[swampsniper]

3/15/2006 6:23:00 PM


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To: National and State Desks

Contact: Alan Gottlieb of the Second Amendment Foundation, 425-454-7012, Web: http://www.saf.org

BELLEVUE, Wash., March 15 /U.S. Newswire/ -- In a stunning reversal, the City of New Orleans revealed today to attorneys representing the Second Amendment Foundation and National Rifle Association that they do have a stockpile of firearms seized from private citizens in the wake of Hurricane Katrina.

The disclosure came as attorneys for both sides were preparing for a hearing in federal court on a motion filed earlier by SAF and NRA to hold the city in contempt. Plaintiffs' attorneys traveled to a location within the New Orleans city limits where they viewed more than 1,000 firearms that were being stored

http://releases.usnewswire.com/GetRelease.asp?id=62434

[AZRickD]

The last half of the press release:

“This is a very significant event,” said attorney Dan Holliday, who represents NRA and SAF in an on-going lawsuit seeking to enjoin the city from seizing privately-owned firearms.

“We’re almost in disbelief,” admitted SAF Founder Alan Gottlieb. “For months, the city has maintained it did not have any guns in its possession that had been taken from people following the hurricane. Now our attorneys have seen the proof that New Orleans was less than honest with the court.”

Under an agreement with the court, the hearing on the contempt motion has been continued for two weeks, the attorneys said. During that time, according to Holliday and fellow attorney Stephen Halbrook, the city will establish a process by which the lawful owners of those firearms can recover their guns.

“While we are stunned at this complete reversal on the city’s part,” Gottlieb said, “the important immediate issue is making sure gun owners get their property back. We’re glad that the city is going to move swiftly to make that possible, and naturally we will do whatever is necessary to make this happen.

“What happened in New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina was an outrage,” Gottlieb observed. “Equally disturbing is the fact that it apparently took a motion for contempt to force the city to admit what it had been denying for the past five months.

[Kim]

Take it to the USSC. Sue for violation of 2nd amendment rights. Maybe this could get their attention and the 2nd amendment incorporated. Oh I'm dreaming.:(

[Don't Tread On Me]

HA!

Where's that person on here who was whining and crying that the confiscations were small "here and there" incidents. That "we're blowing it out of proportion." 1,000 firearms doesn't seem like an ISOLATED incident to me. Gotta love the apologists...

Bottom line (like I've said b4), this ENDS the debate/question of whether or not authorities will carry out a confiscation order. 1,000 firearms confiscated takes quite a bit of work. I doubt they all came from 15 individuals. That's an aweful lot of arms to seize in such a short window of opportunity they had before the media caught on. It took some man power to get it done.

Also, imagine how many guns have "disappeared"...if the "gubmint" says there's 1,000 firearms, who knows how many of them have been moved, hidden, stolen (again), or taken as personal trophies by the JBT's themselves.

As a rule of thumb (from historical accounts and other evidence) whatever the JBT's claim, double or triple it.

[Robert Hairless]

Mayor C. Ray Nagin is a disgrace to the city of New Orleans and to this country. I will not contribute another penny to New Orleans relief or rebuilding efforts so long as Nagin is the city's mayor. That man is an incompetent and a liar, and any city that maintains him in office deserves whatever it gets. What a pity: New Orleans was one of my favorite places.

[Ramius]

+1

Relief efforts, like public schools, welfare, and any other tax funded project you'd care to name, aren't suffering from lack of funds, they are being corrupted by them.

It's time to stop being mugged at our own expense...

Kinda like in the movie "Brazil" where the guy gets billed for his own 'interogation'....

[beerslurpy]

I said it during the Katrina debacle and I'll say it again.

The people there were victimized that we might learn from their example and be prepared when our time comes. I would bet 90 percent of the confiscations were only possible because people trusted their government and didnt avoid them or fight back.

Reagan was right when he said "The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help. "

[Jim March]

So when are the felony perjury charges being filed again?

Sigh...

[Standing Wolf]

In other news today, New Orleans reluctantly admitted the sun rises in the east, the sky is blue, and...

[beerslurpy]

Actually yeah, when people lie in court, isnt that usually perjury?

Or were these lies told outside of court and in court they simply relied on silence and non-compliance? That would be my bet.

In either case, it is good that these pricks are finally being brought to account for what they did. Hopefully some political careers will be ended at the very least.

This is only semi-related, but Chief Compass needs to serve hard time for all the stuff he stole and the property he damaged robbing that cadillac dealership during the hurricane.

[swampsniper]

I wonder if they even have a list of who they robbed. Someone must have realized that there are too many witnesses to shut them all up. Otherwise they would just dig a hole and keep on lieing!

[engineer151515]

Prediction:

Not one - not one single confiscated firearm - will ever be returned to their rightful owner.

Even when the City looses the lawsuit, each and every one of these firearms will be ground up for scrap because records were not kept.


Say bye-bye. Very sad. Conceal, conceal, conceal.

[mr.trooper]

:fire:

[Zen21Tao]

Actually yeah, when people lie in court, isnt that usually perjury?

That is only if it is a Republican with a less than precise memory.

I would love to see Nagin charged with some type of rights violations but it would ultimately be blamed on Bush's bigotry towards blacks. :eek:

[The Freeholder]

the city will establish a process by which the lawful owners of those firearms can recover their guns

FREAKIN' EXCUSE ME?!

They ought to be forced to find the owners and politely return their guns, along with a heartfelt apology. "recover their guns" my Aunt Fanny.

[hugh damright]

Take it to the USSC. Sue for violation of 2nd amendment rights. Maybe this could get their attention and the 2nd amendment incorporated. Oh I'm dreaming.
I see no need to federalize the RKBA over this. The Louisiana Constitution says that "the right of each citizen to keep and bear arms shall not be abridged". So why not sue for violation of the Louisiana Constitution rather than the US Constitution, especially when the Second doesn't limit the States anyway?

[Helmetcase]

The 14th Amendment isn't "federalizing" anything. The problem we have with the second amendment is that it hasn't been granted the due process protections by the SCOTUS that apply to the 1st, 3rd, 4th, 5th, and other amendments. As such states are free to say "the 2A restricts the feds, but states can write their own laws", and so states can ignore the 2A essentially. LA was able to grab guns...MD is allowed to deny everyone CCW...etc.

We now have a SCOTUS that should recognize the 2A via the 14A...maybe it's time such a case got to the Supremes.

[tom barthel]

Some laws beg to be ignored. Some types of oppression begs to be resisted. Even unto death. I have less respect for the officers doing the seizures than for the officers who deserted to look after their own families. Weren't some people hanged in Germany after WW2 who were just following orders?
It is indeed sad our government only recognizes violent demonstrators. Where is the protest here? The citizens of NO really need to wake up and vote. Any nation with free elections DESERVES the government they elect. Still, I would have hidden some weapons. If I felt the need to protect my life, I would. They don't jail dead people. No wonder a large percentage of that city's population refuses to return there.

[hugh damright]

If the US had a stockpile of confiscated weapons, I would call that a Second Amendment issue. But I understand it to be the City of New Orleans that confiscated the weapons, so I think it makes a lot more sense to look to the Louisiana Bill of Rights, Article Eleven, which says:

The right of each citizen to keep and bear arms shall not be abridged, but this provision shall not prevent the passage of laws to prohibit the carrying of weapons concealed on the person.

If a person had his guns confiscated by the City of New Orleans, and he sued them for violating his rights, would his better defense be the Eleventh Article or would it be the US Second Amendment?

I'm thinking that, even if the Supreme Court of Louisiana didn't close the issue, and it was appealed to the SCOTUS, which defense would be better: (1) The Eleventh Article of the Louisiana Bill of Rights says that the right of each Citizen to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed, or (2) seek to have an activist SCOTUS use the 14th "Amendment" to incorporate i.e. federalize the Second Amendment, retroactively, and then find the City of New Orleans guilty of breaking a federal law that didn't even exist until the SCOTUS pulled it out of their ... 14th "Amendment"?:banghead:

[Henry Bowman]

especially when the Second doesn't limit the States anyway? Wrong.


I'm thinking that, even if the Supreme Court of Louisiana didn't close the issue, and it was appealed to the SCOTUS, which defense would be better: (1) The Eleventh Article of the Louisiana Bill of Rights says that the right of each Citizen to keep and bear arms shall not be infringedHowever you are absolutely correct in your legal strategery.

[Logistics]

Don't Tread On Me

>>>As a rule of thumb (from historical accounts and other evidence) whatever the JBT's claim, double or triple it.<<<


Bingo!

+1

[Sistema1927]

Wow, it is even more widespread than I imagined.

I went into New Orleans one afternoon last September (as part of my DR duties). I made sure that my Kahr PM9 was in my pocket, and an M1 carbine was sitting between the front seats of the van. There was no way that I was going to travel into that city without these weapons, and it baffles me that anyone, much less a police olfficer, would think that this type of personal protection wasn't warranted in that situation.

Every single Law Enforcement officer who confiscated weapons from otherwise law abiding citizens in New Orleans should be fired, immediately. With over 1,000 weapons seized, there ought to be a whole lot of dismissals.

[TheEgg]

This incident should reaffirm:

1) Governments lie and are not to be trusted. Even our own.

2.) Most police officers will 'just follow their orders' no matter what those orders are.

[Fred Fuller]

It was famously said by one writer oft quoted here that "The first one is expensive, the rest are free." In this case, the first one was free- the next one ought to be awfully expensive.

lpl/nc

[Baba Louie]

I wonder if anyone's Civil Rights were violated during this "taking"?

[engineer151515]

Wayne LaPierre was interviewed on 870 am radio (New Orleans) this morning. It was a great interview with calls taken from area residents.

Interesting notes from the radio show:

The NRA has a contempt of court action pending against the City for failure to return the confiscated weapons. The City has admitted to having these weapons.

Wayne noted that many of the insider tips coming to the NRA when this was happening was from LEO who were shocked at the order. Many LEO were hesitant to carry out the confiscation order. Some did not do it at all.

The actions of the Governor and City Leaders has hurt the efforts to restore the trust of the citizenship and has slowed money from Congress for the rebuild efforts.

It was agreed that the ACLU wasn't going to lift a finger to protect 2nd Amendment rights.

It was noted that minorities had a lot of weapons illegally confiscated. Wayne relayed the story were one (minority) woman said she only had a rifle and a Bible to protect herself from roving gangs and Police wanted the rifle. A heartfelt story.

Final note:

870am was running a poll asking if the confiscations were the right thing to do.

83% = no
17% = yes.

edit - updated poll numbers

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Actually law enforcement couldn't have cooperated too well with the order from city government or New Orleans hasn't come completely clean yet.

1,000 firearms is certainly not an isolated incident but it is nowhere near even a fraction of the number of firearms in New Orleans. Either the majority of law enforcement officers did not comply with the confiscation order issued by the NO Chief of Police or there are a lot more firearms stashed somewhere.

[xcheck]

1. Many stashed and not found by the cops
2. Many taken out by fleeing residents
3. Many at the bottom of the river and not counted in the 1000

[beerslurpy]

See, I told you guys the cops werent cool with this, even though they seemed to comply.

Just as a private ordered to shoot women and children may "accidentally" miss, an LEO ordered to carry out an unlawful confiscation order may "accidentally" arrange for the NRA to find out all about it.

Anyone have a link to audio of the lapierre interview? The old black lady with the bible and the rifle makes for a very sympathetic victim.

[Creeping Incrementalism]

the city will establish a process by which the lawful owners of those firearms can recover their guns


FREAKIN' EXCUSE ME?!

They ought to be forced to find the owners and politely return their guns, along with a heartfelt apology. "recover their guns" my Aunt Fanny.
Since I doubt the police kept any records of their unlawful seziures:

They should do a trace on all firearms in their inventory with serial numbers, then find the owners and return the property. For pre-'68 guns without serial numbers or where the trace ends with someone who obviously wasn't a New Orleans resident at the time of the hurricane, they should just keep them in storage. When someone puts in a claim of the same make, model, caliber, and finish as a firearm in their inventory, that person gets the gun.

On another note, anyone remember the discussions right before this incident on whether police would ever enforce a mass gun confiscation on a populace? As I recall, there were a few posters, (seemed like mostly law enforcement, who swore it would never happen.

[Herself]

Creeping, does LA even keep track of serial numbers? Has Louisiana even got gun registration?

--Herself

[Lupinus]

Actually law enforcement couldn't have cooperated too well with the order from city government or New Orleans hasn't come completely clean yet.

1,000 firearms is certainly not an isolated incident but it is nowhere near even a fraction of the number of firearms in New Orleans. Either the majority of law enforcement officers did not comply with the confiscation order issued by the NO Chief of Police or there are a lot more firearms stashed somewhere.
No it isn't a fraction but you are missing a few key points-

1- They say 1000, the real number is likly much higher. With as much stupidity as NO has shown I laugh at the thought they have shown every gun taken. Guns stolen, misplaced, or simply hid elsewhere don't fall into the 1,000 they have admitted too.

2- Many people left, doubtless many took their weapons with them.

3- Not all weapons were found. Some people likly gave up a few for the sake of compliance so they would move along and had a few hid for when they left. That and they didn't make it into every house or get to every neighborhood.

4- The actual confiscations didn't go on forever it was shut down rather quickly. 1,000 guns found in that time frame is a large number, the higher actual count they aren't saying anything about is a much larger number.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Those are all reasonable guesses Lupinus; but they still remain guesses until we have more information (much like my own guess).

Since NRA appears to be pursuing the matter and they appear to have the help of law enforcement inside New Orleans to point out where the bodies are hidden, I imagine we will eventually learn more information along these lines.

[Mongo the Mutterer]

Just a rhetorical question. What is the standard in Louisiana for felony theft? Over $50? over $500?

It would be lovely to see the state AG file, oh lemmee see...... a 500 count indictment against Nagin and the Police Chief.

Then the feds could pile on with civil rights prosecutions.....

Just a dream, silly me...:p

[WT]

ABC News video on September 8 showed National Guard troops going house-to-house, smashing through doors, searching for residents, and confiscating guns.

Many of the troops were clearly conflicted by their orders. “It is surreal,” said one member of the Oklahoma National Guard who was going door-to-door in New Orleans. “You never expect to do this in your own country.”

Yet that Oklahoma National Guardsman continued with his work of confiscating guns.

How many of those guns are now in Oklahoma? How many guns did the California Highway Patrolmen take home?

The SS would be proud.

[engineer151515]

Update from the radio station's website:




Chris Miller/WWL Reporter

3/16/06

The city of New Orleans says it will cooperate with a federal court order to try and locate confiscated firearms and their rightful owners, and return the weapons to them. This happened after the National Rifle Association had prepared to ask a federal judge to hold Mayor Ray Nagin and New Orleans Police Superintendent Warren Riley in contempt of court.

In early September, as the chaos from Hurricane Katrina reigned, then-police chief Eddie Compass declared all firearms in the city would be seized, and no civilians would be allowed to possess guns. The National Rifle Association was furious.

"We actually went down to New Orleans and interviewed individuals about police coming into their homes and demanding their legally owned firearms," said NRA spokeswoman Autumn Fogg.

According to reports, police say they only took weapons from people they arrested, or abandoned houses. Fogg says they spoke to people who told a different story: "They actually went door to door, demanding the firearms from lawful citizens."

Fogg says they went to court in late September 2005, and a federal judge ordered the city to return the guns. But the NRA says for six months, nothing happened.

Now the NRA says their attorneys and city attorneys have agreed to work together for the next two weeks to locate the seized firearms. City officials said in court that there were other law enforcement agencies and

National Guard soldiers were working at checkpoints where some guns were seized, and those agencies may know where the guns have been stored.

WWL First News contacted Mayor Ray Nagin's office for the city's comment on the story, but has not received a reply.


BTW - Poll results have shifted
Gun confiscation
80% - no, wrong thing to do
20% - yes, right thing to do

[dav]

You are all assuming here -
It says they viewed a location where 1,000 guns were stored.
It DOES NOT say they were all Katrina confiscation guns.
It may have been the cities central evidence repository for all we know. It may have been the police armory.
While it is clearly IMPLIED that these are all Katrina guns, it DOES NOT say so.

[swampsniper]

Are you a member of the CHP, or something?
If you are, dig a hole, and hunker down, the Eagle is hungry!:fire:

[ArmedAmerican]

NEW ORLEANS, Dec. 14 /U.S. Newswire/ -- A New Orleans woman is recovering from surgery this week from injuries resulting from when she was roughed-up by authorities who forced her to leave her home a week after Hurricane Katrina. Patricia Konie, 58, has filed a Federal lawsuit over the injuries and other violations of civil rights.
"My client was severely injured in a needless removal from her home," stated attorney Ashton O'Dwyer. "Patricia Konie had food, plenty of water, and a roof over her head. The police who illegally entered her home and imposed their will on a frail, middle-aged female should have been out apprehending armed, male looters instead."
Konie was greeting a reporter and photographer from a San Francisco TV station and a journalist from the London Times when police unexpectedly entered her home. When she refused to leave as ordered, they confiscated a firearm used for defense and according to Konie, "slammed" her to the ground, both displacing and fracturing her left shoulder.
After remaining in custody for several hours without charges being filed against her by authorities, she was flown alone to South Carolina where she remained for more than a month before returning to her native New Orleans.
A Federal lawsuit was filed claiming that authorities assaulted and knocked her to the ground when she refused to leave her New Orleans home on September 7th, 2005. Konie also alleges numerous civil rights violations including assault and battery by police in her suit against several Louisiana and California State Police officers who took her into custody. She also alleges authorities violated her Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms.
"Hurricane Katrina was horrible, but there is no excuse for what happened to this nice lady", said O'Dwyer. "Police caused her months of pain and suffering and she still faces months of physical therapy. This suit will hold the individuals responsible for their misdeeds."
Konie had her surgery early on Monday morning, December 12. She is still recovering in the hospital, and lives alone on a limited budget of Social Security benefits. She is devastated by what happened and has not had her seized property returned.
"Sadly, Patricia Konie is only one of many examples of police going too far in the wake of Hurricane Katrina," said O'Dwyer. "Already one court has ruled against their strong-arm tactics, and we look forward to our day in court."
http://www.usnewswire.com/ :fire:

Armed American
State of Orygun
------------------------------------------
"[The Constitution preserves] the advantage of being armed which Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation....[where] the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms."
James Madison

[swampsniper]

Patricia, where can I send money in your cause?

[Molon Labe]

I am confident the "haul" has already been picked through by local LEOs. The quality guns will never be returned; they are currently residing in gun safes in the personal residents of a handful of LEOs. Only the junk guns will be returned. :(

[Kim]

This makes me mad as HE&#. Where is the NYT, Washington Post, MSM any cabel station ranting about this abuse of the peoples Civil Liberties. I mean if they the government looked at one library record of one citizen in a government library using government property there would be a liberal outcry, marches in the streets, Cities would pass proclaimations aganist such acts and asking for the impeachement of the mayor and a independent investigation to be done.. Oh Sorry the liberals really don't care about a little thing like gun confiscation and the liberal media is silent.....................................................................................:cuss: :cuss: :cuss: :cuss: :cuss: :cuss: :cuss: :D

[NCP24]

The 14th Amendment isn't "federalizing" anything. The problem we have with the second amendment is that it hasn't been granted the due process protections by the SCOTUS that apply to the 1st, 3rd, 4th, 5th, and other amendments. As such states are free to say "the 2A restricts the feds, but states can write their own laws", and so states can ignore the 2A essentially. LA was able to grab guns...MD is allowed to deny everyone CCW...etc.

We now have a SCOTUS that should recognize the 2A via the 14A...maybe it's time such a case got to the Supremes.“At the very least” let’s hope this will be a cornerstone case to the 2A by way of 14A Due Process Clause. I have a strong feeling if it reaches Garwood and Demoss via 5th Circuit Court of Appeals its very possible. I’m just not sure if NOW is the best time to go before the SCOTUS.

[RevDisk]

Now, now, I'm sure a mere thousand cases could be considered "isolated incidents". I mean, sure, TWO thousand cases could be considered massive violations of Constitutional (state and federal), criminal and civil law.

Besides, I'm sure that middle aged lady had it coming. I mean, she undernumbered the police! They HAD to break her hip to carry out their orders! She might have had secret ninja skills that would have allowed her to somehow disarm and severely injure the noble police officers carrying out isolated incidents!

(Ok, I have the sarcasm out of my system, but I still think the police's excuse will be even more loonie than my sarcastic comments.)

It's sad statement about our country when the police are more dangerous to the citizens than the criminals... Sigh.


It is US law that illegal orders are not to be followed, and that one can be punished for committing illegal acts even when ordered to do so. I somehow have a feeling no soldiers or police officers will be forced to pay for their crimes. Yea, it's nice that certain soldiers and cops 'felt really bad'. Gee, that makes the situation all better. Yea, it's noble they tipped off folks about their crimes. Gee, that makes the situation peachy keen.

[waterhouse]

Creeping, does LA even keep track of serial numbers? Has Louisiana even got gun registration?

--Herself

They don't as a state, but depending on how well the written records from gun shops survived the flooding, many guns can be traced to their owners by serial number.

Let's say you have a Remington 870 in storage. The ATF (or possibly FBI, I'm not really sure who makes the call) can call Remington. Remington checks their records and finds out where they sent that serial numbered gun. Let's say they sent it to a distributor. So then the distributor is called, and they find out what dealer bought the gun. Then they go to the dealer and check the bound book and 4473s, and they can tell who bought the gun from the shop, as well as their address.

This doesn't work if the gun has been sold through face to face transactions, but it might get some of the guns back to their owners.

[Don't Tread On Me]

Let's say you have a Remington 870 in storage. The ATF (or possibly FBI, I'm not really sure who makes the call) can call Remington. Remington checks their records and finds out where they sent that serial numbered gun. Let's say they sent it to a distributor. So then the distributor is called, and they find out what dealer bought the gun. Then they go to the dealer and check the bound book and 4473s, and they can tell who bought the gun from the shop, as well as their address.


Ah, the beauty of back-door gun registration.


Someday they might not get them all, but that's ok - they'll get most of them. That's what counts.

[Old Fuff]

I suspect that at least some of the guns (and maybe much more then that) pre-date the 1968 GCA, and a BATF&E search won't work.

What will really be interesting is to see how the federal court reacts to this, and if they do a number on the officials named in the NRA's suit. Also the door is now open for people who claim to have lost guns to bring a class-action suit. Given what has happened the City would likely seek an out of court settlement - which when it was over could prove to be very expensive. :evil:

[AZRickD]

I'm sure a mere thousand cases could be considered "isolated incidents".

I remember Hillary saying the very same thing when those stolen, er, misplaced FBI files were found in her office. Er, no, those were the Rose Law firm billing records. The FBI files were found elsewhere in the WhiteHouse.

Doesn't matter. The 1,000 FBI files represent a fraction of all of the FBI files, and I am sure that most of those 1,000 FBI files were supposed to be at the WhiteHouse.

Rick