement officer's actions towards citizens, to perhaps put in a "no threatening, no editorializing" rule.

On top of having to deal with City of Portland, we also have to deal with the Portland Business Improvement District folks, specifically, the Clean and Safe people. They are rather infamous among alternative circles for handing out tickets excluding you from the downtown area for the flimsiest reasons. BID's are districts, covered by the preemption statute.

The third question is what rights are given to NW Pride. There was a similar case with the New Years Festival in Portland. Oregon Firearms Education Foundation filed suit, and they lost in the Court of Appeals. I do not know if they appealed to the State Supreme Court or not.

If it's just that Portland gives permits for Pride, that's one thing. It being a city institution is a different story, and subject to the issues brought up in the Starrett v. City of Portland case.

[meinbruder]

Hello Lonnie, you’re right. It has been a while. I’ve only found THR recently and it looks like you’ve been very busy here and elsewhere. I hope you are well.

I’ve closely read both the ORS166 and the corresponding Portland City ordinances. They read very similar and the letter of the law states an exemption for open carry to CHL license holders. As you commented before, oh so long ago over lunch, the sticking point seems to be the “public nuisance and civil disturbance” side of the laws.

Some people will panic at the sight of a weapon and call the police in a state of hysteria; the police will arrive and “arrest” the individual, taking the cause of the panic with them when they leave the arrest scene. Usually the charges are dropped but court costs and lose or suspension of the CHL is a possibility. This isn’t unique to Portland; several similar cases from around the country have made the news. I would also like to see documentation from the City of Portland so if you uncover any let me know.

Hi Al, how are you? :) I will have to double check but IIRC “printing” is a big no-no and in some jurisdictions might get one arrested. An incident from my last place of employment is an example. A customer laid his fanny pack on the parts counter while I accepted payment. In error he handed me his CHL instead of DL, at one point the pack flopped open exposing a pistol and a co-worker turned white. He started taking the man’s license plate number with the intention of calling the police. I bluntly told him to back off and not be a sheeple; his attitude surprised me for a gun owner.

Interestingly, JJ forwarded to me an email exchange from another 2A activist. He suggested that any display of toy weapons might give the impression our group is a prank and some kind of joke. Not the response we want. He also suggested that display of weapons would likely cause panic among the attendees and bring us back to the public nuisance discussion. He thought a simple RKBA message would be the best approach, educate and inform. I plan to lobby the group for just that.

Mike
Portland, OR.
President Portland Pink Pistols



:evil:

[Otherguy Overby]

Cool a parade!

http://easylink.playstream.com/jerryday/Vid-Clips-2-19-2006/doo-dah-parade_003_300.wvx


I'd assume yours would be a bit better organized. :)

[Lonnie Wilson]

Mike,

I'm less concerned about "disturbing the peace" and "incitement of public panic" and more worried about police attitude, intimidation, and threatening.

I will have to double check but IIRC “printing” is a big no-no and in some jurisdictions might get one arrested.

Florida, Texas, Oklahoma, New York, South Carolina, and Arkansas flat out ban open carry, and this is in effect even with a CHL from those states. Pretty rare, no?

[meinbruder]

Really? It seems to me that the Police, as an abstract, are becoming more intimidating and threatening, with more attitude, than at any point in the history of this country. It only takes a minor event to “disturb the peace” or “incite public panic” and cause the call up of a swat team. I should think that any reasonable man would be concerned with maintaining calm in a public venue.

As population densities rise, the open carry of arms will definitely cause people to become alarmed. The majority of people today, under the age of forty, have been taught that there is no right to bear arms and that only criminals have guns. Therefore, the sight of a weapon of any kind is an automatic red flag for anyone with a cell phone.

Of the six states you mention, Florida and New York don’t surprise me in the least about an open carry ban. The other four, as are Oregon and Washington, are in a state of transition. The metro areas are now large enough to dictate the law to the rural portion of the state. If Burdick and Mannix get their way, guns will be banned across Oregon; I’m quite sure Texas, Oklahoma, South Carolina, and Arkansas have legislators working in the same direction.

I agree that change needs to be made to turn back the tide of prejudice against gun owners and that does seem to be happening across the states. The success of the concealed carry movement is evidence of that but I think the alarm caused by the open carry of a firearm in metro areas will escalate for the foreseeable future.

I leave you for the night with two final thoughts for consideration. There are going to be an estimated 100K people over two days to attend the Pride festival and parade, a twelve hour event. I understand the police foot patrols will be unarmed within the venue. Obviously retention is an issue and PPB is aware of that. More than eight thousand people will walk past a given point per hour, which is a huge theft potential. Additionally, a simple misunderstanding could cause a panic and people are still a herd animal; trampling is a danger with the crowd density expected

Mike
Portland, OR.
President Portland Pink Pistols



:evil:

[Lonnie Wilson]

Of the six states you mention, Florida and New York don’t surprise me in the least about an open carry ban. The other four, as are Oregon and Washington, are in a state of transition. The metro areas are now large enough to dictate the law to the rural portion of the state. If Burdick and Mannix get their way, guns will be banned across Oregon; I’m quite sure Texas, Oklahoma, South Carolina, and Arkansas have legislators working in the same direction.

That's a matter of opinion, at least as far as that is concerned. Texas, Oklahoma, South Carolina, and Arkansas are considered quite pro-gun in their own right. The reasoning for banning concealed carry is rather complicated. They will not flip anti-gun anytime in the near future.

As for Oregon and Washington, the answer on that I believe is no. In Washington, we had two years of more gun control passing. We even got a "case and carry". However, that law was repealed 3 years later by the Legislature after it's ineffectiveness was shown (the repeal bill sponsored also by Democratic State Senator James Hargrove in 1997).

The rural democrats down in Oregon pretty much was able to get the party platform changed in regards to the right to keep and bear arms. So I don't see anything passing in the future down there, either.

Oregon and Washington have something that California does not: An RKBA provision.

[JJpdxpinkpistols]

Ok...so we are now squared away with the Pride folks. They are eagerly
awaiting our participation.

Details coming, but FIRST! A recap of the chronology of events:

We ask the city of Portland how to become a “civil organization” and how
to gets a “Chief's Exemption”
PPB say they are on vacation.
PPB say they are "investigating"
PPB then refers us to Pride, and give us the big brushoff.

Now the parts that we DIDN’T know:

During the “investigating” phase, they approached PrideNW and invited them
to meet with the city attorney, who: Told PrideNW that it was “in their
best interests” to post the event as gun free, erect metal detectors and
wand everyone coming in.

A couple of days ago, I was asked to call PrideNW's President. We played
Telephone Tag for a few days, but managed to connect yesterday. She is a
Very, very nice President. If only all Presidents were as nice and as
practical.

Her concern *is* with carrying, but from a very different perspective than
we are used to: cost and PR. Of course the City is recommending wanding
and so on, but she feels that this is both impractical (50k people per day is
a HUGE number of folks), and un-necessary. She is NOT worried that we will go off shooting someone. She *is* worried that OTHER
folks will freak out and demand that they incur this extra cost, or
withdraw their support (think the corporate sponsors that pay the lions' share of the way
for the parade and festival).

While she does indeed believe that we are legally capable of carrying, she
very politely requested that we NOT carry. Frankly, she wants to keep as
many corporate sponsors as possible, and not have to bow to pressure to
post the place *and* pay the expense of wanding/detecting everyone. She
also really, really wants us there. She believes that we have a valid
point in our message that the Consitution applies to EVERYONE regardless
of sexual orientation, and wants to see that message spread.

I agreed to pass on this recommendation to the group. Indeed I told her
that our recommendation would be that folks NOT carry, even concealed.
IMPORTANT CAVEAT: I also pointed out that of course, CHL's are allowed, as
they always have been, but that if we didn't know about it, neither would
they. Keep it well hidden, and no one will be the wiser. We are here to spread the gospel of John Browning, not antagonize
the event organizers or the city.

I also pointed out that we were still going to pursue the issue with the
City (next stop: city attorney), but that we weren't in a rush to solve
this tomorrow, nor in time for this Pride, but would like to revisit at a
future date. She agreed that this is an issue to address in the future,
and looks forward to discussing this with us.

She was also rather mindful of the blissninny nature of a lot of her
constituency, and asks us to just keep in mind that the goal of folks in
showing up to Pride is to show unity, and respect for our various diverse natures.
That includes our showing respect to sheeples who think that guns are
inherently evil. She is quite sure that this will be an attention-getter
for us, and increase our exposure among OUR consituency, but that we will
also pick up a few detractors along the way. Be prepared.

So again, our enemy turns out to be the City, NOT PrideNW. How ironic that
it turns out we have a *friend* in PrideNW, but that the city was boppin'
us on the head when our back was turned.

[JJpdxpinkpistols]

Lonnie wrote:
The rural democrats down in Oregon pretty much was able to get the party platform changed in regards to the right to keep and bear arms. So I don't see anything passing in the future down there, either.

And Burdick is busy ruining her legislative career by running (poorly) for city coucil in Portland.

Tho there is a LOT of noise on this issue on the side of the Dems, I have found the loudest to be coming from the Brady folks just trying to DROWN out other conversations that might speak against their line of thinkings.

The Dems are getting it. Slowly but surely.

[Lonnie Wilson]

So again, our enemy turns out to be the City, NOT PrideNW. How ironic that
it turns out we have a *friend* in PrideNW, but that the city was boppin'
us on the head when our back was turned.

That does not suprise me at all.

[Lonnie Wilson]

Btw, JJ, do we know if this was a written communication from the City Attorney's Office, or oral? Written would be better.

[gunsmith]

Does PP march in the SF parade?

Would the pdx city folks stop gay vets from marching with rifles?

I've seen vets in parades and rotc members with rifles?

maybe it's time for a gay rotc?:evil:

isn't that the navy?? ...kidding, I'm kidding!:neener:

Anyway good luck and good work!
I hope you can open carry next year...

wanding the entire crowd? is pdx city council insane?

[JJpdxpinkpistols]

Btw, JJ, do we know if this was a written communication from the City Attorney's Office, or oral? Written would be better.

I believe that this was oral, not written, however, this did not come directly to me, or to PinkPistols, but rather PrideNW.


when is the parade anyway?

June 18, Father’s day.

Does PP march in the SF parade?

Dunno. Never been to anything in SF. I was there once on business, but couldn’t find parking.

Would the pdx city folks stop gay vets from marching with rifles?

Probably not. I know some of the gay vets, and my experience is that they aren’t active shooters. Been there, done that is their thinking. Of course, YMMV.

I've seen vets in parades and rotc members with rifles?

Not usually real rifles, from what I have seen…they tend to be less-costing non-functioning parade rifles like these:

http://www.qmuniforms.com/moreInfoGroup.asp?T1=Q85+01&Cat=

Of course, that is only what I have *seen*…YMMV again.

maybe it's time for a gay rotc?

Ummm…that’s not allowed, remember? We aren’t citizens (that pesky 14th amendment doesn’t apply to us). Don’t ask, don’t tell usually keeps us out of ROTC.

I hope you can open carry next year...

I am torn. I would love to, but frankly, I am personally worried about inflaming folks, and making them rather upset. Portland is a very liberal city. Further, I would worry about retention inside the festival grounds themselves.

wanding the entire crowd? is pdx city council insane?

Yes, and yes, but not necessarily on THIS issue. We have some very “interesting” issues with our city council.

It is important to note that this wasn’t brought before the council, but rather is one attorney’s opinion. I don’t think it would hold up under well-funded challenge. Wanna challenge it for us? I am not well-funded.

[Tabor]

I recently joined PDXPinkPistols but I am not gay and I am not involved in the 'glbt scene.' I will say that when I marched in the anti-war parade/protest I carried just like I always do: concealed.

If it were my decision I would either march:

1. with pink pistols t-shirts and firearms concealed
or
2. with people who are legally licensed to open carrying (because a CHL DOES guarantee you the right to open carry in Oregon).

However, I think you are on questionable moral ground having people open carry thier firearms in a crowded environment like that. I would be terrified of someone getting my gun. I don't own a level II retension holster or a lanyard. If I were to have all of these things, I would still march with my openly carried firearm unloaded and rely on my backup (as many police have in crowded parade environments).

Just my thoughs.

I WOULD NOT march with toy guns or anything of the sort. It dilutes the message.

I WOULD march with t-shirts and signs (and appropriatly concealed handguns).

Take Care,

Tabor

EDITed for grammar

[gunsmith]

Never been to anything in SF. I was there once on business, but couldn’t find parking.


plenty of sidewalks all over SF:neener:

A month away, I hope you guys open carry.

[gunsmith]

so I am bumping the thread as it is almost that time of the month

[JJpdxpinkpistols]

GREAT Pride.

Saturday, several of us showed up at 9:30 to offload trucks and get things set up. We did this very quickly, and then helped others around us set up. We had several folks ask us who we were, and after being informed, shied away slightly, but no vocal “Ick” folks. Our neighbors were quite friendly and even joked with us. One gent forgot a knife to open a box, and joked that “amongs all you armed folks, one of you MUST have at least a knife.” We told him about our pledge to be unarmed then handed over the tool :)

I will let meinbruder fill you in his own words, as I was unable to be there during the afternoon:

Wow, what a day! I love to people watch and Pride definitely is a grand opportunity. I was most impressed with the range of ages, not just from the people at Pride but from the people that stopped and talked. Two ladies from Salem in their sixties were interested but thought the drive to the Western woods was a bit much. A young lady literally dragged to the booth by her father for information, she was no more than twenty.

We handed out a lot of flyers and talked to interested people, and encountered the curious but "cold" onlooker who responded "absolutely not" to an invitation of joining us for a shoot. I was warned to expect hostility from the crowd but none was evident.

I don’t think some of our folks were quite prepared for the chaos and crush of 50 thousand people into a space about the size of a football field that is the Pride booth grounds. After the parade, most folks wander down into this area, and mill around, watch shows on the stage, eat lunch, catch up with friends, visit vendors, community service groups, and generally have a good time.

Another excerpt from our own meinbruder’s mailing list followups (edited slightly for clarity):

Sunday, where do I begin? We left the pop-up, chairs, and tables in place overnight and it didn't take long to get back in business. R and A stayed behind while the rest of us went to march. The order of march changed without notice so getting everyone to the right corner was a challenge. Finally we were off and walking. A lot of very nice responses to our presence: spontaneous applause at several points and a number of people displayed thumbs up when we walked by. We had two announcements (from the grandstands along the route) and people cheered for both of them. JJ reported several people asking him to stop for photos of him in our shirt.

Highlights. One lady chased me down the block for information, it seems she has three kids to train and doesn't know where to start. A man shouted "Thank You", when I asked for what, he said, "just being here". (I heard that several times.) Another man ran out and put his arm around me and said, "Bless You, I've been looking for you for years, please tell me you're a gay gun club". He arrived at the booth about an hour later and hugged me after talking about the group. One of the things that got us noticed was Rob's Great Danes; Aslan and Blue marched with balloons and pins on the collar. They were the hit of the crowd and even Portland Police Bureau officers were asking about them.

From another of our number who marched:
People that didn't want to deal with us simply elaboratley ignored us, others were very cordial. At NO point did I feel threatened, in fact, felt so comfortable it was almost scary!

All in all, a fantastic weekend. No enemies made, many friends made, and fantastic exposure for our cause, and our group.

[gunsmith]

personally I wouldn't feel comfortable without a weapon, but it sounds as if it
was a good experience for both sides of the gun/anti gun debate

[meinbruder]

“personally I wouldn't feel comfortable without a weapon, but it sounds as if it
was a good experience for both sides of the gun/anti gun debate” –gunsmith

That is how I felt on Saturday morning. I’m not really a crowd person and tend to fold my elbow against holster when confronted by a mass of people. Once the booth was set up and I started talking to people, I went into a Zen state of relaxation. The same thing happens when shooting; jitters for the first twenty or thirty rounds and then calm.

Sunday was surreal! Once the booth was staffed I went to the assembly corner and waited for the parade to get started. A mile or so later we arrived back at the festival. People were literally shoulder-to-shoulder and stacked front to back. Retention in the situation would have been impossible. I can only imagine the stampede of people if anyone shouted “GUN!”. I’m so glad I left the hardware at home.

One thing surprised me, Portland Police Bureau had a large booth, with assistance from several agencies in the metro area. All of them visibly armed, even one deputy seen carrying around a puppy up for adoption from a local shelter. I rescued a dog from a hillbilly that day myself but really wondered if she could have responded to a pistol snatch while holding the puppy.

Interested parties were very accepting and the hoplophobes were cold; as I was on my feet for two days, the accepting folk were the ones I focused on. As we have two new members in the first two days, I consider the weekend a success. I’m hoping for a few more but will wait and see. I’m still waiting for the man who grabbed me on the parade route to apply; he will be the crown jewel of the event.

If anyone in the Portland, metro area would care to join us for a shoot; let me know. Sunday the 25th of June has just been penciled on the calendar, destination is the Timber Pit. meinbruder@yahoo.com
Mike


:evil:

[goon]

Cool.

The more people interested in firepower, the better.