NO CCW Zone - What Do You Do?

[sm]

True Situation.

Permisson to share.

College Campus, a NO CCW Zone, Female Staff, with her 2 y/o "Birthday" Boy, heading to her vehicle off to the side of Staff Parking and a Big Old Mangy Dog takes interest in the Boy and What he has in hands.

All you have is a Knife clipped to your pocket, half empty styrofoam cup with coffee, and backpack on weak side shoulder.

Nobody else can be seen on this islolated part of the lot , Security is Armed Security, but none around you know of.

Yes I was the guy , and all parties safe.

Mull it over and kick it around. I'll share what I did later on.

Hint: Remember Firearms are only one tool in the toolbox - not the only tool one should have.

:)

Steve

[BedPimp]

Immediately give the dog some commands in a firm, authoritative tone. "Sit!", "Stay!", etc. While doing that, proceed with the following.

Option 1:
If the coffee is still hot, hit the dog in the face with it while putting yourself between the dog and the others.

Option 2:
Swing bookbag around and insert it into dogs mouth while charging it.

Option 3:
If you are not in a position to get between the dog and the others, distract the dog with a loud noise, a kick to the rear, or hot coffee.

This is assuming the dog is charging aggressively, and not just a curious puppy.

I, personally, would not bring a knife to a dog fight. I've wrestled with my rottie enough to learn that she would probably win if I didn't have both hands free.

[Lee Lapin]

Send mom around to the other side of closest parked car while scooping up the kid and putting him on top of same with the idea of getting him out of reach of the dog and breaking contact between him and the dog. That gives mom a chance to get him off the car from the other side away from the dog and beat feet to her own car carrying the kid.

Then entertain the dog as necessary to keep it distracted from the departing mom and kid.

Getting the kid to drop whatever the dog has taken an interest in might work or might not, the kid might not want to let go of his birthday cake/hot dog/hamburger/whatever and the dog might think there's still more where that came from and pursue the source of the goodies after gulping the first one. Backpack in both hands should be a good persuader for 'herding' the dog away and give it something to bite if it wants to attack, in that case the knife comes into use.

The Professor and I habitually carry an Asp Street Defender (moved up from the Key Defender to the bigger model this year) on our keyrings, means there's always a shot of OC handy. Be happy to have one sent to you if you want... http://www.selfdefenseproducts.com/defender.htm , or if you're picky we can send you the Key Defenders we retired and get you a couple of fresh refills.

lpl/nc

[half elf]

Most dogs will respond to a loud, male voice and aggressive posture. If You can keep its attention on You while the family retreats then that is good(assuming male), and when they are out of line advance while commanding SIT!, GO!, and anything else that comes to mind. Most dogs do not speek/understand english as well as bnody language, so become the Alpha Male in his eye's and he will cower, Indiviual Mileage will vary of course. I have cowed small packs of dogs while riding my bycycle by chasing them, and use of a slingshot.

[BedPimp]

Lee,

Thanks for your link. I've seen the refills for these all over the place recently, but nobody has been able to tell me what they were actually used in.

[sm]

I made the B-Day Boy Cry...I mean that deep down where you quit breathing for a second or three and let loose louder - kind of Cry.

Not my best Smooth Adult to Child interaction. :o

BedPimp and Lee - very good replies and very close.

I eased up while talking in a smooth pleasant voice and addressed the Child and Dog [okay some of the words a child is not supposed to hear I said to the dog...]

Mom had her hand full balancing all she had, and I suggest she ease packages onto a pickup truck hood . I eased up next to and a bit in front of child and dog...heavy backpack on weak side between dog myself and child.

In a calm smiling voice I said I was a friend of his mom's ( she whispered it was okay ) and needed to see his new toy and can I see his B-Day Cupcake.

I set these on the ground and picked the child up and set him into the bed of a Pickup Truck .

Childs eyes got big, and the lip got pouty. All hell broke loose with the crying when the dog took a healthy crunch and broke the Silly Putty. Then ran off with the Carrot Cake Cup-Cake.

I would have sighed a relief - instead my chest was heavy about the Child , I felt really bad and the louder he got - the worse I felt. Not even mom's hugs helped and I'm sure I was not one of his mom's better friends at that moment.

Of course I used a cloth to toss the remnants of the Silly Putty away, knowing full well anything a kid has at that age gets near - ends up in their mouth, and that dog did not seem the healthiest.

So...words of apology only go so far, a mom can only explain so much, and talking to daddy after the bad passed and in the safety of the SUV on cellphone and instead of sharing how much fun all of mom's friends were for surprising him...some old mean student ruins it for him.

"Hi B-Day kids Dad...yes it has been awhile since we last spoke...Sorry about ...."

Understand there were more Cup-Cakes, seems that "one" was special.

That was me at the Grocery Store Bakery Counter letting a Child pick out another Special Something for his B-Day. Ended up with 3, I remember 2 year old math 1 = 3.

Toy section had another Silly Putty just like the one he "had", and that 2 year old math again means Mini sized Lincoln Logs , and a Tinker Toy's with key rings.

Mom was impressed, these are great for kids when traveling or waiting rooms or wherever. Just a few pcs , easy to keep up and fun to play with.

All was forgiven , eyes dried, Mom's friend is not so bad afterall and it is okay to give another guy a hug.


Yes you guys were very close, especially without anymore information given.

That was intentional. Too often folks think they will have sorts of equipment and all sorts of Plans ahead of time.

Does not always work that way. For instance in my State ASP is NOT legal for me to use...last I checked into it , training and reserved for LEO and other Security persons. NOT a civilian and pretty sure not a civilian on a College campus.

[Pilot]

I have never had a dog charge me if I was running at it and screaming in a loud voice. You are bigger and their flight instincts kick in.

[BedPimp]

Thanks Steve. I really appreciate your lessons in lateral thinking.

[Lee Lapin]

Oh.

Wouldn't want to get you in trouble with the local gendarmerie, oh no perish the thought. We'll just keep all that nasty stuff limited so only fully trained PRO FESH NULS can get to it then. Wouldn't want the commoners able to defend themselves now would we?

Dang, seems strange to find a southern state that's weirder about self defense than NC. Civvies not allowed to have pepper spray, huh? Wow.

Too bad, this is a good low profile way to carry OC at the ready, thumb on safety, ready to flip it off and 'present arms' and it looks as though you were just carrying your keys. Stuff works pretty good too, I know a couple of guys at one of those classified facilities on fuertobraggo who sprayed themselves accidentally with it when it was first issued to them some years ago. One turned the couch he was sitting on over backwards, the other ran through an interior drywall wall when he missed the door, headed for the closest water.

lpl/nc

[HankB]

Good answers already given . . . but I have a question about this:College Campus, a NO CCW Zone, Is this by college rule or by actual state law? It makes a difference . . . at least, to me.

[Biker]

After OC hit the scene years ago, I decided to get some for my wife, but I wanted to make sure that it was effective first, so I had one of my Bros give me a shot of the stuff in the face in a C Store parking lot.
It was....horrible.
I think I'd rather take a steel-toed boot to the twins than go through that again.
Biker

[PCGS65]

by Biker After OC hit the scene years ago, I decided to get some for my wife, but I wanted to make sure that it was effective first, so I had one of my Bros give me a shot of the stuff in the face in a C Store parking lot.
It was....horrible.
I think I'd rather take a steel-toed boot to the twins than go through that again.

Biker are you a masochist!
I think I would have asked around or did a google first.:uhoh:

[Biker]

Well, I'd experienced CS and CN gas before and while it kinda sucked, it wouldn't really stop me from continuing an attack if I was determined. So when I heard all the hype about OC, I figured I'd give it the 'Biker' test before I told my wife to trust it.
Good Lord, a three year old girl with a sharp popsickle stick coulda taken me out.
It was...reeeaaaaal bad.
Biker

[John Hicks]

I have a friend who is immune to pepper spray. The police officer doing the training kept asking him if he got sprayed. He was like "I think so . . . "

Apparently 1% or so of the population is immune . . . so your mileage may vary.

I got hit with an downwind blast when testing an old bottle to see if it still worked. That was unpleasant enough (although not as bad as the time I rubbed my eyes after chopping habenero peppers -- that really sucked)

Sadly, most of the time the only thing that would be effective is a gun (against person, dog, zombie) and we can't always have one. Sounds like you handled the situation okay if everyone came out alright . . .

[warriorsociologist]

Every so often (uaually 1/year or at least when changing duty stations) while serving the the Marines I had to go through OC qual (I was a CID agent, but all military police / 58xx's had to get qualled). This involved getting "hit" full in the face, eyes, open (or do it all again) with Mil-grade OC/CS and then making it through a combat course with guys trying to disarm me and such. We all had to do this to be qualified to carry the stuff so we knew what it would do to others and how twe each would react to it if it were every turned on us. Personally, iI found that it DID burn like hell...but it only really effects me after about 30 seconds...and then lasts (for me) for about 45 mins. During that first 30 seconds though, I am generally pretty in control.

My point is that full-face OC/CS does suck....but it's not "magic." We ALL eventually made it through the course before carrying. Also, we usually did this in the summer months because our training NCO was a bastard. :evil: SO, you KNOW it burned.

Anyway, that's my .02.

I like spray and my wife and I carry it from time to time. Just be mindful of it's limitations. FWIW, when I used to bike alot, I carried a 1:4 ammonia & water mix in one of my water bottles for dgs that gave chase. It worked just fine without f-ing up their noses for good.

[Farnham]

Several friends of mine went to Marine Security Guard school and part of the training was to get a face full of pepper spray. Most continue to assert they would much prefer to be shot.

Good thinking, sm, most of us woulda got bit trying to manhandle that dog. I'd mention something about "old age and treachery" but I don't wanna offend. :evil:

S/F

Farnham

[Biker]

Part of my problem, I'm sure, was all the facial hair along with my long hair on my head. I just couldn't seem to get it all out. I could swear that I had a couple of grams of the stuff stuck in my 'stache for days after the...event.
Biker

[sm]

HankB

State Law, No CCW on School Campus.

[tellner]

<Rant tone="more in sorrow than anger">
Back in the day, when OC was new and all the FBI tests showed that it was 100% effective. According to people who know, the guy who ran the protocol accepted a bribe to make it look better. He served several years for that. Later, Phil Messina - http://modernwarrior.com - started doing tests. In quite literally hundreds of trials he found that people who were motivated or had a goal could carry it out pretty much without exception after getting honked with the best stuff on the market. Around that time the FTC decided that the claims about it were bogus and forced MSI Mace to write a letter saying so and recant their advertising claims that it would stop violent attackers.

I've been sprayed a couple times in training, on a bet, and by accident during an experimental self defense class. Every time it was the special "Police only, not for sale to mere civilians, SHU expressed in scientific notation" stuff. Every single time I got motivated :rolleyes: , acquired a goal (usually getting to the water fountain) and carried it out. Honestly it was less painful than chopping habaneros without gloves. And then going to the restroom :eek: I'm not exceptionally resistant to capsicum.

What's it good for? Torturing tied up protestors as happened in Redwood National Forest a few years back. "Non-compliant non-violent suspects" i.e. Bubba doesn't want to get in the car and you need a way of stuffing him in there without beating him up. Crowd control; I've seen it do wonders in a rowdy bar.

It's like shooting a bear. If the bear is eating fish and isn't particularly concerned with you it's a lot easier than if the bear has decided the world would be a better place if you weren't in it.
</Rant>

I'd suggest a combination of other tools and strategies. A really good short term self defense class would be an excellent start. Steel- or plastic-capped safety shoes come in pumps, high heels, sneakers, oxfords and a many other styles. A student reads books. There are lead-weighted leather book weights suitable for holding open big volumes. The St. John's College bookstore has a really nice one filled with fine shot. The standard bookweight looks a little too much like a flat sap for comfort. Nobody looks twice at a Spyderco knife these days. Flashlights are always useful for crossing campus after late nights in the library.

Others may be left as an exercise for the reader.

[sm]

Sometimes I carry a cane, don't need one, except when "selective limping" sets in. I do have 14-16 scars from double knee surgery some years ago, knees are fine, just sometimes selective limping set in, sometimes even in NON NO CCW zones. :)

I get older and I notice a few things. One, I really do not want to do some of the physical stuff I once did. Okay I simply cannot.

I kinda like this avoid trouble in the first place, leave when trouble shows up - coupled with Work smarter not harder bit

Another is, and this first was realized when I broke the antenna off a vehicle because I had just left a NO CCW bldg and three against me...I don't care anymore. I got mean, ugly, and forget any rules - there was and has only been one rule to speak of - I am going to survive. I will kick below the belt, hit a person with glasses , and I do not care. A line deep inside gets crossed and I can be real ugly.

Vehicle antenna's work quite well, they take knives out of hands and they make one BG run like hell " dat man is nuts!" and the other two - got distance and ran too. And this distance -difficult- as I had ...err I kept coming at 'em and making that distance very hard to gain. I did not need to get boxed in or be flanked ...I wanted "up that-a-way " so I could evade...just needed to get them out of the way first. I was pissed, really pissed that my right to self protection was denied - again.

Glass bottles of Coke taste better. They also scare the life out of a wino who appears out of shadows - that points a shank at you , says he will slice your throat unless you give money...and you break that glass with weak hand and strong is near a 1911 concealed...I am easing lateral, glass breaks and he hauls butt.

Ayoob speaks of tossing money, I have tossed a few ones, smokes and lighter to two in a stairwell...I left. But my "don't care" is - by golly I am a sheepdog and sometimes sheepdogs get pissed. Gonna use best judgement, but don't mean I have to abide by any "fight nice rules".

Maybe my Mentors & Elders shared more than I thought. That adage about a old man beating a younger punk? Always felt that way even when I was young about anyone, any age different than me... Age is just a number, just now chronologically it better fits me.

I paid for busted antenna. I also replaced a dented trash can even tho the store owner said I didn't have to. You know if one acts plumb nuts against a BG with a pipe, throw a trash can at him, and he decided you just might be nuts, it gets a bigger dent when you pick it up again and really sling it at him.

I shot a lot of skeet, I can hit a moving target, all you have to do is focus on leading edge and, come up from behind, match speed and angles, "pass through" keep swinging to get lead - slap that trigger errr...sling trash can , and follow thru. He said he was gonna run at us this time and hurt us with that pipe, I am allergic to pipes being applied to my person, sorta figured store owner was too.

"You hit 'em"
"Yeah, and you still got the bank deposit, My gun does not spend the night in a police station, no paperdrill, and I much prefer the idea you buying me supper over a cold baloney sandwich and bad coffee downtown at the Police station".

Well as one Mentor & Elder put it :

It ain't the stuff - it is knowing how and the gumption to use what you got for stuff

How much you lead a BG with a trash can? Varies between trash can slingers - all persons percieve lead different. Best recall I lead him about "> <" much.

Use Enough Determination

[gunsmith]

doggone it?:neener:

[hurrakane212]

Along the lines of being prepared/not using a ccw as our only weapon/ being able to improvise, I'd like to add that how one dresses is important as well. I wear clothing loose enough to allow a free range of motion but not enough to get caught on things. I avoid anything around my neck (just tonight my wife fell and her scarf caught on a fence and she friction burned her neck) and unless it's boiling hot, I wear Danner combat boots (often steel toed). When I buy clothes (even dress shoes and suits) I ask myself "could I run in this? could I fight efficently hand to hand if I had to in this?" Pants are a big issue for me since I have naturally muscular thighs (28" around) and most jeans don't allow me to lift my knee past waist level without ripping the crotch out.
~Nathan

[SSN Vet]

you da man!!!

[Matthew Courtney]

Shoot the dog. Having the gun is justified because having it was necessary to prevent great bodily injury or death to an innocent.

[trickyasafox]

Hank B

by me its both. i go to school in NYC and have no real chance of getting CCW down here, and there is a no weapons policy on campus. serioulsy, we can't even get steak knives in the caf. for some it might make a difference, but expulsion is enough to motivate me to follow along with the norm:(

[mbt2001]

This is easy. You use the BAT ANTI-DOG ATTACK SPRAY and then knock it out with the BAT-A-WRANG.....

No need to bother the police

[scooterthegreat]

I am a Residential Real Estate Appraiser. I have had run ins with a variety of animals. The most interesting would have been the Llamas and miniature goats - The only thing I have been bitten by that left a mark was an africian grey who was flirting and a 6 year old girl... (another story for another time)...

I am in Wisconsin so we don't have concealed carry and with all the stuff I carry to do my job, I wouldn't have time to drop it and get any pepper spary out. I am thusly left with thicker, loose fitting jeans and dressier style steel toed hiking boots, and a ton of common sense and respect for all animals and small children.

However, I was reading the police blotter and arrest report in our paper a while ago and it would seem that the owner of a house I was just recently in was arrested and charged with assulting a woman. Although I have a black belt, I am reconcidering carrying some sort of pepper spray. I still think that in most scenarios I wouldn't have time to use it...

[Sam]

SM,
You done fine except for going into a NO CCW Zone in the first place.

Sam

[sm]

:)
I am an older returning College Student.

I have had semesters where I took only online classes, and therefore my being on Campus not required after paperdrills, buying textbooks, and such.

One of my biggest gripes is - While there are various NO CCW zones, a per our Laws here, such as Fed Bldgs, State Bldgs, School campuses...

Folks 1) do have legitimate business in these areas. 2) A person has to arrive and depart from these areas. 3) what if something occurs such as car trouble in commuting - or needing to run errands, go shopping before arriving, during lunch, or departing?

I have some classmates , that commute quite a distance, some also work early/graveyard shifts ( meaning get off work at 7 am) and others that work strange hours as well.

This semester I have to be on campus, I commute ~ 23 miles one way. I am on campus from early in the day - last class does not let out until 9pm. The sign clearly states NO CCW , as does state law.

This is why NO CCW angers me.

What if your daughter, your wife , attending / being on staff? They too have to arrive and depart, they too have errands and such to attend to as well.

Car-jacking at lunch would be a bummer now wouldn't it?

My former College, had a number of students sitting out in cars on a nice day , studying, eating lunch get robbed and car-jacked. One young lady was approached by two, she lost most of her blouse, she did not get sexually assaulted...a hamburger is a piss poor weapon in a situation like that.

" I got scared, pissed, then really mad, I just kept moving, hitting, kicking, yelling and scratching until I could run like hell to _____ and get attention and help. All I wanted to do was enjoy the nice day, eat my hamburger, read my material for next class and take a break from being inside academia".

Dogs are one thing, it is the two legged "dogs" that can read and know state regs that use said regs against the law abiding.

[Sam]

Understand your point SM. I don't want an "education provided by any such establishment and neither does anyone in my family. Maybe no one should. Maybe you should find an more enlightened institution or perhaps fire the Son of a female canine that made their rules.

Sam

[entropy]

Re OC, there is a much higher % of the pop. than 1% that is 'immune'...certain ethnic groups put this stuff in their food like salt and pepper, and are less affected by it...... I had a friend try to zap me with my OC once, the fan in his living room oscillated back his way and blew it into his face! :D :p :evil: I am only affected by it in the lungs, as I love hot food, but have respiratory problems.:(

[Oldskoolfan]

I myself do not feel safe carrying on campus due to the high rate of crime on campus. If I was a woman I would feel a lot worse due to the fact that rapes are much higher on college campuses. I know that a lot of these are date rapes but the occasional bogey man does lurk here. I cant wait to move to a CCW state.

[Aquaholic]

Scooterthegreat said:

I am in Wisconsin so we don't have concealed carry and with all the stuff I carry to do my job, I wouldn't have time to drop it and get any pepper spary out. >>>>>Although I have a black belt, I am reconcidering carrying some sort of pepper spray.

Scooter, I believe pepper spray is illegal in WI, and I know for a fact stun guns of any type are. Maybe you should get a carry perm-- oh, wait.. That's against the law too. :barf:

[Fire4Effect]

how about hit the dog with a TASER... dog stops attack, mom is greatful, kid is entertained by dancing dog and poop flying everywhere...

[hurrakane212]

All you have is a Knife clipped to your pocket, half empty styrofoam cup with coffee, and backpack on weak side shoulder.

The posts about what you would do if you had OC spray, a shotgun, a taser (though that one was funny), or an Abrahms tank are irrelavant to the question. The question is "what do you do with what you've got? Not what you wish you had.
That said, I believe dressing for mobility/effectiveness is crucial for daily defense. Sturdy footwear and semi-loose comfortable clothing all the way~Nathan