Pismo Shooting. What would YOU do?

[PistolPackin'Papa]

By now, everyone has probably heard about the Pismo Beach, CA. shooting.
I have a vacation spot over there and have my grandchildren in that particular Denney's at least once or twice, everytime we go there. This $*#T^$&*$ person, started shooting as soon as he came in the door. So. WHAT WOULD YOU DO? :confused:

You are standing by the cash register paying your bill, you have 5 grandchildren, ages 4 through 11 all around you and your wife, in various stages of Papa, can I have some candy? to Grandma, can I sit by you next?? and they are strewn between you, at the register, and grandma at the door trying to get everyone out and into the car. Once I get to Pismo, I usually don't pack, becaue usually it is the most peaceful place in the world. THAT'S CHANGED!!! Please give me 2 scenarios. one for packing, and one for not packing. (Believe me, from now on, I WILL be packing.) Oh, my grandkids are gunnies. They love to go shooting with PAPA. 2 of them are dang good shots too.:)

PPP

[Mauserguy]

Well, since CCWs are almost impossible to get in California, especially in LA, I would say that I would quickly repent my sins and hope for the best.
Mauserguy

[crofrog]

"He who goes unarmed in paradise had better be sure that that is where he is." -- James Thurber

[torpid]

As a guy living here without an "elite" CCW, I'm stuck staying within the law to be a good citizen.

I guess I'd likely die like a good citizen with my lil' CA legal can of pepper spray thinking, "well, my .45 in my safe at home sure would be handy here. But at least I'm being an upstandin-**BLAM**...".

(Was 300ft from that Denny's just the other day. Moving to a place where I can legally carry is still in my future, but it's coming...)

.

[highdesert]

Granted CA is a difficult state for CCW, but in many of the desert and sierra counties it's possible. My county (Kern) is "practically shall issue."

Since we're talking strategies and tactics here, the original question was a good one. Assuming you're carrying, what would you do?

[highdesert]

Here's the link to the story.

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-pismo16mar16,1,1010613.story?coll=la-headlines-california&ctrack=1&cset=true

Gunman Opens Fire on Denny's Patrons; 3 Dead
Two others are hurt as bullets fly at the Pismo Beach restaurant. The shooter, described as a transient, kills himself. His motive is unclear.
By Steve Chawkins, Times Staff Writer
March 16, 2006

PISMO BEACH, Calif. — Two men were shot to death and a couple were injured Wednesday when a 60-year-old man burst into a Denny's restaurant — a gun in each hand — and fired at lunchtime customers before killing himself.

Police got a 911 call from a "frantic" patron in the restaurant off the 101 Freeway on Five Cities Drive just after noon, Pismo Beach Police Chief Joe Cortez said. The first officer arrived within two minutes and found customers fleeing, he said.

"It was pretty chaotic," said Pismo Police Cmdr. Jeff Norton.

The officers entered to find two men dead on the floor and one dead in a booth, all within about seven paces of the entrance, Cortez said.

Authorities said Frank Velasquez, 65, of Oceano and Harold Hatley, 73, of Grover Beach were shot to death.

The injured man and woman, a married couple, were not named. They were shot in the lower body and treated at Arroyo Grande Community Hospital, where they were in good condition, Cortez said.

Police identified the shooter as Lawrence Edward Woods, 60, a transient who had been living out of his car along the Central Coast for some time. He died from a self-inflicted gunshot wound, authorities said.

Woods' last known address was in San Luis Obispo, Cortez said. Woods had a criminal record, he said, but he declined to be more specific.

Police later recovered Woods' car, a 1980s-vintage Plymouth Alliance, from the restaurant parking lot.

Police said Woods had entered the Denny's with a semiautomatic handgun in one hand and a revolver in the other and immediately started firing both weapons.

Witnesses gave officers conflicting reports about whether Woods spoke as he fired, but all agreed that he revealed little of his motives, Cortez said.

Paul Woodward, 46, of Paso Robles said Velasquez was his stepfather. His mother — Velasquez's wife, Lavina — told him that she was with her husband and their great-granddaughter Alexis Woodward, 5, when Woods walked in.

Woodward said his mother gave him this account:

The gunman walked over to their table, aimed low, and shot Velasquez in the left thigh. Then he said to her: "Do you want to know why this is happening?"

When she said yes, he told her: "It's all Mid-State Bank's fault." Then he raised the gun to his head and shot himself, Woodward said.

The bullet fired at Velasquez punctured a major artery in his leg and he bled to death, Woodward said.

Cortez said Woods may have been prompted by an "economic motive" but gave no further details.

He said police have no evidence that Woods was connected to the restaurant, its employees or any of its customers. The act had the marks of "a random act of violence," Cortez said.

Norton said the events unfolded quickly. "It was over in a matter of seconds," he said. A security camera captured the entire episode on videotape.

Pismo Beach is a cliff-side beach town of 8,600 people, north of Santa Barbara and south of San Luis Obispo. It is a close-knit, quiet community with virtually no crime, said Mayor Mary Ann Reiss.

"This is very shocking," she said. "We just do not have incidents of this nature — ever, ever…. The city manager called me about 12:45 p.m., and I couldn't even believe it."

A small crowd surrounded the restaurant as police investigated the scene late into the afternoon Wednesday. A bullet hole the size of a silver dollar was visible in a side window.

Cody Ferraro, 19, of Arroyo Grande was driving past as the shooting occurred. He said he could hear the shots from his car — "quite a few of them" — and pulled over to see people pouring out of the restaurant.

"They were saying, 'Oh my God! Oh my God!' " he said.

[IllHunter]

leave the house with your affairs in order and having made your peace with your maker, trust that the PCH will not cave in under your car and that no crazie will open fire 7 feet from your brood. If however, time allows you the privlelege of observing his or her departure from reality, precisely place the contents of your magazine or cylinder into that persons anatomy as quickly as possible.

[Thefabulousfink]

Since the guy came in shooting, hesitation could cost you your life.

Draw weapon, turn and fire until the threat is ended.

Don't turn then draw, you do not want to attract attention until you have your weapon out and ready.

Some people might say to try and get you grandkids to safety first, but the time you take to do that could result in the BG shooting you first. Better to drop the BG as quickly as possible and hope everyone is OK than to get shot hearding your 5 grandkids to safety and then have the BG shoot them if he is so inclined.

[PistolPackin'Papa]

Draw first, then turn and shoot. Makes sense, thanks. Was wondering, if just one person had pluged the wound in the old man's leg that was eating with his great grand daughter, or if someone had some of that quick coagulating powder in a first aid kit, the poor guy might still be with us. Of course, if just one person had been armed, then maybe just the BG would be dead. that is even better yet.

PPP

[PistolPackin'Papa]

Draw first, then turn and shoot. Makes sense, thanks. Was wondering, if just one person had pluged the wound in the old man's leg that was eating with his great grand daughter, or if someone had some of that quick coagulating powder in a first aid kit, the poor guy might still be with us. Of course, if just one person had been armed, then maybe just the BG would be dead. that is even better yet.

PPP

[Gordon]

I do have a CCW, but I wonder if I put a shooter down what the hand ringing progressive outcry would be? This is NOT AZ or AR.:uhoh:

[PistolPackin'Papa]

Here is Tulare Co., CCWs are not too bad as yet. Permits are easier through the County Sheriff's office. Some of the cities are not quite so generous, but you can always get it through the County since they are the chief LEO. There are more gunnies in the Central San Joaquin than a lot of people think. Just can't tell anybody. As to a shooting like Pismo, most folks around my town would probably say "Praise the Lord and Pass the Ammunition."
PPP

[NineseveN]

Packing:
Draw, shoot until the threat has ended. You won't have time to get your loved ones to safety, and even if you do, he's the one at the door with the guns, you're not getting out unless he likes you.

Not packing:
Charge, leg tackle, and start stabbin with the trusty ol' pocket knife. He has two guns, can't really wrestle them both off of him. You could try to roll him over as you clip him so he lands on his front. You're probably not going to make it out of that without a gunshot wound or even several, but then again, some folks that just stood there didn't make it without the holes either. It's not about being a hero, it's about protecting your own, even at your own expense.

Of course, one might just as easily freeze up and be a victim depsite intending otherwise, hard to tell until you're there.

[Manedwolf]

Not packing:
Charge, leg tackle, and start stabbin with the trusty ol' pocket knife. He has two guns, can't really wrestle them both off of him.

:confused:

Absolutely not. I'd throw stuff at him first. Preferably heavy. Metal napkin dispensers thrown like a football, or best, a chair picked up in an arc and thrown hard at them if it's a heavy one, overhead if it's a light one. Don't try to throw anything that has a cord, like a cash register, because if the cord hangs up or is secured, it's useless and you're now the primary target.

Someone can't aim at you if a chair is flying and hitting them, it's unwieldly, hard to block, and tends to get entangled with someone it hits. Keep throwing chairs as fast as you can, let other people tackle them, or if they drop the gun, tackle them.

Charging someone with a gun is a good way to get shot in the chest or gut at pointblank range. Just fling chairs at them.

I've always thought that an essential component of situational awareness is always being aware of what objects in your immediate vicinity could be improvised weapons. When you don't have a gun, there's always everyday objects of decent mass propelled with sufficient velocity against an attacker's head. :)

[NineseveN]

Mannedwolf, try that with a friend who is a decent shot with a paintball gun at the distances we're talking about. The results might surprise you.

By the time you pick up a chair, you've got 5 to COM. Napkin dispenser? Good luck. Worst-case scenario for you, you miss, he shoots and you're still not close to stopping the threat. Most likely case, you throw he shoots near the same time, he got hit with a small object traveling at 5-10 feet per second, you got hit with a much smaller object traveling at 900 feet per second. Best case, you get lucky, you grab and hit him with whatever, it incapacitates him and he doesn't get a shot off. That's a lot of luck.

At that distance, the knife is better than the gun. You'll actually close distance faster with the knife than you will be able to pick up, throw and strike them with an object.

Try it sometime, it might work out differently than you think. But hey, it's up to you. You're better off running away than trying to pick up and throw a chair at them unless their back is to you.

Hot coffee? Maybe, but the point is, if you don't stop him from being able to shoot, you have not neutralized the threat. Charging him to the ground at least severely narrows the radius that he can fire and limits the number of available targets.


So you've hit them with something, they're mad at you and they still have the guns...now what?

[psychophipps]

Well, I probably would have gotten myself shot, to honest. I'm a big guy in the first place so a big guy starting a Hackathorn Rip while stepping in front of his tall, beautiful wife isn't exactly the innocuous action on the planet.

Hell, I would certainly shoot the big, aggressive guy if I was the shooter,
Mark(psycho)Phipps( HAHAHA! )

[30-06 lover]

In CA we may not get CCWs, but I still carry a benchmade. If he was facing away from me or distracted, I'd charge, grab, slice throat, take gun, shoot. Crazy? Yes, but hey he is an active shooter and I'm going to die anyway. Might as well go down with honor and have a chance than take a few rounds just sitting there.

[Navy87Guy]

Was wondering, if just one person had pluged the wound in the old man's leg that was eating with his great grand daughter, or if someone had some of that quick coagulating powder in a first aid kit, the poor guy might still be with us.

From the sounds of it, his femoral artery was severed. Depending on where the bullet entered, a tourniquet was probably the only thing that could have saved him. If it was near his hip, even that may not have been possible. It seems like there might have been time...since the perp killed himself right after shooting him, so the threat was gone. But I'm not sure how many people without medical training of some sort would recognize the danger and know what to do. I don't think the coagulating agent would have helped a severed artery.

The sad part is that the killer probably didn't even mean to kill him...otherwise he would have shot him somewhere other than the leg. It proves that the human body is a delicate and tricky thing.

My heart goes out to all the victims and their families....

Jim

[444]

That occured Friday morning:

I ate in that restauant yesterday morning (Thursday). I was down there for two of the World Baseball Classic games.
If you see that picture of the two cops crouched down outside the restraunt, they are leaning against a paper machine that I bought an LA Times out of yesterday morning and sat in that restraunt reading about the Pismo Denny's shooting. I had a discussion with the guys I was with about how important it is to be armed at all times because of all the nuts out there.

My understanding is that you CAN get a CCW in Orange County.

[RS3RS]

Unless he had the gun trained on, or very close to, me, and so long as I wasn't a great distance away, I'd go for the tackle. If I can completely close in on him before he gets a good shot off at me, he's mine. If not, then, at least I'll die an honorable death and will have bought some time for my family to get away or for someone else to step in and do something.

Reminds me of someone's sig on here: "It's better to die on your feet than live on your knees." - or something along those lines.

Of course, all of this is hypothetical. It's hard to say exactly what you would or wouldn't do without actually being there and knowing the situation - plus the fact that people act differently while under the effects of adrenaline makes it hard to say if you'd actually do what you think you would without being there.

edit: All of this is assuming I wasn't CCWing. If so, it's draw and fire off as many .45 rounds in his direction as possible.

[half elf]

My family has been taught that the sound of gunfire is the sign that it is time to get down and suck carpet until told by me to get up. I am realatively invisible to most people, and easy to ignore so I hopefully won't draw attention while I pull my CCW out of the Desanti's Gunny-Sack where it rides. I lived 2 blocks from a Shoney's in Anniston Al when a group tried to hold it up back in 1993. A veteran droppped 1 in the resturant, 1 in the parking lot, and they caught 1 in Birmingham getting a bullet removed.
I have taught my kids not to play out front, and if Daddy hears them screaming outside I will come out armed, so My kids don't play real loud, come to think about it they dont play well with others either.

[red headed stranger]

My understanding is that you CAN get a CCW in Orange County.

I lived in Orange County for a number of years. It is definitely doable to get a CCW there. The current sheriff is RKBA friendly as well.